open beta is release. im surprised so few people understand this by now.
0
narathkorMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
If you think they are going to get a pass on this because of a marketing ploy, you are in for a very big surprise. This has nothing to do with perfection. It has everything to do with accepting real money for a service where the people BUYING it have a reasonable expectation of a minimal standard of quality.
The current state of the game is FAR below that minimum, reasonable expectation and they are responsible for correcting it. They know it and are feverishly working to fix it. If they don't, they are ruined and they know it.
So what you are saying is you bought some stuff, knowing the game was in beta, but you now have buyers remorse and think the company should die because you later decide you do not like the game? Are you one of those people that go buy an air conditioner from Wal-Mart and then when summer is over try to return it because its not hot anymore?
You say accepting money for a service. They are not charging you a single dime for the service. It is free. They are charging you for that bag you want, did you get it? That mount you want, did you get it? That companion you want, did you get it? That zen you want to convert to astral diamonds, did you get it? If you purchased any of those things, you got it, and it is not going away, so your arguement is invalid.
Sorry to burst everyones bubble but you are getting your SDLC (software development lifecycle) and PLM (product lifecycle management) concepts mixed up. From an SLDC perspective half of you are correct that there is no rule that there can be no sales during beta. However from a PLM perspective development happens prior to a products market launch and launch can be defined by sales. This just highlights the fact that in every other industry regulation defines what is required for release to general public and typically errs on the side of consumers.
Except now the economy is likely ruined for months if not years.
From the neverwinter twitter account "Update: We are identifying the accounts that have utilized the AH exploit and will be taking action against said accounts"
I have seen things like this happen a lot over the years of playing mmo. Worst case the game economy goes back to normal within two weeks. When people have that much loot they spend it and spend it fast. They typically aren't the savers that use exploits. They are the type of people that always look for shortcuts to make the game easier for themselves.
With the actions they are taking it shouldn't even take that long for things to level out again.
0
narathkorMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Sorry to burst everyones bubble but you are getting your SDLC (software development lifecycle) and PLM (product lifecycle management) concepts mixed up. From an SLDC perspective half of you are correct that there is no rule that there can be no sales during beta. However from a PLM perspective development happens prior to a products market launch and launch can be defined by sales. This just highlights the fact that in every other industry regulation defines what is required for release to general public and typically errs on the side of consumers.
Sorry to burst your bubble. Launch can not be defined by sales on an F2P, there is no box or client sales to launch. So it becomes just a matter of when the developers wish to say their product is launched. Go back to economics class but nice try, you are usually correct in that statement so I give you props for that.
Sorry to burst everyones bubble but you are getting your SDLC (software development lifecycle) and PLM (product lifecycle management) concepts mixed up. From an SLDC perspective half of you are correct that there is no rule that there can be no sales during beta. However from a PLM perspective development happens prior to a products market launch and launch can be defined by sales. This just highlights the fact that in every other industry regulation defines what is required for release to general public and typically errs on the side of consumers.
Good I'm a consumer and I say it is in beta. Problem solved.
warfluxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
The OP is right.
Regardless of what definition you can dig up on beta, the way it's being used now is to guard companies against any liability or fault from their bad/greedy decisions.
No one could predict that. There have been various times when someone calls out the ruin of a game because a unknown mechanic was exploited during beta. 99.99999999999% of the time the doomsayers are wrong.
This is not beta. People are paying for a product that is faulty. Their reputation is at stake and they know it.
If you purchased any of those things, you got it, and it is not going away, so your arguement is invalid.
The economy, a MAJOR component of the product, is defective. My argument is 100% valid. I've been perfectly happy with the game until the economy crumbled within a matter of hours. The product they have been accepting money for is broken and they have a responsibility to fix it.
Sorry to burst your bubble. Launch can not be defined by sales on an F2P, there is no box or client sales to launch. So it becomes just a matter of when the developers wish to say their product is launched. Go back to economics class but nice try, you are usually correct in that statement so I give you props for that.
No need to get insulting - I was pointing out a FACT. Actually, Cryptics product is thier play to win sales, regardless of if the game is free or not; the game is just a mechanism to get users to make product purchases. Therefore, thier product is in production tied to the development of a delivery system (game) that is in beta. Do you think there spending millions of developing a free game to make the world a better place?Now with that said, the gaming industry is the only place where this is allowed without controls. Imagine if your bank was allowed a free buy with sorry we were in beta (we don't pay for online banking software either). Maybe you should stick to gym class and leave the hefting thinking to adults.
