My final bit of curiosity - is it possible to enable or disable spawns based on a text selection made early in the quest? That way we can establish multiple difficulties based on a dialog selection made at the start. This would let me make my nice hard 2 man quest, but still tune it down for a solo player to enjoy. I feel that is the real solution to this problem, configurable difficulties.
Yes, this is indeed possible if you're willing to live with a few limitations in how you can use your encounters for the story. It's also a very good idea. If anyone decides to try this for a solo quest, let me know and I'll test it for you.
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boydzinjMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
2 - And furthermore, as I get to higher level, I will have more tools, and more power at my disposal. This will further decrease the difficulty.
It depends on what class and your play style. If you are going as a cleric and pick and use skills that focus on healing and dps. You may find yourself struggling with fights, even killing a minion can be a task. While a Trickster rogue can easily 1-shot some minions.
his initial feedback was that it was too easy because there was nothing really he had to CC actively to live. Without something large to kill him, it was too easy, and so version 2 with evil monsters of doom was born
I agree. There are many people who complain the content is too easy and then the same number of people who complain it is too hard. You will never get the perfect number. You may think its easy and your friend think its hard. Yet he may think three of "X" encounter are easy while you can not defeat a single mob. How do you balance that?
There is no perfect way to balance everything. I try to make hooks and patterns and logical thinking as part of my foundry missions. Keep in mind, I only just started on the foundry. I have, for an example, a beach with a portal teleporting drow slavers and warriors in. The first part of my quest informs the player that we need an object at the end of the beach. The Drow leader informs you that she wants the object and has brought a force to defend it and bring slaves.
I figure, if I was "defending" an object I would have patrols, set guards, and a few recon or scout units at the far edge. I create the beach to be of that pattern. Imagine you are south and the object you need is far north. In between you is the beach littered with drow units. They are organzed in groups of scouts and recon units (easily killed, if you dont go crazy with grabbing allot of them) followed by the main task force. The main task force have drow guards and slavers; however, a group of patrols walks in set patterns around these forces. Since it is on a beach, there is an ocean water to one side. As you can imagine the drow are not found of water, so there are fewer units in the water - but of course it is an ocean so you can not go too far into the water.
Lastly, I have the main boss in the rear guarded by some hard guards that are performing a ritual to capture the object and bring it back. I gave a reason as to why the mobs are there. I organized them the way I think they would invade. I even gave a path where you could avoid many of the fights and mobs - if you wanted to. Yet, people still complained and gave me 1 and 2 stars because the mobs were just "thrown in" there. Who is wrong and who is right?
I am still tweaking the encounters. But, it can get frustrating - especially, since this is meant to be a group foundry - for 3+Companions. So I know I am stacking multiple encounters together... on purpose. Naturally, my text says it is fight intensive and is meant for 3+Companions.
Ultimately speaking, do what you feel is right and what you think is fun. If you like it, the right audience may like it as well and you will enjoy it even more.
My final bit of curiosity - is it possible to enable or disable spawns based on a text selection made early in the quest? That way we can establish multiple difficulties based on a dialog selection made at the start. This would let me make my nice hard 2 man quest, but still tune it down for a solo player to enjoy. I feel that is the real solution to this problem, configurable difficulties.
I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT! If that is possible let me know how to do that as well! THAT WOULD BE WONDERFUL!
I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT! If that is possible let me know how to do that as well! THAT WOULD BE WONDERFUL!
All you have to do is create a dialog (you have to do this for each map in the quest, as dialogs don't transfer across maps) where the player chooses one of two difficulties. Then, for each encounter you want to only appear when the player picks Hard, set its Disappear When trigger to Dialog Prompt Reached, pointing to the Easy dialog choice. This effectively means that when the player picks Easy, the Hard encounters are removed from the map. If he picks Hard, there is no change. You should also tie this dialog into the story so that the player can't go through it more than once.
There are drawbacks to this though. For example, if you've got a part of your quest that requires you to kill all the enemies in an area to proceed, you've suddenly got a problem when some of them are hidden from the player if he picks Easy (you actually can't hide them at all in this case). You also can't use other triggers to hide enemies, a feature that can be useful for some of the fancier tricks in the Foundry.
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vanturiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited May 2013
I can appreciate how encounter stacking with static encounters could pose problems depending on the class of the player.
I have been using alot of patrolling encounters. If the player takes the Leroy Jenkins approach to the zone, then yeah, it's going to be next to impossible, since there is a lot of overlap.
A previous poster mentioned using stacked encounters that are spread to allow pulling. This is why I let patrolling encounters overlap. The player needs to be cautious and smart.
