Yep. I would have thought this balance issue would have been at the top of their list. Since, you know, it a pretty ****ing huge bug!
Not really a "bug" , most healers I have played always provided more argo than the tank. but to balance that there were runes or potions to lower argo on the healer or raise it on the tank. could be an easier solution than rewriting the healers or tanks.
Just a suggestion.
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dvorakkMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
really people were getting epic dread vault gear in reg dread vault? thats messed up and i wish i woulda known lol jkjk but really..
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eqballzzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think the problem with healer aggro is that clerics are not letting other party members generate any threat before they start throwing HoTs out. When I play my cleric in dungeons, I dps for the first 10 seconds or so and get my divinity up, I only throw heals out when people get below 50% HP. Also, the health gain on hit thing doesn't seem to draw any aggro, and it does a massive amount of healing if you put it on everything. So yeah I really don't have any problems on my cleric. Maybe I'll make a video of me running a dungeon or something... But I need to level a lot more before that happens :P
The issue isn't initial aggro. The issue is on boss fights. Every boss fight includes some form of "huge numbers of adds spawning" throughout the fight. When adds spawn they have 0 aggro on anyone and since there are typically HoTs ticking at that moment they instantly aggro the cleric. It's not usually that difficult to pull them off if you have an on the ball GWF or maybe CW but even if they react fast the damage of many adds plus ground AE dmg added to the 40% self heal debuff and it becomes unmanageable very fast unless you have 2 clerics (which is a dumb requirement).
However, if you still want to post your video of you managing the aggro issue by waiting 10 seconds to heal at the start of the fight by all means do it once you hit the epic dungeons so we can all be entertained by your mastery of cleric aggro!
BTW, I don't think they should just remove healer aggro because it would be stupid easy if they did but they need to change the dynamic of de-threat to fit the mechanics of the fights. Maybe instead of soothe giving a flat de-threat amount it gives a "pulse" of threat wipe every 15 seconds. That way the cleric will still get threat but it will at least drop at some point after the adds spawn and give a bit of breathing room to build divinity and cast heals.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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accident4proneMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Not really a "bug" , most healers I have played always provided more argo than the tank. but to balance that there were runes or potions to lower argo on the healer or raise it on the tank. could be an easier solution than rewriting the healers or tanks.
Just a suggestion.
I would be OK with losing a few of my enchantments for a new "sooth enchantment" just to make it a little less painful.
Healer agro is fine - think in pvp who do you go for first the healer or the tank ?? come on guys dont be so stupid its a common sense mechanic and its brilliant - deal with it , its AI thats not <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> its designed to be a challenge and will make you keep aware of keeping your healer alive. its not like its hard to get the threat back. get smarter and utilize the tools/team members better - a cleric than can heal and kite is a tank basically, dont qq - get better
the AI appears to be smarter than the population of this game - protect your healer. pretty freakin simple.
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accident4proneMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The problem is some of the bosses at lvl 60 can take you down fast if you get caught unaware even if you are a good tank. This concept does not always work plus in some dungeons you get constant adds while your fighting the boss mob and those often tend to aggro on the cleric instantly. Try Liar of the mad dragon sometime and watch how the demons instant aggro on you when they spawn.
That even happens in mid level dungeon. I spent the last encounter of crag crypt kitting a horde of mad adds, heck even the pirate jumped at me from time to time (why did I keep getting aggro back? Yes there was a tank and he even used threat skills since I kept seeing those (X and !)). I have all the -threat% feat and passive. That does not help a bit. What did not help either were the DPS hitting on the pirate and ignoring the poor cleric who was playing conga line with cuthroats, fangs, hexer and deathbound (sp?) adds .
I shiver at the thought on how bad it will be later.
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cabalaceMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Still wish something would be done about healer threat/agro...
