GWF is NOT A DPS. If you're getting kicked from parties, it's because you 1) don't comprehend the class role and 2) suck as a result of 1.
GWF is a tank hybrid.... in point of fact, with how GF threat is broken, GWF is the only warrior type capable of tanking at all.
you obviously have not played either class at all or have not played them properly as a GF can out dps a GWF any way of the week when speced too, where as the GWF DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A TAUNT. so pray tell, how is it supposed to keep agro if it is "a tank hybrid" ?
you obviously have not played either class at all or have not played them properly as a GF can out dps a GWF any way of the week when speced too, where as the GWF DOES NOT EVEN HAVE A TAUNT. so pray tell, how is it supposed to keep agro if it is "a tank hybrid" ?
Are you a GWF? GF can only hold aggro on 1 single target. GWF can hold aggro on multiple targets. You might want to reconsider redoing your feats. Most GWFs I know are dumb and try to build single target burst and cry that rogues do more damage than them.
GWF is NOT A DPS. If you're getting kicked from parties, it's because you 1) don't comprehend the class role and 2) suck as a result of 1.
GWF is a tank hybrid.... in point of fact, with how GF threat is broken, GWF is the only warrior type capable of tanking at all.
Why is it described as being able to deal damage first and then somewhat briefly mentioned that you have staying power?
If the Great Weapon Fighter is a Hybrid, then why are there Feat trees that don't give you any Hybrid functionality? Are they just there to weed out the people who don't know how to play? Seems to me you should have your choice in what you do with your class based on which Feat trees you put points into. If all the trees are supposed to do the same thing, then why do I take so much damage? Supposed to be part tank, right?
Now, this tells me that I'm supposed to be DPS. I'm billed as a damage dealer first. So why is it I need to hit a mob four times with my big-*** sword before I do as much damage to it as a cleric's little light javelin thing?
Why is it that the tank part of my class role is billed as "secondary"?
I mean, I'll stop complaining when you show me something official about us not being damage dealers. So far all the official stuff I can find (in-game, wiki), is telling me otherwise.
Are you a GWF? GF can only hold aggro on 1 single target. GWF can hold aggro on multiple targets. You might want to reconsider redoing your feats. Most GWFs I know are dumb and try to build single target burst and cry that rogues do more damage than them.
I'm sorry but you are wrong, I have made my point and now am going to stop replying as you obviously have not played either class, if you continue to persist in this manner i hope you come to your senses soon.
I'm sorry but you are wrong, I have made my point and now am going to stop replying as you obviously have not played either class, if you continue to persist in this manner i hope you come to your senses soon.
Yeah, your reply shows that you don't play GWF so you have no idea what you are talking about. Your point is that you don't play GWF and theory crafting based on what the majority of the people on these forums cry about. News flash, majority of the players on these forums are bad, including yourself.
Yeah, your reply shows that you don't play GWF so you have no idea what you are talking about. Your point is that you don't play GWF and theory crafting based on what the majority of the people on these forums cry about. News flash, majority of the players on these forums are bad, including yourself.
No. He's right. You're pretty much completely wrong. Even specced for tanking, I can't pull aggro off a cleric doing nothing but healing using Come and Get it and Daring Shout and my dps is so low it feels like I'm not doing much to save them.
GWF's need tweaked. They need a bit of damage and a bit more survivability. They're a fun class, but groups really just don't like seeing them because well... they aren't that great at either of their hybrid (tank/dps) roles.
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Did you base that on TR vs GWF in seperate group of mobs, or did you based that on them being a team? Let use a simple logic using math and a bit of a common sense. There are 10 mobs and the GWF and TR are both a team. If a GWF kills 10 mobs same time in 4 hits while TR kills in 1 hit, when they are in a group, the TR will only hav a chance to to kill 4 mob before GWF finishing off the remainding 6 mob. Logic dictates that the GWF obviously have a higher total damage then that of TR.this part right here is wrong, in theory and in practice the GWF takes many more hits than 4 to kill the group so in 4 hits the TR kills 4 reducing the dps of the GWF by reducing the mob count, now add in the fact that its around 8 hits to kill those mobs if you want to live that tr can now pick off 8 mobs before you kill your ... 2 that are left.