-Vanturi
_______________________________________ There stands my golden tower, bright and bold,
far beyond the bounds of your imagination.
wow; lol i wish I would've read this earlier. when I played thru my MAP i noticed that most of my mobs (enemies) were easy to pull. I, unfortunately, have a lot of enemies side by side but hopefully my "un tweaking" may work out.
Yeah I was kinda wondering how higher level testing would work. For example heres my theory...again my theory.
At level 15 you can actually start a foundry quest/mission/etc
When you start a foundry you can only test a character up to level 10
Perhaps at level 30 in the game you can test a character up to level 20
40 then 30
50 then 40
60 then 50
Again my theory. But yeah I had no idea that a level 31 player would have extreme difficulties compared to a level 21 player.
Like the original poster said; perhaps I should just make a statement saying "published first version only for testing/feedback and to immediately pull down after"
I do think my quest/map shouldnt be solo'd anyways but perhaps targetted towards lower level players. Under 20..solo; over 20 group
Not to beat a dead horse, but my experience is somewhat the opposite of the original poster. Personally I am sick and tired of running quests where people are not dropping more than one encounter and frankly it is boring as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>! Stories and content aside, I am not in the market to run quests just for the prize at the end and I certainly am not going to make a cry to the Foundry building public to dumb down the encounters because I want my reward.
It is super hard to balance how any given class is going to fare in a dungeon where encounter are stacked. I simply won't build a "run it in 10 minutes" dungeon because the time and effort it takes to create a story, create the zones, make the quests, drop encounters and all the other stuff is worth more than that.
I do believe it is possible to stack encounters, but it takes some finesse... Here is what I do and for the most part it works pretty well. Fast and challenging encounters and oh yeah you are gonna drink a few potions, but it will be a fun and rewarding time:
Start with your main encounter. If it is a boss area I'm dropping a smallish group of HARD. One will become my boss and the others "helpers" - stagger them out and place them how you want. Next I'm gonna drop AT LEAST two easy encounters and usually I go with ranged. What tends to happen is the player rushes head strong into the boss and before they realize it the room was a bit more crowded than they thought, but it is not game stopping. Most classes can obliterate easy level archers in a few hits - take out the trash before sitting down to the main course.
It works and while sometimes if I have placed poorly it can be a little too hard for the most part it is right on. Anyway... just my two cents on the subject.
I am one of those who create Foundry missions with difficulty and group play in mind. It is listed on the very front of my foundry mission. Yet people play it solo, claim its hard and down rate it.
Some of us want a challenge and want to group up. Some of us want to create content that isnt a cake walk.
Hopefully these people who are doing this are stating it so in their Foundry mission overview. If you're ignoring it, please dont mark them down or complain about it.
But you are absolutely right about the testing of said missions. None should be published without being ready for public consumption.
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crok2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
To give an example: I played a friends quest on my level 47 cleric and decided not to complete it because my time was around the 45 minute range as a first review. So instead I went on my level 5 rogue and I was done in 12 minutes so I had to wait til the 15 minute mark to finish it to not hose his time.
I am one of those who create Foundry missions with difficulty and group play in mind. It is listed on the very front of my foundry mission. Yet people play it solo, claim its hard and down rate it.
Once again, this discussion isn't really about group quests. It's about solo quests with stacked encounters. If your quest is marked as group content then all bets are off.
I think the discussion is starting to go off-course here.
OP: Correct me if I am mistaken...
I took the OP post to mean basically this:
"Hey, all you newcomers to Foundry Quest Creation - WELCOME! Here's a tip: when creating your quests, please understand your play-test preview character is a low-level character and your quest will be super-easy to blast through. It gets a lot tougher at higher levels. Please do not mistakenly stack your encounters because play-testing feels too easy - with the intention of making it more challenging."
The discussion in general, I believe, is really directed at and for the benefit of newcomers to the Foundry who don't understand how the level-balancing works. Hell, I even fell into this trap but quickly realized what was going on. The play-test character is able to blast through your placed encounters (even the "hard" level Goblins, etc.). So you tend to add another until it "feels right".
But not realizing that level balancing itself isn't balanced as encounter difficulty increases *exponentially* higher in comparison to actual leveling.
This discussion isn't intended as a debate about experienced Foundry Author styles or techniques. it isn't even about quests designed for groups or solo quests.
WE. GET. IT.
This discussion is intended for the newcomer for the simple purpose of helping them understand a *common mistake*. If you intentionally stack your encounters because you want to create an epic combat zone and know what the ramifications are - then go for it. Just make sure to note that at or near the top of your description.
Don't use the excuse of "no one actually reads the description" - that's BS. The people who prefer "adventuring" to "hack-n-slash" DO read the descriptions, top to bottom. So if you your quest is intentionally made that difficult then SAY SO.
