Erdokan. Go to about 1:35 in this video. It was the only actual 1v1 vs a rogue I saw in the video. I am willing to bet this is why you are losing to CWs. That rogue he is fighting at 1:35 did almost everything wrong. He starts off smart, dealing dmg from stealth at range. He then successfully gets some nasty burst onto the CW. Then he completely chokes and dies from full hp, to a CW a few attacks away from being dead. That TR didn't lose because CW is OP. He lost because after he opened onto the CW, he took Entangling Force to the face when he could have simply dodged it. The CW ports, and then the TR for no other reason than to dodge, dodges and avoids zero dmg or cc. Not only did he waste a dodge, and avoid no dmg, but he also sets himself up for another stun to the face with no way to mitigate it. THEN he precedes to dodge again, while he is in melee range, for no other reason than to dodge, putting himself outside of melee range with no more stamina to dodge that big beautiful Ice Knife. Good TRs don't play like that. Further more, given this exact same scenario we see at 1:35, consider this. What if that rogue didn't choke? Let's say the rogue dodges the entangling force. He probably would have killed that CW outright. Let's say that after he took that cc to the face, he didn't just waste his dodge, and used it to dodge Chill Strike instead. That CW probably again would have died out right. That TR was one encounter, or a few at-wills away from killing that CW. He accomplished this while the CW had no form of counter play what so ever. Half his hp was gone before the rogue even left stealth. Then the rogue waits until right after the CW comes out of his port attempting to escape, and nails him. There is literally no way to counter what just happened short of maybe blindly casting an AoE daily and hope you get him.
Erdokan. Go to about 1:35 in this video. It was the only actual 1v1 vs a rogue I saw in the video. I am willing to bet this is why you are losing to CWs. That rogue he is fighting at 1:35 did almost everything wrong. He starts off smart, dealing dmg from stealth at range. He then successfully gets some nasty burst onto the CW. Then he completely chokes and dies from full hp, to a CW a few attacks away from being dead. That TR didn't lose because CW is OP. He lost because after he opened onto the CW, he took Entangling Force to the face when he could have simply dodged it. The CW ports, and then the TR for no other reason than to dodge, dodges and avoids zero dmg or cc. Not only did he waste a dodge, and avoid no dmg, but he also sets himself up for another stun to the face with no way to mitigate it. THEN he precedes to dodge again, while he is in melee range, for no other reason than to dodge, putting himself outside of melee range with no more stamina to dodge that big beautiful Ice Knife. Good TRs don't play like that.
I do not like how you yet again imply that I am a bad player because you assume that I do the same thing, but other than that you're right. One of the things that seriously is an issue is how a CW and only a CW can dodge a hit by blinking even if they do it 1 second after the impact. Getting in melee distance is possible if played well, and so is getting the LB off in time. At this point in time I've outclassed the opponent - so how come that they are not getting punished for it by still being able to dodge the hit after impact? You only get a split second to get close and pop a hit off against any decent CW - they're gone after that.
And yes, the hit is a certain strike, sometimes I'm basically on the same square as them, hit them right in the body, hit connects *wham LB sound* > 1 sec pause > CW blinks and dodges. They should not be allowed to do that since no other class has an equal dodging ability. Sometimes I dodge 0.1 secs too late and fail to dodge that 15k crit from a rogue's LB, so yeah. Is gamebreaking because it uses up the rogue's best dps attack and leaves them in a vulnerable state. This has nothing to do with dying because of not knowing how to play your class, it's simply OP/bugged and needs to be fixed. I very much doubt that this is a ping issue because this doesn't happen against other classes, and I don't notice any lag right before or during the fight.
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
Their control is fine. It's their damage which is unreasonable.
A control class is to supposed to control the map and hold enemies in place, so the DPS teammates can hit them hard.
Right now, with rogues damaged nerfed, W has amazing CC and amazing damage output. They can do our job and theirs. We can barely do ours.
It's sort of ridiculous. All we can do is put out high damage. Why in the hell should that be nerfed when it's literally all we're good at.
