Regarding the difficulty choice, I think you're approaching it the wrong way. Instead of despawning encounters, you should spawn additional ones if they choose hard fights. Blocking an encounter from appearing with a 'appears when' always works. Another idea would be patrols, though make sure the player understands this. Avoid the patrols, or fight them and alert the rest of the enemy.
You can also do encounter waves instead of straight stacking. I have 6 encounters on the final fight in Return to the Crypt, but it's in waves: 2x 3x 1x. And in the first 'wave' you can pull one at a time if you're smart about it, and the second wave has zombies so you can take down half the group easily (appear animation takes forever). Though I am considering re-balancing the 3x wave, the archers are a bit much at 31+, and I could really use an encounter elsewhere.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I toughed one out last night, died 4 times, so my injuries were just plain silly. Of course like every foundry I have done to date, the end item was not usable by me class.
I don't mind dying if it's due to my stupidity. If I run headlong around a corner into a mess that's my fault, but when you need to kill 2 summoning mobs, plus 4 sub-boss types, plus 4-8 others, and all the summoned adds...yeah I'm a GWF, I can handle a load of mobs, but really what was the thought process behind that. Esp. when it was advertized as doable solo. I finished and just zero starred it, no comment. First one I have done that with. The story had potential, although it felt like something a young inexperienced DM might make, (which might explain the silly mass of Drow at the end), and seeing the phrase "Yeah that was Awesome" come from an Elf character was a bit sad.
Short version: I'm not here to die while testing your dungeon.
edit: Another thing to note, which may be as important as not stacking, is placement, esp. when mobs spawn from triggers. I had to pick up a book in a closet in a dungeon, which triggered a few mobs right in the closet doorway. I couldn't move. I basically was pinned into a corner while my companion and I were cut down. The adventure was good, so I finished, but be aware of potential issues like that as well as a foundry designer. Give us a little room to breathe.
So how hard is too hard? Is stacking two easy encounters (if you want a large horde of kobolds or goblins for example) too much? And as there is no real boss monsters, how about stacking a hard solo encounter with easy or standard 'bodyguards' to make a challenging end fight?
So how hard is too hard? Is stacking two easy encounters (if you want a large horde of kobolds or goblins for example) too much? And as there is no real boss monsters, how about stacking a hard solo encounter with easy or standard 'bodyguards' to make a challenging end fight?
Neither of those two is likely to cause much trouble if used in moderation. I do both myself. The thing you need to keep in mind is that the apparent danger of such encounters will vary a lot based on both the class and the level. A Trickster Rogue will have more problems with a bunch of minions than with a solo monster, while a Control Wizard will most likely be the opposite. As long as you don't overdo this kind of thing, the potion loss for getting into too tough encounters for your class/level won't be too frustrating. Just don't ever fall into the temptation of stacking hard encounters on top of each other.
The only solo built foundry mission that i have enjoyed so far have been the crypt of Carnage and the Draconis Pub. The Crypt of Carnage i used a total of two 1000 hp potions didn't bother with my bigger potions. The draconis pub i used 15 potions and no deaths. I actually did the draconis pub with a friend and it was just as fun with only 1 use of a potion on my part. In both adventures i played my GWF. I play with a healing companion. Most solo foundry quests i have played i have found trivial and not very enjoyable. With solo Adventures if i see a wall of text i do not even read it. Short and concise is a much better imo. I personally tell my story in books you can click on and read if one desires. They give background and more detail if a player wishes to read them. Optional content for those who enjoy a story.
I have been more inmpressed with the few group oriented foundry quest out there and all mine will be molded in that way with a warning which recommends a number of players to play them. The Cragsteep Crypt is probably my favorite foundry quest i have had the pleasure to play. My friend and I really enjoyed it we both had healing companions.
stacked encounters are a must for group content. And i believe there a must in solo content to make them challenging enough for players like myself. In solo adventures they should be used very carefully but there a must.
was level 21 for draconis pub and 27 for crypt of carnage. Cragsteep Crypt we were 24.
stacked encounters are a must for group content. And i believe there a must in solo content to make them challenging enough for players like myself. In solo adventures they should be used very carefully but there a must.
As much as I love input, your impressions are useless to us if you don't provide your level. Your post would be put in a much different light if you're level 60 than if you're level 20, for example.
I know I don't represent the norm here, but I strongly dislike fighting stacked encounters because the combat engine isn't robust enough. I'm just mashing left click over and over again with occasional use of three other attacks, and it doesn't get more interesting the longer I do it!
I do enjoy grouping though, and stacked encounters are the only way to make something work for groups.
