I really dislike singularity for PvP because you can, for the most part, just sit there get sucked in and be totally fine for the most part. This is especially true if you have a cleric who has thrown down astral shield, hallowed ground or whatever. Perhaps in a larger battle say 20v20 the disruption it provides will be more important but when it comes down to 3v3s and the like you're better off just killing off a player immediately.
So that being my logic I instead use MoC when I feel that I can't get a clean shot and kill off a guy because I have a few opponents on me and I need to buy time (like two rogues going after me who, miraculously, don't have their dailies up) . Your mileage may vary but I find most people will think "Oh look, the derpy wizard is standing still trying to cast something I'll just daze/stun him!" and to their surprise I can tank the damage and throw out a modest 4-5k damage which some times.. is enough to finish a player off.
That being said, I also run a DoT oriented build. Thaumaturgy -> Double Ray of Enfeeblement + Conduit of Ice (Assailing Force) is pretty funny as those three spells casts alone can nearly kill a player.
I really dislike singularity for PvP because you can, for the most part, just sit there get sucked in and be totally fine for the most part. This is especially true if you have a cleric who has thrown down astral shield, hallowed ground or whatever. Perhaps in a larger battle say 20v20 the disruption it provides will be more important but when it comes down to 3v3s and the like you're better off just killing off a player immediately.
So that being my logic I instead use MoC when I feel that I can't get a clean shot and kill off a guy because I have a few opponents on me and I need to buy time (like two rogues going after me who, miraculously, don't have their dailies up) . Your mileage may vary but I find most people will think "Oh look, the derpy wizard is standing still trying to cast something I'll just daze/stun him!" and to their surprise I can tank the damage and throw out a modest 4-5k damage which some times.. is enough to finish a player off.
I shall see how MoC performs in PVP when my daily quest is up.
That being said, I also run a DoT oriented build. Thaumaturgy -> Double Ray of Enfeeblement + Conduit of Ice (Assailing Force) is pretty funny as those three spells casts alone can nearly kill a player.
I'm personally running a thaumaturge build as well, although I tend to not do double ROE in succession. Its usually ROE > entangling > COI > chill strike > MM or ROE then MM. This kills pretty much any class except GFs, who can still be taken down after throwing in more MMs after ROE to kill off their block gauge (or whatever it is called).
Right now the other daily that I use in pvp aside from ice knife is opressive force for its aoe daze. Ice storm is good as well, but often doesn't do much when the opponents have clerics on the party (astral shield/heals). Its probably amazing if combined with another wizard though. Either CW use AS, I throw in a COI (aoe 15% mitigation debuff), throw in an ROE or 2, then ice storm for the finish. Its way too unlikely though.
If I jump another player it'll be Entangling -> CoI -> Chill Strike -> RoE x2 . My reasoning is this; CoI is a 15% mitigation reduction that lasts for around 6 seconds while the extra mitigation reduction from Elemental Empowerment (or whatever it is called) only lasts for 3 seconds. So if you don't follow up with another [Arcane] encounter power it'll drop off. The reason I toss in Chill Strike is because usually the first damage tick of CoI will reduce the duration of Entangling by quite a bit even with Orb of Imposition (or whatever gives you 15% extra control) and Wisdom stacking so you want that extra stun in order to land the next RoE's.
But yeah, do try MoC and see the best usage you can get out of it and tell me how you feel about it.
You realise your asking questions of someone who hasnt even played the class right. It says on the op's post
According to him, he doesn't need to play to know. That would be true if he had all the data points at his hands, but his analysis is obviously flawed in many ways. So we decided to ignore him and move the conversation towards something more productive... like the uses of MoC and why it's underrated!
And also talking about real burst builds.
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ararararararagiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
According to him, he doesn't need to play to know. That would be true if he had all the data points at his hands, but his analysis is obviously flawed in many ways. So we decided to ignore him and move the conversation towards something more productive... like the uses of MoC and why it's underrated!
And also talking about real burst builds.
It's not an analysis. Now find a problem with the build instead of simply asserting that it's flawed.
...and then you go on to speak of productivity. lolk.
@ whoever asked why I'm @ 2/3 toughness, I shouldn't be. Thanks for pointing that out.
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ararararararagiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You realise your asking questions of someone who hasnt even played the class right. It says on the op's post
This has been commented on ad nauseum. Please go back under your bridge.
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ararararararagiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I went Renegade over Thaumaturge because when you break it all down, if you go Thaumaturge you'll be getting the first two rows of Renegade,and in reverse if you go Renegade.
