That still wouldn't address the issue with TR's and CW's being able to run content with virtually no class diversity.
As a TR, the only content I can run with no class diversity is actual 5-man dungeons -- & at the uppermost levels, the only reason they can run without class diversity is the double-DC Astral Shield stack.
As a general rule, I think that fixing the problems other classes have, & maybe even buffing them a bit, is a far better method of solving problems then nerfing classes.
Fare you well
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
As a TR, the only content I can run with no class diversity is actual 5-man dungeons -- & at the uppermost levels, the only reason they can run without class diversity is the double-DC Astral Shield stack.
As a general rule, I think that fixing the problems other classes have, & maybe even buffing them a bit, is a far better method of solving problems then nerfing classes.
GF and GWF need massive changes if nothing else is adjusted :P
What kind of crazy buffs do those classes need if you need to make a GF/GWF equal to the ability to stack AS, throw more boss adds off cliffs, or put another TR on the boss?
t2 boss adds and cliffs do more to hurt GF and GWF then their respective terrible agro and damage.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
Every boss is easier with a second DC and no GF. It's sad and makes GFs a pity invite.
We kill faster with a GF and 1 Cleric, no pity needed. And we run Tanks in every group and not Duel cleric's. And have cleared all t2 content this way. 2 Clerics is a crutch and Gf's can tank you just need to learn how.
Or remove the one thing that allows these easy to defeat boss fights, the pits. Add a magical barrier surrounding the area so the adds will not fall off them, thus having to kill them good 'ol fashion way.
Maybe tricking them into flying off into the Abyss -is- the good old fashioned way? You think that the abyss only affects us? Or that somehow they are not in danger of it? Now that just doesn't make sense. Of course they're not immune to the pit.
Sister Vanity knows if you've been naughty or nice...and heals accordingly.
We kill faster with a GF and 1 Cleric, no pity needed. And we run Tanks in every group and not Duel cleric's. And have cleared all t2 content this way. 2 Clerics is a crutch and Gf's can tank you just need to learn how.
Really? Do you take two CW? How exactly do you make, say, the Aboleth most efficient with a GF? You don't have to kill the adds, you can just throw them all off and kill the boss faster.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
Maybe tricking them into flying off into the Abyss -is- the good old fashioned way? You think that the abyss only affects us? Or that somehow they are not in danger of it? Now that just doesn't make sense. Of course they're not immune to the pit.
NW villains are morons when it comes to home decorating.
"What would look good here? hm....."
"How about a cliff and no railing?"
"Great idea!"
Pirate King even put in railings, but that boss can actually fall off his own boat and take your loot with him.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
My years of MMO experience tell me that if you give players a crutch, the majority of them will use it. While I don't think anyone is denying what you're saying, I think it's painfully obvious -- you even allude to it yourself, to an extent -- that what you're doing is not what the majority of players are doing, & I've a feeling that whether they should or not, the devs are going to rebalance based on what the majority are doing.
Fare you well
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
0
fluxus111Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
As a TR, the only content I can run with no class diversity is actual 5-man dungeons -- & at the uppermost levels, the only reason they can run without class diversity is the double-DC Astral Shield stack.
As a general rule, I think that fixing the problems other classes have, & maybe even buffing them a bit, is a far better method of solving problems then nerfing classes.
I've got a 60 TR. Agree with everything you just said. They've got to give GFs an AE taunt or tweak aggro to make it extremely painful for TRs and CWs. I'm also of the opinion that GCs are in need of some tweaks. I've only played my GC up to lvl 22, but I see some problems: GFs don't do enough DPS to stay as healed as other classes. Targeting them is nearly impossible. If they give GFs an AE taunt, then they've gotta do something about their survivability.
That said, we're still in Beta and it's awesome so far. Game mechanics will be tweaked. GFs are in the game for a reason. It's not working now, but I trust it will work in the near future. My 3rd character is a GF, but I'm not playing him until things get adjusted to make them viable in a party.