^This x100, and it also shows in gear price/epic groups. Top tier CW gear is now more expensive than rogue gear, and people in zone chat are basically only asking for CW's for dps now aswell.
@Bucket: Same here, just trying to help with ironing out the kinks since it's the start of a new game and all.
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
Though you don't think it is ping. I am almost positive that it is. You are saying that port mitigates damage even if the blow has been landed. I simply cannot believe that the devs would have designed it as such. And from a CW or GF perspective fighting rogues, I see the same things happen with dodge. Ability goes off, travels to target, shows contact animation, then the rogues dodge animation goes off taking zero dmg. It isn't lag that would cause this, lag is caused by a drop in FPS. Ping is what would cause this, and until internet across the globe is all fiber optic, this will always be the case. Whoever is geographically closer to Cryptic's servers will always come out faster.
If you have performed the sequence of events shown in that video, but done it successfully, then what are you complaining about? That CW had no way to counter that TR. There was no counter play at all. The only reason the CW survived was because of the multiple mistakes that TR made. A TR, with proper timing and proper dodges, can get into melee range and unload its burst without the CW being able to do anything about it. Whoever flubs the first dodge or port loses...that sounds like balance to me, or close enough to it that this kind of thread shouldn't exist.
Of course I am going to assume you are a bad player. Every scenario you have painted for us readers has more or less explained what we saw in that video. A TR missing his abilities or dodges, getting caught up in cc, and then getting burned down. You can claim that you can't land your encounters because of CW port being OP, but that very poorly played rogue did so, while the CW was trying to port away, and he even did it to a CW that from what I saw isn't too bad at his class. Until you provide us with some kind of data that we can review there is no reason to believe anything other than this is another L2P issue.
Though you don't think it is ping. I am almost positive that it is. You are saying that port mitigates damage even if the blow has been landed. I simply cannot believe that the devs would have designed it as such. And from a CW or GF perspective fighting rogues, I see the same things happen with dodge. Ability goes off, travels to target, shows contact animation, then the rogues dodge animation goes off taking zero dmg. It isn't lag that would cause this, lag is caused by a drop in FPS. Ping is what would cause this, and until internet across the globe is all fiber optic, this will always be the case. Whoever is geographically closer to Cryptic's servers will always come out faster.
If you have performed the sequence of events shown in that video, but done it successfully, then what are you complaining about? That CW had no way to counter that TR. There was no counter play at all. The only reason the CW survived was because of the multiple mistakes that TR made. A TR, with proper timing and proper dodges, can get into melee range and unload its burst without the CW being able to do anything about it. Whoever flubs the first dodge or port loses...that sounds like balance to me, or close enough to it that this kind of thread shouldn't exist.
Of course I am going to assume you are a bad player. Every scenario you have painted for us readers has more or less explained what we saw in that video. A TR missing his abilities or dodges, getting caught up in cc, and then getting burned down. You can claim that you can't land your encounters because of CW port being OP, but that very poorly played rogue did so, while the CW was trying to port away, and he even did it to a CW that from what I saw isn't too bad at his class. Until you provide us with some kind of data that we can review there is no reason to believe anything other than this is another L2P issue.
Yes, but I actually play the game. It sounds like you get most of your info by checking other people's videos and think whatever you see in there = law/truth. I really dislike those types of people. You have to realize that it is very ironic for someone to say 'learn to play' if he/she is playing less than the person that they say it to.
I am typing this purely to help the game become more smooth and balanced, so I have no reason to lie about anything that I say really. The data collecting should be done by the devs, or perhaps a volunteer who knows how to make decent looking videos. I cannot help YOU (not we) out there.
See, I tried to steer the conversation into a less hostile one but it seems that you are just going to persist in trying to get a forum mod to move it to the underdark forum zone or w/e it's called so that you can continue to be OP. Well, that stops here. This is my last reply to you - I advice that you find someone that is able to make videos and is willing to 'collect data' for you.