I find the "difficulty sliders" to be a fantastic compromise. I'll just choose easy every time I'm soloing and I hope your easy is ACTUALLY easy.
Neither of those two is likely to cause much trouble if used in moderation. I do both myself. The thing you need to keep in mind is that the apparent danger of such encounters will vary a lot based on both the class and the level. A Trickster Rogue will have more problems with a bunch of minions than with a solo monster, while a Control Wizard will most likely be the opposite. As long as you don't overdo this kind of thing, the potion loss for getting into too tough encounters for your class/level won't be too frustrating. Just don't ever fall into the temptation of stacking hard encounters on top of each other.
Hard is such a bad word in this case as well. An example is the torture chamber in my quest NW-DQF4T7QYH. Tilt ran it with a lvl 46 Guardian Warrior and had a difficult time with it and actually asked me if it was a stacked encounter. It isn't, it is a stock hard goblin encounter that feels over whelming post level 30 when the goblin caster and his two bodyguards get special abilities. The two minions in the mixed group are fodder, but the encounter is stock, only thing I changed was the wardrobe. Same encounter a Discipline Priest who I also have combat test my work said was too easy and needed to be tweaked.
Later in the same dungeon the only other "hard" encounter is the second phase of my 4 phase boss fight. The spawns are in a very large room, each phase spawns in a different place to reduce the chances of spawning on a player as much as possible but keeping the "heat on" to make the encounter feel like a boss fight. But the problem is it's two caster/summoners and a hulk. Deathwights and a zombie hulk undead stock hard encounter. This encounter has been complained about by nearly every body as being stacked and too hard and it is stock right out of the box with a little change to the appearances. Same DC complained it was too easy, everyone else felt because the wights both summon hordes of zombies that it was too hard.
You do NOT need to stack encounters in order to create challenge. The only place I have done any stacking is when the story calls for it, there is an OOC warning regarding the fight, and after some extensive testing I reduced it from 1 standard and 2 easy to 2 and a half easy and a standard in a nearby room's 2 fodder minions pulled over into the fight. Gives a nice "big battle" without being a death trap at higher levels.
Do you crave a good old fashioned dungeon crawl? One where the dungeon tells it's own story? The Dungeon Delves campaign is just for you! Start with my first release: NW-DQF4T7QYH Any cave can lead to adventure!
One long-term solution might be for Cryptic/PWE to add an option to Foundry encounters which enables you to specfy that they only spawn when the player is in a certain level range and/or by group size.
Having said that, I really have my doubts about how much longevity this game has. At the moment I don't feel the devs have shown much commitment to improve things.
Some possibilities:
List intended level range (ie: tuned for level 40+, much easier at lower levels).
Or a dialog asking what level you are to change encounters (ie: add more at lower levels).
I shouldn't have to change the level in a system that scales. Frankly the people who are claiming that stacked encounters are needed have NEVER played a foundry mission above level 30. That really truly is the golden number. I ran my own content at level 29 and again at 30 and the difference was night and day. A mob I one-shot with an encounter power now only got down to half health at best, and then proceeded to hit me with a special ability I'd never seen before while it's friends beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me.
The editor should have a warning when stacking encounters that warns the Author they are creating an unbalanced encounter. It should also AUTOMATICALLY add a flag that the UGC includes stacked encounters so that before ever going into it a player can choose for themselves if they want to face stacked encounters. The other issue is that the Foundry and really the entire game needs a scaling mechanism for groups. Outside of skirmishes and dungeons there is no content that is balanced for a group of players in this game. There is no mechanic that increases the difficulty of an UGC if more than one player is present. There is no mechanism that allows all the members of a group to read dialog fully in either UGC or cryptic content, who ever finishes the dialog first makes the choice for the whole group and is the only one to see the full dialog tree. There are a lot more group based issues with this game than just what we see in UGC difficulty. The idea of Authors having to custom build their content to compensate for features of the game that the devs are aware of means that either the content will have to be fixed again once the devs make improvements or it will be unplayable once that is put in place.
I simply see no reason to stack encounters beyond a limited multiple easy encounter simply to provide a larger battle feel without making a death trap for the player. Cryptic has stated that content that is designed solely to punish/kill players is considered griefing, and frankly the content that seems ok at level 20 is just that, a death trap and griefing at level 30 or higher.
Do you crave a good old fashioned dungeon crawl? One where the dungeon tells it's own story? The Dungeon Delves campaign is just for you! Start with my first release: NW-DQF4T7QYH Any cave can lead to adventure!
hmmm I did not think of how the difficulty scales... I am making a quest where several easy zombie encounters rise out of the ground at once.... think that will be to hard?
