One thing I did consider was the possibility of GWF having more of an armor pen type ability bonus against higher AC mobs, and rogues suffering a penalty against heavily armored enemies, thus making GWF the big damage types for aoeing everyone, rogues getting more reduction against "non-soft" type opponents, while retaining their superiority against single-target foes.
Thoughts on that? To restate; buff GWF's damage against more heavily armored foes or penalize rogues against heavily armored foes. Add more heavily armored foes to game.
Doens't matter aslong rogues can kill me so easily just by using DS and its bb..
Doens't matter aslong rogues can kill me so easily just by using DS and its bb..
I'm focused on addressing PvE not PvP. It's too early to focus on PvP balance in my eyes. I'd rather devs focus on PvE balance and hit PvP afterwards.
Also, there are no real premades out there at the highest competition levels like in other games, no real in-depth way to measure balance, and no PvP-specific gear or rewards that aren't worse than PvE gear.
I'm focused on addressing PvE not PvP. It's too early to focus on PvP balance in my eyes. I'd rather devs focus on PvE balance and hit PvP afterwards.
Also, there are no real premades out there at the highest competition levels like in other games, no real in-depth way to measure balance, and no PvP-specific gear or rewards that aren't worse than PvE gear.
Best way is to get pvp gear for some classes then go dungeons (t2)
Guardian Fighter? Well he is defending and hitting things. No big damage but that’s not really his thing and everyone knows it. He can’t seem to get aggro and that is his thing, but it’s not something he is doing wrong. The class is just botched that way. If we imagine that fixed then he would be doing fine even though the wipe would have to start with him. Poor guy, sorry ‘bout that.
The only class I have not extensively played at the moment. However minus the broken aggro mechanics, it sounds alot like how things worked in some classic MMOs. Tanking has always faced some difficulties in MMOS and I've seen some GF's do some impressive damage. Could be worse, I recall games where my tank/defender type character was given the equivalent of the cleric debuff and my damage was cut by 40% while the threat was left intact or doubled. But there may actually be to many mobs for a GF as is to tank an entire room even if aggro was fixed.
Cleric? Well he is healing people and laying down some interesting AOE damage. His heals aren’t enough to sustain people in the real thick of things but if the GF could get some aggro, the rest of the party would be doing great. Unfortunately we all know about the aggro bug and its love of sweet cleric flesh. In this model the cleric gets trampled and eaten immediately but he was doing just exactly what he was supposed to be doing and in absence of the bug would have been keeping the DPS toons rolling like a donut vender at the policeman’s ball.
DC's have some healing ability, but their true role is mitigating damage taken. Also I certainly don't put out impressive DPS numbers. My job is mostly to support a team by tossing on Astral Seal (increasing life steal), mitigate damage taken (Astral Shield), provide a burst of health/knockback enemies (Sunburst), add some DPS while healing (Forgemasters Flame), or throw down buffing/shielding (Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor). Currently our most active powers draw way to much aggro and so it's hard to actually build up divine power to use to cause most of the healing effects. It also leads to DC's tossing on thousands of points worth of defense in an effort to stay alive at the expense of other stats.
Control wizard? He is doing pretty well. The control part of his name is really only any good for minions but that counts. He still does great damage and even though he dies ignominiously in this wipe, there is no doubt that he is doing what he is supposed to be doing and if the cleric could have stayed in the realm of the living, the CW could have been pumping out damage from the back while whistling Ride of the Valkyrie with impunity pausing only occasionally for a cackle of pure vicious laughter.
The CW should be focusing on adds, either gathering them to be burnt down or pushing them away from his best friend the DC. He is not about doing OMG DPS from the back. My CW may inflict a good amount of damage, but I know I'm always control first. Dealing with mobs is my job as a CW, not whacking at the boss.
Rogue? He is a killing machine, a murder factory in snazzy boots. Sure being melee has its limitations but with the heals coming and all the mobs chewing on either the GF or the cleric it’s just a barrel-bound duck shoot in here. He can see the wipe coming but that just makes him want to kill more and faster. Take as many with you as you can, death and blades are the coins of the rogue, and he wants to be generous. Of all the deaths his is the most frustrating because he could have taken them, he could have taken them all!
As a TR my job is split between burning down elite adds and the boss. And trust me when I start blazing the powers, mobs notice me. Even on simple epic dungeons like Cragmire mobs will go out of their way to come after me. Heck they like me more than the DC! I've literally trailed half the mobs around the mad dragon while the DC trails the other half. And I'm certainly more squishy then the DC is. This is why CW's & GWF's are so important.
The GWF? Well, no one is very certain what he is doing. He is zipping around to stay out of the red circles and hitting lots of mobs. If cleric aggro is ever fixed he will be eating facefulls of hate but at the moment he just gets to swing away and no one really notices. The Rogue is blazing down bosses and swatting minions on accident, the CW is dropping implosion bombs and shooting lazers and snatching up hapless mini-bosses , the cleric is giving out the green and calling down the fire and even the GF is huddled down taking his appointed beating.
But what is the GWF doing? Debuffing? Crowd Control? Damage? Is there any function that someone else isn’t doing better, much, much better? In what way would a party be better with a GWF than without one? Damage is what he has to work with. Calling his knock-down utility is like calling the GF’s charge a movement power. His choices are, hit them, hit them again and hit them some more. And the final quotient will be not that he was doing his job but did it matter.