Otherwise - if you're just trying to create a fun, interesting quest in the style or tradition of *most* other quests in game: then please don't stack encounters simply because you feel your quest isn't challenging enough. Remember: 90% of Neverwinter game players are not min-maxers or MMO-Fanbois. They're just here looking for entertainment. Not spend 45 minutes on a 20-minute quest (which is what happens at higher levels with too many encounters: they become harder, which means they take a LOT longer).
The biggest problem right now is people not fully understanding what the mobs they are placing are capable of. Stacking Encounters is fine if you do it in a way that is challenging but not silly. Like I did a quest with stacked mobs that had a stun and could literally stun lock you. I would recommend everyone go through all the encounter types and actually see what abilities the mobs use so they can combine them creatively would be my best advise.
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boydzinjMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Did the author state the quest is supposed to be a party size of 2+companions? or companions?
Likewise, sometimes on boss fights I may stay an extra encounter off to the side ... to give the 'boss' a harder situation. The problem we have is this: Some people want harder content - however, some mobs scale harder than other mobs at higher levels. The mind flayers are a great example of this. The mind flayer hard encounter is not that difficult until level 30+, they they start using some crazy aoe and CC abilities that can kill low hp players outright. Yet to a level 1, they are a joke.
Another thing I experimented on is this: I made a NPC that the player can talk to... that will despawn specific mobs currently on the field. I called this NPC: Click me for EASY. I then made my first quest in this foundry to speak to the main NPC and the main NPC explained this was a tough foundry meant for groups of 2 or 3+companions. I then explained that there was a NPC bear called, "Click me for EASY." that can reduce the number of spawns I had in most areas.
This now gives the player a choice to either play this foundry with some friends or solo. However, the next that you read on the foundry board also explains this and explains that this is really meant for 2+ or 3+companions.
As for testing quests. I know what you mean. My first (and so far only) foundry mission/quest is to make barbecue sauce. (sure there is a side event of a Drow invasion to the surface world and an orc group that is pillaging and razing the country size followed by a demon that crossed the planes into our realm - never-the-less, the main quest like is about making barbecue sauce). As a result, originally, i had the player go fetch physical items (water, herbs, and peppers). Three items that they needed to have in their inventory. WHAT a waste. Bag space is a premium and I am forcing players to lose 3 bag spots to a barbecue quest.
I redesigned the quest to roleplay and make the player make believe he or she is actually grabbing items - but in reality they are just interacting with an object that gives them a text that says they "recieved quest item." Then when they return it the quest NPC roleplays and tells them in text that the player successfully gave him the non existent item.
All well and done in theory. What I did not know was this: my final quest had some logic in it that required all three items to be in the inventory to be acomplished. I published this quest, and the game did not even inform me that it was not possible to actually get the items and thus not possible to finish the quest. So if someone ran it and it took them 30 minutes to 45 minutes... they could not finish it. Luckily, I ran my own quest and realized I could not finish it and the mistake I made. I had to quickly enter my quest, and remove the dialogue option that forced the player to have the three barbecue items that we are roleplaying that they received.
If I did not play my own adventure and did the quest - who knows how long that quest would be out there... and NO ONE would be able to complete it. It was an honest mistake. However, the game did not tell me it was not finishable and I forgot about the logic in the last quest I placed there.
If I did not play my own adventure and did the quest - who knows how long that quest would be out there... and NO ONE would be able to complete it. It was an honest mistake. However, the game did not tell me it was not finishable and I forgot about the logic in the last quest I placed there.
One more reason to use one of the many, many buttons in the Foundry to play the quest prior to publishing. Constant playing and reading from the game mode version as opposed to the editing version will allow you to not only get a feel for your quest, but make sure parts work, things drop, monsters spawn, i's are dotted and t's are crossed.
Actually, that's interesting information to note. Personally, I've been doing quests on characters I have - which right now is a 26 cleric, 25 guardian fighter, and a 15 control wizard. I had started using mutliple mob encounters simply because with those characters at the time, anything less felt very trivial - 2 standard pulls on a level 26 cleric isn't something I sweat.
I'll have to rethink this and down-tune my quest a bit I think. It's worth nothing that given the foundry tools, the buggy author character with poor gear and no companion, it's not uprising there are some very difficult encounters. Things like The Draconis Pub are very popular because they spawn rooms full of silvers.
I did however play test my quest immediately after I published it and proved that I could solo it, and that it was working, for what that's worth
Yep I am in the same boat exactly. I am making my first quest and there's an area with about 3 hard Mindflayer encounters with another elite guy on top of that as the midpoint of the quest (with something harder for the end).
Right now on my TR and with the guardian friend I run with (and our companions) we would absolutely decimate that without even a blink (both level 20), but it seems the balance is all over the place with other classes and levels.