P.S. I'm actually doing very well against CW's with my new build now since it doesn't rely on the melee connect lol. It doesn't work quite as well against other classes but so many people playing CW so it's kinda necessary. This still doesn't take away the facts mentioned here in this thread (CW replacing rogue as dps class even though rogue is supposed to be it, OP blink, intervals too short between rotation, more AP gains than other classes due to a bug etc). Something really has to be done.
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
Sorry. Didn't mean to turn it bad. But I told you right off the bat that I understand where you are coming from.
I believe that Renegade provides way too much dmg. I don't think the feats themselves are over powered. But they make Magic Missile hit really really hard, not always, but often enough to chunk your life down by 1/4 or more sometimes. Sometimes, even against a GF, with lucky procs I can really put holes into them.
I also think that compounds with the fact that renegade also provides 5% of your total AP bar every time you land a crit. When Magic Missile crits, they all crit. That is now 25% of my AP bar.
This allows renegade to use its encounters more for their utility, while only using a few hard hitters, mixed in with Magic Missile to really wreck peoples day. Especially so when all these random procs start going off and we start critting non stop and now we have combat advantage and then boom our daily is back up.
While this all sounds AMAZING! TR is no joke either man. As you said, your new spec is working well. So my problem is that I really feel like you are exaggerating. TRs kill CWs on a regular basis. But that doesn't mean CW isn't in need of some changes. But lets not get crazy. No one thing is OP about a CW. But when compounded, with a little luck, and build up time it takes to stack those buffs, we reach TR level dmg. Now if you just start taking things away, it will completely break that spec. Thaum is a whole other story, it follows a reverse concept. Your build up time is the time it takes to debuff, and then drop the hammer. The debuffs are all fine, but if you get hit by the hammer, then you probably die. I kinda got off track, but the point is, if you lower our damage, CW will become broken. Then every GWF is going to pop Indomitable run at me, knock me down, and then chop my head off. TR is going to get the jump on me, and manage to get away because I got lucky, or the TR made a mistake. I get my whole combo off on him. But he's still alive and has stealth again, and just ports to me and...chops my head off.
Just standardize AP gain across all classes in normal combat. And lower damage across the boards, but maybe give TR a slight edge...I mean come on, you do get stealth. Then two players actually have to fight each other, and not just DnD style Tekken Juggle you from 100% to nothing.
Of course this means for PvP only... Don't lower damage in PvE haha. That would suck.
Again this is just because dmg in general is just massively inflated come end game.
Which is fine because it's meant to be for PVE.
It's basically like in WoW when everyone is geared up in PvE stuff and jumps into pvp and no one has resilience and just start one shotting each other.
We don't have said Resilience.
Not that I want a pvp stat that would be horrible. But dmg needs to be lowered.
Or rather, the TTK needs to be raised.
PvP right now is basically just an FPS where you have a reticule with training wheels.
This is how a typical match goes for me.
Hide somewhere, come out when people are fighting, find a target, Choke, Ray, DPS with Missiles, no matter who they are (unless they're on Astral Shield) they will lose 60% of their health in 2 seconds, and that's with no follow up, just basic DPS. So I find someone, snipe them from 100-0 in 4 seconds or so and run/hide.
Oh look, some other CW found me, choke, ray, dps, encounters, ponies, blah, blah, dead in 4 seconds.
Seems like you spend more time posting than playing :P
You'd think that haha! But nah, I actually type during commercial breaks on TV and stuff :P. Prem League darts semi's/final was on earlier, lots of commercials in there. Just checking in after a ~3h PvP session. Was paying specific attention to blinks - timed the blinks of one of the CW's I vs'd against and he was able to pop off 4 blinks in the space of <5 seconds. I tried the stamina build and could barely do 3 dodge rolls in <5 secs (I don't use it anymore, respec'd). Either way yeah, 4 dodges in <5 seconds paired with such CC is kinda overkill, if I am free to speak my mind *looks around and hides with stealth before a CW arrives*.
@Pyke: That's alright then. I suppose we could just agree to disagree as long as you leave the 'bad player' stuff behind. I will happily pair up with you if you're in Dragon shard so that you can see how I play and vice versa
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
0
Options
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited May 2013
OK Guys, it's time to keep this a bit more civil. I have removed a couple of posts in this thread for being so redundant I can easily see why they are considered offensive.