Now we consider 10 elite mobs, where GWF need 10 hits to kill them all.. let's continue giving TR 1 hit kill shall we? TR would have the chance to kill 9 mobs, at first glance we consider that the TR has total damage, but let's now consider that the GWF aoe's the mob, so for every hit a GWF made, the hp of each mob reduced by 1/10 in a constant manner. Hence we can assume that every 1 hit kill the TR made, the damage dealt on the mob will always by less by 1/10. We assume each hit to be 1 damage where 1st kill was made by TR. Total damage dealt by GWF = 9 + 8 + 7 +6 +5 +4 +3 +2 +1 = 45 damage in total. Total damage dealt by TR = 10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2 = 54 damage in total. As you can observe the total damage for mobs with higher hp, TR exceed GWF.
Im loving how you skew the numbers completely you might want to see this again that the GWF hits those 10 mobs yes but for every one that the TR kills the GWF is loosing dps (stay with me now) so your dmg dealt by gwf would be 9+7+5+3 +1 = 25 while the TR is 10+9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1=55 ... so over double on a group of mobs
This in a manner illustrates what I am saying which is, when it comes to mobs with low hp, the GWF will always top the charts. The shift happens only when it takes too long to kill the mob, thus allowing the TR's single hit high damage to pull ahead. This is in line with the role of a GWF as a mob clearing machine and a healer protector. Logical don't you think so???
Yes i would think so, except there is no way a GWF can clear them in time to save the healer, so the healers just double stack astrals it would be better to have a TR clear the trash as a dead mob = 0 damage vs a mob with 80% 70% 60% hp still does 100% damage.
So do you really know your GWF's role well?? I doubt so. Does a class whose role is to clear side mobs from overwhelming the party need to catch agro? That's what GF's are for....Does a class whose role is to clear side mobs from overwhelming party needs CC?? That's what CW's CC are for. Your role is simple. Clear whatever GF is tanking or CW is CC-ing. Surviving adds?? That's what healers are there for... so yes i know my GWF role very well, i also happen to seem to know numbers better than you, our roll is simple non existent at this point in time, damage alot of mobs or kill them 1 at a time.... id rather have 9 mobs attacking someone than 10... then 8 then 7 then 6 then 5..... so the person they are attacking takes reduced damage every time a mob dies vs full damage from only partially damaged mobs
As for your "crappy" tab ability, did you actually measure your dps? You do realise decreasing damage for a faster hit rate does not equate to a low total damage? Faster hit rate equates to higher hits per sec which equates to a chance of a higher dps. Faster hit rate also equate to more critical chances to hit in a span of time as opposed to normal hit speed. The same fallacy applies to earning experience, hit a 100xp mob that takes 10 minutes or a 10xp mob that takes 10s to kill. Killing the 10xp mob in 10 minutes I gain 6000xp.
but the difference isnt like this, its more of hit a 100xp mob for 10 minutes or hit 10 xp mobs that take 1 min 15 seconds to kill...
Are you so sure pre-open beta GWF was in a good place?? If they were, why did developers nerfed them in the 1st place?? Were there any questions posed to the developers??? Did you make any technical detail to prove your point to them??
I'm guessing no. Hence, you are whining.
again im guessing yes since even playerbase says the same thing, GWF are in a horrible place atm and need alot of rework to make them better, if you want us to clear adds make it so we can at a faster rate than a single target dps
ive played the whole clear the adds on my TR and you know what i still did more damage than the GWF sure he had more kills... he killed all my <5% hp mobs that i burst down but that doesnt mean he did it.... i dropped the hp he just came in and flicked them to death.
No. He's right. You're pretty much completely wrong. Even specced for tanking, I can't pull aggro off a cleric doing nothing but healing using Come and Get it and Daring Shout and my dps is so low it feels like I'm not doing much to save them.
GWF's need tweaked. They need a bit of damage and a bit more survivability. They're a fun class, but groups really just don't like seeing them because well... they aren't that great at either of their hybrid (tank/dps) roles.
Nobody can take aggro from cleric once they start healing like crazy I tell my cleric to chill back for a bit first while I take aggro on all the adds, but this only works in the beginning of the fight. Once the fight starts, best I can do is follow her around and try to aoe the trash down as fast as possible.
I have said this in other threads, and I'll say it again...I play a GWF (hit level 40) and in every dungeon/skirmish I am either #1 or #2 for both damage and mob slain. I just don't understand all this complaining about the class. For me it's been a total blast to play.
Maybe I'm different, but I look at the class like I did my Armsman in Dark Age of Camelot (for all the old folks out there). I may not do as much damage as rogues or casters, but I don't have to panic if I get the mobs attention. I can stay in close and deal out single and aoe damage.
