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Control Wizard - Too much control
erdokan
Member Posts: 188 Arc User
I could start making screenies of every PvP game that I play starting now and show how many times the CW's get the highest score. You will be unpleasantly surprised, especially you rogue bashers out there. I can't imagine that it's any different for PvE either. The only reason why rogues might outDPS CW's in PvE is because they can target non moving bosses with their slow startup moves which would get dodged in PvP. The amount of knockdown moves mixed with DPS that CW's have simply cannot stay around, esp if rogues got nerfed twice already.
The huge ice crystal move that explodes and knocks you down deals more damage than a lashing blade crit from stealth. Rogues become visible after using LB, meaning they become vulnerable - CW's, however, still have more CC moves to use after that which will surely kill you if you didn't die already. Best part is that they will likely do this to you without ever being in danger as you cannot get close due to all the knockdown/freeze moves that they are able to cast in a row. The only counter against them are encounter moves that would make a rogue completely useless against anything other than CW's, so that's not an excuse for CW's to remain the same.
Have they even been touched so far? It bothers me quite a bit that rogues were apparently nerfed twice without there being any real good reason for it (esp since our at-wills are garbage) and it would bother me even more if nothing was changed about CW's at all, which seems to be the case.
I have very little desire to reply to comments such as 'got killed by a CW now wants a nerf'. I've obtained roughly
100k glory from PvPing which are more than enough games to come to a conclusion of truths, so please don't bother posting stuff like 'a rogue got top score, what you say is invalid - btw i got 2k glory' either.
I always try to view things from an objective standpoint and the scoreboards in Lvl 60 PvP are statistical proof that CW's have too much control atm. Better yet, Devs - go try to kill a lvl 60 CW with any class using any build. You will probably come to the same conclusion
Let me know what you all think about this subject, without making up stories of you killing CW's easily if possible. If you simply cannot resist posting E-peen comments, do include the build (esp encounter attacks) that allows you to kill CW's as if they're any other class.
The huge ice crystal move that explodes and knocks you down deals more damage than a lashing blade crit from stealth. Rogues become visible after using LB, meaning they become vulnerable - CW's, however, still have more CC moves to use after that which will surely kill you if you didn't die already. Best part is that they will likely do this to you without ever being in danger as you cannot get close due to all the knockdown/freeze moves that they are able to cast in a row. The only counter against them are encounter moves that would make a rogue completely useless against anything other than CW's, so that's not an excuse for CW's to remain the same.
Have they even been touched so far? It bothers me quite a bit that rogues were apparently nerfed twice without there being any real good reason for it (esp since our at-wills are garbage) and it would bother me even more if nothing was changed about CW's at all, which seems to be the case.
I have very little desire to reply to comments such as 'got killed by a CW now wants a nerf'. I've obtained roughly
100k glory from PvPing which are more than enough games to come to a conclusion of truths, so please don't bother posting stuff like 'a rogue got top score, what you say is invalid - btw i got 2k glory' either.
I always try to view things from an objective standpoint and the scoreboards in Lvl 60 PvP are statistical proof that CW's have too much control atm. Better yet, Devs - go try to kill a lvl 60 CW with any class using any build. You will probably come to the same conclusion
Let me know what you all think about this subject, without making up stories of you killing CW's easily if possible. If you simply cannot resist posting E-peen comments, do include the build (esp encounter attacks) that allows you to kill CW's as if they're any other class.
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
Post edited by erdokan on
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We're a control class that has ridiculous amounts of dmg for some reason, mainly our only good paragon feats kind of force us into dmg specs.
Dmg in general needs lowering at high end pvp, nobody should be one shotting anyone with dailies.
Kinda went with the word control cause 'Control Wizard'
Yeah, that reminds me. I believe either int or wisdom does something against magic resistance but other than that there's not really anything that you can do against the DPS of a CW. And, as with builds, putting a decent amount of points into wis or int would also make melee classes less effective in what they're supposed to do, nor would it even matter because CW's do so much DPS that you're probably already dead with them having another control move to spare. They would simply kill you with that attack if you'd have more magic resistance, lol.
