theres absolutely nothing wrong with gwf, they do more damage than a rogue in aoe and less in single target. they come out pretty much the same after dungeons. you just have to do it right.
however the concern right now should be what tools in terms of nondmg the gwf brings, atm the meta of this game is dominated by 2x clerics and cws ccing everything. you should nerf the other classes a bit rather than boosting gwf because they really dont need it.
or if you want the easy path just give the gwfs some aoe stun/daze/disarm
maybe you didnt understand what i said... in a group fight of 10+ mobs the TR are outdamaging an AOE GWF by 4x the damage... during that time... not during single target... during single target its 10-15x as much
its both, in an aoe situation none should come close to GWF but a TR can burn em down faster single target than a GWF can groups... so why bring a GWF along when a TR can do the job better? or a CW can just CC and burn em down...?
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cichardMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
maybe you didnt understand what i said... in a group fight of 10+ mobs the TR are outdamaging an AOE GWF by 4x the damage... during that time... not during single target... during single target its 10-15x as much
then hte gwf is doing it wrong like today in epic spell i did 9.8mil damage overall the GWF did 9.1mil and the CW did like 8mil dont remember what the GF and celric had
then hte gwf is doing it wrong like today in epic spell i did 9.8mil damage overall the GWF did 9.1mil and the CW did like 8mil dont remember what the GF and celric had
So basically, it wasn't worth bringing a GWF since another TR would have been better.
and im saying that in the same situation put that same player with the tools of a TR and they would double or triple that dps, thats what everyone is saying.
theres absolutely nothing wrong with gwf, they do more damage than a rogue in aoe and less in single target. they come out pretty much the same after dungeons. you just have to do it right.
however the concern right now should be what tools in terms of nondmg the gwf brings, atm the meta of this game is dominated by 2x clerics and cws ccing everything. you should nerf the other classes a bit rather than boosting gwf because they really dont need it.
or if you want the easy path just give the gwfs some aoe stun/daze/disarm
nerf the astral shield and therell be more gwfs
I don't know about the end game, but leveling a great weapon fighter should NOT be a chore.
I've literally watched clerics of lower level than me use their at-wills to take out bad guys quicker than I can with mine. They hit like HAMSTER. Leveling one should be fun, not a long crappy grind until it becomes fun to play at level cap.
so what you are saying is you had an epic person playing a GWF and a so so player on the TR and cw.... thats about the only thing i can say, having multiple accounts now my TR eats GWF dps for breakfast. my CW is always ahead of GWF and my GWF is very low
So basically, it wasn't worth bringing a GWF since another TR would have been better.
except hten we would of been over whelmed with adds....... a tr isnt gonna be able to handle adds like a GWF can. I had that much damage because of every fight i was standing in one place Dpsing the boss.....
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cichardMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
What you guys have to understand a GWF isnt suppose to do more damage then a TR... they are ment to aoe down adds. which a TR cant do... To coin a phrase from someone famous "Know your ROLE!"
define alot.... alot vs a DC or alot vs what? again an AOE GWF should outdo everyone in damage based on the fact that they are AOE, if they do 50% the damage of a TR and hit AOE i would be happy with that because at that damage after 3 mobs a GWF would out dps a TR, as is they do 1/6 - 1/8 the damage but they can hit aoe so it ends up looking somewhat ok, at 30 a TR will outdps a 60 GWF
define alot.... alot vs a DC or alot vs what? again an AOE GWF should outdo everyone in damage based on the fact that they are AOE, if they do 50% the damage of a TR and hit AOE i would be happy with that because at that damage after 3 mobs a GWF would out dps a TR, as is they do 1/6 - 1/8 the damage but they can hit aoe so it ends up looking somewhat ok, at 30 a TR will outdps a 60 GWF
we out damage a GWF because we have such good sustained single target damage....... GWF are bursty aoe damage which is for killing adds then waiting for the next wave of adds.... and their st dps is so bad that when the adds are gone the TR pulls a head.