I think people don't understand this class completely and that leads to misunderstanding about what they should be capable of.
Can be used in PVE also. If you still suck *** as GWF with this build, please play another class. I guarantee you'll still suck with the other class so.... don't know what else to say to you.
I have said this in other threads, and I'll say it again...I play a GWF (hit level 40) and in every dungeon/skirmish I am either #1 or #2 for both damage and mob slain. I just don't understand all this complaining about the class. For me it's been a total blast to play.
Maybe I'm different, but I look at the class like I did my Armsman in Dark Age of Camelot (for all the old folks out there). I may not do as much damage as rogues or casters, but I don't have to panic if I get the mobs attention. I can stay in close and deal out single and aoe damage.
I think people don't understand this class completely and that leads to misunderstanding about what they should be capable of.
Two things: Mind sharing your build? Have you played other classes?
If I could kill a trash mob in 4 hits or an elite mob in 10 hits on GWF then I wouldn't be complaining about GWF being bad.
Even during unstoppable and Slam(5 target cap)+WMS going on max targets you're looking at ~13000/s if you're hitting all of those targets cleanly.
If a TR is fighting a champion mob at the same time their initial Duelist Flurry will put them behind the GWF. Since we're using slam for GWF, let's use Lurker's Assault to start the fight (and DF stacks), dealing ~3700/s for two seconds, after which the bleeds will be applied (as well as the flurry) and the third second of DF will proc for ~34000. TR will then fire off an instant cast Lashing for ~50000.
In a perfect scenario for the GWF, 4s into the fight they should look like this for total damage done:
GWF: 52000
TR: 91400
In 4s, a TR has nearly doubled a GWFs output under their best conditions and that's before a TR has applied 10 stacks of bleeds which is ~40% of their damage output (more if you manage to use Lurker's on each large HP mob you fight as you can get bleed ticks over 15k).
After all the trash is dead (because the CW killed it) and you're fighting Elites/Champions only, you're in the TR's home court and the only thing they're doing is pulling ahead while you hang around waiting for them to get done with whatever they're fighting so they can kill your mob.
Alternatively, if a GWF was fighting a single champion mob (keeping its attacks away from the TR/group) they would be doing the following damage in 4s (best conditions: Slam active, hitting 5 mobs, all encounters crit, spam unstoppable)
Slam+WMS->IBS->Flourish->WMS->(Unstoppable)Sure Strikex3 (this is more like 10s)
52000+1000+18000+14000+1000+15000=101000
The only problem is that in this time a TR has done 153000 plus 6 seconds of lurkers buffed bleeds and they don't need everything to crit or be a perfect scenario for it to happen either.
So if we're AoE'ing, we're not doing more damage than a TR (or a CW) and if we're doing single target we have to do a 10s rotation to still come out at 2/3's of the damage of a TR without accounting for 40% of their damage.
A GWF has to do both of these roles in a dungeon because there isn't always trash to kill and it certainly isn't always neatly stacked.
Right now, TR bleed stacks do not proc for multiple TR's, meaning that only one of them can apply their bleeds. This makes the second TR (if your group has 2) 40% less effective than the other (which usually comes out to them being fairly equal until whichever TR applies bleeds on the final boss pulls ahead). Even with this 40% damage loss (which the devs have stated they will be fixing so that there is no loss) a GWF could not do more damage at the end of a run than any of the TRs. For GWF to be viable, it can't be getting its damage doubled when hitting the maximum number of targets at once by someone hitting one target. For GWF to be viable, it cannot be getting its damage doubled in half the time when fighting a single target.
A CW could come in and shine more light on how much more damage you do than a GWF (and more importantly, your utility), my perspective is having played both the classes in all dungeons through Castle Never and I just play my TR now until GWF gets some love. I like the way GWF plays way more, but it really feels like you're being carried because of how pathetic you are.
Edit:
I always see people come in and say GWF is fine, and most of them are not doing T2. The reason GWF is fine from 30-60 T1 is because you are fighting mobs with lower HP pools so your piece of the pie is bigger. There are less mobs, less champions, etc. TR doesn't get a huge opportunity to burst down big mobs outside of the bosses. CW could still come out ahead or tie a GWF but the smaller HP pools work in a GWFs favor because your damage is proportionately bigger. I don't think I ever came in anything below 2nd (usually 1st) when doing Skirmish and T1 and below dungeons.
That changes pretty rapidly the second you aren't in that scenario.
