Meh, all you need to do is make a CW counter. Atm all rogues/GWF's etc. just go full damage. If rogue would stop using their crappy massive 1-shot skills and get some CC/avoidance spells it would be alot easier to counter CW's for people who have problems with them...
Though i myself have seen enough GWF's, TR's and even GF's that actually did spec for it and could pin a CW and burst him down, making sure he couldnt escape.
I think people should focus on making posts about new pvp maps or gamemodes and just wait till people actually get used to PvP before complaining to much.
as a 60 CW (with only 8600 gs so I know I'm not just out gearing every person) I will say we are extremely powerful. Any CW saying he has trouble with X class is probably not specced correctly or just uses bad spells. I've seen so many wizards throwing out sudden storm, conduit, avalanche, and other <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Some don't even use ray of enfeeblement AT ALL. and when I say bad spells I'm only referring to in pvp. pretty much all the wizard spells are good in pve hahaha
if you're having trouble as a wizard in pvp... Try enfeeblement on tab, ice rays, chill strike, entangling force, ice knife daily. you will see why you are so ridiculous. once you complete your 4 set pvp gear to reduce CD on ray by 25% you're even worse as literally every player (their gs or build doesnt matter) melts after being hit with ray twice and other spells. Even more so if any other player is around.
i have even pulled off a few 2 rogues v 1 a few times (with the help of daily which is basically a OHK). as soon as you see them enter stealth (which you basically always will unless youre just not looking at your screen or have your back turned from where you know theyre coming from) just start teleporting right now. the ones with the gap closing ability will usually attempt to do it right away and miss because of your dodge or be outside of range. you get 3 dodges so use em because if they open up on you, youre most likely dead (or really close) if no one is around. i usually just blow 2 of my dodges right then so they cant hit me with smoke bomb or the gap closer, their stealth usually expires, and they die in one rotation of my spells sometimes not even all of them. i usually open with force choke -> ray -> chill strike -> ray again -> ice rays (since you can time this if they try to roll). this has killed every rogue ive ever fought and most other classes too (keep in mind this probably requires proper spec). if one of your abilities was on CD a double ray will also make them do a LOT less damage to you and you can just kite until one of your 3 cc spells comes up. ill only add the small note about rogues because all the other classes are a joke if they try to 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1 you. the 2nd most annoying thing is two clerics using astral shield and staying all bunched up together so you cant focus fire one of them. you'll need ice knife to burst one down if they stack shield.
for those who insist on using repel over ice rays. i guess its ok... but it's a lot more situational and you won't ever use it to finish someone off because if it DOESNT kill them they are now likely out of range of other spells or your teammates and can just continue to run away. an extra snare in ice rays (plus deals pretty great damage) is a lot more beneficial for you and your team. after you've learned to play your class you will almost always be the aggressor and the only defensive abilities you need are your insane 3 dodges.
I have done the same thing you are explaining multiple times. But what you are saying has already been stated, and is missing the point. This thread is about whether or not CW is OP. The fact that a CW does enough damage to drop an opponent in one burst rotation means nothing because every other class can do the exact same thing. I to have won 1v2 against two rogues. But it isn't because I'm that OP, it's because those rogues were garbage. And I know with complete certainty that the two you fought and won against were garbage as well. CW does not by any leap of the imagination have enough CC, ports, and damage to hold off and kill two rogues that play decently. Not only that, but the general scenario you are explaining again points to you fighting <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> rogues. Here let me give you a rule to follow. If a rogue comes at you with all his cooldowns, then fails to dodge your entangling force and your daily then he is trash. ANY ROGUE THAT GETS HIT IN A 1v1 WITH ICE KNIFE, ENTANGLE, OR CHILL STRIKE ARE BAD PLAYERS. ROGUES HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO MASSIVE DMG AT RANGE, THEY CAN GET INTO MELEE RANGE WITH LITTLE EFFORT, THEY CAN DODGE ANY CC A CW HAS, AND THEY CAN KILL A CW IN ONE BURST COMBO. I am so baffled by this! If you are getting caught in CC, or getting smashed in the face with ICE KNIFE it's because you are just dodging to be dodging, and not actually holding it to dodge an actual spell. It means you are a BAD player. You can't always win, but you aren't going to always lose either. A rogue has all the tools it needs to kill a CW.
We're a control class that has ridiculous amounts of dmg for some reason, mainly our only good paragon feats kind of force us into dmg specs.
Dmg in general needs lowering at high end pvp, nobody should be one shotting anyone with dailies.
Exactly someone with some common sense..I agree Scaling of damage is too extreme it's no fun when people near one shot each other. On top of that CW's are far more dangerous than rogues, by the time you get one hit on them your already dead.
It would be nice If PWE make an effort to sort out pvp and it's related issues once and for all so everyone can enjoy it.
Besides that. OP! Myself and Epicerlol put out threads that made your entire argument extremely weak. Instead of replying to those threads, you just ignore them? Besides the universal excess of damage across all classes, any mechanic you have pointed out as OP can be countered by a TR. The class has all the tools required to put down a CW. The problem here is your inability to use those abilities correctly. You are a BAD player.
Seriously though, have you tried using smoke bomb from stealth as your opener? There is little ANYONE can do to combat you when that is done, so it is a great opening move. While big numbers are fun to start off with, smoke with slow is far more effective in the long run.