gwf are NOT bursty in any way shape or form, you outdamage GWF because you just do a crapload more damage, ive parsed it. and taken it during specific fights (aoe mobs) the TR outdamages a GWF during those alone so its even worse during single target fights, look im not trying to get TR nerfed, you misunderstand me. alot of people ive noticed instantly tried to defend the damage. i love the damage a TR does. i have one... without it dungeons would take way to long... im saying that GWF at this point in time are worthless in dungeon runs because of pitifull damage and bad mechanics bith thiers and the games
No I have never seen in a 10 mob vs relatively equal equiped 1 GWF + 1 TR... the TR damage exceed a GWF. TR always pull away in terms of damage whenever it's down to 1 high hp mob or 1 boss. In a group dungeon did you consider that one of the primary reasons why GWF damage does not go high fast is because there are other AoE caster in the group?? Surely you don't expect amazing total damage when all you do is aoe 3-4 times as opposed to the TR focus damaging a high level mob? Try making a Foundry or even joining a dungeon with 20 give or take a few add rank mobs and have a relatively equally equiped GWF and TR fight them. I assure you by the time the all the mob dies, GWF is far ahead in damage. TR will ONLY pull ahead in terms of damage when the fight drags on too long and this is what you see when you fight high hp mobs or bosses.
I'm guessing none of you whiner consider that GWF is NOT the same as a Warrior. GWFs are hybrids between DPS and tank... meaning they can NEVER damage better then dps class and at the same time NEVER tank better then a tanker class when all class are at their optimum equip. Observe how GF being specialized tank never outdo the damage of a GWF but pwns GWF in terms of tanking? Observe how TR being a specialized damager never outdo GWF in terms of tanking but pwns GWF in terms of damage?
Don't bother bringing CW into the equation... CW are DPS or CC class emphasis on the word OR we can only choose either DPS OR CC. If we CC spec our CW, our total damage in dungeons are on par to that of a GF or worse depending on how tough the dungeon is. Should we were to spec our CW's skill bars to DPS mode we WILL exceed GWF in terms of damage but pale compared to TR, at the cost of having negligible or no CC value.
Pointless talking about healers... they are healers.. end of story.
As a summary know your role. Simple as that. Try looking at how each class fits into their role in a micro sense rather then over generalizing something. Many whiners are under the assumption that GWFs are warriors or beserkers or barbarians, they just simply do not understand their class role well.
Because rogues are alrdy over the top got crited for 40k+ on my fully pvp geared char and Cws cc is over the top .. just sayin mate they need to re think some stuff
What they need to rethink is PVP. Every mmo that comes out ruins PVE in some misguided quest to appease the PVP crowd. Guess what, it'll never work until you make a separate ruleset for abilities vs players and abilities vs. npc's. That's why no game can ever balance both PVE and PVP, because they try to treat them the same when they just aren't.
What they need to rethink is PVP. Every mmo that comes out ruins PVE in some misguided quest to appease the PVP crowd. Guess what, it'll never work until you make a separate ruleset for abilities vs players and abilities vs. npc's. That's why no game can ever balance both PVE and PVP, because they try to treat them the same when they just aren't.
Not true.. it's just part of the community unable to realise that there are classes specializing in pvp but fail utterly in pve and there are classes that excel in pve but fail miserably in pvp, then there's the rest of the classes each leaning to a certain degree to either pvp or pve. Until and unless the player of that class realise which part of the pvp-pve spectrum his class belongs to, he/she/it will always whine.
Not true.. it's just part of the community unable to realise that there are classes specializing in pvp but fail utterly in pve and there are classes that excel in pve but fail miserably in pvp, then there's the rest of the classes each leaning to a certain degree to either pvp or pve. Until and unless the player of that class realise which part of the pvp-pve spectrum his class belongs to, he/she/it will always whine.
Your response just proved my point. You said some are better and pvp and some at pve. They will never be able to balance all for either side because they try to make this all in one solution. They need to treat each side of the game with different rules if they ever want to properly balance either.