A GWF is there to kill the $*!% adds. That's it. They turn them into mulch. They can takes some hits (with support) and scythe through the legions of adds like they are butter. The only adds that give a GWF pause are Elites. But some synergy with the CW and TR can fix this. Since the CW gathers the mobs for the GWF to kill and the TR works on the big ones that give GWF's issues. A GWF can work right now and even different kinds of AoE focused GWF's are competitive.
THe bigger problem is that these classes were meant to work togther, but most PuG's couldn't give a rats *** about synergy or team play. They just think about DPS and 'We need to kill the boss faster!'. It's sad and sort of pathetic. Sure some things are broken like aggro/threat, but they can work even now if people would just help each other out and not live in their own little 'must DPS more!' world.
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hito00Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
Since I've played each of the classes you talk of, let's break things down a bit...
A GWF is there to kill the $*!% adds. That's it. They turn them into mulch. They can takes some hits (with support) and scythe threw the legions of adds like they are butter. The only adds that give a GWF pause are Elites. But some synergy with the CW and TR can fix this. Since the CW gathers the mobs for the GWF to kill and the TR works on the big ones that give GWF's issues. A GWF can work right now and even different kinds of AoE focused GWF's are competitive.
THe bigger problem is that these classes were meant to work togther, but most PuG's couldn't give a rats *** about synergy or team play. They just think about DPS and 'We need to kill the boss faster!'. It's sad and sort of pathetic. Sure some things are broken like aggro/threat, but they can work even now if people would just help each other out and not live in their own little 'must DPS more!' world.
Completely agree with you that's why i've been talking about changing people mentality. They are just obsessed with the window panel score of who did the most dps and if they are first they are mostly to think "huh i'm the best i'm first !" etc...
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gruntpyreMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
DPS meters are all well and good, and arguing that its really just a l2p issue with people not recognizing the contributions of others, but DPS aside, groups still will avoid taking guardians/gwfs because they don't bring enough utility to offset not bringing the other classes.
Comments
Doens't matter aslong rogues can kill me so easily just by using DS and its bb..
I'm focused on addressing PvE not PvP. It's too early to focus on PvP balance in my eyes. I'd rather devs focus on PvE balance and hit PvP afterwards.
Also, there are no real premades out there at the highest competition levels like in other games, no real in-depth way to measure balance, and no PvP-specific gear or rewards that aren't worse than PvE gear.
Best way is to get pvp gear for some classes then go dungeons (t2)
The only class I have not extensively played at the moment. However minus the broken aggro mechanics, it sounds alot like how things worked in some classic MMOs. Tanking has always faced some difficulties in MMOS and I've seen some GF's do some impressive damage. Could be worse, I recall games where my tank/defender type character was given the equivalent of the cleric debuff and my damage was cut by 40% while the threat was left intact or doubled. But there may actually be to many mobs for a GF as is to tank an entire room even if aggro was fixed.
DC's have some healing ability, but their true role is mitigating damage taken. Also I certainly don't put out impressive DPS numbers. My job is mostly to support a team by tossing on Astral Seal (increasing life steal), mitigate damage taken (Astral Shield), provide a burst of health/knockback enemies (Sunburst), add some DPS while healing (Forgemasters Flame), or throw down buffing/shielding (Hallowed Ground/Divine Armor). Currently our most active powers draw way to much aggro and so it's hard to actually build up divine power to use to cause most of the healing effects. It also leads to DC's tossing on thousands of points worth of defense in an effort to stay alive at the expense of other stats.
The CW should be focusing on adds, either gathering them to be burnt down or pushing them away from his best friend the DC. He is not about doing OMG DPS from the back. My CW may inflict a good amount of damage, but I know I'm always control first. Dealing with mobs is my job as a CW, not whacking at the boss.
As a TR my job is split between burning down elite adds and the boss. And trust me when I start blazing the powers, mobs notice me. Even on simple epic dungeons like Cragmire mobs will go out of their way to come after me. Heck they like me more than the DC! I've literally trailed half the mobs around the mad dragon while the DC trails the other half. And I'm certainly more squishy then the DC is. This is why CW's & GWF's are so important.
A GWF is there to kill the $*!% adds. That's it. They turn them into mulch. They can takes some hits (with support) and scythe through the legions of adds like they are butter. The only adds that give a GWF pause are Elites. But some synergy with the CW and TR can fix this. Since the CW gathers the mobs for the GWF to kill and the TR works on the big ones that give GWF's issues. A GWF can work right now and even different kinds of AoE focused GWF's are competitive.
THe bigger problem is that these classes were meant to work togther, but most PuG's couldn't give a rats *** about synergy or team play. They just think about DPS and 'We need to kill the boss faster!'. It's sad and sort of pathetic. Sure some things are broken like aggro/threat, but they can work even now if people would just help each other out and not live in their own little 'must DPS more!' world.
Completely agree with you that's why i've been talking about changing people mentality. They are just obsessed with the window panel score of who did the most dps and if they are first they are mostly to think "huh i'm the best i'm first !" etc...