Your basic Rotter zombies are one of "those" mobs with non-linear scaling. They're whimps at low level and you can easily slaugher a few groups for them at once. After 30 lvl however, they start to hit like a truck, still being easy to kill but now more than one group of them can tear down GF guard meter really fast. So imagine what this setup can do to solo player when swarming him/her (there is 5 or 6 mobs in every group).
If you are looking for whimps who are staying whimps all the time, basic skeleton (unarmored!) and Nasher swordsmen are always weak, no matter their level.
Some possibilities:
List intended level range (ie: tuned for level 40+, much easier at lower levels).
Or a dialog asking what level you are to change encounters (ie: add more at lower levels).[/QUOTE
This may be the only solution and quite honestly when it was announced that all foundry adventures be playable at all levels i was quite vocal against that. Now it appears that what might be challenging for a specific level range may to to hard for another level range. I will take this into account and probably state what level ranges recommended for the adventure. The adventures i really enjoyed i will repeat at 35 then again at 45 and see if the experience is similar.
No Authors please if you make a Combat quest, do stack encounters/ I want to play the toughest SOB's around.
If I wanted to play tiddly winks I'd play tidly winks.
Dear OP might I suggest if you do not like stacked encounters, do not play combat heavy quests.
Untill they give us the ability to author in Boss mobs, stacking encounters is the only way to test skill, else it becomes a faceroll and none of us combat centric Foundry players want this.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
No Authors please if you make a Combat quest, do stack encounters/ I want to play the toughest SOB's around.
If I wanted to play tiddly winks I'd play tidly winks.
Dear OP might I suggest if you do not like stacked encounters, do not play combat heavy quests.
Untill they give us the ability to author in Boss mobs, stacking encounters is the only way to test skill, else it becomes a faceroll and none of us combat centric Foundry players want this.
Said the lvl 20 who has never faced those encounters alone at level 60 and had to pay for the potions and injury kits.
Do you crave a good old fashioned dungeon crawl? One where the dungeon tells it's own story? The Dungeon Delves campaign is just for you! Start with my first release: NW-DQF4T7QYH Any cave can lead to adventure!
I have no interest in a combat challenge. if I wanted combat challenges, I'd be off playing PvP with the Greatest Game.
I want a story and amusement DIFFERENT content. Getting my 60 cleric hinie handed to me when sixteen encounters jump me in poor lighting and utterly unavoidable? Yeah, no thanks.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Simple solution, if you want to make an adventure simple and straightforward, but leave the possibility for people to MAKE it challenging as well... then make a dialogue at the beginning (you can cloak the choice in correct lingo and all, seen below) that will determine group play or solo play...
Often, at the beginning of a quest, you need to talk to someone, so utilize that to do the work for you:
Step 1- Have the NPC 'show you the way' instead of just saying, "Walk over yonder into that barrel by the bar... that's the entrance!"
Step 2- Once inside, talk to NPC again... they will say something like, "These tunnels are dangerous, are you sure you will be fine?" and have replies such as "Oh, We will be fine! (Group Option, choose if in party of 3 or more)" and "I'm pretty sure I can handle myself. (Solo Option)"...
Step 3- Make the absolutely necessary enemies for the quest (if there are any) and place them where you want them.
Step 4- Make 'optional' enemies throughout the adventure, with the "Appears When" set to the dialogue option for the group selection.
I am sure there are more elegant ways to do it, but just for a simplistic explanation, there you go... now, both solo and group CAN complete the quest, but anyone choosing 'group' will have more enemies to contend with along the way.
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boydzinjMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Regarding the difficulty choice, I think you're approaching it the wrong way. Instead of despawning encounters, you should spawn additional ones if they choose hard fights..
Hmmm Glass is half full or glass is half empty.
I believe the reason people despawn versus spawn is this:
When you are testing something - you want to test everything on your map. As a result, when you see everything you know what can be removed to make it easier. On the flip side, if you add the mobs - you may accidently make a fight entirely too difficult since you did not see all the mobs you were spawning originally.
From a casual point of view... it might be easier to think of terms of adding challenge or not... but in reality... you are just not putting enough challenge... again think of the glass of water ... is it half full or half empty... either way the water is in there and half way from the top and half way empty. If someone calls it half empty or someone calls it half full... is there really a difference?
I am sure there are more elegant ways to do it, but just for a simplistic explanation, there you go... now, both solo and group CAN complete the quest, but anyone choosing 'group' will have more enemies to contend with along the way.
The problem with that is this:
My level 15 Rogue will think some encounters are too too too easy.