^ I wouldn't mind them giving GWF a bonus to double their damage against mobs only so that it only works in PVE. However, in the other threads, you defend the notion that GWF should not be brought into instances because other classes are better. If all parties utilize GWF correctly, not in a DPS role, GWF are not worthless in instances.
Worthless is a strong word, I like playing a mobile/initiating tank and knowing each instance well enough to tank here, adds here, etc, all the while leading the party through and avoiding bad spots or not wasting time, it is valuable.
2 CW's can do it and chain CC entire dungeons.
2 TR's down the elite/champion mobs like they aren't there.
I don't necessarily see the point in going on GWF when the run is faster/easier on TR.
Worthless is a strong word, I like playing a mobile/initiating tank and knowing each instance well enough to tank here, adds here, etc, all the while leading the party through and avoiding bad spots or not wasting time, it is valuable.
2 CW's can do it and chain CC entire dungeons.
2 TR's down the elite/champion mobs like they aren't there.
I don't necessarily see the point in going on GWF when the run is faster/easier on TR.
Because it's fun? I don't know about you, but GWF is much more fun than TR. I can do one thing to make runs go faster on my GWF that TR cannot do efficiently:
On GWF, I can run through an entire room, gather all the mobs together, survive, let our CW CC them all with singularity, and I aoe the HAMSTER out of them.
As a rogue, I can do aoe build but the damage won't be much compared to my GWF's aoe.
I would be careful asking for a change to the GWF. I thought that after the great nerf some Dev said he thought the GWF was still too STRONG.......
I read that too, was comical to read. The GWF is not great, but it also isn't bad, though there is only one current cookie cutter build to use, crit/power. The devs have stated the numbers viewed against other classes are inline, the feel is not quite right and they are going to look into it.
What "It" is I have no clue, but the class needs some love or the numbers they are getting is the damage from lower level trash mobs in great numbers and not the elite stuff every other class can decimate much faster.
I can hang quite fine, I get 14k cleaves and tons of crits, crescendo has hit for 18k occasionally but none of it is consistent like the other classes. my utility skills are also wanting, such as being able to gather mobs up consistently or even reliably for that matter, and life steal is lackluster considering I should be in the middle of hell doing some decent aoe damage.
if I take any threat feats or abilities it takes away from damage and my survivability.
As I have always stated, GWF is a second string bench warmer that does ok when finally called in.
Maybe the devs should un-nerf the GWf to pre beta 2 and re-evaluate the damage verse trash mobs verse elite mass aoe damage. I have a 10.6 GS and mass elites are still a problem, unlike a CW aoe that kicks *** consistently.
There is no worse feeling in the world than the moment during an argument you realize you are wrong.
Thank you other GWF that seem to understand the state we are in. As we stand there is no "endgame" for us if you get into any type of dungeon later it is a pity run, plain and simple. My GWF sits on the sidelines and whistfully looks at the dungeons my CW and TR run, then say " hey i might be able to do ... ohh wait... nope im the wet noodle that thinks it can do something" then sits back on the bench and waits for someone somewhere to hopefully pick it up and make it usefull again.
Because it's fun? I don't know about you, but GWF is much more fun than TR. I can do one thing to make runs go faster on my GWF that TR cannot do efficiently:
On GWF, I can run through an entire room, gather all the mobs together, survive, let our CW CC them all with singularity, and I aoe the HAMSTER out of them.
As a rogue, I can do aoe build but the damage won't be much compared to my GWF's aoe.
emmm... don't wont to trash your enjoiment... but the CW actually don't need u to gather the mob for him ^^'
a few at will (at 80/100 range based on spec... are enough to get teh attention of the far away mob (assuming we'r talking of a REALLY big room... and than pop the singularity between the far away mob (that just need to get a little closer) and the closer mobs... and the job is done ^^'
also... if u'r talking about dealing great aoe dmg... u should know that most of your aoe skill have target limit (that is 5 for most of them... it is hard to notice due to the high frequency dmg that will flood your screen thx to proc and simultaneus hit... but u'r mostly doing dmg only to a few mob... ) while CW skill doesn't seem to have such limit (or if they have some it is large enough to not be noticed when u CC 20+ mob ^^' ) so unless u'r doing 4x the dmg of a CW u'r actually killing them slower than him ^^' also I have yet to see a GWF being able to keep mob away from a DC for long time... (I can have been unluky about this... but I think that most of the sentinel tree feat being bugged really have its weight on this ^^' ) while well specced (not optimized just with a decent spec) CW can chain their CC giving the DC time to take his breath with a good frequency (singularity every 8 sec is quite easy to achive and really effective into keepeng the mobs away from your DC ^^' )
PS: I don't play GWF... I play GF (actually on the bench) and CW... but I usually run with a GWF from my guild and know his pain... also I know him from a long time (IRL friend and almost 8 years of MMO toghether) and he is not that easy to loose heart over a class... yet he is on the brink on giving up on the GWF...
