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Clerics, I apologize
altrelo
Member Posts: 16 Arc User
I joined the game about 4 days ago or so and my first character is a 1/2 elf cleric. I saw forums saying how bad Righteousness is and how bad it is to solo with a cleric and I thought ya'll were exaggerating. I was soloed for all dungeons except 2 with a rogue, I had ok damage and I could do well in boss fight since while it might take more than the 2 dungeons I did with a rogue I survived pretty well. I did the last dungeons in Helm's Hold and Mad Dragon I saw how wrong I was. I had all the mobs, I needed to heal everyone, look out for the rogues moving all over and the CC. I tried using Sunburst to heal but the radius was too little to hear everyone. I then had to heal, get Divine Power to use Forgemaster's and expand the radius of Sunburst all while trying to kite mobs. Dodging didn't work so well since I was always in the middle of casting or stunned.
I heard some Cleric say that their pots are always on cooldown and I can finally see that. The dungeon before Mad Dragon, to get the quest, I failed at the boss fight once but then I started using pots every time it came off cool down I was able to kill her. I had to kill the mobs since they went after my pocket Cleric and I saw how well that goes a few dungeons before but I was able to finish. Self-healing is the same as dying in a boss fight. So it came down to kill mobs in order to build up Action Points for Firestorm or try to make my Searing Light hit the mobs and the boss.
Even before getting to the quest if I pull 2 of the casters from the Explorer Area I had a difficult time trying to keep them from attract other mobs, keeping my pocket alive and to do DPS.
Now my built is not optimal since I just started playing ~4 days ago but I've been playing battle clerics for 4 or so years. I like healing but I also try to balance dps with it but it seems now I either have to respec full DPS as I am going to do or go healbot and try to find a group for leveling.
Does every class have this difficulty of juggling so many things at once? If I wasn't as stubborn I would just roll a rogue but I will shell out the dollars to respec. MMO's already have such low population of healers, in DDO sometimes you had to go through all the healers online and send them tells since getting a healer was so rare.
I heard some Cleric say that their pots are always on cooldown and I can finally see that. The dungeon before Mad Dragon, to get the quest, I failed at the boss fight once but then I started using pots every time it came off cool down I was able to kill her. I had to kill the mobs since they went after my pocket Cleric and I saw how well that goes a few dungeons before but I was able to finish. Self-healing is the same as dying in a boss fight. So it came down to kill mobs in order to build up Action Points for Firestorm or try to make my Searing Light hit the mobs and the boss.
Even before getting to the quest if I pull 2 of the casters from the Explorer Area I had a difficult time trying to keep them from attract other mobs, keeping my pocket alive and to do DPS.
Now my built is not optimal since I just started playing ~4 days ago but I've been playing battle clerics for 4 or so years. I like healing but I also try to balance dps with it but it seems now I either have to respec full DPS as I am going to do or go healbot and try to find a group for leveling.
Does every class have this difficulty of juggling so many things at once? If I wasn't as stubborn I would just roll a rogue but I will shell out the dollars to respec. MMO's already have such low population of healers, in DDO sometimes you had to go through all the healers online and send them tells since getting a healer was so rare.
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Now I have been playing cleric too, full DPS cleric as you know everyone is playing cleric these days. And it is the first class where I get a surplus of potions. So many that I continue to drink underleveld potions as I level up in high level areas. I'm just waiting for my first Mad dragon dungeon atm as Cleric but so Far all my dungeons and skirmish runs have placed me #1 damage dealer everytime. One third of the damage I Deal is about how much healing I bring to the party. And some times Rogues damage is a full 30% less than my own. They are usually very close.
Clerics is probably the easiest class to solo with. If any of the other classes could do better I would call broken on them.
Without Righteousness Clerics would be broken.
But yes the aggro thing needs to be fixed either for the cleric, or most likley a buff to Both fighter classes.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?182621-Sticky-gt-Master-List-of-Class-Builds-lt
Lots of good solid info in there, compiled by NWO cleric players.
What level are you now?
I leveled 1 to 30s, re rolled, 1 to 40s, re rolled, then to 50 and finally did a respec once I'd fully settled in on a final build.
I personally think it depends how you want to build your character; but I can tell you right now that Astral Shield and either Hallowed Ground or Divine Armor are, for all practical purposes, required powers in dungeons and skirmishes ASAP to get.
Recovery is important, and any feat that builds divinity. You will need to be able to keep the buffs up and running as near to 100% as possible. 100% is certainly possible, but don't know if all builds can do that or not.