I'm probably going to have to redo the encounters in my quest given this information.
One more reason to use one of the many, many buttons in the Foundry to play the quest prior to publishing. Constant playing and reading from the game mode version as opposed to the editing version will allow you to not only get a feel for your quest, but make sure parts work, things drop, monsters spawn, i's are dotted and t's are crossed.
I've definitely been running through it in game mode to test everything frequently, but it seems like the Foundry character doesn't have any real skills or abilities and the at-will abilities rarely seem to do anything for me (errors I think). I'm guessing I probably have to delete and recreate the guy. I've been basing the encounters on what I thought I could do with my TR at level 20, for the most part, half out of laziness as I need to make so many changes anyway that running through it right now is low priority in terms of the fighting.
I've been testing this on my own quest, I think- generally from what I've play tested live anything above standard stacked tends to just go AWOL. But it's defiantly different 'live' on the server- the playtest characters just seem to be completely broken half the time.
it makes it very difficult to test things without having to put it 'live' first. The amount of bugs and combat balancing stuff I've encountered is pretty astounding.
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boydzinjMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I've been testing this on my own quest, I think- generally from what I've play tested live anything above standard stacked tends to just go AWOL. But it's defiantly different 'live' on the server- the playtest characters just seem to be completely broken half the time.
it makes it very difficult to test things without having to put it 'live' first. The amount of bugs and combat balancing stuff I've encountered is pretty astounding.
The problem sometimes happens when you test mobs at low level then at level 30+ they become... insane.
Mind Flayers "hard" encounters are easy and a joke at level 29 and under. yet at level 30+ they can stun lock you - if you are not careful and they hit hard. At level 40-ish 1 of their'SPECIAL' hits take about 25 to 30% of my hit points which is not something they do at low levels. Not all mobs scale linear to the player. Translation: Like players, some mobs get access to more powerful spells and abilities and attacks at later levels. As a result, some of the easier encounters become VERY HARD at late levels.
A "hard" encounter that is easy at low levels maybe impossible to some classes at higher levels.
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crok2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
The problem sometimes happens when you test mobs at low level then at level 30+ they become... insane.
A "hard" encounter that is easy at low levels maybe impossible to some classes at higher levels.
EXACTLY. And then you see people stacked 2 or 3+ of them and call it a 'solo' quest that isn't hard as long as you 'know how to play'. IE: They have never played it above level 30.
At this point, I honestly don't see how to satisfy the requirements of having a challenging quest at low levels and have not scale towards insanity at end-game levels. You do not want to bore your level 10-30 players to death and get low reviews ... you want to create quality quests that are enjoyable and leave the player wanting for more (in a good way). Often times, this calls for stacking.
If we can place a description in a quest to say that the quest is tuned for solo play, or group play + companions ... why can you not also say which level of character the quest is tuned for?
Yes, I know that you don't want to alienate higher level players, but which would you rather have: A quest that can't be completed by a level 60 with decent gear and receive a poor rating, or a quest that is a complete joke at level 10 which is your primary audience for that zone ... and receive a poor rating?
Alternatively, you can push out an alternate version of the same quest that is tuned for the other spectrum of levels. I know Foundry slots can be at a premium to dedicated quest builders, however you can always create another free account as well.
You could go with the difficulty selector at the start of the quest. Remove encounters from the quest if players pick Easy (Solo might be a better name, actually).
You could go with the difficulty selector at the start of the quest. Remove encounters from the quest if players pick Easy (Solo might be a better name, actually).
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Have the player talk to the NPC setting the difficulty of the map and have them say how many are in the party based on your set difficulty tiers. Solo, party, 3+ members or whatever.
My main problem with setting the maps difficulty through dialogue is the out of character nature of the conversation. But that seems an elegant way to blend it into the quest without stretching the suspension of disbelief of the players.
hmmm I did not think of how the difficulty scales... I am making a quest where several easy zombie encounters rise out of the ground at once.... think that will be to hard?
I think most players are okay with a little bit of meta-setup, as long as they get a play experience that's more tailored to their liking in the end. The only issue I can see is that you'd have to do it at that start of every map that had monsters, since you can't despawn an encounter in Map B, based on a dialogue prompt in Map A (I think?)
As a new author, I was guilty stacking a few encounters on each other and I read this OP post and understand why that is a bad idea. Now (on my third quest) I find ways to place encounters in different areas to make them challenging but not necessarily overpowering to the solo player.
So thank you for posting this, as I think it helped me a little on my quests.
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boydzinjMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
...since you can't despawn an encounter in Map B, based on a dialogue prompt in Map A (I think?)
Correct. The Dialogue prompt works per map - and only if the mobs are already spawned when the phrase is said. If the mobs appear after the phrase is said... the prompt does not work... unless it is re-triggered.