GWF isn't right pre 30 right now. I know that with trickster rogue, I can dodge attacks, I can do good damage from a range before I even start attacking and I can drop mobs a lot faster. With the guardian I can AOE cleave infront of me, block special damage attacks (which fills your daily really fast) and still do nice damage. CW does better AOE damage and has CC. Right now the GWF is just there. I hear that he gets way better AOE past 30, but why should we have to wait for half a game for it to get fun?
When I got my cleric companion things got a lot easier, but it's still off compared to other classes.
Its very difficult to DPS when clerics and mages (even other GWF) constantly knockback mobs because its the best way to build your AP. I dont blame the players for this, its a design fault in these abilities. Remove the AP from these abilities and they will still function just fine however they wont totally ruin the dungeon experience for every melee in the game.
GWF Roar needs to be changed from a knockback to an interrupt such as a silence. Why does a melee class have a knockback when there is totally no point(unless you count trying to push things off cliffs which still doesnt work very well). Im not saying Roar is pointless, its the best ability we have for generating AP, its the knockback feature that needs removed.
Sprint is painfully weak. It needs to break animations when you press the hotkey. I keep getting hit by red circles because my slow animations and my non damage/cc immunity movement ability(which every other class has!!).
The snare ability GWF has needs to be more powerful and last longer. I need to use this ability all the time because im forever chasing the cleric around while hes being chased by adds. However the ability doesnt cause enough damage/threat to pull aggro, and doesnt have a strong enough snare effect to help me get aggro.
I am still experimenting with GWF in T2s, but I have been able to out DPS a 11k GS conq. specced GF by a million damage on epic Idris. It is possible that GWFs damage is actually perfectly fine at high levels, I just cannot say that for certain yet. Their tankiness in Tab is quite good, Their sustain is great, so they are able to pick up adds away from cleric AS quite well. If you spec the top path, you can add 3s of combat advantage regularly with the aoe slow and the leap. You also gain 50% of power when allies get hit which is at nearly all times.
I would say GWF could very well be a good source of DPS that is greater than CW but less than TR. Their off-tanking ability is good for add control and will be even more valued when they nerf DC's AS which clearly is needed. Their DPS is good and their add collecting CC supplements aoe damage for when CW's singularity is on cd.
tl:dr: They have potential but need more testing. They are harder to play effectively and to build compared to other classes so people cry and want flat buffs. Some paths probably need attention, but flat buffs may not be needed.
Why is it described as being able to deal damage first and then somewhat briefly mentioned that you have staying power?
If the Great Weapon Fighter is a Hybrid, then why are there Feat trees that don't give you any Hybrid functionality? Are they just there to weed out the people who don't know how to play? Seems to me you should have your choice in what you do with your class based on which Feat trees you put points into. If all the trees are supposed to do the same thing, then why do I take so much damage? Supposed to be part tank, right?
Now, this tells me that I'm supposed to be DPS. I'm billed as a damage dealer first. So why is it I need to hit a mob four times with my big-*** sword before I do as much damage to it as a cleric's little light javelin thing?
Why is it that the tank part of my class role is billed as "secondary"?
I mean, I'll stop complaining when you show me something official about us not being damage dealers. So far all the official stuff I can find (in-game, wiki), is telling me otherwise.
The underlined above shows exactly where the official wiki names them as a hybrid.
I disagree, GFW does not need a buff, CWs and TRs need nerfs. This game for all its positives makes WoW feel hard, and WOW is borderline Hello Kitty now. Also PVP becomes stale fast when any class can nuke 25k health off a person in less than 3 seconds from range (looking at you TRs with your throwing knifes of total BS)
Without the strength of some of the current classes, some boss fights would take more than 30 minutes.
I know I don't want to stand there doing the same thing for 30 minutes while still never being in danger and boring myself to death while I wait to open a T2 chest that has nothing but T1 belts/rings in it no matter where I go. 5 man content shouldn't take massive amounts of time to kill bosses. There is typically nothing difficult about 5 man content, that's the inherent flaw of the design.