Ultimately posting a statement calling somebody bad isn't a good practice. It's made on claims which can't be proven or justified on the forums. Keep those thoughts to yourself. Instead of calling people bad players inform them of ways they could improve their performance in the game.
again... NERF the CW or buff the GWF and orhers!! coz cant see CW kill all fuc...g classes in 5-6 seconds... this is totaly unbalanced! is not fun! today crit me with 9k!! WTF!! 9k!!! lol i have 17k!!! of total HP
I could start making screenies of every PvP game that I play starting now and show how many times the CW's get the highest score. You will be unpleasantly surprised, especially you rogue bashers out there. I can't imagine that it's any different for PvE either. The only reason why rogues might outDPS CW's in PvE is because they can target non moving bosses with their slow startup moves which would get dodged in PvP. The amount of knockdown moves mixed with DPS that CW's have simply cannot stay around, esp if rogues got nerfed twice already.
The huge ice crystal move that explodes and knocks you down deals more damage than a lashing blade crit from stealth. Rogues become visible after using LB, meaning they become vulnerable - CW's, however, still have more CC moves to use after that which will surely kill you if you didn't die already. Best part is that they will likely do this to you without ever being in danger as you cannot get close due to all the knockdown/freeze moves that they are able to cast in a row. The only counter against them are encounter moves that would make a rogue completely useless against anything other than CW's, so that's not an excuse for CW's to remain the same.
Have they even been touched so far? It bothers me quite a bit that rogues were apparently nerfed twice without there being any real good reason for it (esp since our at-wills are garbage) and it would bother me even more if nothing was changed about CW's at all, which seems to be the case.
I have very little desire to reply to comments such as 'got killed by a CW now wants a nerf'. I've obtained roughly
100k glory from PvPing which are more than enough games to come to a conclusion of truths, so please don't bother posting stuff like 'a rogue got top score, what you say is invalid - btw i got 2k glory' either.
I always try to view things from an objective standpoint and the scoreboards in Lvl 60 PvP are statistical proof that CW's have too much control atm. Better yet, Devs - go try to kill a lvl 60 CW with any class using any build. You will probably come to the same conclusion
Let me know what you all think about this subject, without making up stories of you killing CW's easily if possible. If you simply cannot resist posting E-peen comments, do include the build (esp encounter attacks) that allows you to kill CW's as if they're any other class.
I have attained prolly over 350k glory already. I buy sets for my friends. I do play a rogue and I know I play it well in fact.
I believe rogues shocking should be nerfed. Im fine with how rogues are now.
BUT the fact that the cw is the only class in game to 100 - 0 with ice knife is pretty sad. I see nothing being done to the real problem.
They have more damage than a rogue and have all the cc in game. How can this be? are they control wizards or damage wizards? you cant have both. They need a fat nerf on their damage to make them play their role as a controlling character rather than being able to 1 shot someone. not even a rogue can one shot. And I mean literally ONE SHOT 100 - 0 with one button.
I kinda raged today when a 9k gs cw was one shotting me with every ice knife. its completely <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. and you cant see it coming to dodge it.
The pvp in this game wont last much longer with cw's being as good as they are. having 3 blinks, m,ore damage than a rogue AND they are ranged. rogues are squishier than cw's too. its very sad. I'm fine with my nerfs. But please nerf the real problem.
I was hit with a 25k ice knife today..... one shot 100 - 0.... logge doff game and stopped stream early lol.
^Sorry for late reply, but yeah lol. Think LB was nerfed again yet CW dps and all the bugs that make em even better remains untouched. Cool cool...
P.S. Been PvPing 14h a day or so, got around 500k glory in total now. Stacking Jagged Blades cuz my inv is exploding pretty much lmao, AH better go back up quickly. Not sure how much this overflow bag can carry either - there's gotta be over 100 blues in there by now (PvP reward for getting best score).