^^^
-Travail.
Are you sure? That is rather odd, because my gear isn't fully dps based - I have a few defence based pieces equipped. 9k gs atm, the highest would be like 12k or so at this time? Yet even CW's with an equal gs rip through it. This leads me to believe that even having that top tier gear is not going to make a difference. Suppose it's like Knoteskad said then
Personally I don't care for the daily Ice strike as it knocks everything away from you... translating into dispersing the crowd and in PVP helping your enemy escape by giving them a boost. I want to keep people centralized and in-range. Control wizards are wizards with great power and very squishie, currently our only paragon path is DPS. I imagine future paths will open up other options.
Trust me the CC and dodges wouldn't be a problem if the TTK wasn't so low, but it is.
Dmg in general is just too high in PvP.
Same goes for Rogues, pop LoLCCImmunity and then just 1-2 shot said CW.
Conversely, with just a purple weapon my CW can just Conduit (-15% mitigation feat), Ray of Enfeeblement, another -20% mitigation and -10% defense, then just spam missiles and that will melt someone from 100 to 40% usually.
Or just stack those two, pop daily Ice Knife for 18k crits.
Or just faceroll your keyboard going through Q-R, Choke, Conduit, Ray, Chill Strike, Spam Missiles, said person is stunned for like 3 seconds total maybe, and just melts to 0.
CW vs CW, whoever cc's first insta-wins.
Clerics aren't innocent either, stack 3 dots, destroy their armor, melted.
I've had GWF's 100-0 me in a full stunlock too.
Knockdown knockdown knockdown knockdown, 100%, 75%, 50%, 0%.
And this is just a simple 1v1, have 4-5 people killing each other and people die instantly lol.
Stun locking someone for 4 seconds wouldn't be an issue, at all, if people didn't die in those 4 seconds, but they do.
That move is called Lashing Blade. That still leaves you with 7k lp though. How are they going to remove that remaining 7k lp from your health bar? Cloud of steel has a fairly poor range and you will need a full charge bar + use it up to kill the CW. You don't get the chance to though, because you will be locked by another control move after you throw like 5 knives. Can't dodge either due to the stamina drain from the icy tornado attack.
Impossible to catch would only leave rogues with 1 more encounter slot and none of those encounters will be able to get close to the CW apart from path of blades and deft strike. Smoke bomb is pretty much a must have which means that LB (20s CD), cloud of steel and 3 at-wills which all completely fail is all the attacking power that a rogue has (excluding daily powers).
Mhmm, I agree with this.
Strangle is obviously the main one, and then the mini-stun of Chill Strike. I've seen some use Slow Time but find it underwhelming in PVP (mostly because of the channel time.) Due to the lack of controlling spells for PVP, it seems like they've replaced it by giving us more damage as well as a longer range. Honestly the best counter for a CW is either another CW, or well-timed disables. If we can't do anything, we melt very quickly.
As for 'the huge ice crystal move that explodes and knocks you down deals more damage than a lashing blade crit from stealth.'
This is our daily - single target massive damage, much like a Rogue's Shocking Execution; you'll only be dealing with this every few skirmishes/teamfights. We don't have a high-damage encounter skill such as Lashing Blade (the closest would be Chill Strike, and that's nowhere near the same damage.)
Someone who plays a rogue posted in a different (but similar in topic) thread to this one, saying that close range they win against a CW 9/10 times - but if they get caught out from long range, the CW wins 9/10 times. I think this rings true from my experiences in PVP as a CW as well - it's all about who gets their combo off first, really - who catches the other off guard, and generally who has the better positioning.
I haven't kept track of all the glory I've made from PVP'ing - but it's enough to have bought myself a full set of PVP gear, gotten rid of it for T2 gear, and then geared up my alternate Cleric fully while selling/donating random pieces on the side. In the end I likely have around the same experience you do, and I'm surprised you still have this much trouble dealing with a CW.