I really second this comment. When in dungeon especially having those heavy hard hitting mobs all come at ya and u are helpless to do anything when ur Divine's gone and u cant keep throwing them away any longer ...... T_T
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letriconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
The problem is some of the bosses at lvl 60 can take you down fast if you get caught unaware even if you are a good tank. This concept does not always work plus in some dungeons you get constant adds while your fighting the boss mob and those often tend to aggro on the cleric instantly. Try Liar of the mad dragon sometime and watch how the demons instant aggro on you when they spawn.
that is the greatest example... and yes all clerics do there healing when there is serious danger. but even if u dont heal when u hit the mob so u can get ur divinity up u build anyways again aggro from passives skills that AGAIN heals ur group... so with everything u do Clerics just build all the time aggro from overheal (even us i said with dmging the mobs) anyway i hope they drop a little the healthreat aggro
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bloodletter24Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 44Arc User
edited May 2013
Pvp could really use some balancing. TR do way to much damage. They got a one hit kill button which is not right. You cannot dodge it move away from it at all. You got GFs shield bashing you from a long ways away which cannot be dodged if you are close. I mean they can pretty much keep you on the ground tell you are dead. WHich does not take them long. I have seen them out dps dps classes which makes no sense. Oh and please fix the dailies! Cryptic you guys have put out a awsome game and I thank you. But now we need some serious balancing. PerfectWorld you suck! Had to make this awsome game a pay to win.
Healer agro is fine - think in pvp who do you go for first the healer or the tank ?? come on guys dont be so stupid its a common sense mechanic and its brilliant - deal with it , its AI thats not <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> its designed to be a challenge and will make you keep aware of keeping your healer alive. its not like its hard to get the threat back. get smarter and utilize the tools/team members better - a cleric than can heal and kite is a tank basically, dont qq - get better
the AI appears to be smarter than the population of this game - protect your healer. pretty freakin simple.
i go for the CW
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accident4proneMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Pvp could really use some balancing. TR do way to much damage. They got a one hit kill button which is not right. You cannot dodge it move away from it at all. You got GFs shield bashing you from a long ways away which cannot be dodged if you are close. I mean they can pretty much keep you on the ground tell you are dead. WHich does not take them long. I have seen them out dps dps classes which makes no sense. Oh and please fix the dailies! Cryptic you guys have put out a awsome game and I thank you. But now we need some serious balancing. PerfectWorld you suck! Had to make this awsome game a pay to win.
Let me guess you play CW?
I see there is no mention of their stun locks and 20k crit hits
Healer agro is fine - think in pvp who do you go for first the healer or the tank ?? come on guys dont be so stupid its a common sense mechanic and its brilliant - deal with it , its AI thats not <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> its designed to be a challenge and will make you keep aware of keeping your healer alive. its not like its hard to get the threat back. get smarter and utilize the tools/team members better - a cleric than can heal and kite is a tank basically, dont qq - get better
Different mechanic. You cannot compare PVP.
In PVP even if the tank use threat skills to force you to attack him, will you switch back from cleric to tank ? No you do not.
Furthermore use of "common sense mechanic" well what you are saying is not common sense. In fact common sense would be that dumb animals would attack the nearest player not the class specific player .
Here is common sense :
1) DPS build aggro
2) special tank skil build aggro
3) healing build aggro but less than DPS.
4) all is balanced that by timing heal and dps, you can leave the tank the aggro on a boss, while still wining the DPS race for a certain GS
5) ADDS only attack new threat once they spawn, they do not take into accoutn existing effects
The problem are likely 3) and 5).
In my experience 5) is not correct : if you have a running HoT it seems that ADDS take it into account and beeline for the healer. They should not. They should react as beelining to first damager, or nearest player. But it seems that in some circumstance, with HoTs running on many player, you can actually aggro a whole wave of adds.
Also 3) when they changed cleric to make DPS and heal at the same time a bit, I am willing to bet than instead of building aggro for DPS and Heal and taking the "greater" value, I bet that instead they *add* aggro value for both.
So when calculating threats instead of having New_threat=Max(Heal_aggro, DPS_Aggro) they instead do some kind of New_aggro=heal_aggro+DPS_aggro.
And here is the cincher : most probably DPS aggro and heal aggro are values which are too near or overvaluated making it so that the healer build aggro far quicker than DPS or tank.