NW villains are morons when it comes to home decorating.
"What would look good here? hm....."
"How about a cliff and no railing?"
"Great idea!"
Pirate King even put in railings, but that boss can actually fall off his own boat and take your loot with him.
Obviously they used the Imperial contractors from Star Wars. Those poor guys in the Death Star fire control room... not even a piece of plexiglass between the operators and the giant laser beam. And you have to wonder if the Emperor's last thought might have been, "Gee, I really should have put a cover over this 4,000 meter deep hole in my office."
I've got a 60 TR. Agree with everything you just said. They've got to give GFs an AE taunt or tweak aggro to make it extremely painful for TRs and CWs. I'm also of the opinion that GCs are in need of some tweaks. I've only played my GC up to lvl 22, but I see some problems: GFs don't do enough DPS to stay as healed as other classes. Targeting them is nearly impossible. If they give GFs an AE taunt, then they've gotta do something about their survivability.
That said, we're still in Beta and it's awesome so far. Game mechanics will be tweaked. GFs are in the game for a reason. It's not working now, but I trust it will work in the near future. My 3rd character is a GF, but I'm not playing him until things get adjusted to make them viable in a party.
Agro hardly matters until most of the hardest fights no longer involve everything going off a cliff Using AoE taunt and block to grab adds and move them into better push positions is a living I guess. **** it feels lame though. Feel bad for GWF really.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
1 Rogue, 2 Cw's 1 Cleric 1 Tank or 2 Rogues, 1 Cw, 1 Cleric, 1 Tank depending on what we are running your GF's mark alone reduces damage done. We just burn adds while tank off tank's them. There are certain fight which are much harder for a GF, but that no reason not bring one, and yes alot of the strategies involve disposing of Mobs but there are other ways to kill a boss, Sometimes it is slower but other times its faster and Surprisingly legitimately killing a boss is easier with a GF.
the amout of group I see using walls (climb so mobs can't attack), glitch's (door's) is sad. But thier is a place for GF's you Dont need to have 2 Cleric's. For example, ran Never today with 2 Cw's, 1 GF, 1 Rogue, 1 Cleric. No issue's. Oh, and if you didnt know thier a small hotfix you can do to fix Cleric's threat, with Sooth slotted when you enter the dungeon unequip armour and reequip, presto no massive aggro.
I've got a 60 TR. Agree with everything you just said. They've got to give GFs an AE taunt or tweak aggro to make it extremely painful for TRs and CWs. I'm also of the opinion that GCs are in need of some tweaks. I've only played my GC up to lvl 22, but I see some problems: GFs don't do enough DPS to stay as healed as other classes. Targeting them is nearly impossible. If they give GFs an AE taunt, then they've gotta do something about their survivability.
That said, we're still in Beta and it's awesome so far. Game mechanics will be tweaked. GFs are in the game for a reason. It's not working now, but I trust it will work in the near future. My 3rd character is a GF, but I'm not playing him until things get adjusted to make them viable in a party.
GF's Have an AOE taunt its called enforced threat and it works. As for survivability.... 57.8% damage reduction without buffs 32k HP and a massive Guard meter yea we're good.
1 Rogue, 2 Cw's 1 Cleric 1 Tank or 2 Rogues, 1 Cw, 1 Cleric, 1 Tank depending on what we are running your GF's mark alone reduces damage done. We just burn adds while tank off tank's them. There are certain fight which are much harder for a GF, but that no reason not bring one, and yes alot of the strategies involve disposing of Mobs but there are other ways to kill a boss, Sometimes it is slower but other times its faster and Surprisingly legitimately killing a boss is easier with a GF.
the amout of group I see using walls (climb so mobs can't attack), glitch's (door's) is sad. But thier is a place for GF's you Dont need to have 2 Cleric's. For example, ran Never today with 2 Cw's, 1 GF, 1 Rogue, 1 Cleric. No issue's. Oh, and if you didnt know thier a small hotfix you can do to fix Cleric's threat, with Sooth slotted when you enter the dungeon unequip armour and reequip, presto no massive aggro.