Also reading over your post there's a few things that stand out that may help you vs CWs. First don's be to flashy in combat. Trying to open with LB or another high CD will get you dodged, CCed, and nuked easily every time. Also "(esp since our at-wills are garbage)",... Rogues cloud of steel is an amazing ability and your go to skill for killing CW. When you face a CW open with Cloud of steel, since it doesn't break your stealth, the CW will be forced to get chunked half hp or dodge with having no target to retaliate. Key off the CW to time your bigger CD after initial cos. Also never instantly follow a CW with they blink wait a second to "dodge" their follow up atk.
Its all basic pvp just got to know the classes your fighting. I'm a 11.5k GS CW and the biggest mistake i see rogue doing is trying to instantly hop n and nuke me. You'll be caught n outplayed every time. Rogues can easily control the pace of the fight just need to learn to be subtle.
The post above me explains what your mindset should be. Don't be so flashy. Though be careful when dodging an ability after we have ported away. Every ability has a different animation. Nothing we have is instant cast, though Repel is pretty close to instant. It all requires a wind up that gives you ample time to determine the ability being cast, and then decide if you should dodge. Dodge the wrong ability and it could very well be the last dodge you make.
Do you really think that our stealth stays up THAT long for us to do half LP damage with cloud of steel, followed by a lashing blade? That is a fairytale, one that you might think is true because a rogue THAT YOU DIDN'T SEE COMING snuck up on you and started throwing daggers (used stealth when close so has high enough stealth meter left), then deft strike'd+ LB'd you for the kill. Any rogue that you see coming = you have the advantage, and from there it's game over really. All that the rogue can do from that point on is try to do everything you just mentioned apart from the cloud of steel bit, AND as you said - that won't be enough to kill you. Now, it would be a fun fight if CW's didn't do as much bloody damage along with the CC but they do. OP, should be nerfed.
Note that I have points towards improved cunning sneak and wear the pvp set that gives 20% more stealth meter. So yes, the way I see it, you have way more opportunities to kill rogues than rogues have to kill CW's.
@Pyke: Just because I don't know the exact name and type of attack doesn't mean that I'm completely clueless. See, a rogue struggles to recover AP unless some dummy attacks the bait and switch fake, and that really just doesn't happen too often (not to mention that it takes up an encounter slot). Daily or no daily, the same CW's used the 'huge ice crystal move that explodes' 3+ times a game, while a rogue struggles to get 2x full daily fills per game. Our 'highest dps' daily (Shocking Ex) also only works if the target has below 50% lp really, while your daily does 3/4th of that damage at full lp AND KNOCKS SOMEONE DOWN = followed by more dps = better daily than SE.
Lastly, don't patronize me. 'amazing rogues'...the game is barely out for 2 weeks. They are not better than me and I am not better than them - they simply vidded their experience. I've pulled off some amazing kills myself but didn't vid them, and they had nothing to do with 2 shotting people - just pulling kills off while getting piled. I'm also an experienced MMO player and am very high ranked on one of them - the famous vid makers get tons of praise for stuff that I do with ease on there lol, so I can attest to the fact that it is extremely stupid and biased to bring such an argument into the mix.
I understand that you like your class, but since rogues got nerfed twice and the fact that CW's are now outclassing every other class in PvP by far (again, scoreboard in lvl 60 PvP backs this up) means that something has to be done before we get a situation similiar to D3 where barbs are 2x better than any other class and almost everyone rolls them.