I have, this is pretty much what I always start out with lol. I don't see where the finish is supposed to come from when I do this (my encounters are 1. dazing strike/deft strike 2. smoke bomb 3. LB atm). The smoke bomb effect does not last long enough for a TR to conjure up a kill vs a good CW (which is how it should be), but after that a TR is dead no matter how good they are cause of the OP stunlock build that a CW has access to.
We should not just make this talk about rogues vs CW's btw - the point is that CW will easily rip up ANY class. Now, the way I see it, this is a team game. GF is a great example of a team player. A good GF who plays his role well (pretty much what Tenkuro describes) is invaluable for the team, same goes for clerics and GWF's. There is a counter for all of them though. For a GF, it's smoke bomb + duelist flurry. Most GF's think they can block through a duelist flurry - yeah, think again. Break their block, pop off a bomb, hf trying to knock me down. Esp fun if you can land a dazing strike on them after that, this usually is the case cause they'll be moving around in circles waiting for the daze to end lol. This doesn't mean that a rogue will always kill a GF though, the GF has an about equal chance to kill a rogue which is how it should be.
CW's role in a team is supposed to be controlling the opponent so that other teammates can pick on them to finish off (such as rogues with their dps), but atm the CW has so much power that they can basically do this all on their own LOL. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the big problem which gives CW's more power than they're supposed to have atm.
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
Besides that. OP! Myself and Epicerlol put out threads that made your entire argument extremely weak. Instead of replying to those threads, you just ignore them? Besides the universal excess of damage across all classes, any mechanic you have pointed out as OP can be countered by a TR. The class has all the tools required to put down a CW. The problem here is your inability to use those abilities correctly. You are a BAD player.
Oh yes, how mature - calling me a bad player because you disagree with something. All that PvP gear with my name behind it on AH must be a fluke, right?
Like I said in the OP, how about we let the Dev's decide? 1 geared lvl 60 CW vs any other class with any gear and any build. See how many times a CW wins. Pro hint: A lot of times.
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
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danxbxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Trust me the CC and dodges wouldn't be a problem if the TTK wasn't so low, but it is.
Dmg in general is just too high in PvP.
Same goes for Rogues, pop LoLCCImmunity and then just 1-2 shot said CW.
Conversely, with just a purple weapon my CW can just Conduit (-15% mitigation feat), Ray of Enfeeblement, another -20% mitigation and -10% defense, then just spam missiles and that will melt someone from 100 to 40% usually.
Or just stack those two, pop daily Ice Knife for 18k crits.
Or just faceroll your keyboard going through Q-R, Choke, Conduit, Ray, Chill Strike, Spam Missiles, said person is stunned for like 3 seconds total maybe, and just melts to 0.
Oh yes, how mature - calling me a bad player because you disagree with something. All that PvP gear with my name behind it on AH must be a fluke, right?
Like I said in the OP, how about we let the Dev's decide? 1 geared lvl 60 CW vs any other class with any gear and any build. See how many times a CW wins. Pro hint: A lot of times.
Again bro you say nothing. I'm not calling you a bad player because I disagree with you. I'm calling you a bad player because of the evidence you have provided. As I said, go gather data of you fighting CWs. Either your combat logs, or preferably video. Or just record your PvP matches in general. Then we can examine what you are doing, and determine if you are playing poorly, or these CWs are in fact too OP to counter. All that gear in the auction house again means nothing lol. Just because you PvP enough to buy a lot of the gear, doesn't mean you are actually good. I can que for PvP and run in circles every match and accomplish that.
I wouldn't be throwing out that challenge either. My GF has never lost 1v1 to anything. ALSO, there is no 1v1 PvP match in this game. Just teams, so that test preformed by the devs would prove nothing. And why let the devs decide when we can discover the truth right here. You have a weak argument, with nothing to back it up, and multiple people have very methodically picked your entire post apart. You have provided no additional information, you just repeat the same things in a different way.
my guardian kills all one vs one i dont have much problem in pvp at all the only things i need to be careful about are
1] giant ice on my head
2) rapid dagger throws from stealth that seem to crit every shot for 2k
3) being thrown around by CW if i get lazy and keep my shield down
i have mad def sitting at just over 5.7k thats 60%(ish) damage reduction so i can tank their team long enough for my team to come watch my pretty corpse get stamped on, my only huge complaint for pvp is the obvious lack of damage the guardian fighter has compared to every other class in pvp said classes have the ability to one - two shot anything on the field where as we have to go through a WHOLE rotation to kill even that rotation isnt guarenteed but if its me vs (insert class) i reign supreme
Claiming that CW are OP in PvP based on the scoresheet is just wrong. You can earn more points by capping than by killing people. As a ranged class with CC CW can stand on the base and cap it while keeping others off it which earns more points than running around killing people. Claiming that CW are OP because you cant kill any of them shows that you either dont understand their weaknesses or your strengths. Other TR have posted that they have no greater problems against CW than other classes so its obviously not a TR vs CW thing across the board.
Bottom line is that PvP matches are team matches. If some god-powered CW is killing your teammate then you should be killing the CW.
Again bro you say nothing. I'm not calling you a bad player because I disagree with you. I'm calling you a bad player because of the evidence you have provided. As I said, go gather data of you fighting CWs. Either your combat logs, or preferably video. Or just record your PvP matches in general. Then we can examine what you are doing, and determine if you are playing poorly, or these CWs are in fact too OP to counter. All that gear in the auction house again means nothing lol. Just because you PvP enough to buy a lot of the gear, doesn't mean you are actually good. I can que for PvP and run in circles every match and accomplish that.