I have a map called, "Black Heart's Barbecue Dilemma" where I do stack a few "HARD" encounters together and add a few roaming (patrolling) units that are also "HARD" as well. I got several request to make it solo... so I placed a BEAR in the encounter (near the campfire). If you talk to the bear - the bear will say a specific Unique phrase. I have a few mobs set to disappear if that phase is ever said. No other NPC or item says that specific phrase - or anything close to that phrase. All the "HARD" encounters I have set to disappear with that phrase... go disappear. I have a good 7 to 12 encounters that will despawn if you talk to the bear (assuming you have not killed them already).
I played around with is. I had a few mobs spawn or appear after a mission was complete and I tested it out by talking to the bear ahead of time. The mobs still appeared, because the even though the bear said its dialogue.
Since the bear is something you can use at any time - if a player dies too much they can try talking to the bear to despawn some of the mobs - and I even explain early on... it works for SOME of the encounters but none of the boss or quest encounters are effected.
On suggestion, is to tell the players that EACH map has a bear... and if you want to make it easier per map they need to talk to the bear. Why do I use a bear? TEDDY BEARS are nice and cuddly, of course.
/Signed I definitely think the OP is in the right, even if your just making a [test] make sure some basic functions are built in "like the ability to complete the quest!" make sure the loot chest is accessible in a convenient manner, properly/ well placed re-spawn point/ camp fire, correct/ working map transitions! reasonable "quest descriptions" so they have an idea of how to get done and out.
look at my test map, I think that's the way to do it, @visigoth18
It's at the point for me where I'll only look at the first encounter in a quest before deciding whether to drop it or not. If the first encounter is obviously stacked, and not in a way that makes sense, I'll drop the quest and play another one. I typically also do this for quests that claim to be challenging solo. That mostly just means that the author slapped in stacked encounters and never tested the quest above level 30.
Luckily, I'm seeing less of these problems in newer quests. I get the impression that the authors are learning, which is very nice indeed.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
One reason why you have to be level 15 to use the Foundry: So you can see how Cryptic did encounter density. Cryptic points out that encounters will auto scale to the player level. Difficulty scaling is uneven, easier for lower level players and higher for higher level players, which is why you get comments and bad ratings of both "too easy" and "too hard" for the same quest.
They don't scale to party yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually did. The Foundry also shows the aggro radius of the encounter.
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kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
If you notice when entering areas with new monster types in Cryptic quests, the first encounter or two are always easy ones in order to introduce the player to the encounters.
The only places in my content you would get a stacked encounter come from either my poorly planned patrols which I've been tweaking or in place of "Boss" encounters.
I have one fairly low level quest I ran for my table top group that ends with the party stumbling upon a very young dragon who has enlisted some kobold worshippers to help it create a lair. It's designed to be a slowly ramping challenge up to finding out the "god" the kobolds keep calling out to is the wyrmling. I can not now nor do I think ever will be able to include it as a foundry mission due to an inability to ramp up the difficulty in the manner I had in my table top adventure. This is completely disregarding the fact I can not create a "boss" encounter with the dragon at the end.
In the interim if Cryptic wants to help alleviate this issue they could put in encounter overlap exclusion. Give me a checkbox that I can un-check but starts enabled that makes it so you can not place another encounter inside the encounter radius of another encounter. For those wanting to do encounters that are triggered, ramped encounters, etc they can un-check the box but for those who are more novice this will stop this from being an issue.
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Comments
Yes, this is indeed possible if you're willing to live with a few limitations in how you can use your encounters for the story. It's also a very good idea. If anyone decides to try this for a solo quest, let me know and I'll test it for you.
It depends on what class and your play style. If you are going as a cleric and pick and use skills that focus on healing and dps. You may find yourself struggling with fights, even killing a minion can be a task. While a Trickster rogue can easily 1-shot some minions.
I agree. There are many people who complain the content is too easy and then the same number of people who complain it is too hard. You will never get the perfect number. You may think its easy and your friend think its hard. Yet he may think three of "X" encounter are easy while you can not defeat a single mob. How do you balance that?
There is no perfect way to balance everything. I try to make hooks and patterns and logical thinking as part of my foundry missions. Keep in mind, I only just started on the foundry. I have, for an example, a beach with a portal teleporting drow slavers and warriors in. The first part of my quest informs the player that we need an object at the end of the beach. The Drow leader informs you that she wants the object and has brought a force to defend it and bring slaves.