The fights that actually force you to kill/kite adds instead of throwing off cliffs in t2 (yay for GF!):
Karrundax
Pirate King
Hrimnir
The fights that are quicker and safer if the adds all go off cliffs (and are much safer with 2 DC, TR CW + 1CW or TR):
Aboleth
Brain
Spider Woman
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
The fights that actually force you to kill/kite adds instead of throwing off cliffs in t2 (yay for GF!):
Karrundax
Pirate King
Hrimnir
The fights that are quicker and safer if the adds all go off cliffs (and are much safer with 2 DC, TR CW + 1CW or TR):
Aboleth
Brain
Spider Woman
Agree, but a GF is not usless and spider is 50/50 a gf can be used effectively to kite/edge tank to make add disposal eaisier. In no fight is there no place for a GF it depends on the player's. Guardian Fighter's Not working as Intended...Maybe : Broken... No way.
Agree, but a GF is not usless and spider is 50/50 a gf can be used effectively to kite/edge tank to make add disposal eaisier. In no fight is there no place for a GF it depends on the player's. Guardian Fighter's Not working as Intended...Maybe : Broken... No way.
It's not that there is no place for GF, it's that replacing one can actually make your life easier. It feels wrong.
In the end I pity most GFs because I play one. When I queue with friends, some random ******* occasionally sees my class then boots me before I even finish loading. They just drop group and we queue alone.
I feel really badly for solo queuing GFs :P
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
It's the community's perception of the GF not the class its self it's tricky to play well I have 3 60's Cleric, GF and CW all geared and its by far the hardest class to play well, maybe its too hard and need to be made eaisier, all GF skill's are about timing and how you use it as well as being in the right place, flipping mobs that Cone/line attack chain your daily's with marks for added threat and making sure your dps arn't splitting dps and pulling aggro off you. You have to worry about alot more than just pretty number's or OMG I just crit for 40 Million!! and now I pulled aggro and am dead.
GF's Have an AOE taunt its called enforced threat and it works. As for survivability.... 57.8% damage reduction without buffs 32k HP and a massive Guard meter yea we're good.
The funniest part of that is that two of the feats that would boost Guard and damage reduction do not currently function(strength focus and Armor spec).
If you're a human when you mouse over defense on the character sheet it shows how much the 3% gives you, the 15% however is nowhere to be found. Same with the bonus AC it supposedly gives.
As for strength focus it has no effect as far as I can tell, at 24/25(fire buff) strength it should increase damage by at least 2-4%, it doesn't. (2.25% if it calculates 15% of the bonus, 3.75% if it is supposed to effectively increase total strength by 15%)
It's the community's perception of the GF not the class its self it's tricky to play well I have 3 60's Cleric, GF and CW all geared and its by far the hardest class to play well, maybe its too hard and need to be made eaisier, all GF skill's are about timing and how you use it as well as being in the right place, flipping mobs that Cone/line attack chain your daily's with marks for added threat and making sure your dps arn't splitting dps and pulling aggro off you. You have to worry about alot more than just pretty number's or OMG I just crit for 40 Million!! and now I pulled aggro and am dead.
Too many pie's in the air maybe the issue?
I just think the class is built without a clear purpose once you get past the name. Right now, to actually spec tanky is to have no chance in holding real agro or do real damage.
GF needs conqueror threat in tactician/prot specs and survivability like it's standing on a permanent AS. Otherwise it's not even equal to putting down an AS. Fights are slower but so much safer with two DC.
Boss add numbers and raw damage needs to go down a little too probably.