While my level 30 Rogue will think some encounters are tougher.
A badly geared level 60 rogue can think some encounters are too easy; while a well geared T2 Rogue will laugh at the same encounters and can solo what you think is a group encounter.
Some people want a challenge - some want the fastest way to get their daily done for a foundry. Did you know that there are hordes of people who will simply press 1 and not read any text... no matter how well you wrote it and no matter how well it looks?
My level 15 Rogue will think some encounters are too too too easy.
While my level 30 Rogue will think some encounters are tougher.
This is why, technically, you should never get attached to your foundry character lol... you should test the quest at least 6 ways before publishing it (at 3 level points on two different archetypes (one melee, one caster)), THEN test it a couple more times (with your actual toon), this will give you (hopefully) a perspective of 11th, 21st, and 31st levels as a melee and caster, and two live runs...
A badly geared level 60 rogue can think some encounters are too easy; while a well geared T2 Rogue will laugh at the same encounters and can solo what you think is a group encounter.
Unfortunately, the foundry doesn't give us Lvl 60 capability, nor does it let us outfit our foundry toons however we want, etc... =/
Some people want a challenge - some want the fastest way to get their daily done for a foundry. Did you know that there are hordes of people who will simply press 1 and not read any text... no matter how well you wrote it and no matter how well it looks?
So, you are asking for people to show compassion for people who don't even have the common sense to read the instruction on a toothpick before just jabbing in a random spot on their face? All things equal, without reading the first friggin dialogue you run into, you have no idea what to do aside from the quest text at the side of your screen, which amounts to "Place sharp stick in hole"... ok, WHICH HOLE?!?
What exactly do you guys mean by 'stacked encounters'? In the foundry quests I have made I have often grouped many encounters in one area with small distances between them deliberately so the player has to be very careful and pull only one stack at a time (of course I have tested this to ensure it's possible) I don't want my players to just cruise through, I want them to be stuck, to have to think about what they are doing.
For me, personally, a game that does not challenge me to think outside the box or challenge my skill is just watching TV whilst holding some buttons down. If you like that sort of thing then so be it, nothing I can do about that, but I would rather (and I think it much better) for people to enjoy intellectual and skill based challenges where they have to man the &*!&! up and use their brains.
What exactly do you guys mean by 'stacked encounters'? In the foundry quests I have made I have often grouped many encounters in one area with small distances between them deliberately so the player has to be very careful and pull only one stack at a time (of course I have tested this to ensure it's possible) I don't want my players to just cruise through, I want them to be stuck, to have to think about what they are doing.
For me, personally, a game that does not challenge me to think outside the box or challenge my skill is just watching TV whilst holding some buttons down. If you like that sort of thing then so be it, nothing I can do about that, but I would rather (and I think it much better) for people to enjoy intellectual and skill based challenges where they have to man the &*!&! up and use their brains.
You can create plenty of challenge without using multiple encounters overlapping. The encounters listed in the foundry as hard are plenty hard enough at level 60 to be more challenge than some players will be able to bypass without epic gear. You can sit and use phrases like "man the #$*& up" but until you are playing through that content at level 60 you simply have no idea what you are talking about.
Do you crave a good old fashioned dungeon crawl? One where the dungeon tells it's own story? The Dungeon Delves campaign is just for you! Start with my first release: NW-DQF4T7QYH Any cave can lead to adventure!
You can create plenty of challenge without using multiple encounters overlapping. The encounters listed in the foundry as hard are plenty hard enough at level 60 to be more challenge than some players will be able to bypass without epic gear. You can sit and use phrases like "man the #$*& up" but until you are playing through that content at level 60 you simply have no idea what you are talking about.
Please tell me you read what I said rather than just instant replying? I said it's possible to pull them one encounter at a time... if you are careful.
This is the point, I've used puzzles and traps and stuff but the foundry is so limited its difficult to make any of them intellectually challenging, the necessity for every quest to be linear drives me insane and yet I have still managed to put little hints and tips and things in if you explore enough to give some reward to not just following the quest path (i.e. NPC's will give you dialogue short cuts and maze solutions if you find them but you have to explore away from the quest trail to find them). Then the combat, for one quest I have played through with the 'in editor' level 30 classes so much they are all lvl 33-35 and I can complete it, with each class, without using a healing pot. My problem comes in that if someone such as yourself tried to play this quest you would run away screaming.
This is upsetting.
Every time (except the very final fight) that encounters are 'stacked' In this particular quest I've deliberately put in mechanisms to allow you to win with ease, such as causing 10 encounters to fall off a cliff at once, but you have to be actively thinking to be able to see that it's possible. This is what I want, I want to encourage people to think
Right now I encourage you to read posts in completion and think about their content before responding - as you completely ignored what I said about pulling encounters individually.