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
Comments
Erdokan. Go to about 1:35 in this video. It was the only actual 1v1 vs a rogue I saw in the video. I am willing to bet this is why you are losing to CWs. That rogue he is fighting at 1:35 did almost everything wrong. He starts off smart, dealing dmg from stealth at range. He then successfully gets some nasty burst onto the CW. Then he completely chokes and dies from full hp, to a CW a few attacks away from being dead. That TR didn't lose because CW is OP. He lost because after he opened onto the CW, he took Entangling Force to the face when he could have simply dodged it. The CW ports, and then the TR for no other reason than to dodge, dodges and avoids zero dmg or cc. Not only did he waste a dodge, and avoid no dmg, but he also sets himself up for another stun to the face with no way to mitigate it. THEN he precedes to dodge again, while he is in melee range, for no other reason than to dodge, putting himself outside of melee range with no more stamina to dodge that big beautiful Ice Knife. Good TRs don't play like that. Further more, given this exact same scenario we see at 1:35, consider this. What if that rogue didn't choke? Let's say the rogue dodges the entangling force. He probably would have killed that CW outright. Let's say that after he took that cc to the face, he didn't just waste his dodge, and used it to dodge Chill Strike instead. That CW probably again would have died out right. That TR was one encounter, or a few at-wills away from killing that CW. He accomplished this while the CW had no form of counter play what so ever. Half his hp was gone before the rogue even left stealth. Then the rogue waits until right after the CW comes out of his port attempting to escape, and nails him. There is literally no way to counter what just happened short of maybe blindly casting an AoE daily and hope you get him.
I do not like how you yet again imply that I am a bad player because you assume that I do the same thing, but other than that you're right. One of the things that seriously is an issue is how a CW and only a CW can dodge a hit by blinking even if they do it 1 second after the impact. Getting in melee distance is possible if played well, and so is getting the LB off in time. At this point in time I've outclassed the opponent - so how come that they are not getting punished for it by still being able to dodge the hit after impact? You only get a split second to get close and pop a hit off against any decent CW - they're gone after that.
And yes, the hit is a certain strike, sometimes I'm basically on the same square as them, hit them right in the body, hit connects *wham LB sound* > 1 sec pause > CW blinks and dodges. They should not be allowed to do that since no other class has an equal dodging ability. Sometimes I dodge 0.1 secs too late and fail to dodge that 15k crit from a rogue's LB, so yeah. Is gamebreaking because it uses up the rogue's best dps attack and leaves them in a vulnerable state. This has nothing to do with dying because of not knowing how to play your class, it's simply OP/bugged and needs to be fixed. I very much doubt that this is a ping issue because this doesn't happen against other classes, and I don't notice any lag right before or during the fight.
I mean, it's like playing Pong watching them fight with a bit of added explosions..
^This x100, and it also shows in gear price/epic groups. Top tier CW gear is now more expensive than rogue gear, and people in zone chat are basically only asking for CW's for dps now aswell.
@Bucket: Same here, just trying to help with ironing out the kinks since it's the start of a new game and all.
If you have performed the sequence of events shown in that video, but done it successfully, then what are you complaining about? That CW had no way to counter that TR. There was no counter play at all. The only reason the CW survived was because of the multiple mistakes that TR made. A TR, with proper timing and proper dodges, can get into melee range and unload its burst without the CW being able to do anything about it. Whoever flubs the first dodge or port loses...that sounds like balance to me, or close enough to it that this kind of thread shouldn't exist.
Of course I am going to assume you are a bad player. Every scenario you have painted for us readers has more or less explained what we saw in that video. A TR missing his abilities or dodges, getting caught up in cc, and then getting burned down. You can claim that you can't land your encounters because of CW port being OP, but that very poorly played rogue did so, while the CW was trying to port away, and he even did it to a CW that from what I saw isn't too bad at his class. Until you provide us with some kind of data that we can review there is no reason to believe anything other than this is another L2P issue.
Yes, but I actually play the game. It sounds like you get most of your info by checking other people's videos and think whatever you see in there = law/truth. I really dislike those types of people. You have to realize that it is very ironic for someone to say 'learn to play' if he/she is playing less than the person that they say it to.