I wouldn't be throwing out that challenge either. My GF has never lost 1v1 to anything. ALSO, there is no 1v1 PvP match in this game. Just teams, so that test preformed by the devs would prove nothing. And why let the devs decide when we can discover the truth right here. You have a weak argument, with nothing to back it up, and multiple people have very methodically picked your entire post apart. You have provided no additional information, you just repeat the same things in a different way.
PvP gear as in the gear you get as a reward for getting top spots, derp. What exactly are you using as an argument? All that I see you say is 'you've already said that' followed by some pseudo insult. Take this for a valid argument for example: Look at the zone chat. How have you not noticed that everybody is asking for CW's instead of rogues for epic dungeon teams? CW's have way, way more perks as it stands atm, I'm not sure how you're even trying to call them perfectly fine/not OP compared to the other classes lol. You have eyes, right? Use them.
P.S. Calls me a bad player based on evidence I've provided ---> asks for evidence. Lelele
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
Claiming that CW are OP in PvP based on the scoresheet is just wrong. You can earn more points by capping than by killing people. As a ranged class with CC CW can stand on the base and cap it while keeping others off it which earns more points than running around killing people. Claiming that CW are OP because you cant kill any of them shows that you either dont understand their weaknesses or your strengths. Other TR have posted that they have no greater problems against CW than other classes so its obviously not a TR vs CW thing across the board.
Bottom line is that PvP matches are team matches. If some god-powered CW is killing your teammate then you should be killing the CW.
I am aware of that - the CW(s) on the top end of the scoresheet always have a huge number of kills compared to the rest though. Yes, it's true that they can pick off weakened opponents from a distance = more kills, but when they also rip through anything with a full LP bar without that opponent even having a chance to get close (they'll just blink if you do get close) then you know that something is not right.
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
PvP gear as in the gear you get as a reward for getting top spots, derp. What exactly are you using as an argument? All that I see you say is 'you've already said that' followed by some pseudo insult. Take this for a valid argument for example: Look at the zone chat. How have you not noticed that everybody is asking for CW's instead of rogues for epic dungeon teams? CW's have way, way more perks as it stands atm, I'm not sure how you're even trying to call them perfectly fine/not OP compared to the other classes lol. You have eyes, right? Use them.
P.S. Calls me a bad player based on evidence I've provided ---> asks for evidence. Lelele
Getting PvP gear from being in the top spots on that chart again proves nothing in regard to your ability to skillfully play your class. However if you would like to say that it does prove your skill in PvP that is fine. But that also means that all those CWs you see at the top of the charts are also there because of their skill. To say otherwise would be contradicting yourself. So are you are the top of the boards, getting that epic loot, because you are good, or because your class is OP? And for the love of god do not say, it's because you always see CW at the top of the charts. Because I always see a fairly even mix of TR, GF, and CW. Could just be that every time you PvP, that opposing CW realizes that you are terribad at fighting CWs, so he picks on you haha.
Either post multiple combat logs, or multiple videos against several CW, or don't post at all. You are telling us that the proof of your claim is so obvious and universally known that no other evidence is needed. This is simply not true, other TRs say they have no problem killing CWs. There are also numerous posts made by CWs stating that they think TRs are OP. They provide no more or less evidence of this than you do. What gives your opinion anymore more validity?
I can't believe you actually said this, but I will address it anyway. CWs are being used in epic dungeons because of the large amount of adds you have to deal with on boss fights. And even if it was because of a class imbalance, that in no way relates to PvP. You just related PvE to PvP which is generally a pretty big no no. This kind of relation is usually only presented by players that have done zero research into the strengths and weaknesses of a class.
I called you a bad player because of the evidence you have presented so far. The evidence you have presented so far is that you have no evidence what so ever other than your poorly built argument based on opinion, while holding up PvP point meters as your smoking gun, but providing zero screenshots. ( Even though it has been established that those charts mean nothing.) It all points to a L2P issue and not a balance issue. I asked you to provide evidence that can be evaluated. So again, either provide us with something that we can actually review, other than your personal opinion, so we can end this here and now, or shush.
Record, or provide combat logs, for 3 PvP matches. Play them as you normally do. With this information we can determine if you need to practice PvPing with your class, or if in fact, TRs are at an unfair disadvantage against a CW. The time has come to put your money where your mouth is...what'll it be friend?
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jnaathraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
The dangerous thing about adjusting any one aspect of PVP, is that you then have to look at every other aspect.
Nerf CC, now the CW is pointless.
Nerf Damage, now the Healer is immortal.
There is no miracle fix and everyone on the forums thinks things are so easy.
Scout Tragold - "I haven't lived this long by being brave... it's just another word for stupid."
Instead of nerfing the more powerful, buff the less powerful. This makes people want to play those buffed classes more, rather than wanting to play the nerfed classes less.
I am aware of that - the CW(s) on the top end of the scoresheet always have a huge number of kills compared to the rest though. Yes, it's true that they can pick off weakened opponents from a distance = more kills, but when they also rip through anything with a full LP bar without that opponent even having a chance to get close (they'll just blink if you do get close) then you know that something is not right.