I figure, if I was "defending" an object I would have patrols, set guards, and a few recon or scout units at the far edge. I create the beach to be of that pattern. Imagine you are south and the object you need is far north. In between you is the beach littered with drow units. They are organzed in groups of scouts and recon units (easily killed, if you dont go crazy with grabbing allot of them) followed by the main task force. The main task force have drow guards and slavers; however, a group of patrols walks in set patterns around these forces. Since it is on a beach, there is an ocean water to one side. As you can imagine the drow are not found of water, so there are fewer units in the water - but of course it is an ocean so you can not go too far into the water.
Lastly, I have the main boss in the rear guarded by some hard guards that are performing a ritual to capture the object and bring it back. I gave a reason as to why the mobs are there. I organized them the way I think they would invade. I even gave a path where you could avoid many of the fights and mobs - if you wanted to. Yet, people still complained and gave me 1 and 2 stars because the mobs were just "thrown in" there. Who is wrong and who is right?
I am still tweaking the encounters. But, it can get frustrating - especially, since this is meant to be a group foundry - for 3+Companions. So I know I am stacking multiple encounters together... on purpose. Naturally, my text says it is fight intensive and is meant for 3+Companions.
Ultimately speaking, do what you feel is right and what you think is fun. If you like it, the right audience may like it as well and you will enjoy it even more.
I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT! If that is possible let me know how to do that as well! THAT WOULD BE WONDERFUL!
All you have to do is create a dialog (you have to do this for each map in the quest, as dialogs don't transfer across maps) where the player chooses one of two difficulties. Then, for each encounter you want to only appear when the player picks Hard, set its Disappear When trigger to Dialog Prompt Reached, pointing to the Easy dialog choice. This effectively means that when the player picks Easy, the Hard encounters are removed from the map. If he picks Hard, there is no change. You should also tie this dialog into the story so that the player can't go through it more than once.
There are drawbacks to this though. For example, if you've got a part of your quest that requires you to kill all the enemies in an area to proceed, you've suddenly got a problem when some of them are hidden from the player if he picks Easy (you actually can't hide them at all in this case). You also can't use other triggers to hide enemies, a feature that can be useful for some of the fancier tricks in the Foundry.
I have been using alot of patrolling encounters. If the player takes the Leroy Jenkins approach to the zone, then yeah, it's going to be next to impossible, since there is a lot of overlap.
A previous poster mentioned using stacked encounters that are spread to allow pulling. This is why I let patrolling encounters overlap. The player needs to be cautious and smart.
_______________________________________
There stands my golden tower, bright and bold,
far beyond the bounds of your imagination.
Yeah I was kinda wondering how higher level testing would work. For example heres my theory...again my theory.
At level 15 you can actually start a foundry quest/mission/etc
When you start a foundry you can only test a character up to level 10
Perhaps at level 30 in the game you can test a character up to level 20
40 then 30
50 then 40
60 then 50
Again my theory. But yeah I had no idea that a level 31 player would have extreme difficulties compared to a level 21 player.
Like the original poster said; perhaps I should just make a statement saying "published first version only for testing/feedback and to immediately pull down after"
I do think my quest/map shouldnt be solo'd anyways but perhaps targetted towards lower level players. Under 20..solo; over 20 group
I guess we will see what happens. thanks
It is super hard to balance how any given class is going to fare in a dungeon where encounter are stacked. I simply won't build a "run it in 10 minutes" dungeon because the time and effort it takes to create a story, create the zones, make the quests, drop encounters and all the other stuff is worth more than that.
I do believe it is possible to stack encounters, but it takes some finesse... Here is what I do and for the most part it works pretty well. Fast and challenging encounters and oh yeah you are gonna drink a few potions, but it will be a fun and rewarding time:
Start with your main encounter. If it is a boss area I'm dropping a smallish group of HARD. One will become my boss and the others "helpers" - stagger them out and place them how you want. Next I'm gonna drop AT LEAST two easy encounters and usually I go with ranged. What tends to happen is the player rushes head strong into the boss and before they realize it the room was a bit more crowded than they thought, but it is not game stopping. Most classes can obliterate easy level archers in a few hits - take out the trash before sitting down to the main course.
It works and while sometimes if I have placed poorly it can be a little too hard for the most part it is right on. Anyway... just my two cents on the subject.
Some of us want a challenge and want to group up. Some of us want to create content that isnt a cake walk.
Hopefully these people who are doing this are stating it so in their Foundry mission overview. If you're ignoring it, please dont mark them down or complain about it.
But you are absolutely right about the testing of said missions. None should be published without being ready for public consumption.
Once again, this discussion isn't really about group quests. It's about solo quests with stacked encounters. If your quest is marked as group content then all bets are off.
OP: Correct me if I am mistaken...
I took the OP post to mean basically this:
"Hey, all you newcomers to Foundry Quest Creation - WELCOME! Here's a tip: when creating your quests, please understand your play-test preview character is a low-level character and your quest will be super-easy to blast through. It gets a lot tougher at higher levels. Please do not mistakenly stack your encounters because play-testing feels too easy - with the intention of making it more challenging."