Therefore the feats which should be compared are the last three of the row.
Renegade = 15% crit severity on Combat Advantage. Steal Time/Ray of Enfeeblement +10% dmg when target is afflicted with chill, +5% for arcane mastery stacks. 33% chance to heal your allies, reduce enemy mitigation by 15%, or gain 15% power.
vs.
Thaumaturge = +10 ft on Magic Missile & Chill Strike, Chill Strike does 30% of your weapon damage over time & Arcane Encounters apply a 10% defense debuff, CoI reduces mitigation by 15%.
Renegade is more probability based but I've had better luck with it so far. Thaumaturge will give more consistent dmg but not as much sporadic burst.
It's not an analysis. Now find a problem with the build instead of simply asserting that it's flawed.
...and then you go on to speak of productivity. lolk.
@ whoever asked why I'm @ 2/3 toughness, I shouldn't be. Thanks for pointing that out.
Go figure it out yourself; like I said, this thread is more or less discussing actual burst builds and under utilized spells - MoC for instance.
You don't even know what 'burst' really means. Why not just call it the "Standard Fish for Crits" or something vague like "Better Than Baseline Build" . Sheeeeeeit, you really ought to just do your own work instead of having the community build something better for you while you offer nothing in return... because you don't play the class. =/
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honoraryorangeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Go figure it out yourself; like I said, this thread is more or less discussing actual burst builds and under utilized spells - MoC for instance.
You don't even know what 'burst' really means. Why not just call it the "Standard Fish for Crits" or something vague like "Better Than Baseline Build" . Sheeeeeeit, you really ought to just do your own work instead of having the community build something better for you while you offer nothing in return... because you don't play the class. =/
I don't? Because a couple comments ago I specifically said that I'd started playing CW. I made this build so that I could be sure I wouldn't have to repsec at a higher level. That is why I'm asking for criticism. If you can't give criticism and you can't provide anything other than vague comments about how the build is bad then go discuss the garbage you're talking about now in General Discussion. You'd have a lot more people contributing to it if you actually had it somewhere people would go for a discussion of that sort.
And 'this thread' is discussing my build. The majority of comments are regarding my build. You haven't even remotely derailed it by discussing something related to my build (taking MoC over other powers).
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ararararararagiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I went Renegade over Thaumaturge because when you break it all down, if you go Thaumaturge you'll be getting the first two rows of Renegade,and in reverse if you go Renegade.
Therefore the feats which should be compared are the last three of the row.
Renegade = 15% crit severity on Combat Advantage. Steal Time/Ray of Enfeeblement +10% dmg when target is afflicted with chill, +5% for arcane mastery stacks. 33% chance to heal your allies, reduce enemy mitigation by 15%, or gain 15% power.
vs.
Thaumaturge = +10 ft on Magic Missile & Chill Strike, Chill Strike does 30% of your weapon damage over time & Arcane Encounters apply a 10% defense debuff, CoI reduces mitigation by 15%.
Renegade is more probability based but I've had better luck with it so far. Thaumaturge will give more consistent dmg but not as much sporadic burst.
No actually, I highly doubt thaumaturge mages would choose any of the 3rd tier feats. Its mostly Tempest Magic + Malevolent Surge + Snap Freeze. Your comparison will have to replace Far Spell with either of the 3 that you didn't/wouldn't take on your renegade build.
Elemental Empowerment (ROE, COI, Chill Strike) + Assailing Force (COI) = 25% mitigation + 30% weapon damage DOT that a renegade build will never get.
Chaos Magic won't even proc if you have no allies nearby (hence useless when having a 1v1 fight), and is highly uncontrollable since you can't choose what to proc.
Maserful Arcane Theft is great for long group battles where you can substain your arcane mastery stacks with constant MM spam, but otherwise your fights will always start at arcane mastery 0 stacks. Chill? Unless you make the effort to cast ray of frost for 1 tick before using ROE (which gives the opponent time to react with a knockdown/stun), chances are that the only time you would get chill stacks on the opponent is with chill strike or ice knife/ice storm, which is normally used for the kill anyway, rather than for the debuff.
The best thing a renegade build has over a thaumaturge one is Phantasmal Destruction, which will proc often enough.
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ararararararagiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I didn't take Malevolent Surge, which is the least useful of all of the ones you get. So pretty much the same.
The end feat doesn't affect me since I don't use CoI and when I have, I haven't really liked it. Excluding the end feat in my case, I'm pretty much left with Elemental Empowerment (Malevolent Surge is negligible) which vs. Phantasmal, Arcane Theft, and Chaos Magic is a clear loss.