The only "neat trick" they are doing is what every other mmo has done for the past 5 years. Getting paid during beta testing. Your kidding yourself if you think it is possible to fully launch a game with no bugs without it going through beta.
I'll never understand why anyone tries to use the strawman fallacy when it's so easily defeated. All you have to do is read what I wrote and your response. You ignored what I actually said and instead made up another argument and attacked it, as if it had anything to do with my post. Your strawman is both textbook and transparent.
What I actually said was, if you insist that this is a beta then kindly explain the actual, functional difference between the game as it's operating now and the game as it will operate after this hypothetical "launch" date. To reiterate, Cryptic themselves have already said that the time of test, change, wipe, deploy phases is over. So explain how the game can be any more live than it is now. I'm all ears.
Live games have bugs, so that's not solid criteria for calling anything beta. Live games get patches and updates all the time, so that doesn't work, either. If that's your definition then every MMO that ever existed was "beta" from the moment it launched to the moment the plug was pulled. Surely that much is obvious to you.
So what does that leave? What will be the actual difference? What to your mind makes this game unreleased?
Mythic's "Wrath of Heroes" was born, lived, and died without ever leaving "open beta." But they sure as heck were willing to take money from the people that played it. Same with the "Neverwinter" Facebook game.
All pwe games stay in "Open Beta" permanently. They literally never leave open beta. Of course, those of us not so stupid, know they are in fact live, and not in beta.
Testing for DDO ended on February 19, 2006, with a special head start event that started February 24 for those who pre-ordered. The game opened to the public on February 28 2006. Going from a subscription based model to F2p on a game that had an initial beta and launch is not the same thing.
Wrong. When they had two launches. One in 2006 and another one before they went F2P on the beta server Lamania. In 2009 they offered a cash shop on the beta server they charged money during that beta then launched it on their active servers. Don't try and argue your points by getting information from Wikipedia. I played both sub and tested the f2p model. I have played the game since 2006.
This thread is so silly, without OPEN BETA / Micro-transactions you would never truly know how it operates on a mass level to stabilize the environment. The word BETA is all over everything on this game, ignorance is no excuse. It reminds me of the people who try to beat a passing train across the tracks and people are surprised when they get hit. If you don't know what the word BETA means, it's likely you aren't old enough to have your own credit card. I also ask you, should all companies be in charge of informing their community the complete concept of BETA besides the obvious "OPEN/CLOSED TESTING". Would you prefer less complex wording? How idiot proof would you like this game?
0
narathkorMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No need to get insulting - I was pointing out a FACT. Actually, Cryptics product is thier play to win sales, regardless of if the game is free or not; the game is just a mechanism to get users to make product purchases. Therefore, thier product is in production tied to the development of a delivery system (game) that is in beta. Do you think there spending millions of developing a free game to make the world a better place?Now with that said, the gaming industry is the only place where this is allowed without controls. Imagine if your bank was allowed a free buy with sorry we were in beta (we don't pay for online banking software either). Maybe you should stick to gym class and leave the hefting thinking to adults.
Adult? I highly doubt that, I was probably online gaming while you were a thought in your father's head. Hefting thinking, shows just how Hefty your thinking is.
Once again DDO and EQ2 both offered cash shop on their beta test server for f2p launch. This is not unprecedented. So your wrong about that statement.
Multitudes of sub games now offer early or guaranteed beta access by purchasing something this is also is not unprecedented.
What would be unprecedented is launching a game officially without it going through beta testing.
You do realize that using DDO which was launched 7 years ago without a cash store did not have open beta cash store right, they had a launch which was in 2006, and then restructured into FTP. This is not what is thought of as a beta, this is how the game will be there is not plans for a future launch date. If there is please redirect me to there so i can come back when ever they actaully release there finished product.