The discussion in general, I believe, is really directed at and for the benefit of newcomers to the Foundry who don't understand how the level-balancing works. Hell, I even fell into this trap but quickly realized what was going on. The play-test character is able to blast through your placed encounters (even the "hard" level Goblins, etc.). So you tend to add another until it "feels right".
But not realizing that level balancing itself isn't balanced as encounter difficulty increases *exponentially* higher in comparison to actual leveling.
This discussion isn't intended as a debate about experienced Foundry Author styles or techniques. it isn't even about quests designed for groups or solo quests.
WE. GET. IT.
This discussion is intended for the newcomer for the simple purpose of helping them understand a *common mistake*. If you intentionally stack your encounters because you want to create an epic combat zone and know what the ramifications are - then go for it. Just make sure to note that at or near the top of your description.
Don't use the excuse of "no one actually reads the description" - that's BS. The people who prefer "adventuring" to "hack-n-slash" DO read the descriptions, top to bottom. So if you your quest is intentionally made that difficult then SAY SO.
Otherwise - if you're just trying to create a fun, interesting quest in the style or tradition of *most* other quests in game: then please don't stack encounters simply because you feel your quest isn't challenging enough. Remember: 90% of Neverwinter game players are not min-maxers or MMO-Fanbois. They're just here looking for entertainment. Not spend 45 minutes on a 20-minute quest (which is what happens at higher levels with too many encounters: they become harder, which means they take a LOT longer).
Likewise, sometimes on boss fights I may stay an extra encounter off to the side ... to give the 'boss' a harder situation. The problem we have is this: Some people want harder content - however, some mobs scale harder than other mobs at higher levels. The mind flayers are a great example of this. The mind flayer hard encounter is not that difficult until level 30+, they they start using some crazy aoe and CC abilities that can kill low hp players outright. Yet to a level 1, they are a joke.
Another thing I experimented on is this: I made a NPC that the player can talk to... that will despawn specific mobs currently on the field. I called this NPC: Click me for EASY. I then made my first quest in this foundry to speak to the main NPC and the main NPC explained this was a tough foundry meant for groups of 2 or 3+companions. I then explained that there was a NPC bear called, "Click me for EASY." that can reduce the number of spawns I had in most areas.
This now gives the player a choice to either play this foundry with some friends or solo. However, the next that you read on the foundry board also explains this and explains that this is really meant for 2+ or 3+companions.
As for testing quests. I know what you mean. My first (and so far only) foundry mission/quest is to make barbecue sauce. (sure there is a side event of a Drow invasion to the surface world and an orc group that is pillaging and razing the country size followed by a demon that crossed the planes into our realm - never-the-less, the main quest like is about making barbecue sauce). As a result, originally, i had the player go fetch physical items (water, herbs, and peppers). Three items that they needed to have in their inventory. WHAT a waste. Bag space is a premium and I am forcing players to lose 3 bag spots to a barbecue quest.
I redesigned the quest to roleplay and make the player make believe he or she is actually grabbing items - but in reality they are just interacting with an object that gives them a text that says they "recieved quest item." Then when they return it the quest NPC roleplays and tells them in text that the player successfully gave him the non existent item.
All well and done in theory. What I did not know was this: my final quest had some logic in it that required all three items to be in the inventory to be acomplished. I published this quest, and the game did not even inform me that it was not possible to actually get the items and thus not possible to finish the quest. So if someone ran it and it took them 30 minutes to 45 minutes... they could not finish it. Luckily, I ran my own quest and realized I could not finish it and the mistake I made. I had to quickly enter my quest, and remove the dialogue option that forced the player to have the three barbecue items that we are roleplaying that they received.
If I did not play my own adventure and did the quest - who knows how long that quest would be out there... and NO ONE would be able to complete it. It was an honest mistake. However, the game did not tell me it was not finishable and I forgot about the logic in the last quest I placed there.
One more reason to use one of the many, many buttons in the Foundry to play the quest prior to publishing. Constant playing and reading from the game mode version as opposed to the editing version will allow you to not only get a feel for your quest, but make sure parts work, things drop, monsters spawn, i's are dotted and t's are crossed.
Yep I am in the same boat exactly. I am making my first quest and there's an area with about 3 hard Mindflayer encounters with another elite guy on top of that as the midpoint of the quest (with something harder for the end).
Right now on my TR and with the guardian friend I run with (and our companions) we would absolutely decimate that without even a blink (both level 20), but it seems the balance is all over the place with other classes and levels.
I'm probably going to have to redo the encounters in my quest given this information.