Even if I were to use CoI, the outcome is questionable. It's still 3 useful feats vs 2 and a mediocre one.
Group fights should be the majority of fights you're in as CW, unless you're the one person who roams. Usually a rogue takes that position, though.
Just because you claim to play a CW doesn't really mean you're competent or that you have actually managed to erase your ignorance.
Get to 60 because it doesn't seem like you are playing at the 60s pvp level or actually have a clue as to how to win domination matches (let alone carry them).
The majority of your fights as a CW will not be group fights, because you only need to be on a point in order to stop it from generating anything. So, the current meta is to always attack a node and zerging a node is not an option ( I really shouldn't have to explain this) . So, what does this mean? It means you'll be fighting either alone or in pairs or alone against a pair.
If you do have a group fight your only job is to snipe the enemy control wizard, throw in some token CC, and then bug out to attack a node. You aren't going to sit there and clean up if you're keen on winning because you're a better duelist than rogues are and rogues, more often than not, need a supplemental source of CCs unless they have their daily up then it doesn't matter who goes because it's a 23k+ crit coming in (read: no one will live through it).
You shouldn't weigh feats in quantity but rather the end result. There is currently nothing Renegade offers that matches the performance of -25% mitigation which might as well be an increase in damage by 25% . Your rotation, regardless of who you are, will include. Renegade is a better damage over time build, arguably, because the up-time for the arcane debuff is mere three seconds which isn't such a big deal when you're doing 5+ minutes of intense combat but it matters very much for sniping.
And what the other guy said. You're not going to have arcane stacks in a fight and the only time you cast MM is if you're finishing someone off or you're just trying to break through Astral Shield + Hallowed Ground because no one is using smoke cloud or using any knock backs of any kind (repel is useful here).
So, please tell me, how is this a 'burst build' at all when it performs close to baseline and arguably no better than an oppressor build? The funny thing being that even an Oppressor build can actually out burst this build of yours depending on parameters. You should understand that Renegade isn't bad but there are better options.
But seriously, get to 60, and actually pay note to how other posters here are playing and pay attention to the meta game. For all your talk about numbers and data points you haven't drawn a single thing from it - you actually do need to justify things when your build, right off the bat, is weak. You need to concretely explain why you're advertising a sustain DPS oriented tree and labeling it as 'burst'.
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ararararararagiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I play CW, I'm 60, and I've done pretty much all of the endgame on my Rogue(11.7k), CW is at 9.9k GS. Whether or not I am a skilled player is irrelevant. Criticize the build and stop being an infant crying incessantly about how I haven't played CW under x circumstances for x amount of time. First-hand Experience =/= Ability to theorize.
If you've ever actually played PvP, you will know that most games do not go according to plan unless you're in a premade (and if you are, you're going to stomp everyone anyways). You're not going to roam in groups of two and get away with it. The enemy team is going to zerg into mid most of the time and destroy the two people that are there, then disperse and take their points back. You seem to be forgetting that the enemy team is capable of fighting back. 2v2s are also going to be lengthy at times.
If you're constantly queue'ing in premades, you're going to get in team fights against other premades. It's unavoidable. At the start of the game, 1 will go to the gimme and the rest will go mid. Depending on which team dies out, you'll either be having another team fight at your gimme or theirs.
Changing the name of the post won't change the name it is displayed as when you see it in recent posts in this forum. It will still be listed as Renegade Burst Build. You can only change the name it is displayed as if you change it in the first couple of minutes or so. Please have even a tiny understanding of forums before getting angry about how I haven't changed the title yet. If anyone is confused enough about the title, they will see this comment.
Honestly you're just inventing stuff to get angry about at this point. Nothing you actually whined about this time is even remotely a problem. Go vent elsewhere. Not bothering with you anymore.
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qryticalMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I went Renegade over Thaumaturge because when you break it all down, if you go Thaumaturge you'll be getting the first two rows of Renegade,and in reverse if you go Renegade.
Therefore the feats which should be compared are the last three of the row.
Renegade = 15% crit severity on Combat Advantage. Steal Time/Ray of Enfeeblement +10% dmg when target is afflicted with chill, +5% for arcane mastery stacks. 33% chance to heal your allies, reduce enemy mitigation by 15%, or gain 15% power.
vs.
Thaumaturge = +10 ft on Magic Missile & Chill Strike, Chill Strike does 30% of your weapon damage over time & Arcane Encounters apply a 10% defense debuff, CoI reduces mitigation by 15%.
