Wow wuhsin, for someone that's so pissed off about whiners, you sure whine and a spam a lot.
Anyway I do not see the need to nerf AS. Really, it's like the only useful/reliable heal a cleric has. Nor there is any reason why it shouldn't stack with Hallowed Ground or their damage reduction class feature. If you are so annoyed that you can't oneshot them inside their blue bubble of awesome, push them out of it. You are a lousy TR and you can't? Well, stop being a soloing imbecile and ask for help from a teammate, then oneshot the cleric as soon as his sorry *** is out of the AS. There, done, moving on.
Now, we can discuss about TWO clerics stacking TWO astral shields on each other. That is bull****, mostly because it trivializes damage in pve and the 12-years-old average monkey making up the game's powerbase is nowadays utterly convinced that you can't do a succesfull epic dungeon run without 2 clerics stacking astral shields. I would love to see the stacking of the SAME buff gone for good (including the double GF spambuff cheese), since it feels really stupid and borderline gamebreaking in the best case.
But again, this is mostly a PVE problem. Even if you find 2, 3, 5 clerics stacking AS in pvp, the solution is always the same really: kick them out of their little protective bubble and beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of them before they even have the chance to stand up again. Is not that hard if you stop playing pvp solo.
All they need to do to fix shield stacking is make a hard cap for Damage Reduction, problem solved.
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suntzukhanMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Definition of TACTICS
a: the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat
b: the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end
This is what they lack, and this is why they complain and ruin a class. Again, this is my personal experience as a Cleric from 0-60 in this game and many others.
Remove stacking of anything game wide, hopefully this will teach the people who dont have "Tactics" to learn some when they also get affected. I promise if you single out Clerics for a nerf, half of the existing DC's are going to consider maining something else and the only hope you will have then in "truly" epic dungeons is waiting 360 days to get the "Angel of Protection", and pray thats enough with all your Defense, Deflect, Regeneration, Lifesteal gear on your wee lil TR..
P.S. Any Cleric that has any kind of decent Recovery gear will be able to keep Astral Shield up permanently....its not a Hax, We can just do math....the side benefit of high Recovery is increased Action Point gain, which means more Hallowed Grounds.....
"Tactics"
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suntzukhanMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
All they need to do to fix shield stacking is make a hard cap for Damage Reduction, problem solved.
They also need a hard cap for damage increasing.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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kiojikMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited May 2013
Level 60 Cleric here, done a lot of PvP and a moderate amount of Dungeons.
95% of the time in PvP Im the only Cleric, so the Shield Stacking from this aspect is moot and the exception. However 1 time and ONLY 1 time I was on a PvP group with 3 Clerics. Now 3 Astral Shields were a bit much but we spread them out to cover more ground to counter the knock backs and such instead of necessarily stacking them.
In general in PvP my Astral Shield doesnt prevent my death. I must go against the more skilled players I suppose that focus me down while bouncing me all over the place like a ping pong. On the same token I never asked for any class to be nerfed because they STACKED THEIR SKILLS together to kill me.
Why am I different? If you want to remove Astral Shield Stacking, REMOVE Righteousness. Our trusty built in CLASS FEATURE DEBUFF, may I ask what other class has such an outstanding feature?
Wonder why Clerics are in short supply, play one. Just like before I cry about a TR, I just rolled one to understand him more. I promise you because I know the Cleric very well, I will be much more adept at killing one.
Knowledge = Power
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zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Bull... kung fu and the other "martial arts" is fake as hell. The "Masters" only make their students believe that they have supernatural powers. This is what happens if an MMA fighter goes aginst a "Martial arts master".
Level 60 Cleric here, done a lot of PvP and a moderate amount of Dungeons.
95% of the time in PvP Im the only Cleric, so the Shield Stacking from this aspect is moot and the exception. However 1 time and ONLY 1 time I was on a PvP group with 3 Clerics. Now 3 Astral Shields were a bit much but we spread them out to cover more ground to counter the knock backs and such instead of necessarily stacking them.
In general in PvP my Astral Shield doesnt prevent my death. I must go against the more skilled players I suppose that focus me down while bouncing me all over the place like a ping pong. On the same token I never asked for any class to be nerfed because they STACKED THEIR SKILLS together to kill me.