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nam19772Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
Personnally, I think having to pull encounters one by one to clean a room is tedious, not challenging.
I hope authors realize that 'challenge' isn't the only goal of people playing Foundry, and that not every player wants it.
Which isn't to say 'don't make challenging missions,' it's obviously a common desire. Just... be aware, and communicate.
As above poster, I find a lot of 'challenging' missions just get... tedious. High-energy combat after combat after combat for an hour just... wears on me. It's not pacing, it's endurance.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Personnally, I think having to pull encounters one by one to clean a room is tedious, not challenging.
Pretty much. The challenging encounters are built in to the foundry to include combat challenge. Non-combat challenge has to come from level design. It is also very revealing that everyone arguing for stacked encounters is testing via a character IN THE EDITOR or is below level 30. Challenge scaling is NOT linear. It increases dramatically starting at 30 and goes up from there exponentially. An encounter that you find completely easy at level 20 will be a challenge but manageable at level 30 and downright deadly or impossible at 60. It is also very apparent the type of players who are saying this is required as they layer in insults in their post. Assuming that people who disagree with them are simply not reading their post or "would run screaming" from a good fight.
Uncorrupt, I challenge you personally to create a room with the undead hard mixed encounter with two deathlock wights and a zombie hulk and defeat it with a level 60 cleric solo. That is a stock encounter, doesn't even require stacking to be completely impossible to a solo player.
Do you crave a good old fashioned dungeon crawl? One where the dungeon tells it's own story? The Dungeon Delves campaign is just for you! Start with my first release: NW-DQF4T7QYH Any cave can lead to adventure!
Personnally, I think having to pull encounters one by one to clean a room is tedious, not challenging.
I would say that depends on how difficult and interesting you make the situation and the 'pulling'. The idea is to create a tense situation where the player is forced to take on a heightened awareness of their actions. The difficulty is then increasing the reward of doing so in order to make it not 'tedious'. This is something that is very difficult due to the limited capacity of the editors but it is possible.
Also I would point out that pulling one by one in that tedious fashion is the mainstay of the most successful MMO's of all time. I also have many friends who are constantly disappointed by MMO's (and express this disappointment to me) specifically because they don't have to 'tediously' pull every pull in a room one by one. Personally I would usually agree with you as I see the idea of pulling one by one an abuse of sub-par AI.
It can kind of make sense if they are undead though as they don't really have any intelligence to speak of in the first place - again however context can make a huge difference.
Point is I dislike the idea that people would avoid so generically something that could be used to great effect, if done so in the right way.
Pretty much. The challenging encounters are built in to the foundry to include combat challenge. Non-combat challenge has to come from level design. It is also very revealing that everyone arguing for stacked encounters is testing via a character IN THE EDITOR or is below level 30. Challenge scaling is NOT linear. It increases dramatically starting at 30 and goes up from there exponentially. An encounter that you find completely easy at level 20 will be a challenge but manageable at level 30 and downright deadly or impossible at 60. It is also very apparent the type of players who are saying this is required as they layer in insults in their post. Assuming that people who disagree with them are simply not reading their post or "would run screaming" from a good fight.
Uncorrupt, I challenge you personally to create a room with the undead hard mixed encounter with two deathlock wights and a zombie hulk and defeat it with a level 60 cleric solo. That is a stock encounter, doesn't even require stacking to be completely impossible to a solo player.
At the moment, after publishing, it's nigh on impossible to find your own quest to test it. There is no other option than to use the in-editor chars.
At the moment, after publishing, it's nigh on impossible to find your own quest to test it. There is no other option than to use the in-editor chars.
Short code search works just fine, that is how people are doing review trades, testing, etc.
Do you crave a good old fashioned dungeon crawl? One where the dungeon tells it's own story? The Dungeon Delves campaign is just for you! Start with my first release: NW-DQF4T7QYH Any cave can lead to adventure!
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
At the moment, after publishing, it's nigh on impossible to find your own quest to test it. There is no other option than to use the in-editor chars.
Search via shortcode, normally in the "best" column.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Pulling one of several encounters that are close together with overlapping aggro ranges that cover the center of the encounter just irks my logic. Why aren't they signalling to each other "hey, being attacked here"?
It's generally obvious when I've seen builders do it as well, seeing 20 kobolds standing there in a room and I know they are stacked and go to one corner of the stack and pull. It's not normally a challenge or a puzzle to solve.