Renegade is more probability based but I've had better luck with it so far. Thaumaturge will give more consistent dmg but not as much sporadic burst.
I've played with both Renegade and Thaumaturge in PvP. Thaumaturge destroys Renegade every single time.
The reason to go Thaumaturge is for the extra 20% damage on Icy Rays and -15% mitigation on CoI, that along with the damage buff Icy Rays receive by being in the Mastery slot means it will hit for 7-8k normal and crit for 10-12k. No other CW ability hits that hard short of Ice Knife. Icy Rays is Chill Strike's granddaddy. It hits considerably harder and it will stop a target in its tracks a lot longer than CS will.
In addition, you never use tab RoE in succession because, while the debuff stacks, the DoT is overwritten, and RoE does very decent damage which you don't want to throw away.
CoI is awesome too, especially as Thaumaturge. Not only it deals almost as much damage as RoE, but if you slot Tenebrous enchantments with plaguefire, it also also deals an extra 4-5k damage on top of its regular damage to everyone close to the target in addition to reducing their mitigation.
tl;dr: No other spec comes close in burst to a thaumaturge doing CoI > RoE > Icy Rays. This is why Thaumaturge > Renegade for PvP.
Whether Renegade has better sustained than Thaumaturge in PvE I couldn't tell you because I've never been out-DPSed by one. In the burst department Thaumaturge is the clear winner.
I've played with both Renegade and Thaumaturge in PvP. Thaumaturge destroys Renegade every single time.
The reason to go Thaumaturge is for the extra 20% damage on Icy Rays and -15% mitigation on CoI, that along with the damage buff Icy Rays receive by being in the Mastery slot means it will hit for 7-8k normal and crit for 10-12k. No other CW ability hits that hard short of Ice Knife. Icy Rays is Chill Strike's granddaddy. It hits considerably harder and it will stop a target in its tracks a lot longer than CS will.
In addition, you never use tab RoE in succession because, while the debuff stacks, the DoT is overwritten, and RoE does very decent damage which you don't want to throw away.
CoI is awesome too, especially as Thaumaturge. Not only it deals almost as much damage as RoE, but if you slot Tenebrous enchantments with plaguefire, it also also deals an extra 4-5k damage on top of its regular damage to everyone close to the target in addition to reducing their mitigation.
tl;dr: No other spec comes close in burst to a thaumaturge doing CoI > RoE > Icy Rays. This is why Thaumaturge > Renegade for PvP.
Whether Renegade has better sustained than Thaumaturge in PvE I couldn't tell you because I've never been out-DPSed by one. In the burst department Thaumaturge is the clear winner.
If you're not starting your combo off with entanglement then you will be instantly killed by a CW who lands it on you first. It is the only true hard CC for a CW in PvP and can completely lock you down with absolutely no counter to it at all for another CW. I kill rouges and CW's in a single combo... Usually in 2-3 spells to be honest because of the animation canceling and auto attack charging you can do as a CW. They really need to fix the fact you can charge your auto's and unleash them all at the same time. I can literally jump into a 4 v 1 and kill a rouge or CW if they don't time their dodge right. That is unless they CC me before I can get my combo off because then I just blow up in 2 seconds.
Here is what you're not understanding about ray. It is NOT a damage spell! Although it does decent damage it is definitely not a damage spell because you're using it for the mitigation and the fact that it stacks means you don't want to double it up right away. The proper way to use it is to do damage, then cast ray (mitigation nerf), do some more damage, if still alive then pop it and they will die to your next auto attack if not when you cast it.
The absolute only thing that makes CoI a viable skill to actually slot is if you took the thuam path and only for the damage mitigation... otherwise it's a horrible spell to slot. Even then I honestly feel ray gives more than enough mitigation in PvP, but Thuam woudl be the ideal boss killer build due to stacking the mitigation debuff from ray and CoI
On paper you are spot on about the damage of your build, but in practice you will never be able to keep anybody in range of you or even have enough time to unload your complete combo before you get silenced by a rouge or another CW. You would however completely shut down a cleric within seconds and really beat the tanks up as well.
Oh and anybody taking the OP's opinion seriously: don't bother because what you see as his build now isn't even remotely close how he originally had his feats. It basically did what I told him to do and lied about changing it before I posted. The guy has no clue what he's on about.
New players please don't follow this advice. Look up one of the other very competent guides out there. Never follow a guide from someone who doesn't play the class. Or who had the hubris to think he could give advice to people who do just from watching people play. Its like claiming to be a competent football coach because you watch NFL.