You didn't really say anything. You already said all of that. I posted something that countered your argument. You reply with the same information... Besides that, I did agree that CW does too much damage. Why you use this bit too defend your previous statement escapes me, but you did it none the less... Besides that, you literally just said, " Just because I don't know the name and type of attack doesn't mean I am completely clueless." I AGREE, you are not completely clueless, but you are partially clueless. And now that that has been established, again, you should become knowledgeable before you decide to inform others, or you just look like a total jack ***... Of course the people that make videos get credit, it's kinda the point. But I never once said anything about anyone ever making a video. And finally, the chart at the end of any PvP match is not proof of anything what so ever. To believe that it does is very short sighted. That chart provides zero representation for class balance. If you really need me to explain why, I will, but it would make this post much longer. Go collect data that we can all review, from multiple sources, and then we will go over it and we can decide right here in this thread if CW is in fact OP.
I suggest you level a CW to level 10 and play around a bit just to get a feel for the mechanics of the class, if you haven't already. The first thing you will notice is that in PvP, the time it takes for a casting animation to finish, is barely shorter than the time your target is controlled. There is no question of whether there is "too much control", when a CW has access to two viable control encounters that combined stun for maybe 2 seconds. You will never see a decent CW use Ray of Frost as, in the time they are channeling up the 6 stacks of chill, they could be doing twice the damage with Magic Missiles. Herein is where the universal problem of max level PvP in NWO comes in, which as already been mentioned in this thread.
The only mechanic I considered particularly "overpowered" on my level 60 CW is the abundance of random passive procs. The Renegade tree alone has two chance based buffs, which give combat advantage and crit severity respectively. On top of this, most CWs will be running Storm Spell, a chance to proc several thousand damage on each instance of damage (each Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement tick etc.) and Eye of the Storm, which gives the CW a 5% chance on skill usage guaranteed critical strikes for 8 seconds.
In any context, this is ridiculous, and it has come to the point where many contests for objectives are dictated by a CW on either side luckily activating the passive and proceeding to melt several players with a series of long range barrages. Essentially, CW has become a heavily RNG based class for no other reason than this was the designers' outlook for the class. Clearly, consideration for balance in PvP was not the main concern during the development phase, especially so with this, and Cryptic has stressed that it never was.
I will not agree however, that CWs are "overpowered" in any other aspect that does not apply to other classes; i.e. damage, range and control. Damage is a pointless thread to pull on, simply because every class suffers from it, it is common knowledge that tuning is far from perfect. Health pools are simply too small in comparison to pre-60 PvP. This has evolved to the point where Guardian Fighters are able to take off half your health with a ranged AoE stun and GWFs who are very strong in PvP for being able to kill in one knockdown and for their double effective health despite second tier status in PvE.
And of course the aforementioned one-shotting by both TRs and CWs.
Eventually this will be ironed out and the playing field will change.
CWs may get the occasional "one shot" when the stars (multitudes of RNG procs) align, but Ice Knife is not without its flaws: namely, the mere lack of useability being a daily, and easiness to dodge given its distinct sound, animation and delay. On the contrary, a TR has the potential to use Lurker's Assault for the 15 second stealth time to get into the perfect position, and the 60% damage plus 25% critical severity to reliably pull 35-40k hits on an unsuspecting backline. While on the subject of dailies, Shocking Execution does a comparable amount of damage from range, but is unmitigatable by things such as Astral Shield as well undodgeable, giving the TR a totally foolproof finisher.
The subject of range is similarly in a state of being "overpowered" simply because the game hasn't developed far enough along its path. CWs are the only damage focused ranged class. Naturally, melee players are going to dislike being hit by something they can't hit. This is a standard mentality present in all MMOs, but is exacerbated by the lack of other ranged classes to share the heat. I guarantee that once the Ranger class is released (an actual "Striker" role), they are certain to deal more damage than the average CW, and will thus be next in firing line for "the most OP class". You read it here first.
Rogues are fine... in fact they are more than fine. Rogues do the more ranged damage than even ranged classes and yet you are still here *****ing. Most of a CWs "control" last all of a second. Compare that to GFs and GWFs that can make you prone for much longer than any CW. There is a little L2P in order here.