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You can also do encounter waves instead of straight stacking. I have 6 encounters on the final fight in Return to the Crypt, but it's in waves: 2x 3x 1x. And in the first 'wave' you can pull one at a time if you're smart about it, and the second wave has zombies so you can take down half the group easily (appear animation takes forever). Though I am considering re-balancing the 3x wave, the archers are a bit much at 31+, and I could really use an encounter elsewhere.
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I don't mind dying if it's due to my stupidity. If I run headlong around a corner into a mess that's my fault, but when you need to kill 2 summoning mobs, plus 4 sub-boss types, plus 4-8 others, and all the summoned adds...yeah I'm a GWF, I can handle a load of mobs, but really what was the thought process behind that. Esp. when it was advertized as doable solo. I finished and just zero starred it, no comment. First one I have done that with. The story had potential, although it felt like something a young inexperienced DM might make, (which might explain the silly mass of Drow at the end), and seeing the phrase "Yeah that was Awesome" come from an Elf character was a bit sad.
Short version: I'm not here to die while testing your dungeon.
edit: Another thing to note, which may be as important as not stacking, is placement, esp. when mobs spawn from triggers. I had to pick up a book in a closet in a dungeon, which triggered a few mobs right in the closet doorway. I couldn't move. I basically was pinned into a corner while my companion and I were cut down. The adventure was good, so I finished, but be aware of potential issues like that as well as a foundry designer. Give us a little room to breathe.
Neither of those two is likely to cause much trouble if used in moderation. I do both myself. The thing you need to keep in mind is that the apparent danger of such encounters will vary a lot based on both the class and the level. A Trickster Rogue will have more problems with a bunch of minions than with a solo monster, while a Control Wizard will most likely be the opposite. As long as you don't overdo this kind of thing, the potion loss for getting into too tough encounters for your class/level won't be too frustrating. Just don't ever fall into the temptation of stacking hard encounters on top of each other.
I have been more inmpressed with the few group oriented foundry quest out there and all mine will be molded in that way with a warning which recommends a number of players to play them. The Cragsteep Crypt is probably my favorite foundry quest i have had the pleasure to play. My friend and I really enjoyed it we both had healing companions.
stacked encounters are a must for group content. And i believe there a must in solo content to make them challenging enough for players like myself. In solo adventures they should be used very carefully but there a must.
was level 21 for draconis pub and 27 for crypt of carnage. Cragsteep Crypt we were 24.
As much as I love input, your impressions are useless to us if you don't provide your level. Your post would be put in a much different light if you're level 60 than if you're level 20, for example.
I do enjoy grouping though, and stacked encounters are the only way to make something work for groups.
I find the "difficulty sliders" to be a fantastic compromise. I'll just choose easy every time I'm soloing and I hope your easy is ACTUALLY easy.
Short code: NW-DJGYNI7NH
In this old school-style adventure, the hero(es) explore an old ruined castle while searching for a fabled magic item at the behest of a wizard.
Hard is such a bad word in this case as well. An example is the torture chamber in my quest NW-DQF4T7QYH. Tilt ran it with a lvl 46 Guardian Warrior and had a difficult time with it and actually asked me if it was a stacked encounter. It isn't, it is a stock hard goblin encounter that feels over whelming post level 30 when the goblin caster and his two bodyguards get special abilities. The two minions in the mixed group are fodder, but the encounter is stock, only thing I changed was the wardrobe. Same encounter a Discipline Priest who I also have combat test my work said was too easy and needed to be tweaked.
Later in the same dungeon the only other "hard" encounter is the second phase of my 4 phase boss fight. The spawns are in a very large room, each phase spawns in a different place to reduce the chances of spawning on a player as much as possible but keeping the "heat on" to make the encounter feel like a boss fight. But the problem is it's two caster/summoners and a hulk. Deathwights and a zombie hulk undead stock hard encounter. This encounter has been complained about by nearly every body as being stacked and too hard and it is stock right out of the box with a little change to the appearances. Same DC complained it was too easy, everyone else felt because the wights both summon hordes of zombies that it was too hard.
You do NOT need to stack encounters in order to create challenge. The only place I have done any stacking is when the story calls for it, there is an OOC warning regarding the fight, and after some extensive testing I reduced it from 1 standard and 2 easy to 2 and a half easy and a standard in a nearby room's 2 fodder minions pulled over into the fight. Gives a nice "big battle" without being a death trap at higher levels.
Having said that, I really have my doubts about how much longevity this game has. At the moment I don't feel the devs have shown much commitment to improve things.
List intended level range (ie: tuned for level 40+, much easier at lower levels).