If you've ever actually played PvP, you will know that most games do not go according to plan unless you're in a premade (and if you are, you're going to stomp everyone anyways). You're not going to roam in groups of two and get away with it. The enemy team is going to zerg into mid most of the time and destroy the two people that are there, then disperse and take their points back. You seem to be forgetting that the enemy team is capable of fighting back. 2v2s are also going to be lengthy at times.
Like I said, you have virtually no understanding of how Domination works. A single person standing on a point prevents the point from generating victory points. Are you so stupid you cannot understand the ramifications of this?
You do realize that in order to carry a team full of clueless <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like yourself it requires you avoid the zerg and simply stall for points right? By the time they kill the two or three people at mid and cap it you will have been on the other side stalling their VP generation. In essence, they have zero points per second while you will have one if they opt to zerg you. From there, if they continue to zerg it's just a matter of playing whack-a-mole and you'll eventually win.
They have to split up and control the lanes and that really means you'll be fighting 1v1s or 2v2s most of the time. If you encounter the zerg it is because you're stalling or you misplayed. And obviously I haven't forgotten that they fight back as I said you will be often fighting 2v2s or 1v1s but the defender is ALWAYS at a disadvantage since you need to only stand on the point REGARDLESS ownership to prevent them from receiving anything.
You haven't observed the changing meta as more and more players realize this or rather you haven't been the one to initiate these things because you're a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> person who sticks to zerging. Once you start capping like that the entire game shifts and it's really the only way to ensure higher chances of victory when you cannot guarantee a good composition (when joining a public match) or even skill. To restrict the CW and say that rogues generally do this is very stupid strategic decision and is simply bad advice for anyone who takes you seriously.
And maybe with your silly notion of 'burst' build you would say 2v2s take awhile. They don't unless you're up against a GF/Cleric with Astral Shield + Hallowed Ground. In which case, you either avoid that or use repel or snipe the cleric when he's en route. Either way, if your definition of awhile is 10 seconds or under you really need to examine how you use your vocabulary. Just keep in mind that your goal isn't always too kill either in which case you'll be running repel/shield for maximum stalling.
If you're going against premades then sure you'll have actual team fights with full team presence if both sides wish to adopt a pitch battle method and in which case you'll be sniping the other CW something which your build is not particularly specialized in . It performs as well as an Oppressor build and as well as any other generic build really. You should realize by now why people say your build is **** . Precisely it is because it doesn't work as advertised. It's baseline.
Changing the name of the post won't change the name it is displayed as when you see it in recent posts in this forum. It will still be listed as Renegade Burst Build. You can only change the name it is displayed as if you change it in the first couple of minutes or so. Please have even a tiny understanding of forums before getting angry about how I haven't changed the title yet. If anyone is confused enough about the title, they will see this comment.
It's not about changing the title, it's about acknowledging that you are a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and that conceptually you're devoid of anything original and beyond that incapable of giving actual advice. You don't offer anything new and only by forcing you to justify things and having the conflict arise do we actually get real information that everyone can use. Furthermore, your posts do more disservice to the community as you simply give false impressions to new players. It's about accountability especially when people have to spend AD to respec.
Honestly you're just inventing stuff to get angry about at this point. Nothing you actually whined about this time is even remotely a problem. Go vent elsewhere. Not bothering with you anymore.
You mean how you don't understand PvP or how you mislead people into thinking your build actually is a burst build? Or how others have to force you to justify your choices in order for this thread to be productive? Or how your build is/was flawed? Or how your revised build doesn't even differ from the standard? Please, get to 60 and actually learn how to PvP at the higher bracket and understand the concepts of the game before advertising a build and calling it a 'burst build'.
When you churn out trash expect to be acknowledged as trash. That is exactly what your efforts have produced.
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honoraryorangeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
So that being my logic I instead use MoC when I feel that I can't get a clean shot and kill off a guy because I have a few opponents on me and I need to buy time (like two rogues going after me who, miraculously, don't have their dailies up) . Your mileage may vary but I find most people will think "Oh look, the derpy wizard is standing still trying to cast something I'll just daze/stun him!" and to their surprise I can tank the damage and throw out a modest 4-5k damage which some times.. is enough to finish a player off.
That being said, I also run a DoT oriented build. Thaumaturgy -> Double Ray of Enfeeblement + Conduit of Ice (Assailing Force) is pretty funny as those three spells casts alone can nearly kill a player.