Players need to treat it so... not the company or developer.. at least that's who I assumed you meant.
Basically MMORPGs cannot be balanced because they are not meant to be balanced in the first place. If you want a balanced MMO... try looking for a MMO with only 1 class and 1 skill set to choose from.
cichardMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
on trash up till the first boss i am 3rd in dps and 4th in dps if a good geared GF dps spec is tanking but once we get tot hat first boss i pull a head then GWF and CW catch up by the time we get to the 2nd boss i pull a head... and so forth they catch up damage done on trash but i pull a head when it comes to the boss fights... They are working as intended.
on trash up till the first boss i am 3rd in dps and 4th in dps if a good geared GF dps spec is tanking but once we get tot hat first boss i pull a head then GWF and CW catch up by the time we get to the 2nd boss i pull a head... and so forth they catch up damage done on trash but i pull a head when it comes to the boss fights... They are working as intended.
A bit hard trying to translate this.. but.. YES AGREE at least I think tat you meant what I think you meant
Ok Xumina, I know my role... on ALL of my characters, why bring a GWF to a group? they can do.... crappy aoe damage. A TR can kill 5 mobs faster than a GWF can and thats if they are trash, vs elite a TR can kill even more and faster, add in the fact that they can dodge so they dont rely on armor as much and can stealth why choose a GWF? A GWF role is supposed to be take down adds and survive it. At the moment they fail in this horribly their mechanic is to get hit... the opposite of what ANY player wants because only at HALF their hp can they activate a crappy ability <tab> increase attack speed but ..... DECREASES damage.... so they do what exactly? tank? nope cant hold aggro vs anything PERIOD. dps? Nope 2 other classes handle that better than them, CC? Nope what is left for them? they have a role that NOONE wants to fill because they fail at it. they are kicked from parties because they are not needed or usefull to a group.
And no its not whining when im trying to bring up a **** point but to many fanboys keep saying "know your role" they have no role to fill. they constantly get kicked from groups (hell even I have kicked them from groups) simply because they are not needed or wanted. the only reason i am playing one now was i thought " well they cant be all that bad their role is aoe trash " . well guess what... out of all the classes i have, guess which one was the most expensive to level? guess which one is the most expensive to dungeon with? guess which one gets kicked out of groups or people just flat out tell me to get on my TR or CW and i can have any GWF gear that drops..... its sad that people like you constantly think that the "know your role" saying is the fix for everything instead of actually fixing the broken band-aided class. Btw ill give you a hint pre Open beta they were in a good place, not OP not underpowered.... sadly they got nerfed into the ground their trees got reworked to garbage and everything togather made them useless.
As a summary know your role. Simple as that. Try looking at how each class fits into their role in a micro sense rather then over generalizing something. Many whiners are under the assumption that GWFs are warriors or beserkers or barbarians, they just simply do not understand their class role well.
What's my role while leveling up? Is it my role to do it all much slower than other classes because I can't do good damage? Is it by design that the pets I got from my two Founder's packs have no place by my side because I'm completely reliant on my Cleric?
Or, sure, I guess I can blow a ton of cash on potions, but during a boss battle, that 12 second cooldown is a killer. Literally.
I don't have these problems with my role on a rogue or cleric.
PS, someone didn't get the memo that we're not supposed to be berserkers when they named our armor pieces.
I also wonder why my Paragon Path describes me as a torrent of unleashed rage and anger that deals a crushing amount of damage no foe is likely to survive. The only rage and anger comes from the damage that every foe is likely to survive.
Also also I also wonder why my class is described as being an unstoppable force (I'm very stoppable) of damage (no) and steel (feels like leather). I'm supposed to be the epitome of strength, which I'm not, and also supposed to be resilient enough to defend allies in need... which makes me wonder, again, why my Dire Wolf only sees the light of day when I'm ready to turn in a quest.
If my role is to only be able to do things with a group, then at least let me use two or three companions at once.