Reason why I never bought anything for this game. Buying a Founders Pack just for Closed Beta. I immediately thought this was a bad idea... Beta is testing... Why do I have to buy something just to test the game? I played a lot of Closed Beta games that gave away keys for players to test their own game and this is the first time I've seen something about paying to get into CB... Maybe I'm not looking in the right direction, but the fact is... don't pay anything when its beta... especially when the game says it live, yet they say its beta because they know there's something wrong with the game to begin with... I will only pay if I'm...
1) Enjoying the game (Many cases I played a lot of FTP MMOs yet weren't worth any money to be spent into)
2) Not putting money into the game right when it comes out of Closed Beta... At that time it would be called a Open beta even if they have a Cash Shop...
3) Saying its Open Beta and having the game says is live is suspicious... It is a way for people to spend money and when something goes wrong they have a good excuse to not be accountable for anything
At least this what I believe... I go on my instinct and so far I never gotten into this mess... shame for people who paid this game when it was suspicious to begin with...
0
narathkorMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You do realize that using DDO which was launched 7 years ago without a cash store did not have open beta cash store right, they had a launch which was in 2006, and then restructured into FTP. This is not what is thought of as a beta, this is how the game will be there is not plans for a future launch date. If there is please redirect me to there so i can come back when ever they actaully release there finished product.
DDO did have a beta for the F2P conversion, as well as a Beta for the LOTRO F2P conversion (turbine same company). It was a beta.
What I actually said was, if you insist that this is a beta then kindly explain the actual, functional difference between the game as it's operating now and the game as it will operate after this hypothetical "launch" date. To reiterate, Cryptic themselves have already said that the time of test, change, wipe, deploy phases is over. So explain how the game can be any more live than it is now. I'm all ears.
It generally begins when the software is feature complete. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software, as well as speed/performance issues and may still cause crashes or data loss. The focus of beta testing is reducing impacts to users, often incorporating usability testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release and this is typically the first time that the software is available outside of the organization that developed it.
Live games have bugs, so that's not solid criteria for calling anything beta. Live games get patches and updates all the time, so that doesn't work, either. If that's your definition then every MMO that ever existed was "beta" from the moment it launched to the moment the plug was pulled. Surely that much is obvious to you.
So what does that leave? What will be the actual difference? What to your mind makes this game unreleased?
It is still in beta. Once they game is in a more stabilized form it will be officially released.
0
namtemMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
Someone is using Wiki in a argument?!! Oh snap! The <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>%^ just got real... (and hilarious!)
The game is still in "Beta" as in, it's not ready for an official launch. However, it seems to me like they are either testing a lot of content internally, before putting it in the open beta (Which kind of defeats the purpose), or they just haven't tested a lot of content for the game during Closed Beta. Either way, I wouldn't doubt they are using this Open Beta as sort of an excuse.
That said, it is not as though they claimed the game was finished, or that you shouldn't expect bugs/exploits/server downtime. In fact, by saying it's Open Beta, they are claiming the exact opposite. Just so happens they also said that they will not wipe characters, nor refund cash shop purchases. The game is no doubt still in its beta phase of testing, just so happens that it's also released to the public.
Basically, they are releasing an unfinished game to the public. Which would normally be a problem, but it's a free to play MMO. Anything you spend money on, you chose to do so yourself. So they are not forcing you to buy a product that is clearly unfinished, nor are they trying to hide the fact that is unfinished.
My only worry is that even though so much content is clearly missing, the game is balanced around it's current state, at least in PvE. This could mean that we do not get new content for longer periods of time than one would normally expect, or that some content will be scrapped entirely. It could also mean nothing other than they wanted the experience for the players to feel as smooth as possible despite the missing content, but it still worries me.
0
oreoz2573Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I think everyone is thinking about this a little too hard and should instead consider some simple facts.
Lets take the cash shop out of the equation for now.
Are there bugs and exploits that need fixing? Yes. Beta, then.
Now lets put the cash shop back in.
Does what you buy from the cash shop work as intended when you buy it? (for the sake of argument, we're excluding instances of lost orders or a failure to receive items as these are issues that plague every game with a cash shop here and there).
So they work as intended when you buy them? Mounts, character renames, character redesigns, respecs....etc?
Ok, so the cash shop items work. That's not in beta. Good.
So we have a game that's in beta with obvious bugs and exploits that need addressed coupled with a working cash shop whose stock of items work as intended upon purchase.
I really don't see the issue here.