Right now the other daily that I use in pvp aside from ice knife is opressive force for its aoe daze. Ice storm is good as well, but often doesn't do much when the opponents have clerics on the party (astral shield/heals). Its probably amazing if combined with another wizard though. Either CW use AS, I throw in a COI (aoe 15% mitigation debuff), throw in an ROE or 2, then ice storm for the finish. Its way too unlikely though.
But yeah, do try MoC and see the best usage you can get out of it and tell me how you feel about it.
According to him, he doesn't need to play to know. That would be true if he had all the data points at his hands, but his analysis is obviously flawed in many ways. So we decided to ignore him and move the conversation towards something more productive... like the uses of MoC and why it's underrated!
And also talking about real burst builds.
It's not an analysis. Now find a problem with the build instead of simply asserting that it's flawed.
...and then you go on to speak of productivity. lolk.
@ whoever asked why I'm @ 2/3 toughness, I shouldn't be. Thanks for pointing that out.
This has been commented on ad nauseum. Please go back under your bridge.
Therefore the feats which should be compared are the last three of the row.
Renegade = 15% crit severity on Combat Advantage. Steal Time/Ray of Enfeeblement +10% dmg when target is afflicted with chill, +5% for arcane mastery stacks. 33% chance to heal your allies, reduce enemy mitigation by 15%, or gain 15% power.
vs.
Thaumaturge = +10 ft on Magic Missile & Chill Strike, Chill Strike does 30% of your weapon damage over time & Arcane Encounters apply a 10% defense debuff, CoI reduces mitigation by 15%.
Renegade is more probability based but I've had better luck with it so far. Thaumaturge will give more consistent dmg but not as much sporadic burst.
Go figure it out yourself; like I said, this thread is more or less discussing actual burst builds and under utilized spells - MoC for instance.
You don't even know what 'burst' really means. Why not just call it the "Standard Fish for Crits" or something vague like "Better Than Baseline Build" . Sheeeeeeit, you really ought to just do your own work instead of having the community build something better for you while you offer nothing in return... because you don't play the class. =/
The problem is you don't have a clue about the class. Stop spreading bad information.
I don't? Because a couple comments ago I specifically said that I'd started playing CW. I made this build so that I could be sure I wouldn't have to repsec at a higher level. That is why I'm asking for criticism. If you can't give criticism and you can't provide anything other than vague comments about how the build is bad then go discuss the garbage you're talking about now in General Discussion. You'd have a lot more people contributing to it if you actually had it somewhere people would go for a discussion of that sort.
And 'this thread' is discussing my build. The majority of comments are regarding my build. You haven't even remotely derailed it by discussing something related to my build (taking MoC over other powers).
u mad doe? Be specific. If you can't actually specify what's wrong with the build, you're just raging for no reason.
Now stop whining about how the build is bad because I haven't played CW and actually specify what's wrong with it.
Or is everyone simply buttmad and claiming stuff that they can't support with any actual evidence?
You can either go Spellstorm Mage or Spellstorm Mage.
It's the only paragon for CW at the moment.
No actually, I highly doubt thaumaturge mages would choose any of the 3rd tier feats. Its mostly Tempest Magic + Malevolent Surge + Snap Freeze. Your comparison will have to replace Far Spell with either of the 3 that you didn't/wouldn't take on your renegade build.
Elemental Empowerment (ROE, COI, Chill Strike) + Assailing Force (COI) = 25% mitigation + 30% weapon damage DOT that a renegade build will never get.
Chaos Magic won't even proc if you have no allies nearby (hence useless when having a 1v1 fight), and is highly uncontrollable since you can't choose what to proc.
Maserful Arcane Theft is great for long group battles where you can substain your arcane mastery stacks with constant MM spam, but otherwise your fights will always start at arcane mastery 0 stacks. Chill? Unless you make the effort to cast ray of frost for 1 tick before using ROE (which gives the opponent time to react with a knockdown/stun), chances are that the only time you would get chill stacks on the opponent is with chill strike or ice knife/ice storm, which is normally used for the kill anyway, rather than for the debuff.
The best thing a renegade build has over a thaumaturge one is Phantasmal Destruction, which will proc often enough.
The end feat doesn't affect me since I don't use CoI and when I have, I haven't really liked it. Excluding the end feat in my case, I'm pretty much left with Elemental Empowerment (Malevolent Surge is negligible) which vs. Phantasmal, Arcane Theft, and Chaos Magic is a clear loss.
Even if I were to use CoI, the outcome is questionable. It's still 3 useful feats vs 2 and a mediocre one.