This is what i mean by repeating the same garbage over and over again. The only part of caydyn2's post that you addressed was how CW gets points from holding objectives, and uses its range to pick off fleeing enemies. You did this with the same information you have already provided, multiple times. You completely ignored the fact that caydyn2 stated," Claiming that CW are OP because you cant kill any of them shows that you either dont understand their weaknesses or your strengths. Other TR have posted that they have no greater problems against CW than other classes so its obviously not a TR vs CW thing across the board." This statement is the core of his message, it was the point he was trying to get across, it was the entire reason he made the post. Yet you completely ignore it? So why is it that other TRs seem to have no issues with CWs?
This is what i mean by repeating the same garbage over and over again. The only part of caydyn2's post that you addressed was how CW gets points from holding objectives, and uses its range to pick off fleeing enemies. You did this with the same information you have already provided, multiple times. You completely ignored the fact that caydyn2 stated," Claiming that CW are OP because you cant kill any of them shows that you either dont understand their weaknesses or your strengths. Other TR have posted that they have no greater problems against CW than other classes so its obviously not a TR vs CW thing across the board." This statement is the core of his message, it was the point he was trying to get across, it was the entire reason he made the post. Yet you completely ignore it? So why is it that other TRs seem to have no issues with CWs?
See I knew it, you little cheater. Told you that the amount of times that you CW's pop that huge dps daily is ridic during a single PvP game. So this is how you're able to do it. No wonder I thought it was an encounter lmao. Every time a CW respawns I get daily'd to almost 0 LP when i attack them once they arrive at my location. Combat experience = far from clueless, I knew something was up and the proof is right there in that link.
Also, I like how you keep saying 'other TR's say....' without providing any sort of evidence like thread links or vid links where this is said/shown. Hey, guess what, other CW's say that they are OP themselves, right here in this thread! You ignore those posts, and the posts in which I make valid points! If you are going to ignore all of that and continue rambling about what you think is true then that is spam, and that means that I'm going to report you. Have a nice day.
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
LOL. If a CW actually took the time to stand around and spam self cast spells to build AP he would not be at the top of the charts. He would be standing around doing damage to no one the entire match while he builds a FRACTION of the AP he can build from engaging targets. I have never seen this done in PvP ever, and neither have you.
Not trying to incite yet another class war, but all I see in this thread is Rogue player misdirecting dissent towards their most obvious rival class. However, I'll de construct, from an attemptedly objective view why this is such a common phenomenon and how it can be (eventually) fixed. Any perceived bias is just to counteract the unbalanced perspectives of the original post. I play a TR, CW and DC.
I suggest you level a CW to level 10 and play around a bit just to get a feel for the mechanics of the class, if you haven't already. The first thing you will notice is that in PvP, the time it takes for a casting animation to finish, is barely shorter than the time your target is controlled. There is no question of whether there is "too much control", when a CW has access to two viable control encounters that combined stun for maybe 2 seconds. You will never see a decent CW use Ray of Frost as, in the time they are channeling up the 6 stacks of chill, they could be doing twice the damage with Magic Missiles. Herein is where the universal problem of max level PvP in NWO comes in, which as already been mentioned in this thread.
The only mechanic I considered particularly "overpowered" on my level 60 CW is the abundance of random passive procs. The Renegade tree alone has two chance based buffs, which give combat advantage and crit severity respectively. On top of this, most CWs will be running Storm Spell, a chance to proc several thousand damage on each instance of damage (each Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement tick etc.) and Eye of the Storm, which gives the CW a 5% chance on skill usage guaranteed critical strikes for 8 seconds.
In any context, this is ridiculous, and it has come to the point where many contests for objectives are dictated by a CW on either side luckily activating the passive and proceeding to melt several players with a series of long range barrages. Essentially, CW has become a heavily RNG based class for no other reason than this was the designers' outlook for the class. Clearly, consideration for balance in PvP was not the main concern during the development phase, especially so with this, and Cryptic has stressed that it never was.
I will not agree however, that CWs are "overpowered" in any other aspect that does not apply to other classes; i.e. damage, range and control. Damage is a pointless thread to pull on, simply because every class suffers from it, it is common knowledge that tuning is far from perfect. Health pools are simply too small in comparison to pre-60 PvP. This has evolved to the point where Guardian Fighters are able to take off half your health with a ranged AoE stun and GWFs who are very strong in PvP for being able to kill in one knockdown and for their double effective health despite second tier status in PvE.
And of course the aforementioned one-shotting by both TRs and CWs.
Eventually this will be ironed out and the playing field will change.
CWs may get the occasional "one shot" when the stars (multitudes of RNG procs) align, but Ice Knife is not without its flaws: namely, the mere lack of useability being a daily, and easiness to dodge given its distinct sound, animation and delay. On the contrary, a TR has the potential to use Lurker's Assault for the 15 second stealth time to get into the perfect position, and the 60% damage plus 25% critical severity to reliably pull 35-40k hits on an unsuspecting backline. While on the subject of dailies, Shocking Execution does a comparable amount of damage from range, but is unmitigatable by things such as Astral Shield as well undodgeable, giving the TR a totally foolproof finisher.
The subject of range is similarly in a state of being "overpowered" simply because the game hasn't developed far enough along its path. CWs are the only damage focused ranged class. Naturally, melee players are going to dislike being hit by something they can't hit. This is a standard mentality present in all MMOs, but is exacerbated by the lack of other ranged classes to share the heat. I guarantee that once the Ranger class is released (an actual "Striker" role), they are certain to deal more damage than the average CW, and will thus be next in firing line for "the most OP class". You read it here first.