"I’d also like to talk about class balance. Like any online game, class balance is a huge discussion, both internally and externally. We are definitely hearing this feedback and watching the evolution of PvE and PvP strategies in an effort to help bring everything into alignment. Right now there are a handful of powers and feats that still have bugs associated with them, so we’re working on getting those issues ironed out first. Once we’re able to make sure everything is working properly, our next step will be to start diving into the balance feedback, and do our best to not only make things fair, but also ensure that all of the classes are fun to play in every aspect of the game, from solo play, to group PvE content, to PvP."
. . ..on paragraph 17.. . .which you can surmise from it's placement in the article as a whole and content that any class balance will be implemented after the 10 man raid, public test shard and all the other stuff listed above as they have not even done a proper review of class feedback by the looks of it, so it looks like it will be about a month and a half to two months before you see anything close to a buff or a nerf.. . .now we play the waiting game.
Did you base that on TR vs GWF in seperate group of mobs, or did you based that on them being a team? Let use a simple logic using math and a bit of a common sense. There are 10 mobs and the GWF and TR are both a team. If a GWF kills 10 mobs same time in 4 hits while TR kills in 1 hit, when they are in a group, the TR will only hav a chance to to kill 4 mob before GWF finishing off the remainding 6 mob. Logic dictates that the GWF obviously have a higher total damage then that of TR.
Now we consider 10 elite mobs, where GWF need 10 hits to kill them all.. let's continue giving TR 1 hit kill shall we? TR would have the chance to kill 9 mobs, at first glance we consider that the TR has total damage, but let's now consider that the GWF aoe's the mob, so for every hit a GWF made, the hp of each mob reduced by 1/10 in a constant manner. Hence we can assume that every 1 hit kill the TR made, the damage dealt on the mob will always by less by 1/10. We assume each hit to be 1 damage where 1st kill was made by TR. Total damage dealt by GWF = 9 + 8 + 7 +6 +5 +4 +3 +2 +1 = 45 damage in total. Total damage dealt by TR = 10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2 = 54 damage in total. As you can observe the total damage for mobs with higher hp, TR exceed GWF.
This in a manner illustrates what I am saying which is, when it comes to mobs with low hp, the GWF will always top the charts. The shift happens only when it takes too long to kill the mob, thus allowing the TR's single hit high damage to pull ahead. This is in line with the role of a GWF as a mob clearing machine and a healer protector. Logical don't you think so???
So do you really know your GWF's role well?? I doubt so. Does a class whose role is to clear side mobs from overwhelming the party need to catch agro? That's what GF's are for....Does a class whose role is to clear side mobs from overwhelming party needs CC?? That's what CW's CC are for. Your role is simple. Clear whatever GF is tanking or CW is CC-ing. Surviving adds?? That's what healers are there for...
As for your "crappy" tab ability, did you actually measure your dps? You do realise decreasing damage for a faster hit rate does not equate to a low total damage? Faster hit rate equates to higher hits per sec which equates to a chance of a higher dps. Faster hit rate also equate to more critical chances to hit in a span of time as opposed to normal hit speed. The same fallacy applies to earning experience, hit a 100xp mob that takes 10 minutes or a 10xp mob that takes 10s to kill. Killing the 10xp mob in 10 minutes I gain 6000xp.
Are you so sure pre-open beta GWF was in a good place?? If they were, why did developers nerfed them in the 1st place?? Were there any questions posed to the developers??? Did you make any technical detail to prove your point to them??
Comments
however the concern right now should be what tools in terms of nondmg the gwf brings, atm the meta of this game is dominated by 2x clerics and cws ccing everything. you should nerf the other classes a bit rather than boosting gwf because they really dont need it.
or if you want the easy path just give the gwfs some aoe stun/daze/disarm
nerf the astral shield and therell be more gwfs
then hte gwf is doing it wrong like today in epic spell i did 9.8mil damage overall the GWF did 9.1mil and the CW did like 8mil dont remember what the GF and celric had
So basically, it wasn't worth bringing a GWF since another TR would have been better.