Just a gut feeling seeing the reaction of adds and normal mobs to DPS killing them, while I was barely scratching them. Hint : in such cases they should be heading for the DPS. Not the healer.
fix the **** agro system!!! (3x! = important)
GF need to build up such more agro with his skill, you cant hold the agro is the cleric is doing a single hot on you...
also the TAB ability from GF is so lame...
fix the **** agro system!!! (3x! = important)
GF need to build up such more agro with his skill, you cant hold the agro is the cleric is doing a single hot on you...
also the TAB ability from GF is so lame...
Good call on the "marked" tab ability, it needs more than a 1 hit clear. Sometimes i get hit before the animation is done then its gone haha.
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited May 2013
HoTs shouldn't even generate aggro. That would probably fix half the problems right there.
In PVP even if the tank use threat skills to force you to attack him, will you switch back from cleric to tank ? No you do not.
Furthermore use of "common sense mechanic" well what you are saying is not common sense. In fact common sense would be that dumb animals would attack the nearest player not the class specific player .
Here is common sense :
1) DPS build aggro
2) special tank skil build aggro
3) healing build aggro but less than DPS.
4) all is balanced that by timing heal and dps, you can leave the tank the aggro on a boss, while still wining the DPS race for a certain GS
5) ADDS only attack new threat once they spawn, they do not take into accoutn existing effects
The problem are likely 3) and 5).
In my experience 5) is not correct : if you have a running HoT it seems that ADDS take it into account and beeline for the healer. They should not. They should react as beelining to first damager, or nearest player. But it seems that in some circumstance, with HoTs running on many player, you can actually aggro a whole wave of adds.
Also 3) when they changed cleric to make DPS and heal at the same time a bit, I am willing to bet than instead of building aggro for DPS and Heal and taking the "greater" value, I bet that instead they *add* aggro value for both.
So when calculating threats instead of having New_threat=Max(Heal_aggro, DPS_Aggro) they instead do some kind of New_aggro=heal_aggro+DPS_aggro.
And here is the cincher : most probably DPS aggro and heal aggro are values which are too near or overvaluated making it so that the healer build aggro far quicker than DPS or tank.
Just a gut feeling seeing the reaction of adds and normal mobs to DPS killing them, while I was barely scratching them. Hint : in such cases they should be heading for the DPS. Not the healer.
How do we use autocomplete again? Is there some tab key? For being a complete troll on chat mechanics, it still has some good use like quick party invites. So, is there any tab key for autocomplete?
Here is common sense :
1) DPS build aggro
2) special tank skil build aggro
3) healing build aggro but less than DPS.
4) all is balanced that by timing heal and dps, you can leave the tank the aggro on a boss, while still wining the DPS race for a certain GS
5) ADDS only attack new threat once they spawn, they do not take into accoutn existing effects
Heals have always provided more argo than DPS, but DPS has always been able to take that argo back once lost. not the case here. More often than not (going to 5) the simplest of heals will also qualify as an attack and a heal, thereby doubling the argo and the cleric/healer is sure to die if spawns are nearby (or run around spamming the stone of health). Great write up btw.
While we are here. OMG... PLEASE make a trade channel. there are new players in 'zone' that need help and cannot get it because the sales floor is so congested no one is watching it anymore.
The healing threat is weird. When I am doing foundry quests with my DC with his healer companion, I notice most of the time, even with me standing behind mob with combat advantage, I am unable to peel off the single mob attacking my healer companion. My DC was doing like 1k damage per hit to mob compared to my companion sacred flame which is like 40 damage.
As for dungeon, I do hope that the spawning of adds from boss can be reduce to half or more and make Boss do more type of special attacks. It will make boss fight more interesting. Right now, its just adds, adds and more adds.
Players may no longer sneak past the final boss gate.
Companions
Companions can no longer be auto-summoned in certain states, which would occasionally leave the player with two Companions.
Foundry
Harper contacts now show the correct average playtime of quests.
When talking to Harpers, only projects of the same language as the player will show up by default in the Local search. The Featured search still shows all languages.
Gateway
Account Guard input fields and navigation buttons now display correctly in IE8.