Clearly the game is in beta so if you're aware that things are broken (feats for example), you're not gonna buy a respec are you? That would be a waste and it would be YOUR fault.
Complaining that there's a working cash shop during a beta............soooo.............don't buy from the cash shop until the game reaches a state you deem worthy of buying from a cash shop.
Why is this hard?
"If you're going through Hell, keep going." -Winston Churchill
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You do realize that using DDO which was launched 7 years ago without a cash store did not have open beta cash store right, they had a launch which was in 2006, and then restructured into FTP. This is not what is thought of as a beta, this is how the game will be there is not plans for a future launch date. If there is please redirect me to there so i can come back when ever they actaully release there finished product.
DDO had two beta releases. The first was 2006 the second beta was launched on a test server and also featured a cash shop. The reason they did this was it was beta and they needed to test the shop as much as other newly incorporated features of the game.
Comments
So what you are saying is you bought some stuff, knowing the game was in beta, but you now have buyers remorse and think the company should die because you later decide you do not like the game? Are you one of those people that go buy an air conditioner from Wal-Mart and then when summer is over try to return it because its not hot anymore?
You say accepting money for a service. They are not charging you a single dime for the service. It is free. They are charging you for that bag you want, did you get it? That mount you want, did you get it? That companion you want, did you get it? That zen you want to convert to astral diamonds, did you get it? If you purchased any of those things, you got it, and it is not going away, so your arguement is invalid.
The Sins of the Father NW-DLN6BC8NX
A Name For Yourself NW-DRBWMCFL4
Click Here To Visit The Official Thread
Hero of the North
From the neverwinter twitter account "Update: We are identifying the accounts that have utilized the AH exploit and will be taking action against said accounts"
I have seen things like this happen a lot over the years of playing mmo. Worst case the game economy goes back to normal within two weeks. When people have that much loot they spend it and spend it fast. They typically aren't the savers that use exploits. They are the type of people that always look for shortcuts to make the game easier for themselves.
With the actions they are taking it shouldn't even take that long for things to level out again.
Sorry to burst your bubble. Launch can not be defined by sales on an F2P, there is no box or client sales to launch. So it becomes just a matter of when the developers wish to say their product is launched. Go back to economics class but nice try, you are usually correct in that statement so I give you props for that.
The Sins of the Father NW-DLN6BC8NX
A Name For Yourself NW-DRBWMCFL4
Click Here To Visit The Official Thread
Good I'm a consumer and I say it is in beta. Problem solved.
Regardless of what definition you can dig up on beta, the way it's being used now is to guard companies against any liability or fault from their bad/greedy decisions.
This is not beta. People are paying for a product that is faulty. Their reputation is at stake and they know it.
The economy, a MAJOR component of the product, is defective. My argument is 100% valid. I've been perfectly happy with the game until the economy crumbled within a matter of hours. The product they have been accepting money for is broken and they have a responsibility to fix it.
No need to get insulting - I was pointing out a FACT. Actually, Cryptics product is thier play to win sales, regardless of if the game is free or not; the game is just a mechanism to get users to make product purchases. Therefore, thier product is in production tied to the development of a delivery system (game) that is in beta. Do you think there spending millions of developing a free game to make the world a better place?Now with that said, the gaming industry is the only place where this is allowed without controls. Imagine if your bank was allowed a free buy with sorry we were in beta (we don't pay for online banking software either). Maybe you should stick to gym class and leave the hefting thinking to adults.
Hero of the North
I'll never understand why anyone tries to use the strawman fallacy when it's so easily defeated. All you have to do is read what I wrote and your response. You ignored what I actually said and instead made up another argument and attacked it, as if it had anything to do with my post. Your strawman is both textbook and transparent.
What I actually said was, if you insist that this is a beta then kindly explain the actual, functional difference between the game as it's operating now and the game as it will operate after this hypothetical "launch" date. To reiterate, Cryptic themselves have already said that the time of test, change, wipe, deploy phases is over. So explain how the game can be any more live than it is now. I'm all ears.
Live games have bugs, so that's not solid criteria for calling anything beta. Live games get patches and updates all the time, so that doesn't work, either. If that's your definition then every MMO that ever existed was "beta" from the moment it launched to the moment the plug was pulled. Surely that much is obvious to you.