I don't know about the end game, but leveling a great weapon fighter should NOT be a chore.
I've literally watched clerics of lower level than me use their at-wills to take out bad guys quicker than I can with mine. They hit like HAMSTER. Leveling one should be fun, not a long crappy grind until it becomes fun to play at level cap.
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except hten we would of been over whelmed with adds....... a tr isnt gonna be able to handle adds like a GWF can. I had that much damage because of every fight i was standing in one place Dpsing the boss.....
we out damage a GWF because we have such good sustained single target damage....... GWF are bursty aoe damage which is for killing adds then waiting for the next wave of adds.... and their st dps is so bad that when the adds are gone the TR pulls a head.
I'm guessing none of you whiner consider that GWF is NOT the same as a Warrior. GWFs are hybrids between DPS and tank... meaning they can NEVER damage better then dps class and at the same time NEVER tank better then a tanker class when all class are at their optimum equip. Observe how GF being specialized tank never outdo the damage of a GWF but pwns GWF in terms of tanking? Observe how TR being a specialized damager never outdo GWF in terms of tanking but pwns GWF in terms of damage?
Don't bother bringing CW into the equation... CW are DPS or CC class emphasis on the word OR we can only choose either DPS OR CC. If we CC spec our CW, our total damage in dungeons are on par to that of a GF or worse depending on how tough the dungeon is. Should we were to spec our CW's skill bars to DPS mode we WILL exceed GWF in terms of damage but pale compared to TR, at the cost of having negligible or no CC value.
Pointless talking about healers... they are healers.. end of story.
As a summary know your role. Simple as that. Try looking at how each class fits into their role in a micro sense rather then over generalizing something. Many whiners are under the assumption that GWFs are warriors or beserkers or barbarians, they just simply do not understand their class role well.
What they need to rethink is PVP. Every mmo that comes out ruins PVE in some misguided quest to appease the PVP crowd. Guess what, it'll never work until you make a separate ruleset for abilities vs players and abilities vs. npc's. That's why no game can ever balance both PVE and PVP, because they try to treat them the same when they just aren't.
Not true.. it's just part of the community unable to realise that there are classes specializing in pvp but fail utterly in pve and there are classes that excel in pve but fail miserably in pvp, then there's the rest of the classes each leaning to a certain degree to either pvp or pve. Until and unless the player of that class realise which part of the pvp-pve spectrum his class belongs to, he/she/it will always whine.
Your response just proved my point. You said some are better and pvp and some at pve. They will never be able to balance all for either side because they try to make this all in one solution. They need to treat each side of the game with different rules if they ever want to properly balance either.
Basically MMORPGs cannot be balanced because they are not meant to be balanced in the first place. If you want a balanced MMO... try looking for a MMO with only 1 class and 1 skill set to choose from.
A bit hard trying to translate this.. but.. YES AGREE
And no its not whining when im trying to bring up a **** point but to many fanboys keep saying "know your role" they have no role to fill. they constantly get kicked from groups (hell even I have kicked them from groups) simply because they are not needed or wanted. the only reason i am playing one now was i thought " well they cant be all that bad their role is aoe trash " . well guess what... out of all the classes i have, guess which one was the most expensive to level? guess which one is the most expensive to dungeon with? guess which one gets kicked out of groups or people just flat out tell me to get on my TR or CW and i can have any GWF gear that drops..... its sad that people like you constantly think that the "know your role" saying is the fix for everything instead of actually fixing the broken band-aided class. Btw ill give you a hint pre Open beta they were in a good place, not OP not underpowered.... sadly they got nerfed into the ground their trees got reworked to garbage and everything togather made them useless.
What's my role while leveling up? Is it my role to do it all much slower than other classes because I can't do good damage? Is it by design that the pets I got from my two Founder's packs have no place by my side because I'm completely reliant on my Cleric?
Or, sure, I guess I can blow a ton of cash on potions, but during a boss battle, that 12 second cooldown is a killer. Literally.