Group fights should be the majority of fights you're in as CW, unless you're the one person who roams. Usually a rogue takes that position, though.
Get to 60 because it doesn't seem like you are playing at the 60s pvp level or actually have a clue as to how to win domination matches (let alone carry them).
The majority of your fights as a CW will not be group fights, because you only need to be on a point in order to stop it from generating anything. So, the current meta is to always attack a node and zerging a node is not an option ( I really shouldn't have to explain this) . So, what does this mean? It means you'll be fighting either alone or in pairs or alone against a pair.
If you do have a group fight your only job is to snipe the enemy control wizard, throw in some token CC, and then bug out to attack a node. You aren't going to sit there and clean up if you're keen on winning because you're a better duelist than rogues are and rogues, more often than not, need a supplemental source of CCs unless they have their daily up then it doesn't matter who goes because it's a 23k+ crit coming in (read: no one will live through it).
You shouldn't weigh feats in quantity but rather the end result. There is currently nothing Renegade offers that matches the performance of -25% mitigation which might as well be an increase in damage by 25% . Your rotation, regardless of who you are, will include. Renegade is a better damage over time build, arguably, because the up-time for the arcane debuff is mere three seconds which isn't such a big deal when you're doing 5+ minutes of intense combat but it matters very much for sniping.
And what the other guy said. You're not going to have arcane stacks in a fight and the only time you cast MM is if you're finishing someone off or you're just trying to break through Astral Shield + Hallowed Ground because no one is using smoke cloud or using any knock backs of any kind (repel is useful here).
So, please tell me, how is this a 'burst build' at all when it performs close to baseline and arguably no better than an oppressor build? The funny thing being that even an Oppressor build can actually out burst this build of yours depending on parameters. You should understand that Renegade isn't bad but there are better options.
But seriously, get to 60, and actually pay note to how other posters here are playing and pay attention to the meta game. For all your talk about numbers and data points you haven't drawn a single thing from it - you actually do need to justify things when your build, right off the bat, is weak. You need to concretely explain why you're advertising a sustain DPS oriented tree and labeling it as 'burst'.
If you've ever actually played PvP, you will know that most games do not go according to plan unless you're in a premade (and if you are, you're going to stomp everyone anyways). You're not going to roam in groups of two and get away with it. The enemy team is going to zerg into mid most of the time and destroy the two people that are there, then disperse and take their points back. You seem to be forgetting that the enemy team is capable of fighting back. 2v2s are also going to be lengthy at times.
If you're constantly queue'ing in premades, you're going to get in team fights against other premades. It's unavoidable. At the start of the game, 1 will go to the gimme and the rest will go mid. Depending on which team dies out, you'll either be having another team fight at your gimme or theirs.
Changing the name of the post won't change the name it is displayed as when you see it in recent posts in this forum. It will still be listed as Renegade Burst Build. You can only change the name it is displayed as if you change it in the first couple of minutes or so. Please have even a tiny understanding of forums before getting angry about how I haven't changed the title yet. If anyone is confused enough about the title, they will see this comment.
Honestly you're just inventing stuff to get angry about at this point. Nothing you actually whined about this time is even remotely a problem. Go vent elsewhere. Not bothering with you anymore.
I've played with both Renegade and Thaumaturge in PvP. Thaumaturge destroys Renegade every single time.
The reason to go Thaumaturge is for the extra 20% damage on Icy Rays and -15% mitigation on CoI, that along with the damage buff Icy Rays receive by being in the Mastery slot means it will hit for 7-8k normal and crit for 10-12k. No other CW ability hits that hard short of Ice Knife. Icy Rays is Chill Strike's granddaddy. It hits considerably harder and it will stop a target in its tracks a lot longer than CS will.
In addition, you never use tab RoE in succession because, while the debuff stacks, the DoT is overwritten, and RoE does very decent damage which you don't want to throw away.
CoI is awesome too, especially as Thaumaturge. Not only it deals almost as much damage as RoE, but if you slot Tenebrous enchantments with plaguefire, it also also deals an extra 4-5k damage on top of its regular damage to everyone close to the target in addition to reducing their mitigation.
tl;dr: No other spec comes close in burst to a thaumaturge doing CoI > RoE > Icy Rays. This is why Thaumaturge > Renegade for PvP.
Whether Renegade has better sustained than Thaumaturge in PvE I couldn't tell you because I've never been out-DPSed by one. In the burst department Thaumaturge is the clear winner.