Or a dialog asking what level you are to change encounters (ie: add more at lower levels).
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I shouldn't have to change the level in a system that scales. Frankly the people who are claiming that stacked encounters are needed have NEVER played a foundry mission above level 30. That really truly is the golden number. I ran my own content at level 29 and again at 30 and the difference was night and day. A mob I one-shot with an encounter power now only got down to half health at best, and then proceeded to hit me with a special ability I'd never seen before while it's friends beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of me.
The editor should have a warning when stacking encounters that warns the Author they are creating an unbalanced encounter. It should also AUTOMATICALLY add a flag that the UGC includes stacked encounters so that before ever going into it a player can choose for themselves if they want to face stacked encounters. The other issue is that the Foundry and really the entire game needs a scaling mechanism for groups. Outside of skirmishes and dungeons there is no content that is balanced for a group of players in this game. There is no mechanic that increases the difficulty of an UGC if more than one player is present. There is no mechanism that allows all the members of a group to read dialog fully in either UGC or cryptic content, who ever finishes the dialog first makes the choice for the whole group and is the only one to see the full dialog tree. There are a lot more group based issues with this game than just what we see in UGC difficulty. The idea of Authors having to custom build their content to compensate for features of the game that the devs are aware of means that either the content will have to be fixed again once the devs make improvements or it will be unplayable once that is put in place.
I simply see no reason to stack encounters beyond a limited multiple easy encounter simply to provide a larger battle feel without making a death trap for the player. Cryptic has stated that content that is designed solely to punish/kill players is considered griefing, and frankly the content that seems ok at level 20 is just that, a death trap and griefing at level 30 or higher.
If you are looking for whimps who are staying whimps all the time, basic skeleton (unarmored!) and Nasher swordsmen are always weak, no matter their level.
If I wanted to play tiddly winks I'd play tidly winks.
Dear OP might I suggest if you do not like stacked encounters, do not play combat heavy quests.
Untill they give us the ability to author in Boss mobs, stacking encounters is the only way to test skill, else it becomes a faceroll and none of us combat centric Foundry players want this.
Character is what a man is in the dark
Said the lvl 20 who has never faced those encounters alone at level 60 and had to pay for the potions and injury kits.
I want a story and amusement DIFFERENT content. Getting my 60 cleric hinie handed to me when sixteen encounters jump me in poor lighting and utterly unavoidable? Yeah, no thanks.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Often, at the beginning of a quest, you need to talk to someone, so utilize that to do the work for you:
Step 1- Have the NPC 'show you the way' instead of just saying, "Walk over yonder into that barrel by the bar... that's the entrance!"
Step 2- Once inside, talk to NPC again... they will say something like, "These tunnels are dangerous, are you sure you will be fine?" and have replies such as "Oh, We will be fine! (Group Option, choose if in party of 3 or more)" and "I'm pretty sure I can handle myself. (Solo Option)"...
Step 3- Make the absolutely necessary enemies for the quest (if there are any) and place them where you want them.
Step 4- Make 'optional' enemies throughout the adventure, with the "Appears When" set to the dialogue option for the group selection.
I am sure there are more elegant ways to do it, but just for a simplistic explanation, there you go... now, both solo and group CAN complete the quest, but anyone choosing 'group' will have more enemies to contend with along the way.
Hmmm Glass is half full or glass is half empty.
I believe the reason people despawn versus spawn is this:
When you are testing something - you want to test everything on your map. As a result, when you see everything you know what can be removed to make it easier. On the flip side, if you add the mobs - you may accidently make a fight entirely too difficult since you did not see all the mobs you were spawning originally.
From a casual point of view... it might be easier to think of terms of adding challenge or not... but in reality... you are just not putting enough challenge... again think of the glass of water ... is it half full or half empty... either way the water is in there and half way from the top and half way empty. If someone calls it half empty or someone calls it half full... is there really a difference?
The problem with that is this:
My level 15 Rogue will think some encounters are too too too easy.
While my level 30 Rogue will think some encounters are tougher.
A badly geared level 60 rogue can think some encounters are too easy; while a well geared T2 Rogue will laugh at the same encounters and can solo what you think is a group encounter.
Some people want a challenge - some want the fastest way to get their daily done for a foundry. Did you know that there are hordes of people who will simply press 1 and not read any text... no matter how well you wrote it and no matter how well it looks?
This is why, technically, you should never get attached to your foundry character lol... you should test the quest at least 6 ways before publishing it (at 3 level points on two different archetypes (one melee, one caster)), THEN test it a couple more times (with your actual toon), this will give you (hopefully) a perspective of 11th, 21st, and 31st levels as a melee and caster, and two live runs...