Here is one TR in your own thread. I agree with everything he says. And why should I have to provide additional evidence if you don't?
Still waiting on those combat logs... though a simple video would make this much easier.
You've also made zero valid points. You have only stated, in so many ways, that you can't beat control wizards, you believe they are OP, and your proof is that you see them at the top of the PvP scoresheet very often...
By what I can tell a huge potload of our damage comes from Eye of the Storm.
My damage is okay. But when that procs, suddenly nobody stands a chance, at all. Eight seconds of guaranteed crits can turn us into temporary strikers, then when it wears off we're back to doing average damage again.
I think Eye of the Storm has been the biggest contributer for my burst damage. It's a guaranteed Ice Dagger crit. It's guaranteed burst. I've even nuked GFs to oblivion after it procs.
'
But really, if it wasn't for Eye of the Storm, rogues would dominate my *** so hard I'd hate a game whenever I saw there were two or more of them in a match. Particularly the ones that can get CC immunity. They can have CC immunity AND are good single target killers.
Really, me versus a rogue is either. . Eye of the Storm procs and they die. Eye of the Storm doesn't proc and I die. On a rare occasion they power crit me with their daily and one shot me. But the first two cases are most likely.
CWs indeed do a lot of damage for a control class.
See I knew it, you little cheater. Told you that the amount of times that you CW's pop that huge dps daily is ridic during a single PvP game. So this is how you're able to do it. No wonder I thought it was an encounter lmao. Every time a CW respawns I get daily'd to almost 0 LP when i attack them once they arrive at my location. Combat experience = far from clueless, I knew something was up and the proof is right there in that link.
Also, I like how you keep saying 'other TR's say....' without providing any sort of evidence like thread links or vid links where this is said/shown. Hey, guess what, other CW's say that they are OP themselves, right here in this thread! You ignore those posts, and the posts in which I make valid points! If you are going to ignore all of that and continue rambling about what you think is true then that is spam, and that means that I'm going to report you. Have a nice day.
Just finished testing this on my CW. I spammed Storm Pillar for 1 minute and produced 1/4 of my AP bar. This is a bug as it does not occur on any other spell that can be cast without a target. I honestly cannot see how standing still for 4 minutes spamming storm pillar on myself has any advantage what so ever. This is again, another instance of you saying something without actually testing it yourself or having any real knowledge of whats going on.
I wasn't doing all too bad until level 30 as a wizard, but now, whenever I see a rouge I mostly can just let go of the keyboard. Those guys have a skill that creates some purple effect on my cw's head that basically turns all my skills of. Sure, I have a teleport, but if I'm not mistaken it doesn't work at that time as well. So by the time I regain control of my wiz, he has about 10-5% of his lives left or even more often - dead. I have not noticed any of my skills or combinations there of to one hit kill any other class. (level 40 mind you). Point being, the PvP is unbalanced right now. Differently at different stages. Also I feel sorry for the fighter types that attack me. It takes them 4-5 attempts before they reach my wizard.(3 teleports, one jedi grasp, one push, and if I'm lucky, one freez ray.So make that 6 attempts.) By that time it's usually to late.
It might be that we need PvP skills to be slightly adjusted from normal play. More damage to warriors, less control to rouges, less damage to wizards. At least at the moment those are what I am feeling the lack of at levels 20-40.
I wasn't doing all too bad until level 30 as a wizard, but now, whenever I see a rouge I mostly can just let go of the keyboard. Those guys have a skill that creates some purple effect on my cw's head that basically turns all my skills of. Sure, I have a teleport, but if I'm not mistaken it doesn't work at that time as well. So by the time I regain control of my wiz, he has about 10-5% of his lives left or even more often - dead. I have not noticed any of my skills or combinations there of to one hit kill any other class. (level 40 mind you). Point being, the PvP is unbalanced right now. Differently at different stages. Also I feel sorry for the fighter types that attack me. It takes them 4-5 attempts before they reach my wizard.(3 teleports, one jedi grasp, one push, and if I'm lucky, one freez ray.So make that 6 attempts.) By that time it's usually to late.
It might be that we need PvP skills to be slightly adjusted from normal play. More damage to warriors, less control to rouges, less damage to wizards. At least at the moment those are what I am feeling the lack of at levels 20-40.
Most of the 'one hitting' occurs at level 60. By that point rogues can crit for upwards to the 24k ranges while I've occasionally one shot poorly geared folk with Eye of the Storm and Ice Dagger.
I think the epic gear just lets us achieve whole new realms of crazy, but our health pools don't really build to counter it. There's no real way to increase health except through some limited gear bonuses and Con.
I find that basic level 60 enemies can still hurt like hell, but I can pretty much obliterate anything as long as it isn't an ogre or other durable enemies. More damage, same health. Really level 60 PvP, at least as a CW wizard, involves killing someone before they can kill you. And they can kill you very fast.
Just finished testing this on my CW. I spammed Storm Pillar for 1 minute and produced 1/4 of my AP bar. This is a bug as it does not occur on any other spell that can be cast without a target. I honestly cannot see how standing still for 4 minutes spamming storm pillar on myself has any advantage what so ever. This is again, another instance of you saying something without actually testing it yourself or having any real knowledge of whats going on.