If you're not starting your combo off with entanglement then you will be instantly killed by a CW who lands it on you first. It is the only true hard CC for a CW in PvP and can completely lock you down with absolutely no counter to it at all for another CW. I kill rouges and CW's in a single combo... Usually in 2-3 spells to be honest because of the animation canceling and auto attack charging you can do as a CW. They really need to fix the fact you can charge your auto's and unleash them all at the same time. I can literally jump into a 4 v 1 and kill a rouge or CW if they don't time their dodge right. That is unless they CC me before I can get my combo off because then I just blow up in 2 seconds.
Here is what you're not understanding about ray. It is NOT a damage spell! Although it does decent damage it is definitely not a damage spell because you're using it for the mitigation and the fact that it stacks means you don't want to double it up right away. The proper way to use it is to do damage, then cast ray (mitigation nerf), do some more damage, if still alive then pop it and they will die to your next auto attack if not when you cast it.
The absolute only thing that makes CoI a viable skill to actually slot is if you took the thuam path and only for the damage mitigation... otherwise it's a horrible spell to slot. Even then I honestly feel ray gives more than enough mitigation in PvP, but Thuam woudl be the ideal boss killer build due to stacking the mitigation debuff from ray and CoI
On paper you are spot on about the damage of your build, but in practice you will never be able to keep anybody in range of you or even have enough time to unload your complete combo before you get silenced by a rouge or another CW. You would however completely shut down a cleric within seconds and really beat the tanks up as well.
Oh and anybody taking the OP's opinion seriously: don't bother because what you see as his build now isn't even remotely close how he originally had his feats. It basically did what I told him to do and lied about changing it before I posted. The guy has no clue what he's on about.
Like I said, you have virtually no understanding of how Domination works. A single person standing on a point prevents the point from generating victory points. Are you so stupid you cannot understand the ramifications of this?
You do realize that in order to carry a team full of clueless <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like yourself it requires you avoid the zerg and simply stall for points right? By the time they kill the two or three people at mid and cap it you will have been on the other side stalling their VP generation. In essence, they have zero points per second while you will have one if they opt to zerg you. From there, if they continue to zerg it's just a matter of playing whack-a-mole and you'll eventually win.
They have to split up and control the lanes and that really means you'll be fighting 1v1s or 2v2s most of the time. If you encounter the zerg it is because you're stalling or you misplayed. And obviously I haven't forgotten that they fight back as I said you will be often fighting 2v2s or 1v1s but the defender is ALWAYS at a disadvantage since you need to only stand on the point REGARDLESS ownership to prevent them from receiving anything.
You haven't observed the changing meta as more and more players realize this or rather you haven't been the one to initiate these things because you're a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> person who sticks to zerging. Once you start capping like that the entire game shifts and it's really the only way to ensure higher chances of victory when you cannot guarantee a good composition (when joining a public match) or even skill. To restrict the CW and say that rogues generally do this is very stupid strategic decision and is simply bad advice for anyone who takes you seriously.
And maybe with your silly notion of 'burst' build you would say 2v2s take awhile. They don't unless you're up against a GF/Cleric with Astral Shield + Hallowed Ground. In which case, you either avoid that or use repel or snipe the cleric when he's en route. Either way, if your definition of awhile is 10 seconds or under you really need to examine how you use your vocabulary. Just keep in mind that your goal isn't always too kill either in which case you'll be running repel/shield for maximum stalling.
If you're going against premades then sure you'll have actual team fights with full team presence if both sides wish to adopt a pitch battle method and in which case you'll be sniping the other CW something which your build is not particularly specialized in . It performs as well as an Oppressor build and as well as any other generic build really. You should realize by now why people say your build is **** . Precisely it is because it doesn't work as advertised. It's baseline.
It's not about changing the title, it's about acknowledging that you are a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and that conceptually you're devoid of anything original and beyond that incapable of giving actual advice. You don't offer anything new and only by forcing you to justify things and having the conflict arise do we actually get real information that everyone can use. Furthermore, your posts do more disservice to the community as you simply give false impressions to new players. It's about accountability especially when people have to spend AD to respec.
You mean how you don't understand PvP or how you mislead people into thinking your build actually is a burst build? Or how others have to force you to justify your choices in order for this thread to be productive? Or how your build is/was flawed? Or how your revised build doesn't even differ from the standard? Please, get to 60 and actually learn how to PvP at the higher bracket and understand the concepts of the game before advertising a build and calling it a 'burst build'.
When you churn out trash expect to be acknowledged as trash. That is exactly what your efforts have produced.
I can't believe this post still exists