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
0
ironmanfuryMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited May 2013
Omg learn 2 play and spec right guy's. your clearly thinking Tanking the Old ways, and Never heard or {using} >>''Knights Valor''<<
and Maby use your Shields much more instead of Waving your sword around like a blender!!Your all need 2 Derp less and Start Playing Right...thx
I Hold aggro from a 11k geared Rogue's (guildies) who joke about trying to pull it off me. Its true not much damage though. Amazingly if you Hold shift and left click the attack is a TAUNT! and if you mark the target first and then attack it you get additional aggro. /sigh I read the forums and see people complaining about aggro holding,I don't see it. its not a hit one button and you have the threat like some games... you have to fight for it. Stalwart's set bonus help alot thou, it changed tanking for me, I wear it over my t2 set.
Edit: Knight valor is amazing when its working. otherwise I switch it out with into the fray
I Hold aggro from a 11k geared Rogue's (guildies) who joke about trying to pull it off me. Its true not much damage though. Amazingly if you Hold shift and left click the attack is a TAUNT! and if you mark the target first and then attack it you get additional aggro. /sigh I read the forums and see people complaining about aggro holding,I don't see it. its not a hit one button and you have the threat like some games... you have to fight for it. Stalwart's set bonus help alot thou, it changed tanking for me, I wear it over my t2 set.
Mark should persist through an unblocked hit :P
Use the <removed exploit lead-in> to interact with the auction vendor.
If Knight's Valor worked properly and had a few seconds lower cooldown (so that it can be up at least 70% of the time) then I could see tanking working in the game. Astral shield forces your party to stay in one place, properly working Knight's Valor would allow a group to move freely on the battlefield while still being protected.
The real problem of this game is that they made a tank class that is good only as dps. They made an aoe class but GF do aoe aswell. You can spec DPS and tank aswell. So why make a real tank? Use envy's build or something similar and enjoy your GF. The CC you can put is enough to be the first in damage taken and avoid damage for your teammates. I love a game were cleric don't only spam heal and tank has to move and think, but it's clear that is not working properly.
I'd say a more ideal setting you be the GF focus the boss or the biggest/hard hitting mob and let a GWF off tank adds, they got good AOE and having lots of adds just builds up unstoppable faster which gives increase attack speed and damage reduction, thats honestly how i'd say a group should be functioning, with a cleric blue circle on em.
Comments
Every boss is easier with a second DC and no GF. It's sad and makes GFs a pity invite.
As a TR, the only content I can run with no class diversity is actual 5-man dungeons -- & at the uppermost levels, the only reason they can run without class diversity is the double-DC Astral Shield stack.
As a general rule, I think that fixing the problems other classes have, & maybe even buffing them a bit, is a far better method of solving problems then nerfing classes.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
GF and GWF need massive changes if nothing else is adjusted :P
What kind of crazy buffs do those classes need if you need to make a GF/GWF equal to the ability to stack AS, throw more boss adds off cliffs, or put another TR on the boss?
t2 boss adds and cliffs do more to hurt GF and GWF then their respective terrible agro and damage.
Here you go. http://nw.perfectworld.com/news/?p=877081
We kill faster with a GF and 1 Cleric, no pity needed. And we run Tanks in every group and not Duel cleric's. And have cleared all t2 content this way. 2 Clerics is a crutch and Gf's can tank you just need to learn how.
Maybe tricking them into flying off into the Abyss -is- the good old fashioned way? You think that the abyss only affects us? Or that somehow they are not in danger of it? Now that just doesn't make sense. Of course they're not immune to the pit.
Really? Do you take two CW? How exactly do you make, say, the Aboleth most efficient with a GF? You don't have to kill the adds, you can just throw them all off and kill the boss faster.
NW villains are morons when it comes to home decorating.
"What would look good here? hm....."
"How about a cliff and no railing?"
"Great idea!"
Pirate King even put in railings, but that boss can actually fall off his own boat and take your loot with him.