So what does that leave? What will be the actual difference? What to your mind makes this game unreleased?
Wrong. When they had two launches. One in 2006 and another one before they went F2P on the beta server Lamania. In 2009 they offered a cash shop on the beta server they charged money during that beta then launched it on their active servers. Don't try and argue your points by getting information from Wikipedia. I played both sub and tested the f2p model. I have played the game since 2006.
Get your facts straight Mr Historian.
Adult? I highly doubt that, I was probably online gaming while you were a thought in your father's head. Hefting thinking, shows just how Hefty your thinking is.
The Sins of the Father NW-DLN6BC8NX
A Name For Yourself NW-DRBWMCFL4
Click Here To Visit The Official Thread
You do realize that using DDO which was launched 7 years ago without a cash store did not have open beta cash store right, they had a launch which was in 2006, and then restructured into FTP. This is not what is thought of as a beta, this is how the game will be there is not plans for a future launch date. If there is please redirect me to there so i can come back when ever they actaully release there finished product.
1) Enjoying the game (Many cases I played a lot of FTP MMOs yet weren't worth any money to be spent into)
2) Not putting money into the game right when it comes out of Closed Beta... At that time it would be called a Open beta even if they have a Cash Shop...
3) Saying its Open Beta and having the game says is live is suspicious... It is a way for people to spend money and when something goes wrong they have a good excuse to not be accountable for anything
At least this what I believe... I go on my instinct and so far I never gotten into this mess... shame for people who paid this game when it was suspicious to begin with...
DDO did have a beta for the F2P conversion, as well as a Beta for the LOTRO F2P conversion (turbine same company). It was a beta.
The Sins of the Father NW-DLN6BC8NX
A Name For Yourself NW-DRBWMCFL4
Click Here To Visit The Official Thread
It generally begins when the software is feature complete. Software in the beta phase will generally have many more bugs in it than completed software, as well as speed/performance issues and may still cause crashes or data loss. The focus of beta testing is reducing impacts to users, often incorporating usability testing. The process of delivering a beta version to the users is called beta release and this is typically the first time that the software is available outside of the organization that developed it.
It is still in beta. Once they game is in a more stabilized form it will be officially released.
That said, it is not as though they claimed the game was finished, or that you shouldn't expect bugs/exploits/server downtime. In fact, by saying it's Open Beta, they are claiming the exact opposite. Just so happens they also said that they will not wipe characters, nor refund cash shop purchases. The game is no doubt still in its beta phase of testing, just so happens that it's also released to the public.
Basically, they are releasing an unfinished game to the public. Which would normally be a problem, but it's a free to play MMO. Anything you spend money on, you chose to do so yourself. So they are not forcing you to buy a product that is clearly unfinished, nor are they trying to hide the fact that is unfinished.
My only worry is that even though so much content is clearly missing, the game is balanced around it's current state, at least in PvE. This could mean that we do not get new content for longer periods of time than one would normally expect, or that some content will be scrapped entirely. It could also mean nothing other than they wanted the experience for the players to feel as smooth as possible despite the missing content, but it still worries me.
Lets take the cash shop out of the equation for now.
Are there bugs and exploits that need fixing? Yes. Beta, then.
Now lets put the cash shop back in.
Does what you buy from the cash shop work as intended when you buy it? (for the sake of argument, we're excluding instances of lost orders or a failure to receive items as these are issues that plague every game with a cash shop here and there).
So they work as intended when you buy them? Mounts, character renames, character redesigns, respecs....etc?
Ok, so the cash shop items work. That's not in beta. Good.
So we have a game that's in beta with obvious bugs and exploits that need addressed coupled with a working cash shop whose stock of items work as intended upon purchase.
I really don't see the issue here.
Clearly the game is in beta so if you're aware that things are broken (feats for example), you're not gonna buy a respec are you? That would be a waste and it would be YOUR fault.
Complaining that there's a working cash shop during a beta............soooo.............don't buy from the cash shop until the game reaches a state you deem worthy of buying from a cash shop.
Why is this hard?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
DDO had two beta releases. The first was 2006 the second beta was launched on a test server and also featured a cash shop. The reason they did this was it was beta and they needed to test the shop as much as other newly incorporated features of the game.