I am typing this purely to help the game become more smooth and balanced, so I have no reason to lie about anything that I say really. The data collecting should be done by the devs, or perhaps a volunteer who knows how to make decent looking videos. I cannot help YOU (not we) out there.
See, I tried to steer the conversation into a less hostile one but it seems that you are just going to persist in trying to get a forum mod to move it to the underdark forum zone or w/e it's called so that you can continue to be OP. Well, that stops here. This is my last reply to you - I advice that you find someone that is able to make videos and is willing to 'collect data' for you.
P.S. I'm actually doing very well against CW's with my new build now since it doesn't rely on the melee connect lol. It doesn't work quite as well against other classes but so many people playing CW so it's kinda necessary. This still doesn't take away the facts mentioned here in this thread (CW replacing rogue as dps class even though rogue is supposed to be it, OP blink, intervals too short between rotation, more AP gains than other classes due to a bug etc). Something really has to be done.
Again this is just because dmg in general is just massively inflated come end game.
Which is fine because it's meant to be for PVE.
It's basically like in WoW when everyone is geared up in PvE stuff and jumps into pvp and no one has resilience and just start one shotting each other.
We don't have said Resilience.
Not that I want a pvp stat that would be horrible. But dmg needs to be lowered.
Or rather, the TTK needs to be raised.
PvP right now is basically just an FPS where you have a reticule with training wheels.
This is how a typical match goes for me.
Hide somewhere, come out when people are fighting, find a target, Choke, Ray, DPS with Missiles, no matter who they are (unless they're on Astral Shield) they will lose 60% of their health in 2 seconds, and that's with no follow up, just basic DPS. So I find someone, snipe them from 100-0 in 4 seconds or so and run/hide.
Oh look, some other CW found me, choke, ray, dps, encounters, ponies, blah, blah, dead in 4 seconds.
You'd think that haha! But nah, I actually type during commercial breaks on TV and stuff :P. Prem League darts semi's/final was on earlier, lots of commercials in there. Just checking in after a ~3h PvP session. Was paying specific attention to blinks - timed the blinks of one of the CW's I vs'd against and he was able to pop off 4 blinks in the space of <5 seconds. I tried the stamina build and could barely do 3 dodge rolls in <5 secs
@Pyke: That's alright then. I suppose we could just agree to disagree as long as you leave the 'bad player' stuff behind. I will happily pair up with you if you're in Dragon shard so that you can see how I play and vice versa
Ultimately posting a statement calling somebody bad isn't a good practice. It's made on claims which can't be proven or justified on the forums. Keep those thoughts to yourself. Instead of calling people bad players inform them of ways they could improve their performance in the game.
I have attained prolly over 350k glory already. I buy sets for my friends. I do play a rogue and I know I play it well in fact.
Montage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTuOxmxG_gA
I believe rogues shocking should be nerfed. Im fine with how rogues are now.
BUT the fact that the cw is the only class in game to 100 - 0 with ice knife is pretty sad. I see nothing being done to the real problem.
They have more damage than a rogue and have all the cc in game. How can this be? are they control wizards or damage wizards? you cant have both. They need a fat nerf on their damage to make them play their role as a controlling character rather than being able to 1 shot someone. not even a rogue can one shot. And I mean literally ONE SHOT 100 - 0 with one button.
I kinda raged today when a 9k gs cw was one shotting me with every ice knife. its completely <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. and you cant see it coming to dodge it.
The pvp in this game wont last much longer with cw's being as good as they are. having 3 blinks, m,ore damage than a rogue AND they are ranged. rogues are squishier than cw's too. its very sad. I'm fine with my nerfs. But please nerf the real problem.
I was hit with a 25k ice knife today..... one shot 100 - 0.... logge doff game and stopped stream early lol.
P.S. Been PvPing 14h a day or so, got around 500k glory in total now. Stacking Jagged Blades cuz my inv is exploding pretty much lmao, AH better go back up quickly. Not sure how much this overflow bag can carry either - there's gotta be over 100 blues in there by now (PvP reward for getting best score).