My years of MMO experience tell me that if you give players a crutch, the majority of them will use it. While I don't think anyone is denying what you're saying, I think it's painfully obvious -- you even allude to it yourself, to an extent -- that what you're doing is not what the majority of players are doing, & I've a feeling that whether they should or not, the devs are going to rebalance based on what the majority are doing.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
I've got a 60 TR. Agree with everything you just said. They've got to give GFs an AE taunt or tweak aggro to make it extremely painful for TRs and CWs. I'm also of the opinion that GCs are in need of some tweaks. I've only played my GC up to lvl 22, but I see some problems: GFs don't do enough DPS to stay as healed as other classes. Targeting them is nearly impossible. If they give GFs an AE taunt, then they've gotta do something about their survivability.
That said, we're still in Beta and it's awesome so far. Game mechanics will be tweaked. GFs are in the game for a reason. It's not working now, but I trust it will work in the near future. My 3rd character is a GF, but I'm not playing him until things get adjusted to make them viable in a party.
Obviously they used the Imperial contractors from Star Wars. Those poor guys in the Death Star fire control room... not even a piece of plexiglass between the operators and the giant laser beam. And you have to wonder if the Emperor's last thought might have been, "Gee, I really should have put a cover over this 4,000 meter deep hole in my office."
Agro hardly matters until most of the hardest fights no longer involve everything going off a cliff
the amout of group I see using walls (climb so mobs can't attack), glitch's (door's) is sad. But thier is a place for GF's you Dont need to have 2 Cleric's. For example, ran Never today with 2 Cw's, 1 GF, 1 Rogue, 1 Cleric. No issue's. Oh, and if you didnt know thier a small hotfix you can do to fix Cleric's threat, with Sooth slotted when you enter the dungeon unequip armour and reequip, presto no massive aggro.
GF's Have an AOE taunt its called enforced threat and it works. As for survivability.... 57.8% damage reduction without buffs 32k HP and a massive Guard meter yea we're good.
The fights that actually force you to kill/kite adds instead of throwing off cliffs in t2 (yay for GF!):
Karrundax
Pirate King
Hrimnir
The fights that are quicker and safer if the adds all go off cliffs (and are much safer with 2 DC, TR CW + 1CW or TR):
Aboleth
Brain
Spider Woman
Agree, but a GF is not usless and spider is 50/50 a gf can be used effectively to kite/edge tank to make add disposal eaisier. In no fight is there no place for a GF it depends on the player's. Guardian Fighter's Not working as Intended...Maybe : Broken... No way.
Castle never should a good example of the second form of fight.
I was going to stick to t2 for sake of ease :P
It's not that there is no place for GF, it's that replacing one can actually make your life easier. It feels wrong.
In the end I pity most GFs because I play one. When I queue with friends, some random ******* occasionally sees my class then boots me before I even finish loading. They just drop group and we queue alone.
I feel really badly for solo queuing GFs :P
Too many pie's in the air maybe the issue?
The funniest part of that is that two of the feats that would boost Guard and damage reduction do not currently function(strength focus and Armor spec).
If you're a human when you mouse over defense on the character sheet it shows how much the 3% gives you, the 15% however is nowhere to be found. Same with the bonus AC it supposedly gives.
As for strength focus it has no effect as far as I can tell, at 24/25(fire buff) strength it should increase damage by at least 2-4%, it doesn't. (2.25% if it calculates 15% of the bonus, 3.75% if it is supposed to effectively increase total strength by 15%)
I just think the class is built without a clear purpose once you get past the name. Right now, to actually spec tanky is to have no chance in holding real agro or do real damage.
GF needs conqueror threat in tactician/prot specs and survivability like it's standing on a permanent AS. Otherwise it's not even equal to putting down an AS. Fights are slower but so much safer with two DC.
Boss add numbers and raw damage needs to go down a little too probably.
and Maby use your Shields much more instead of Waving your sword around like a blender!!Your all need 2 Derp less and Start Playing Right...thx
Edit: Knight valor is amazing when its working. otherwise I switch it out with into the fray
Mark should persist through an unblocked hit :P