I've definitely been running through it in game mode to test everything frequently, but it seems like the Foundry character doesn't have any real skills or abilities and the at-will abilities rarely seem to do anything for me (errors I think). I'm guessing I probably have to delete and recreate the guy. I've been basing the encounters on what I thought I could do with my TR at level 20, for the most part, half out of laziness as I need to make so many changes anyway that running through it right now is low priority in terms of the fighting.
it makes it very difficult to test things without having to put it 'live' first. The amount of bugs and combat balancing stuff I've encountered is pretty astounding.
The problem sometimes happens when you test mobs at low level then at level 30+ they become... insane.
Mind Flayers "hard" encounters are easy and a joke at level 29 and under. yet at level 30+ they can stun lock you - if you are not careful and they hit hard. At level 40-ish 1 of their'SPECIAL' hits take about 25 to 30% of my hit points which is not something they do at low levels. Not all mobs scale linear to the player. Translation: Like players, some mobs get access to more powerful spells and abilities and attacks at later levels. As a result, some of the easier encounters become VERY HARD at late levels.
A "hard" encounter that is easy at low levels maybe impossible to some classes at higher levels.
EXACTLY. And then you see people stacked 2 or 3+ of them and call it a 'solo' quest that isn't hard as long as you 'know how to play'. IE: They have never played it above level 30.
If we can place a description in a quest to say that the quest is tuned for solo play, or group play + companions ... why can you not also say which level of character the quest is tuned for?
Yes, I know that you don't want to alienate higher level players, but which would you rather have: A quest that can't be completed by a level 60 with decent gear and receive a poor rating, or a quest that is a complete joke at level 10 which is your primary audience for that zone ... and receive a poor rating?
Alternatively, you can push out an alternate version of the same quest that is tuned for the other spectrum of levels. I know Foundry slots can be at a premium to dedicated quest builders, however you can always create another free account as well.
Just my 2 copper.
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Have the player talk to the NPC setting the difficulty of the map and have them say how many are in the party based on your set difficulty tiers. Solo, party, 3+ members or whatever.
My main problem with setting the maps difficulty through dialogue is the out of character nature of the conversation. But that seems an elegant way to blend it into the quest without stretching the suspension of disbelief of the players.
Part 1: Death comes to Neverwinter - NW-DL8EPHRAT
So thank you for posting this, as I think it helped me a little on my quests.
Correct. The Dialogue prompt works per map - and only if the mobs are already spawned when the phrase is said. If the mobs appear after the phrase is said... the prompt does not work... unless it is re-triggered.
I have a map called, "Black Heart's Barbecue Dilemma" where I do stack a few "HARD" encounters together and add a few roaming (patrolling) units that are also "HARD" as well. I got several request to make it solo... so I placed a BEAR in the encounter (near the campfire). If you talk to the bear - the bear will say a specific Unique phrase. I have a few mobs set to disappear if that phase is ever said. No other NPC or item says that specific phrase - or anything close to that phrase. All the "HARD" encounters I have set to disappear with that phrase... go disappear. I have a good 7 to 12 encounters that will despawn if you talk to the bear (assuming you have not killed them already).
I played around with is. I had a few mobs spawn or appear after a mission was complete and I tested it out by talking to the bear ahead of time. The mobs still appeared, because the even though the bear said its dialogue.
Since the bear is something you can use at any time - if a player dies too much they can try talking to the bear to despawn some of the mobs - and I even explain early on... it works for SOME of the encounters but none of the boss or quest encounters are effected.
On suggestion, is to tell the players that EACH map has a bear... and if you want to make it easier per map they need to talk to the bear. Why do I use a bear? TEDDY BEARS are nice and cuddly, of course.
look at my test map, I think that's the way to do it, @visigoth18
Luckily, I'm seeing less of these problems in newer quests. I get the impression that the authors are learning, which is very nice indeed.
They don't scale to party yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually did. The Foundry also shows the aggro radius of the encounter.
I have one fairly low level quest I ran for my table top group that ends with the party stumbling upon a very young dragon who has enlisted some kobold worshippers to help it create a lair. It's designed to be a slowly ramping challenge up to finding out the "god" the kobolds keep calling out to is the wyrmling. I can not now nor do I think ever will be able to include it as a foundry mission due to an inability to ramp up the difficulty in the manner I had in my table top adventure. This is completely disregarding the fact I can not create a "boss" encounter with the dragon at the end.
In the interim if Cryptic wants to help alleviate this issue they could put in encounter overlap exclusion. Give me a checkbox that I can un-check but starts enabled that makes it so you can not place another encounter inside the encounter radius of another encounter. For those wanting to do encounters that are triggered, ramped encounters, etc they can un-check the box but for those who are more novice this will stop this from being an issue.