They have enough time in between kills to use this which will give more AP points than any other class gets in 1 PvP game. Nowhere did I say that they can get 587487 daily power uses per game using this, nor did I say anywhere that I can never kill CW's. These are all statements that you make, conjured up from thin air. here, can even quote my post on the difference between AP gains on rogues vs CW's:
@Pyke: Just because I don't know the exact name and type of attack doesn't mean that I'm completely clueless. See, a rogue struggles to recover AP unless some dummy attacks the bait and switch fake, and that really just doesn't happen too often (not to mention that it takes up an encounter slot). Daily or no daily, the same CW's used the 'huge ice crystal move that explodes' 3+ times a game, while a rogue struggles to get 2x full daily fills per game. Our 'highest dps' daily (Shocking Ex) also only works if the target has below 50% lp really, while your daily does 3/4th of that damage at full lp AND KNOCKS SOMEONE DOWN = followed by more dps = better daily than SE.
^Page 2.
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
I can see how some CW might spam the spell before the match starts to begin with full AP, I always fight mobs to get my AP to full before queing so I dont see that as a game changer. I can not see any CW that is even partly good stand around doing nothing for 4 minutes just to get a daily back up, fighting for 4 minutes will net you more points and a good chunk of your AP while helping your team win.
I can see how some CW might spam the spell before the match starts to begin with full AP, I always fight mobs to get my AP to full before queing so I dont see that as a game changer. I can not see any CW that is even partly good stand around doing nothing for 4 minutes just to get a daily back up, fighting for 4 minutes will net you more points and a good chunk of your AP while helping your team win.
You also help your team win by standing in zones. CW's will still be able to use this spell to gain AP while waiting for opponent(s) to arrive. I have seen this several times where a CW was casting spells with no opponents around, didn't know what it meant at the time. So yes, this is happening and does give them an extra dps edge (as if they didn't have enough perks already).
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
I completely agree that this bug needs to be fixed. But this alone does not explain how a CW is as OP as you claim they are. You had an entire list of reasons you think CW is OP, then you find one bug that has almost zero impact outside of a CW camping an objective. So unless every CW you have ever lost against was sitting alone at an objective spamming this spell it is pretty irrelevant to the rest of this thread. Obviously if every CW you lost against fit into this scenario you would have noticed a pattern, and included that pattern in your original post. But all in all, even knowing that this can be done, I would never do it because that at-will has a long animation. I good TR would just wait until I was stuck in that animation and attack me on the point. Me being unable to port, would die. Also this bug, if it is being used this way, would be an exploit. So lets hush about it before this thread gets closed for breaking the rules in the UA.
Comments
Though i myself have seen enough GWF's, TR's and even GF's that actually did spec for it and could pin a CW and burst him down, making sure he couldnt escape.
I think people should focus on making posts about new pvp maps or gamemodes and just wait till people actually get used to PvP before complaining to much.
Elf Control Wizard - Dragon
I have done the same thing you are explaining multiple times. But what you are saying has already been stated, and is missing the point. This thread is about whether or not CW is OP. The fact that a CW does enough damage to drop an opponent in one burst rotation means nothing because every other class can do the exact same thing. I to have won 1v2 against two rogues. But it isn't because I'm that OP, it's because those rogues were garbage. And I know with complete certainty that the two you fought and won against were garbage as well. CW does not by any leap of the imagination have enough CC, ports, and damage to hold off and kill two rogues that play decently. Not only that, but the general scenario you are explaining again points to you fighting <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> rogues. Here let me give you a rule to follow. If a rogue comes at you with all his cooldowns, then fails to dodge your entangling force and your daily then he is trash. ANY ROGUE THAT GETS HIT IN A 1v1 WITH ICE KNIFE, ENTANGLE, OR CHILL STRIKE ARE BAD PLAYERS. ROGUES HAVE THE ABILITY TO DO MASSIVE DMG AT RANGE, THEY CAN GET INTO MELEE RANGE WITH LITTLE EFFORT, THEY CAN DODGE ANY CC A CW HAS, AND THEY CAN KILL A CW IN ONE BURST COMBO. I am so baffled by this! If you are getting caught in CC, or getting smashed in the face with ICE KNIFE it's because you are just dodging to be dodging, and not actually holding it to dodge an actual spell. It means you are a BAD player. You can't always win, but you aren't going to always lose either. A rogue has all the tools it needs to kill a CW.
Exactly someone with some common sense..I agree Scaling of damage is too extreme it's no fun when people near one shot each other. On top of that CW's are far more dangerous than rogues, by the time you get one hit on them your already dead.
It would be nice If PWE make an effort to sort out pvp and it's related issues once and for all so everyone can enjoy it.
I have, this is pretty much what I always start out with lol. I don't see where the finish is supposed to come from when I do this (my encounters are 1. dazing strike/deft strike 2. smoke bomb 3. LB atm). The smoke bomb effect does not last long enough for a TR to conjure up a kill vs a good CW (which is how it should be), but after that a TR is dead no matter how good they are cause of the OP stunlock build that a CW has access to.
We should not just make this talk about rogues vs CW's btw - the point is that CW will easily rip up ANY class. Now, the way I see it, this is a team game. GF is a great example of a team player. A good GF who plays his role well (pretty much what Tenkuro describes) is invaluable for the team, same goes for clerics and GWF's. There is a counter for all of them though. For a GF, it's smoke bomb + duelist flurry. Most GF's think they can block through a duelist flurry - yeah, think again. Break their block, pop off a bomb, hf trying to knock me down. Esp fun if you can land a dazing strike on them after that, this usually is the case cause they'll be moving around in circles waiting for the daze to end lol. This doesn't mean that a rogue will always kill a GF though, the GF has an about equal chance to kill a rogue which is how it should be.