At least NWO's 5 man content provides some challenge if you don't double AS/CW/TR and ignore 2/5 classes in the game.
Nerfs are terrible when 4/5 of your classes are fine (outside of GF threat tools).
Not having issues with my GWF as I am leveling in pve or pvp. I just think.. seriously.. some people.. don't understand the class yet.
Take what you think is the norm from other mmos.. and throw them out. That's the main issue I see.
Old School gamer, reviewer of mmos and slayer of dragons.
Not having issues with my GWF as I am leveling in pve or pvp. I just think.. seriously.. some people.. don't understand the class yet.
Take what you think is the norm from other mmos.. and throw them out. That's the main issue I see.
Honestly the GWFs problems leveling are a bit exaggerated because questing in general is so easy, however, compared to any other class in the game it is significantly more annoying to level a GWF. Sounds like you're lacking a point of comparison to be making judgments.
Comments
Are you a GWF? GF can only hold aggro on 1 single target. GWF can hold aggro on multiple targets. You might want to reconsider redoing your feats. Most GWFs I know are dumb and try to build single target burst and cry that rogues do more damage than them.
Why is it described as being able to deal damage first and then somewhat briefly mentioned that you have staying power?
If the Great Weapon Fighter is a Hybrid, then why are there Feat trees that don't give you any Hybrid functionality? Are they just there to weed out the people who don't know how to play? Seems to me you should have your choice in what you do with your class based on which Feat trees you put points into. If all the trees are supposed to do the same thing, then why do I take so much damage? Supposed to be part tank, right?
Everywhere I look, it seems to tell me that Great Weapon Fighters are damage dealers. Take, for instance, the official wiki: http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter
Role:
DAMAGE DEALER.
SECONDARY Defense.
Now, this tells me that I'm supposed to be DPS. I'm billed as a damage dealer first. So why is it I need to hit a mob four times with my big-*** sword before I do as much damage to it as a cleric's little light javelin thing?
Why is it that the tank part of my class role is billed as "secondary"?
I mean, I'll stop complaining when you show me something official about us not being damage dealers. So far all the official stuff I can find (in-game, wiki), is telling me otherwise.
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Yeah, your reply shows that you don't play GWF so you have no idea what you are talking about. Your point is that you don't play GWF and theory crafting based on what the majority of the people on these forums cry about. News flash, majority of the players on these forums are bad, including yourself.
No. He's right. You're pretty much completely wrong. Even specced for tanking, I can't pull aggro off a cleric doing nothing but healing using Come and Get it and Daring Shout and my dps is so low it feels like I'm not doing much to save them.
GWF's need tweaked. They need a bit of damage and a bit more survivability. They're a fun class, but groups really just don't like seeing them because well... they aren't that great at either of their hybrid (tank/dps) roles.
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--Part 2: A Blind Eye (NW-DI3QTHZGJ)
--Part 3: Dodo's Dinner (NW-DHPA8O253)
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again im guessing yes since even playerbase says the same thing, GWF are in a horrible place atm and need alot of rework to make them better, if you want us to clear adds make it so we can at a faster rate than a single target dps
ive played the whole clear the adds on my TR and you know what i still did more damage than the GWF sure he had more kills... he killed all my <5% hp mobs that i burst down but that doesnt mean he did it.... i dropped the hp he just came in and flicked them to death.
Nobody can take aggro from cleric once they start healing like crazy
I use a build simila to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxgAZqiSsuY
It's a pvp stun lock build, but I tweak it for aoe dps.
Maybe I'm different, but I look at the class like I did my Armsman in Dark Age of Camelot (for all the old folks out there). I may not do as much damage as rogues or casters, but I don't have to panic if I get the mobs attention. I can stay in close and deal out single and aoe damage.
I think people don't understand this class completely and that leads to misunderstanding about what they should be capable of.
Can be used in PVE also. If you still suck *** as GWF with this build, please play another class. I guarantee you'll still suck with the other class so.... don't know what else to say to you.
Two things: Mind sharing your build? Have you played other classes?
I don't disbelieve you; honest questions.
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Even during unstoppable and Slam(5 target cap)+WMS going on max targets you're looking at ~13000/s if you're hitting all of those targets cleanly.