I don't have these problems with my role on a rogue or cleric.
PS, someone didn't get the memo that we're not supposed to be berserkers when they named our armor pieces.
I also wonder why my Paragon Path describes me as a torrent of unleashed rage and anger that deals a crushing amount of damage no foe is likely to survive. The only rage and anger comes from the damage that every foe is likely to survive.
Also also I also wonder why my class is described as being an unstoppable force (I'm very stoppable) of damage (no) and steel (feels like leather). I'm supposed to be the epitome of strength, which I'm not, and also supposed to be resilient enough to defend allies in need... which makes me wonder, again, why my Dire Wolf only sees the light of day when I'm ready to turn in a quest.
If my role is to only be able to do things with a group, then at least let me use two or three companions at once.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
"I’d also like to talk about class balance. Like any online game, class balance is a huge discussion, both internally and externally. We are definitely hearing this feedback and watching the evolution of PvE and PvP strategies in an effort to help bring everything into alignment. Right now there are a handful of powers and feats that still have bugs associated with them, so we’re working on getting those issues ironed out first. Once we’re able to make sure everything is working properly, our next step will be to start diving into the balance feedback, and do our best to not only make things fair, but also ensure that all of the classes are fun to play in every aspect of the game, from solo play, to group PvE content, to PvP."
. . ..on paragraph 17.. . .which you can surmise from it's placement in the article as a whole and content that any class balance will be implemented after the 10 man raid, public test shard and all the other stuff listed above as they have not even done a proper review of class feedback by the looks of it, so it looks like it will be about a month and a half to two months before you see anything close to a buff or a nerf.. . .now we play the waiting game.
Now we consider 10 elite mobs, where GWF need 10 hits to kill them all.. let's continue giving TR 1 hit kill shall we? TR would have the chance to kill 9 mobs, at first glance we consider that the TR has total damage, but let's now consider that the GWF aoe's the mob, so for every hit a GWF made, the hp of each mob reduced by 1/10 in a constant manner. Hence we can assume that every 1 hit kill the TR made, the damage dealt on the mob will always by less by 1/10. We assume each hit to be 1 damage where 1st kill was made by TR. Total damage dealt by GWF = 9 + 8 + 7 +6 +5 +4 +3 +2 +1 = 45 damage in total. Total damage dealt by TR = 10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2 = 54 damage in total. As you can observe the total damage for mobs with higher hp, TR exceed GWF.
This in a manner illustrates what I am saying which is, when it comes to mobs with low hp, the GWF will always top the charts. The shift happens only when it takes too long to kill the mob, thus allowing the TR's single hit high damage to pull ahead. This is in line with the role of a GWF as a mob clearing machine and a healer protector. Logical don't you think so???
So do you really know your GWF's role well?? I doubt so. Does a class whose role is to clear side mobs from overwhelming the party need to catch agro? That's what GF's are for....Does a class whose role is to clear side mobs from overwhelming party needs CC?? That's what CW's CC are for. Your role is simple. Clear whatever GF is tanking or CW is CC-ing. Surviving adds?? That's what healers are there for...
As for your "crappy" tab ability, did you actually measure your dps? You do realise decreasing damage for a faster hit rate does not equate to a low total damage? Faster hit rate equates to higher hits per sec which equates to a chance of a higher dps. Faster hit rate also equate to more critical chances to hit in a span of time as opposed to normal hit speed. The same fallacy applies to earning experience, hit a 100xp mob that takes 10 minutes or a 10xp mob that takes 10s to kill. Killing the 10xp mob in 10 minutes I gain 6000xp.
Are you so sure pre-open beta GWF was in a good place?? If they were, why did developers nerfed them in the 1st place?? Were there any questions posed to the developers??? Did you make any technical detail to prove your point to them??
I'm guessing no. Hence, you are whining.
GWF is a tank hybrid.... in point of fact, with how GF threat is broken, GWF is the only warrior type capable of tanking at all.
Kudos to you. Somebody with a brain.