Oh, and I play a cleric on DDO also
EDIT - there's tons more we do than cast Astral Shield, other class players just don't know about it all
There is not a "lot more". Use Sunburst and some generic skill. If you are kiting which I do frequently, you use sunburst when you have stamina to dodge, then burst, then dodge, rinse wash repeat.
That being said, it's ****ing stupid. With all the mmos out there the fact that every single boss fight is a frickin' horde swarm demonstrates a ridiculous amount of laziness on the part of the devs.
Seriously there are so many MMOs out there with boss fights and mechanisms galore and the best these guys could come up with his "whaa?? I know let's add some more mobs!!" to EVERY SINGLE FIGHT.
I love NWNO; I have put a lot of time into it and even bought the 60 buck pack to support it, but they need to stop being lazy.
If there's no 'a lot more' for you, then you're doing something wrong. 1 button healbot?
Boss fights need to be designed differently to keep the "action MMO" flavor though the "massive add rush" gimmick is used too often in NWO fights. Toss in a bunch of unavoidable group damage and you've got WoW Sunwell on every fight.
Zardoz007 I would love to know what build you're using. I'm looking for a solo build just for PvE leveling, but it's very hard to find one, because most are focused on healing or end game dungeons.
Are you following one of the guides on the forum? Could you tell me which one?
Thanks muchly.
Funny you should say that because the boss encounters in this game are some of the dullest I've ever come across. The adds don't make them action oriented, they just make them tedious.
I honestly don't get the complaints and absolutely disagree with the opinion righteousness negatively effects me.
Even my own uncle complained at that but it seriously makes me bash my head against a wall because I do not ever use potions outside of boss fights even with righteousness.
It's simply not a problem keeping yourself healed outside of boss rooms.
I do have a fair amount of burst damage but the speed at which I clear is, especially at higher levels, abysmal but that's honestly just because Devoted Clerics basic attacks can only be built to have so much damage. They simply naturally do less damage but the more potential damage they have the more they actually heal.
It's slow...
But you'll sustain through everything.
guardian fighter with a cleric companion I call bull**** on that bigtime, mine does not even take damage I never use potions
Yeah, it's slow damage but once you get AS you can gather 2-3 pulls and end the fight with full health.
And this is why even after the multitudes of player complaints nothing will ever be done, even if it is one the TOP fixes requested on your co-moderator's list. If it is up to the moderators to bring player requested fixes to the devs attention, then thier personal biases will negate the fact that the multitude of players are declaring the class and the rightousness self debuff broken and unbalanced.
Thank goodness it's not up to us to bring it to Developer attention.
I regularly noticed (right up until AS) that in every single dungeon I could happily keep everyone topped up to 100% health right up to the boss, while constantly running at around 50-60% health myself, because splashback from sunburst/HW spam just wasn't enough for self-heal. When you have to skoosh right into a mass of monsters just so you can benefit from some forgemasters ticks, you might have a problem. :P
where did you read that lie?
I want this class in NW.
Edit: to save you the effort of trawling through: page 24, at the bottom.
I haven't tested it myself, mind.
klixan,
It shouldn't be that hard to just start speccing for healing as you level. Levelling as a DC is more or less faceroll, as long as you don't indulge in too many massive overpulls. I used a CW companion, and kept him topped off, as I was levelling. It worked out nicely. Generally, even with the pesky Righteousness debuff, I could hold my own against a couple of packs of mobs, if I kept some self-healing and the like coming in.
Some specifics..
Foresight is a nice thing to have slotted. Don't be shy about throwing Astral Seal on everything that you're fighting, or a divine Forgemaster's Flame when you get it. Single player dungeon bosses usually telegraph their big attacks, so even if there's no red stuff, it's easy to spot, get into a rhythm and avoid damage from them- running behind them while they're winding up works hilariously well. Slotting a DoT and kiting is useful for some bosses, just keep stuff ticking on them and they will soon fall. Use the tokens that you get in questing areas to buy level-appropriate blues and don't be shy about putting some small enchantments in them, you'll see a fair few drop anyway.
Don't overpull or asspull. Don't be ashamed to run away. Lots of buff pots drop as you're levelling- you might as well use them as you'll get better ones later anyway.
Use your cooldowns, they're there for a reason. Invoke when you can. Wear sunscreen.
Hope that helps.
Edit: I should have mentioned that speccing for healing later is partly a game of survivability anyway, given the broken threat system- so there is a lot of synergy with your wish for an easy time when levelling solo.