CW's role in a team is supposed to be controlling the opponent so that other teammates can pick on them to finish off (such as rogues with their dps), but atm the CW has so much power that they can basically do this all on their own LOL. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the big problem which gives CW's more power than they're supposed to have atm.
Oh yes, how mature - calling me a bad player because you disagree with something. All that PvP gear with my name behind it on AH must be a fluke, right?
Like I said in the OP, how about we let the Dev's decide? 1 geared lvl 60 CW vs any other class with any gear and any build. See how many times a CW wins. Pro hint: A lot of times.
Sure, for 1:1 fight.... What are the other 4 people on your team doing?
Again bro you say nothing. I'm not calling you a bad player because I disagree with you. I'm calling you a bad player because of the evidence you have provided. As I said, go gather data of you fighting CWs. Either your combat logs, or preferably video. Or just record your PvP matches in general. Then we can examine what you are doing, and determine if you are playing poorly, or these CWs are in fact too OP to counter. All that gear in the auction house again means nothing lol. Just because you PvP enough to buy a lot of the gear, doesn't mean you are actually good. I can que for PvP and run in circles every match and accomplish that.
I wouldn't be throwing out that challenge either. My GF has never lost 1v1 to anything. ALSO, there is no 1v1 PvP match in this game. Just teams, so that test preformed by the devs would prove nothing. And why let the devs decide when we can discover the truth right here. You have a weak argument, with nothing to back it up, and multiple people have very methodically picked your entire post apart. You have provided no additional information, you just repeat the same things in a different way.
1] giant ice on my head
2) rapid dagger throws from stealth that seem to crit every shot for 2k
3) being thrown around by CW if i get lazy and keep my shield down
i have mad def sitting at just over 5.7k thats 60%(ish) damage reduction so i can tank their team long enough for my team to come watch my pretty corpse get stamped on, my only huge complaint for pvp is the obvious lack of damage the guardian fighter has compared to every other class in pvp said classes have the ability to one - two shot anything on the field where as we have to go through a WHOLE rotation to kill even that rotation isnt guarenteed but if its me vs (insert class) i reign supreme
Bottom line is that PvP matches are team matches. If some god-powered CW is killing your teammate then you should be killing the CW.
PvP gear as in the gear you get as a reward for getting top spots, derp. What exactly are you using as an argument? All that I see you say is 'you've already said that' followed by some pseudo insult. Take this for a valid argument for example: Look at the zone chat. How have you not noticed that everybody is asking for CW's instead of rogues for epic dungeon teams? CW's have way, way more perks as it stands atm, I'm not sure how you're even trying to call them perfectly fine/not OP compared to the other classes lol. You have eyes, right? Use them.
P.S. Calls me a bad player based on evidence I've provided ---> asks for evidence. Lelele
I am aware of that - the CW(s) on the top end of the scoresheet always have a huge number of kills compared to the rest though. Yes, it's true that they can pick off weakened opponents from a distance = more kills, but when they also rip through anything with a full LP bar without that opponent even having a chance to get close (they'll just blink if you do get close) then you know that something is not right.
Getting PvP gear from being in the top spots on that chart again proves nothing in regard to your ability to skillfully play your class. However if you would like to say that it does prove your skill in PvP that is fine. But that also means that all those CWs you see at the top of the charts are also there because of their skill. To say otherwise would be contradicting yourself. So are you are the top of the boards, getting that epic loot, because you are good, or because your class is OP? And for the love of god do not say, it's because you always see CW at the top of the charts. Because I always see a fairly even mix of TR, GF, and CW. Could just be that every time you PvP, that opposing CW realizes that you are terribad at fighting CWs, so he picks on you haha.
Either post multiple combat logs, or multiple videos against several CW, or don't post at all. You are telling us that the proof of your claim is so obvious and universally known that no other evidence is needed. This is simply not true, other TRs say they have no problem killing CWs. There are also numerous posts made by CWs stating that they think TRs are OP. They provide no more or less evidence of this than you do. What gives your opinion anymore more validity?
I can't believe you actually said this, but I will address it anyway. CWs are being used in epic dungeons because of the large amount of adds you have to deal with on boss fights. And even if it was because of a class imbalance, that in no way relates to PvP. You just related PvE to PvP which is generally a pretty big no no. This kind of relation is usually only presented by players that have done zero research into the strengths and weaknesses of a class.
I called you a bad player because of the evidence you have presented so far. The evidence you have presented so far is that you have no evidence what so ever other than your poorly built argument based on opinion, while holding up PvP point meters as your smoking gun, but providing zero screenshots. ( Even though it has been established that those charts mean nothing.) It all points to a L2P issue and not a balance issue. I asked you to provide evidence that can be evaluated. So again, either provide us with something that we can actually review, other than your personal opinion, so we can end this here and now, or shush.
Record, or provide combat logs, for 3 PvP matches. Play them as you normally do. With this information we can determine if you need to practice PvPing with your class, or if in fact, TRs are at an unfair disadvantage against a CW. The time has come to put your money where your mouth is...what'll it be friend?
Nerf CC, now the CW is pointless.
Nerf Damage, now the Healer is immortal.
There is no miracle fix and everyone on the forums thinks things are so easy.