Filter dropdowns on Gateway Mobile no longer overlap.
Gateway Mobile now has an outfit switcher, allowing players to switch between Fashion and Combat outfits.
Quantities of items (such as Astral Diamonds) attached in mail now display correctly.
The order of the filters in the Task List now matches the in-game filter order.
The error message is now more helpful when running into an error on login.
The Auction Search UI on Gateway Mobile has improved.
The translation for Guilds and Auction House lists has improved.
The height of text fields and dropdowns on Gateway Mobile has increased for easier use.
The login page now has a link back to playneverwinter.com.
The fonts on the Gateway login screen have improved.
Rewards and Items
Archon Shield now correctly grants +6 AC, down from +18 AC.
The benefit of the Double Astral Diamond Weekend has been removed in situations where it was still in effect.
The reset timer for chests has been changed in cases where a player logs out and back in again.
Coffer of Astral Diamonds now uses the same reward UI as other reward packs.
Items no longer go into the Overflow Bag if there is room in other bags.
Normal Dread Vault no longer gives Epic Dread Vault loot from the reward chest while the Dungeon event is active.
The Giftwrap Enchantment in the Level 60 Adventurer's Reward box now correctly grants a Rank 5 enchantment.
Stability
Another contributor to Out of Memory graphics crashes has been fixed.
UI
Autocomplete no longer automatically takes focus in chat.
The reset timer for chests has been changed in cases where a player logs out and back in again. ?
so this means no need to log out if DD just activated while inside the dungeon ? right ?
Still no fix for the Idris mid boss dungeon glitch spamming the boss's cutscene each time someone walks up the stairs?
Or health potions counting down after a teleport with no health given and same with steal time counting down while the spell didn't do anything.
Bugs found and reported in early closed beta would be nice to get addressed eventually.
While we are here. OMG... PLEASE make a trade channel. there are new players in 'zone' that need help and cannot get it because the sales floor is so congested no one is watching it anymore.
I agree, its out of control! I brought a few new ppl into the game, and its nearly impossible to help them with basics on the chat.
While we are on the subject of a trade channel....why on earth is there not a TAB out-of-the-box for Party, Guild, and Personal chat?
A lot of people aren't as computer savy, and trying to explain to them how to make and setup a new tab on the polluted world chat is a very frustrating experience, and definitely not a great 1st impression for a new player.
Comments
Not really a "bug" , most healers I have played always provided more argo than the tank. but to balance that there were runes or potions to lower argo on the healer or raise it on the tank. could be an easier solution than rewriting the healers or tanks.
Just a suggestion.
The issue isn't initial aggro. The issue is on boss fights. Every boss fight includes some form of "huge numbers of adds spawning" throughout the fight. When adds spawn they have 0 aggro on anyone and since there are typically HoTs ticking at that moment they instantly aggro the cleric. It's not usually that difficult to pull them off if you have an on the ball GWF or maybe CW but even if they react fast the damage of many adds plus ground AE dmg added to the 40% self heal debuff and it becomes unmanageable very fast unless you have 2 clerics (which is a dumb requirement).
However, if you still want to post your video of you managing the aggro issue by waiting 10 seconds to heal at the start of the fight by all means do it once you hit the epic dungeons so we can all be entertained by your mastery of cleric aggro!
BTW, I don't think they should just remove healer aggro because it would be stupid easy if they did but they need to change the dynamic of de-threat to fit the mechanics of the fights. Maybe instead of soothe giving a flat de-threat amount it gives a "pulse" of threat wipe every 15 seconds. That way the cleric will still get threat but it will at least drop at some point after the adds spawn and give a bit of breathing room to build divinity and cast heals.
I would be OK with losing a few of my enchantments for a new "sooth enchantment" just to make it a little less painful.
not a bad suggestion.
thankyou!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the AI appears to be smarter than the population of this game - protect your healer. pretty freakin simple.
My teammates never seem to know the answer to this question...