Why am I different? If you want to remove Astral Shield Stacking, REMOVE Righteousness. Our trusty built in CLASS FEATURE DEBUFF, may I ask what other class has such an outstanding feature?
Wonder why Clerics are in short supply, play one. Just like before I cry about a TR, I just rolled one to understand him more. I promise you because I know the Cleric very well, I will be much more adept at killing one.
Here's another solution for you whine-o's. Step back out of the Cleric's range for 15 freaking seconds. It's not like they are tanking four people at once by themselves and winning PVP matches by themselves like I used to on Guild Wars. They are boosting their team's defense, and winning because you idiots rush in instead of waiting 15 seconds for the buff to fade.
CD on Astral Shield is 17.5 seconds and can be reduced to not have any CD if you the cleric uses recovery stat enchants. The problem is not that the shield is always up. The problem is that used with a daily exploit, it makes the cleric take 0 damage the entire match.
I don't think this thread is about nerfing a single cleric who stacks his skills. It's probably about multiple clerics stacking their skills together.
Standing in 2 astral shields, with the occasional daily makes a team pretty much invincible in pvp and makes guardians redundant in pve.
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kiojikMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 14Arc User
CD on Astral Shield is 17.5 seconds and can be reduced to not have any CD if you the cleric uses recovery stat enchants. The problem is not that the shield is always up. The problem is that used with a daily exploit, it makes the cleric take 0 damage the entire match.
Im not sure of what exploit you are talking about. On boss encounters and when I can in PvP I use Divine Astral Shield in conjunction with Hallowed Ground, but neither I nor any party member has ever been invincible when standing in the combined effects.
My cool down on Astral Shield is around 8.8 Seconds if I remember correctly, and Hallowed Ground being available varies greatly depending on if Im doing PvE or PvP.
CD on Astral Shield is 17.5 seconds and can be reduced to not have any CD if you the cleric uses recovery stat enchants. The problem is not that the shield is always up. The problem is that used with a daily exploit, it makes the cleric take 0 damage the entire match.
Not true at all, Divine Astral Shield stacks and heals - it does not cause the cleric to take 0 dmg even when combined with hollowed ground. if you have two clerics in a small radius what do you think they are doing inbetween casts ... oh thats right - healing one another. As many others have stated here learn to use your class. Boot the clerics from the circle and root them - easily done. It's just that nobody uses strategy anymore and complains when straight up dmg doesn't work. Not only that , it's pretty rare that 2/5 slots are a cleric in pvp. Also , whats worse is that it's actually bad for a group. Every pug group that I have ran with 2 clerics sucks cause the other 3 dps love fighting in the blue circle leaving the other 2 points undefended.
Not true at all, Divine Astral Shield stacks and heals - it does not cause the cleric to take 0 dmg even when combined with hollowed ground. if you have two clerics in a small radius what do you think they are doing inbetween casts ... oh thats right - healing one another. As many others have stated here learn to use your class. Boot the clerics from the circle and root them - easily done. It's just that nobody uses strategy anymore and complains when straight up dmg doesn't work. Not only that , it's pretty rare that 2/5 slots are a cleric in pvp. Also , whats worse is that it's actually bad for a group. Every pug group that I have ran with 2 clerics sucks cause the other 3 dps love fighting in the blue circle leaving the other 2 points undefended.
Nevermind. She already reported it so maybe they'll fix it before it becomes widespread.
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ninjakhan3Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
For all those who think something isn't wrong, the behavior we are talking about is not that clerics are "tough" to kill, or that their defensive abilities are "too powerful." It's that with certain combinations (including exploits) their health bars DO NOT MOVE. This does not mean they are taking damage and then healing it back, it means they are never taking damage period. I don't care how good astral shield is at reducing damage, it does not (or should not) reduce it to ZERO.
I've noticed this very clearly as I am a GWF who (unfortunately) does not have access to a knockback in pvp. I used to load Roar but it was so useless 90% of the time I swapped it out for a mobility power. I will typically pile on a healer in the hopes that I am at least disrupting them and preventing some healing going out, making them run, etc., and I can tell the difference between those clerics who are exploiting and those who aren't. Clerics are tough to kill, unless one is especially bad I usually cannot do it solo. However, I can at least move their bars UNLESS they are exploiting. To re-iterate, I'm not talking about 15 seconds when both Astral Seal and Hallowed Ground are active, I'm talking over a sustained period of time. They are harder to kill than GF, which makes zero sense.