Also don't get those who say "You are doing it wrong" and that's it, they don't contribute with anything else, So how do YOU do it then?
Second day without getting into the game. I miss it, But every time I remember what I have to go through as a cleric or even my CW...It's like a cold gaming shower....
Of course, it's the boss rooms that everyone is complaining about righteousness on. I'd take a 60% heal debuff solo, if it was lessened when I really needed it (grouping). I can absolutely destroy content while soloing, using no pots. Hell, I can kill epic spider with one cleric and not use any pots. Doesn't matter - a self healing debuff on the only healer in the game - that makes people not want to play a healer, and that's the real problem. Just because you and I don't have an issue with it, doesn't mean it's not an issue.
I mean, I'm the one that started the Righteousness thread, and I'm actually fine with it for most fights. I still feel it makes people that play cleric get to level 40 something and then quit because they can't heal themselves, AS A HEALER.
I'm not sure if companions share the righteousness debuff or not, but if not, then yeah: righteousness doesn't seem to apply to AS heals, at least.
Will test more later if anyone cares.
Correct. Read the tooltip. AS grants Regeneration, it doesn't Heal. Righteousness doesn't impact Regeneration.
That get's into the bigger heart of the matter.
That's the first thing my uncle said. "Oh my god I'm a healer who can't heal myself as effectively! That makes no sense."
I could just be spoiled by my own experiences. I played the Cleric in Alpha when it was first being designed (I believe I can say that much without violating any remaining NDA) and righteousness didn't exist. I never dropped from full hp. Not once. Not ever.
The cleric's heals are actually designed with an output high enough to heal four other people effectively. Righteousness is a necessary mechanic because clerics are supposed to channel divinity and not be divine themselves and I promise you that is what righteousness is there to prevent.
That's not to say it couldn't be adjusted but let's not fool that as the true problem.
A cleric who can heal himself the amount that he can heal 4 other people simutaneously is a problem which won't go away without righteousness. People might view the connotation negatively but that mechanic can't go away without the cleric being a god.
With that being said outside of dungeon boss rooms it's not a problem basically ever. If you're doing solo content the progress is slow going but steady and potionless. So obviously the clerics can heal themselves in a solo environment. Right?
Okay so the issue is when groups form but more specifically in 5 man boss fights. Clerics draw aggro. That makes perfect logical sense and without pressure on the cleric to keep them from healing the rest of the team the dungeons would be far too easy. I hope this still remains pretty much inarguable.
So this entire post is to try to systematically direct the attention to the actual problem:
Clerics either draw too much aggro.
Or Guardian Fighter don't draw enough.
Or the challenge bar/number of adds are too high.
Or perhaps the problem is with dungeon mechanics overall as the number one strategy in every dungeon is "keep the cleric alive by killing the mobs" rather than some other tactical set-up. *shrugs and smiles*
The issue isn't with the amount of healing the cleric does to himself or others but rather with how much aggro clerics can be expected to effectively withstand without becoming pinatas or making the dungeon too easy.
And remember, healing 4 people for X isn't the same as "healing yourself for 4 times X", you still only heal yourself for the exact same amount you heal everyone else...except no, no you don't, you heal yourself for only 60% of the amount you heal each other person. So (ZOMG WTF scenario) if everyone is on 10 HP and you fling out a sunburst, now everyone is on...say, 1010 HP, and you're on 610.
In essence, everyone is either saying "it's a problem" or "it's annoying, but I can work around it". No-one is saying "it's perfect and I would totally stop playing anything else BUT a DC if they fixed it, because I would just be an amazing unkillable god with a mediocre damage output (as opposed to a killable god with a mediocre damage output, I guess)"
It might be managable, but managable is not the same as good/balanced/working.
First character was a GWF, Meh ( didnt get past 20 before rerolling)
Second was Rogue (OP as hell but not my playstyle)
Third was Cleric, and instantly fell in love. (also my first 60)
How refreshing to not stand there and save mana for heals. Not only are you not required to sit there, you are REQUIRED to actually dps!!
I soloed the entire game until 60, with either the Dire wolf or tank companion.
My advice on stats, go tanky, get forgemasters flame. Win
I agree wholeheartedly with this. The debuff is there to prevent clerics from being *too* powerful solo and pvp, and only becomes an issue when you're forced to tank everything in a 5-man group. With good groups (mainly good wizards), it's not a problem whatsoever. Thus an aggro fix or a reduction in adds would likely solve the complaint about righteousness, as well as make pugging less painful.