What he said ^^^. I can't tell you how many times I've been insta-gibbed from stealth when a rogue uses his smoke bomb. Even if I manage to get out of it they can still pump out insane crits just by throwing daggers.
if you're having trouble as a wizard in pvp... Try enfeeblement on tab, ice rays, chill strike, entangling force, ice knife daily. you will see why you are so ridiculous. once you complete your 4 set pvp gear to reduce CD on ray by 25% you're even worse as literally every player (their gs or build doesnt matter) melts after being hit with ray twice and other spells. Even more so if any other player is around.
i have even pulled off a few 2 rogues v 1 a few times (with the help of daily which is basically a OHK). as soon as you see them enter stealth (which you basically always will unless youre just not looking at your screen or have your back turned from where you know theyre coming from) just start teleporting right now. the ones with the gap closing ability will usually attempt to do it right away and miss because of your dodge or be outside of range. you get 3 dodges so use em because if they open up on you, youre most likely dead (or really close) if no one is around. i usually just blow 2 of my dodges right then so they cant hit me with smoke bomb or the gap closer, their stealth usually expires, and they die in one rotation of my spells sometimes not even all of them. i usually open with force choke -> ray -> chill strike -> ray again -> ice rays (since you can time this if they try to roll). this has killed every rogue ive ever fought and most other classes too (keep in mind this probably requires proper spec). if one of your abilities was on CD a double ray will also make them do a LOT less damage to you and you can just kite until one of your 3 cc spells comes up. ill only add the small note about rogues because all the other classes are a joke if they try to 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1 you. the 2nd most annoying thing is two clerics using astral shield and staying all bunched up together so you cant focus fire one of them. you'll need ice knife to burst one down if they stack shield.
for those who insist on using repel over ice rays. i guess its ok... but it's a lot more situational and you won't ever use it to finish someone off because if it DOESNT kill them they are now likely out of range of other spells or your teammates and can just continue to run away. an extra snare in ice rays (plus deals pretty great damage) is a lot more beneficial for you and your team. after you've learned to play your class you will almost always be the aggressor and the only defensive abilities you need are your insane 3 dodges.
^^^^
Exactly. Thank god for the final few posts, it's apparently quite difficult to explain the situation by merely talking about it rather than making a vid of it which would show that there is nothing that I can do about the deaths vs a CW due to their combo of CC, rotation and melting power.
@Kidbs: 1 sec control, yes - you obviously know what you're talking about. Not. Come dragon shard vs me btw and I'll show you who needs to learn how to play.
Seriously though, have you tried using smoke bomb from stealth as your opener? There is little ANYONE can do to combat you when that is done, so it is a great opening move. While big numbers are fun to start off with, smoke with slow is far more effective in the long run.
As a CW rouges can insta-kill me. GWFs can stunlock me with one cheesy skill. Tanks can tank my damage and block spells way too long. Healers can OP heal themselves and the team. Everything is in order with CW.
Bunch of lemmings.
Because most of them hit level 60 and realize rogues are terrible and the two classes that shine are CW and GF. CW can spec full CC + Enfeeble and kill any single target without ever taking damage. Good thing this is a team game though. By going full CC + Enfeeble build, they have to stand still most of the time while doing their CC so your teammates can easily wipe them out. Just don't try to 1 v 1 them.
Oh, I have no counter for GF. It usually takes an entire team to kill my GF which means I've done my job and allowed my teammates to cap the other two points.
A well played GF is the toughest opponent out there. There just aren't many around (thankfully for me).
Cleric and GWF are the weakest, imo, though not by much. A GWF is highly skill dependent and will punish those who make a mistake against them. I have seen some clerics that will melt my CW face though, still not sure how they pull that off since I have only ever run into two who managed it and I was dead before I could process what was going on.
CW and TR are about equal in power. The problem that most people have with realizing that though is that most TR like to be stabby and tend to forsake their control abilities for more stabbiness. A well played rogue has more control than a CW, though they do sacrifice some of their burst to attain that.