Again, let me re-iterate for those with poor reading comprehension. Clerics should take more damage than the tanking class. They have tools to heal damage, they shouldn't have tools which reduce incoming damage to ZERO.
As a CW when two clerics in PVP place circles on the ground, and I stand in them, and they leave, I am still practically invincible. I don't even use the Wizard Shield for defense when we have 2 clerics, there is no point. I have survived 4 daily powers used on my wizard with no heals other then the Circles... GWF and Rogues can hit for 2 digit damage sometimes while in double circles.
The only method to counter this is to knock at least one cleric out the circle, and then chain CC and nuke them. I can attest to seeing 12k+ Crits being reduced to under 4k on targets in dual cleric circles...
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trickedyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Again, let me re-iterate for those with poor reading comprehension. Clerics should take more damage than the tanking class. They have tools to heal damage, they shouldn't have tools which reduce incoming damage to ZERO.
Sir it appears to be you with the poor reading and comprehension - Clerics are severely limited in the ability to heal themselves (thanks Righteousness = 40% less effective heals on ourselves).
So please tell us again how we should be taking all the damage and just heal ourselves up again quicksmart?
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slyteshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited May 2013
PVP: Learn how to use knockback, GF or CW can do this pretty well. Knock them out of their shield and down the cleric to have the shield disappear. Or lure people OUT of the shield and kill them.
Plus, with equal teams it's not as much of an problem. Different story with 2 Clerics vs team without any. But that's broken matchmaking, obviously having more healers tends to make you win anyway. 1 DC vs 0 DC is auto win/loose, 2DC vs 1DC too.
PVE: Guardians will still suck regardless of removing stacking. Some dungeons will be almost impossible, if not completly impossible. Need major redesign of dungeons and GF to get this to work if you intend to have 1DC/1GF instead of 2DC in the future.
Plus, it's pretty stupid anyway - pretty much ALL class abilities stack.
Comments
Anyway I do not see the need to nerf AS. Really, it's like the only useful/reliable heal a cleric has. Nor there is any reason why it shouldn't stack with Hallowed Ground or their damage reduction class feature. If you are so annoyed that you can't oneshot them inside their blue bubble of awesome, push them out of it. You are a lousy TR and you can't? Well, stop being a soloing imbecile and ask for help from a teammate, then oneshot the cleric as soon as his sorry *** is out of the AS. There, done, moving on.
Now, we can discuss about TWO clerics stacking TWO astral shields on each other. That is bull****, mostly because it trivializes damage in pve and the 12-years-old average monkey making up the game's powerbase is nowadays utterly convinced that you can't do a succesfull epic dungeon run without 2 clerics stacking astral shields. I would love to see the stacking of the SAME buff gone for good (including the double GF spambuff cheese), since it feels really stupid and borderline gamebreaking in the best case.
But again, this is mostly a PVE problem. Even if you find 2, 3, 5 clerics stacking AS in pvp, the solution is always the same really: kick them out of their little protective bubble and beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of them before they even have the chance to stand up again. Is not that hard if you stop playing pvp solo.
a: the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat
b: the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end
This is what they lack, and this is why they complain and ruin a class. Again, this is my personal experience as a Cleric from 0-60 in this game and many others.
Remove stacking of anything game wide, hopefully this will teach the people who dont have "Tactics" to learn some when they also get affected. I promise if you single out Clerics for a nerf, half of the existing DC's are going to consider maining something else and the only hope you will have then in "truly" epic dungeons is waiting 360 days to get the "Angel of Protection", and pray thats enough with all your Defense, Deflect, Regeneration, Lifesteal gear on your wee lil TR..
P.S. Any Cleric that has any kind of decent Recovery gear will be able to keep Astral Shield up permanently....its not a Hax, We can just do math....the side benefit of high Recovery is increased Action Point gain, which means more Hallowed Grounds.....
"Tactics"
+1 ...........
They also need a hard cap for damage increasing.