That even happens in mid level dungeon. I spent the last encounter of crag crypt kitting a horde of mad adds, heck even the pirate jumped at me from time to time (why did I keep getting aggro back? Yes there was a tank and he even used threat skills since I kept seeing those (X and !)). I have all the -threat% feat and passive. That does not help a bit. What did not help either were the DPS hitting on the pirate and ignoring the poor cleric who was playing conga line with cuthroats, fangs, hexer and deathbound (sp?) adds
I shiver at the thought on how bad it will be later.
I really second this comment. When in dungeon especially having those heavy hard hitting mobs all come at ya and u are helpless to do anything when ur Divine's gone and u cant keep throwing them away any longer ...... T_T
that is the greatest example... and yes all clerics do there healing when there is serious danger. but even if u dont heal when u hit the mob so u can get ur divinity up u build anyways again aggro from passives skills that AGAIN heals ur group... so with everything u do Clerics just build all the time aggro from overheal (even us i said with dmging the mobs) anyway i hope they drop a little the healthreat aggro
i go for the CW
Let me guess you play CW?
I see there is no mention of their stun locks and 20k crit hits
Different mechanic. You cannot compare PVP.
In PVP even if the tank use threat skills to force you to attack him, will you switch back from cleric to tank ? No you do not.
Furthermore use of "common sense mechanic" well what you are saying is not common sense. In fact common sense would be that dumb animals would attack the nearest player not the class specific player
Here is common sense :
1) DPS build aggro
2) special tank skil build aggro
3) healing build aggro but less than DPS.
4) all is balanced that by timing heal and dps, you can leave the tank the aggro on a boss, while still wining the DPS race for a certain GS
5) ADDS only attack new threat once they spawn, they do not take into accoutn existing effects
The problem are likely 3) and 5).
In my experience 5) is not correct : if you have a running HoT it seems that ADDS take it into account and beeline for the healer. They should not. They should react as beelining to first damager, or nearest player. But it seems that in some circumstance, with HoTs running on many player, you can actually aggro a whole wave of adds.
Also 3) when they changed cleric to make DPS and heal at the same time a bit, I am willing to bet than instead of building aggro for DPS and Heal and taking the "greater" value, I bet that instead they *add* aggro value for both.
So when calculating threats instead of having New_threat=Max(Heal_aggro, DPS_Aggro) they instead do some kind of New_aggro=heal_aggro+DPS_aggro.
And here is the cincher : most probably DPS aggro and heal aggro are values which are too near or overvaluated making it so that the healer build aggro far quicker than DPS or tank.
Just a gut feeling seeing the reaction of adds and normal mobs to DPS killing them, while I was barely scratching them. Hint : in such cases they should be heading for the DPS. Not the healer.
GF need to build up such more agro with his skill, you cant hold the agro is the cleric is doing a single hot on you...
also the TAB ability from GF is so lame...
Cryptic really knows what is important for this game:rolleyes:
Good call on the "marked" tab ability, it needs more than a 1 hit clear. Sometimes i get hit before the animation is done then its gone haha.
Heals have always provided more argo than DPS, but DPS has always been able to take that argo back once lost. not the case here. More often than not (going to 5) the simplest of heals will also qualify as an attack and a heal, thereby doubling the argo and the cleric/healer is sure to die if spawns are nearby (or run around spamming the stone of health). Great write up btw.
As for dungeon, I do hope that the spawning of adds from boss can be reduce to half or more and make Boss do more type of special attacks. It will make boss fight more interesting. Right now, its just adds, adds and more adds.
The reset timer for chests has been changed in cases where a player logs out and back in again. ?
so this means no need to log out if DD just activated while inside the dungeon ? right ?
Or health potions counting down after a teleport with no health given and same with steal time counting down while the spell didn't do anything.
Bugs found and reported in early closed beta would be nice to get addressed eventually.
I agree, its out of control! I brought a few new ppl into the game, and its nearly impossible to help them with basics on the chat.
While we are on the subject of a trade channel....why on earth is there not a TAB out-of-the-box for Party, Guild, and Personal chat?
A lot of people aren't as computer savy, and trying to explain to them how to make and setup a new tab on the polluted world chat is a very frustrating experience, and definitely not a great 1st impression for a new player.