If a TR is fighting a champion mob at the same time their initial Duelist Flurry will put them behind the GWF. Since we're using slam for GWF, let's use Lurker's Assault to start the fight (and DF stacks), dealing ~3700/s for two seconds, after which the bleeds will be applied (as well as the flurry) and the third second of DF will proc for ~34000. TR will then fire off an instant cast Lashing for ~50000.
In a perfect scenario for the GWF, 4s into the fight they should look like this for total damage done:
GWF: 52000
TR: 91400
In 4s, a TR has nearly doubled a GWFs output under their best conditions and that's before a TR has applied 10 stacks of bleeds which is ~40% of their damage output (more if you manage to use Lurker's on each large HP mob you fight as you can get bleed ticks over 15k).
After all the trash is dead (because the CW killed it) and you're fighting Elites/Champions only, you're in the TR's home court and the only thing they're doing is pulling ahead while you hang around waiting for them to get done with whatever they're fighting so they can kill your mob.
Alternatively, if a GWF was fighting a single champion mob (keeping its attacks away from the TR/group) they would be doing the following damage in 4s (best conditions: Slam active, hitting 5 mobs, all encounters crit, spam unstoppable)
Slam+WMS->IBS->Flourish->WMS->(Unstoppable)Sure Strikex3 (this is more like 10s)
52000+1000+18000+14000+1000+15000=101000
The only problem is that in this time a TR has done 153000 plus 6 seconds of lurkers buffed bleeds and they don't need everything to crit or be a perfect scenario for it to happen either.
So if we're AoE'ing, we're not doing more damage than a TR (or a CW) and if we're doing single target we have to do a 10s rotation to still come out at 2/3's of the damage of a TR without accounting for 40% of their damage.
A GWF has to do both of these roles in a dungeon because there isn't always trash to kill and it certainly isn't always neatly stacked.
Right now, TR bleed stacks do not proc for multiple TR's, meaning that only one of them can apply their bleeds. This makes the second TR (if your group has 2) 40% less effective than the other (which usually comes out to them being fairly equal until whichever TR applies bleeds on the final boss pulls ahead). Even with this 40% damage loss (which the devs have stated they will be fixing so that there is no loss) a GWF could not do more damage at the end of a run than any of the TRs. For GWF to be viable, it can't be getting its damage doubled when hitting the maximum number of targets at once by someone hitting one target. For GWF to be viable, it cannot be getting its damage doubled in half the time when fighting a single target.
A CW could come in and shine more light on how much more damage you do than a GWF (and more importantly, your utility), my perspective is having played both the classes in all dungeons through Castle Never and I just play my TR now until GWF gets some love. I like the way GWF plays way more, but it really feels like you're being carried because of how pathetic you are.
Edit:
I always see people come in and say GWF is fine, and most of them are not doing T2. The reason GWF is fine from 30-60 T1 is because you are fighting mobs with lower HP pools so your piece of the pie is bigger. There are less mobs, less champions, etc. TR doesn't get a huge opportunity to burst down big mobs outside of the bosses. CW could still come out ahead or tie a GWF but the smaller HP pools work in a GWFs favor because your damage is proportionately bigger. I don't think I ever came in anything below 2nd (usually 1st) when doing Skirmish and T1 and below dungeons.
That changes pretty rapidly the second you aren't in that scenario.
2 CW's can do it and chain CC entire dungeons.
2 TR's down the elite/champion mobs like they aren't there.
I don't necessarily see the point in going on GWF when the run is faster/easier on TR.
Because it's fun? I don't know about you, but GWF is much more fun than TR. I can do one thing to make runs go faster on my GWF that TR cannot do efficiently:
On GWF, I can run through an entire room, gather all the mobs together, survive, let our CW CC them all with singularity, and I aoe the HAMSTER out of them.
As a rogue, I can do aoe build but the damage won't be much compared to my GWF's aoe.
I read that too, was comical to read. The GWF is not great, but it also isn't bad, though there is only one current cookie cutter build to use, crit/power. The devs have stated the numbers viewed against other classes are inline, the feel is not quite right and they are going to look into it.
What "It" is I have no clue, but the class needs some love or the numbers they are getting is the damage from lower level trash mobs in great numbers and not the elite stuff every other class can decimate much faster.
I can hang quite fine, I get 14k cleaves and tons of crits, crescendo has hit for 18k occasionally but none of it is consistent like the other classes. my utility skills are also wanting, such as being able to gather mobs up consistently or even reliably for that matter, and life steal is lackluster considering I should be in the middle of hell doing some decent aoe damage.
if I take any threat feats or abilities it takes away from damage and my survivability.