This is what i mean by repeating the same garbage over and over again. The only part of caydyn2's post that you addressed was how CW gets points from holding objectives, and uses its range to pick off fleeing enemies. You did this with the same information you have already provided, multiple times. You completely ignored the fact that caydyn2 stated," Claiming that CW are OP because you cant kill any of them shows that you either dont understand their weaknesses or your strengths. Other TR have posted that they have no greater problems against CW than other classes so its obviously not a TR vs CW thing across the board." This statement is the core of his message, it was the point he was trying to get across, it was the entire reason he made the post. Yet you completely ignore it? So why is it that other TRs seem to have no issues with CWs?
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?236882-Bug-Report-CW-can-fill-their-AP-meter-out-of-combat
See I knew it, you little cheater. Told you that the amount of times that you CW's pop that huge dps daily is ridic during a single PvP game. So this is how you're able to do it. No wonder I thought it was an encounter lmao. Every time a CW respawns I get daily'd to almost 0 LP when i attack them once they arrive at my location. Combat experience = far from clueless, I knew something was up and the proof is right there in that link.
Also, I like how you keep saying 'other TR's say....' without providing any sort of evidence like thread links or vid links where this is said/shown. Hey, guess what, other CW's say that they are OP themselves, right here in this thread! You ignore those posts, and the posts in which I make valid points! If you are going to ignore all of that and continue rambling about what you think is true then that is spam, and that means that I'm going to report you. Have a nice day.
Rogues should not have been nerfed then.
Here is one TR in your own thread. I agree with everything he says. And why should I have to provide additional evidence if you don't?
Still waiting on those combat logs... though a simple video would make this much easier.
You've also made zero valid points. You have only stated, in so many ways, that you can't beat control wizards, you believe they are OP, and your proof is that you see them at the top of the PvP scoresheet very often...
My damage is okay. But when that procs, suddenly nobody stands a chance, at all. Eight seconds of guaranteed crits can turn us into temporary strikers, then when it wears off we're back to doing average damage again.
I think Eye of the Storm has been the biggest contributer for my burst damage. It's a guaranteed Ice Dagger crit. It's guaranteed burst. I've even nuked GFs to oblivion after it procs.
'
But really, if it wasn't for Eye of the Storm, rogues would dominate my *** so hard I'd hate a game whenever I saw there were two or more of them in a match. Particularly the ones that can get CC immunity. They can have CC immunity AND are good single target killers.
Really, me versus a rogue is either. . Eye of the Storm procs and they die. Eye of the Storm doesn't proc and I die. On a rare occasion they power crit me with their daily and one shot me. But the first two cases are most likely.
CWs indeed do a lot of damage for a control class.
Just finished testing this on my CW. I spammed Storm Pillar for 1 minute and produced 1/4 of my AP bar. This is a bug as it does not occur on any other spell that can be cast without a target. I honestly cannot see how standing still for 4 minutes spamming storm pillar on myself has any advantage what so ever. This is again, another instance of you saying something without actually testing it yourself or having any real knowledge of whats going on.
It might be that we need PvP skills to be slightly adjusted from normal play. More damage to warriors, less control to rouges, less damage to wizards. At least at the moment those are what I am feeling the lack of at levels 20-40.
Most of the 'one hitting' occurs at level 60. By that point rogues can crit for upwards to the 24k ranges while I've occasionally one shot poorly geared folk with Eye of the Storm and Ice Dagger.
I think the epic gear just lets us achieve whole new realms of crazy, but our health pools don't really build to counter it. There's no real way to increase health except through some limited gear bonuses and Con.
I find that basic level 60 enemies can still hurt like hell, but I can pretty much obliterate anything as long as it isn't an ogre or other durable enemies. More damage, same health. Really level 60 PvP, at least as a CW wizard, involves killing someone before they can kill you. And they can kill you very fast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESlId86iQUU&feature=youtu.be
They have enough time in between kills to use this which will give more AP points than any other class gets in 1 PvP game. Nowhere did I say that they can get 587487 daily power uses per game using this, nor did I say anywhere that I can never kill CW's. These are all statements that you make, conjured up from thin air. here, can even quote my post on the difference between AP gains on rogues vs CW's:
^Page 2.
You also help your team win by standing in zones. CW's will still be able to use this spell to gain AP while waiting for opponent(s) to arrive. I have seen this several times where a CW was casting spells with no opponents around, didn't know what it meant at the time. So yes, this is happening and does give them an extra dps edge (as if they didn't have enough perks already).
I completely agree that this bug needs to be fixed. But this alone does not explain how a CW is as OP as you claim they are. You had an entire list of reasons you think CW is OP, then you find one bug that has almost zero impact outside of a CW camping an objective. So unless every CW you have ever lost against was sitting alone at an objective spamming this spell it is pretty irrelevant to the rest of this thread. Obviously if every CW you lost against fit into this scenario you would have noticed a pattern, and included that pattern in your original post. But all in all, even knowing that this can be done, I would never do it because that at-will has a long animation. I good TR would just wait until I was stuck in that animation and attack me on the point. Me being unable to port, would die. Also this bug, if it is being used this way, would be an exploit. So lets hush about it before this thread gets closed for breaking the rules in the UA.
A control class is to supposed to control the map and hold enemies in place, so the DPS teammates can't hit them hard.
Right now, with rogues damaged nerfed, W has amazing CC and amazing damage output. They can do our job and theirs. We can barely do ours.
It's sort of ridiculous. All we can do is put out high damage. Why in the hell should that be nerfed when it's literally all we're good at.