95% of the time in PvP Im the only Cleric, so the Shield Stacking from this aspect is moot and the exception. However 1 time and ONLY 1 time I was on a PvP group with 3 Clerics. Now 3 Astral Shields were a bit much but we spread them out to cover more ground to counter the knock backs and such instead of necessarily stacking them.
In general in PvP my Astral Shield doesnt prevent my death. I must go against the more skilled players I suppose that focus me down while bouncing me all over the place like a ping pong. On the same token I never asked for any class to be nerfed because they STACKED THEIR SKILLS together to kill me.
Why am I different? If you want to remove Astral Shield Stacking, REMOVE Righteousness. Our trusty built in CLASS FEATURE DEBUFF, may I ask what other class has such an outstanding feature?
Wonder why Clerics are in short supply, play one. Just like before I cry about a TR, I just rolled one to understand him more. I promise you because I know the Cleric very well, I will be much more adept at killing one.
Knowledge = Power
Clearly that "Master" is a GWF in neverwinter.
This. Nerf my foot you sinners! - PJP2
While I agree, I was only referencing AS, which has no damage buff. Honestly, there's a lot of stats that desperately need a hard cap in this game lol
CD on Astral Shield is 17.5 seconds and can be reduced to not have any CD if you the cleric uses recovery stat enchants. The problem is not that the shield is always up. The problem is that used with a daily exploit, it makes the cleric take 0 damage the entire match.
Standing in 2 astral shields, with the occasional daily makes a team pretty much invincible in pvp and makes guardians redundant in pve.
Im not sure of what exploit you are talking about. On boss encounters and when I can in PvP I use Divine Astral Shield in conjunction with Hallowed Ground, but neither I nor any party member has ever been invincible when standing in the combined effects.
My cool down on Astral Shield is around 8.8 Seconds if I remember correctly, and Hallowed Ground being available varies greatly depending on if Im doing PvE or PvP.
Not true at all, Divine Astral Shield stacks and heals - it does not cause the cleric to take 0 dmg even when combined with hollowed ground. if you have two clerics in a small radius what do you think they are doing inbetween casts ... oh thats right - healing one another. As many others have stated here learn to use your class. Boot the clerics from the circle and root them - easily done. It's just that nobody uses strategy anymore and complains when straight up dmg doesn't work. Not only that , it's pretty rare that 2/5 slots are a cleric in pvp. Also , whats worse is that it's actually bad for a group. Every pug group that I have ran with 2 clerics sucks cause the other 3 dps love fighting in the blue circle leaving the other 2 points undefended.
Nevermind. She already reported it so maybe they'll fix it before it becomes widespread.
I've noticed this very clearly as I am a GWF who (unfortunately) does not have access to a knockback in pvp. I used to load Roar but it was so useless 90% of the time I swapped it out for a mobility power. I will typically pile on a healer in the hopes that I am at least disrupting them and preventing some healing going out, making them run, etc., and I can tell the difference between those clerics who are exploiting and those who aren't. Clerics are tough to kill, unless one is especially bad I usually cannot do it solo. However, I can at least move their bars UNLESS they are exploiting. To re-iterate, I'm not talking about 15 seconds when both Astral Seal and Hallowed Ground are active, I'm talking over a sustained period of time. They are harder to kill than GF, which makes zero sense.
Again, let me re-iterate for those with poor reading comprehension. Clerics should take more damage than the tanking class. They have tools to heal damage, they shouldn't have tools which reduce incoming damage to ZERO.
The only method to counter this is to knock at least one cleric out the circle, and then chain CC and nuke them. I can attest to seeing 12k+ Crits being reduced to under 4k on targets in dual cleric circles...
So please tell us again how we should be taking all the damage and just heal ourselves up again quicksmart?
Plus, with equal teams it's not as much of an problem. Different story with 2 Clerics vs team without any. But that's broken matchmaking, obviously having more healers tends to make you win anyway. 1 DC vs 0 DC is auto win/loose, 2DC vs 1DC too.
PVE: Guardians will still suck regardless of removing stacking. Some dungeons will be almost impossible, if not completly impossible. Need major redesign of dungeons and GF to get this to work if you intend to have 1DC/1GF instead of 2DC in the future.
Plus, it's pretty stupid anyway - pretty much ALL class abilities stack.