As I have always stated, GWF is a second string bench warmer that does ok when finally called in.
Maybe the devs should un-nerf the GWf to pre beta 2 and re-evaluate the damage verse trash mobs verse elite mass aoe damage. I have a 10.6 GS and mass elites are still a problem, unlike a CW aoe that kicks *** consistently.
emmm... don't wont to trash your enjoiment... but the CW actually don't need u to gather the mob for him ^^'
a few at will (at 80/100 range based on spec... are enough to get teh attention of the far away mob (assuming we'r talking of a REALLY big room... and than pop the singularity between the far away mob (that just need to get a little closer) and the closer mobs... and the job is done ^^'
also... if u'r talking about dealing great aoe dmg... u should know that most of your aoe skill have target limit (that is 5 for most of them... it is hard to notice due to the high frequency dmg that will flood your screen thx to proc and simultaneus hit... but u'r mostly doing dmg only to a few mob... ) while CW skill doesn't seem to have such limit (or if they have some it is large enough to not be noticed when u CC 20+ mob ^^' ) so unless u'r doing 4x the dmg of a CW u'r actually killing them slower than him ^^' also I have yet to see a GWF being able to keep mob away from a DC for long time... (I can have been unluky about this... but I think that most of the sentinel tree feat being bugged really have its weight on this ^^' ) while well specced (not optimized just with a decent spec) CW can chain their CC giving the DC time to take his breath with a good frequency (singularity every 8 sec is quite easy to achive and really effective into keepeng the mobs away from your DC ^^' )
PS: I don't play GWF... I play GF (actually on the bench) and CW... but I usually run with a GWF from my guild and know his pain... also I know him from a long time (IRL friend and almost 8 years of MMO toghether) and he is not that easy to loose heart over a class... yet he is on the brink on giving up on the GWF...
When I got my cleric companion things got a lot easier, but it's still off compared to other classes.
Then I heard it was level 50. Got there and it didn't do much.
Six levels til 60 and I'll see if it's fun then.
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I'll post my build later when I get home from work.
I played a GF in closed beta and have tried a TR and CW since going into "open beta".
Its very difficult to DPS when clerics and mages (even other GWF) constantly knockback mobs because its the best way to build your AP. I dont blame the players for this, its a design fault in these abilities. Remove the AP from these abilities and they will still function just fine however they wont totally ruin the dungeon experience for every melee in the game.
GWF Roar needs to be changed from a knockback to an interrupt such as a silence. Why does a melee class have a knockback when there is totally no point(unless you count trying to push things off cliffs which still doesnt work very well). Im not saying Roar is pointless, its the best ability we have for generating AP, its the knockback feature that needs removed.
Sprint is painfully weak. It needs to break animations when you press the hotkey. I keep getting hit by red circles because my slow animations and my non damage/cc immunity movement ability(which every other class has!!).
The snare ability GWF has needs to be more powerful and last longer. I need to use this ability all the time because im forever chasing the cleric around while hes being chased by adds. However the ability doesnt cause enough damage/threat to pull aggro, and doesnt have a strong enough snare effect to help me get aggro.
I would say GWF could very well be a good source of DPS that is greater than CW but less than TR. Their off-tanking ability is good for add control and will be even more valued when they nerf DC's AS which clearly is needed. Their DPS is good and their add collecting CC supplements aoe damage for when CW's singularity is on cd.
tl:dr: They have potential but need more testing. They are harder to play effectively and to build compared to other classes so people cry and want flat buffs. Some paths probably need attention, but flat buffs may not be needed.
The underlined above shows exactly where the official wiki names them as a hybrid.
I know I don't want to stand there doing the same thing for 30 minutes while still never being in danger and boring myself to death while I wait to open a T2 chest that has nothing but T1 belts/rings in it no matter where I go. 5 man content shouldn't take massive amounts of time to kill bosses. There is typically nothing difficult about 5 man content, that's the inherent flaw of the design.
At least NWO's 5 man content provides some challenge if you don't double AS/CW/TR and ignore 2/5 classes in the game.
Nerfs are terrible when 4/5 of your classes are fine (outside of GF threat tools).
Take what you think is the norm from other mmos.. and throw them out. That's the main issue I see.
Honestly the GWFs problems leveling are a bit exaggerated because questing in general is so easy, however, compared to any other class in the game it is significantly more annoying to level a GWF. Sounds like you're lacking a point of comparison to be making judgments.