Unfortunately, the foundry doesn't give us Lvl 60 capability, nor does it let us outfit our foundry toons however we want, etc... =/
So, you are asking for people to show compassion for people who don't even have the common sense to read the instruction on a toothpick before just jabbing in a random spot on their face? All things equal, without reading the first friggin dialogue you run into, you have no idea what to do aside from the quest text at the side of your screen, which amounts to "Place sharp stick in hole"... ok, WHICH HOLE?!?
"Hmmm... maybe this is an ear-swab..."
For me, personally, a game that does not challenge me to think outside the box or challenge my skill is just watching TV whilst holding some buttons down. If you like that sort of thing then so be it, nothing I can do about that, but I would rather (and I think it much better) for people to enjoy intellectual and skill based challenges where they have to man the &*!&! up and use their brains.
You can create plenty of challenge without using multiple encounters overlapping. The encounters listed in the foundry as hard are plenty hard enough at level 60 to be more challenge than some players will be able to bypass without epic gear. You can sit and use phrases like "man the #$*& up" but until you are playing through that content at level 60 you simply have no idea what you are talking about.
Please tell me you read what I said rather than just instant replying? I said it's possible to pull them one encounter at a time... if you are careful.
This is the point, I've used puzzles and traps and stuff but the foundry is so limited its difficult to make any of them intellectually challenging, the necessity for every quest to be linear drives me insane and yet I have still managed to put little hints and tips and things in if you explore enough to give some reward to not just following the quest path (i.e. NPC's will give you dialogue short cuts and maze solutions if you find them but you have to explore away from the quest trail to find them). Then the combat, for one quest I have played through with the 'in editor' level 30 classes so much they are all lvl 33-35 and I can complete it, with each class, without using a healing pot. My problem comes in that if someone such as yourself tried to play this quest you would run away screaming.
This is upsetting.
Every time (except the very final fight) that encounters are 'stacked' In this particular quest I've deliberately put in mechanisms to allow you to win with ease, such as causing 10 encounters to fall off a cliff at once, but you have to be actively thinking to be able to see that it's possible. This is what I want, I want to encourage people to think
Right now I encourage you to read posts in completion and think about their content before responding - as you completely ignored what I said about pulling encounters individually.
Which isn't to say 'don't make challenging missions,' it's obviously a common desire. Just... be aware, and communicate.
As above poster, I find a lot of 'challenging' missions just get... tedious. High-energy combat after combat after combat for an hour just... wears on me. It's not pacing, it's endurance.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Pretty much. The challenging encounters are built in to the foundry to include combat challenge. Non-combat challenge has to come from level design. It is also very revealing that everyone arguing for stacked encounters is testing via a character IN THE EDITOR or is below level 30. Challenge scaling is NOT linear. It increases dramatically starting at 30 and goes up from there exponentially. An encounter that you find completely easy at level 20 will be a challenge but manageable at level 30 and downright deadly or impossible at 60. It is also very apparent the type of players who are saying this is required as they layer in insults in their post. Assuming that people who disagree with them are simply not reading their post or "would run screaming" from a good fight.
Uncorrupt, I challenge you personally to create a room with the undead hard mixed encounter with two deathlock wights and a zombie hulk and defeat it with a level 60 cleric solo. That is a stock encounter, doesn't even require stacking to be completely impossible to a solo player.
I would say that depends on how difficult and interesting you make the situation and the 'pulling'. The idea is to create a tense situation where the player is forced to take on a heightened awareness of their actions. The difficulty is then increasing the reward of doing so in order to make it not 'tedious'. This is something that is very difficult due to the limited capacity of the editors but it is possible.
Also I would point out that pulling one by one in that tedious fashion is the mainstay of the most successful MMO's of all time. I also have many friends who are constantly disappointed by MMO's (and express this disappointment to me) specifically because they don't have to 'tediously' pull every pull in a room one by one. Personally I would usually agree with you as I see the idea of pulling one by one an abuse of sub-par AI.
It can kind of make sense if they are undead though as they don't really have any intelligence to speak of in the first place - again however context can make a huge difference.
Point is I dislike the idea that people would avoid so generically something that could be used to great effect, if done so in the right way.
At the moment, after publishing, it's nigh on impossible to find your own quest to test it. There is no other option than to use the in-editor chars.
Short code search works just fine, that is how people are doing review trades, testing, etc.
It's generally obvious when I've seen builders do it as well, seeing 20 kobolds standing there in a room and I know they are stacked and go to one corner of the stack and pull. It's not normally a challenge or a puzzle to solve.