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CW Knockback is helpful or rage inducing?
spacejew
Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
I've noticed that Mages that use their knockbacks make instances take almost twice to three times as long as they normally do. They also create more aggro for the Cleric, and render Great Weapon Fighters useless, all the while assuring the team that if they go down they'll have too many add's to effectively burn anymore.
Now, it's true that technically most of the mobs get knocked back constantly and if they wipe after a boss fight then it's all gravy. HOWEVER, if you have a Great Weapon Fighter in your group and you see their health at %50 please do not run right up next to them and pop your biggest baddest knockback. A nanosecond later you would see an unstoppable giant with slam going to get all that nasty aggro and burn down the add's. Arguably what I'm supposed to be doing.
Again, I don't have an inherent issue with knockback but when your alternative gathers all the bad guys up into a neat little AoE burning pile why do you immediately follow up with an AoE knockback spreading them all over creation? Seriously, I'm curious.
Had two dungeons in a row with a mage that took aggro on themselves, and kited everything around for several minutes even outside of boss fights. None of the DPS could help them out, so we just left him behind to kite the dungeon to his hearts content while we went and killed the bosses. Just to note, these were two different mages. The really irritating thing is they pulled this while everyone was at full health. There was no reason to throw out so many knockbacks.
TL;DR
Mages, use your 'gather them up' skills instead of your 'throw them everywhere' skills unless the party is seriously about to wipe. If you do not have a GWF, I understand since you don't have an add tank but I'm very confused why this gets pulled when I'm in team. Guessing there are a lot of terribad GWF or something?
Now, it's true that technically most of the mobs get knocked back constantly and if they wipe after a boss fight then it's all gravy. HOWEVER, if you have a Great Weapon Fighter in your group and you see their health at %50 please do not run right up next to them and pop your biggest baddest knockback. A nanosecond later you would see an unstoppable giant with slam going to get all that nasty aggro and burn down the add's. Arguably what I'm supposed to be doing.
Again, I don't have an inherent issue with knockback but when your alternative gathers all the bad guys up into a neat little AoE burning pile why do you immediately follow up with an AoE knockback spreading them all over creation? Seriously, I'm curious.
Had two dungeons in a row with a mage that took aggro on themselves, and kited everything around for several minutes even outside of boss fights. None of the DPS could help them out, so we just left him behind to kite the dungeon to his hearts content while we went and killed the bosses. Just to note, these were two different mages. The really irritating thing is they pulled this while everyone was at full health. There was no reason to throw out so many knockbacks.
TL;DR
Mages, use your 'gather them up' skills instead of your 'throw them everywhere' skills unless the party is seriously about to wipe. If you do not have a GWF, I understand since you don't have an add tank but I'm very confused why this gets pulled when I'm in team. Guessing there are a lot of terribad GWF or something?
MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
Post edited by spacejew on
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Comments
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
adds huddled together and under control... dont use knoclk back... i never use knock back on the mobs being killed unless it compromises the healer. too bad most people are not bright enough to use basic logic in most situations.
Aye to clarify my previous post the "just cause" is what I was talking about. A mage that can use the knock backs intelligently is awesome.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
It is literally impossible for me to get aggro back on a group after a CW pops their knockback. That's it for that fight, you're on your own. I can't even do damage effectively, so often times I just stop and watch. It's more relaxing than chasing down mobs to do negligible single target damage. This is with me using Come and Get It, which does gather them but the Mage knockback seems to put every single one of those mobs outside the range of CaGI. (It's a darn good knockback, when you use it right.)
This isn't unique to Neverwinter. Large knockback abilities need to be used with caution and with your group in mind.
As to using your "Gather them up" skills instead of knock back, well, in order to be able to use that "Gather them up" skill AKA Arcane Singularity, we need action points. I run an AoE based control build, and can usually have Arcane Singularity up every 15 seconds or so depending on the mob size. AoE chill, shard, stun and knock back, then gather them up into a nice little ball for our tank.
In the Lair of the Pirate King, I myself think that a knock back CW is vital to the success of winning the boss battle with ease. Your DC is going to have adds aggro all the time, period. And your CW SHOULD be able to keep the mobs off of him indefinitely with of course, knock back, and his AoE stun, with some other AoE skills to build up action points, all the while keeping the adds off of your TR and tank with arcane singularity.
It's all situational, but if your CW actually knows what he's doing, it shouldn't be rage inducing at all.
Know that the CW isn't the only one with a gather. The knockback utterly screws my rotation, and significantly reduces the damage I deal and makes the add's last longer. Now, one could infer that I'm just mad that my damage delt was low. This is not the case. I don't care about overall damage numbers, I care about doing the instance with the least amount of pain possible.
The only time I can understand using a knockback is when the Cleric is being mobbed or when there's a cliff. A well-timed AoE knockback from the CW will allow me to pop Come and Get It near the area where the mobs land, and a follow up Not So Fast and they belong to me.
Honestly, the thing that really irritates me isn't the knockback. It's when the knockback scatters the mobs to the four winds. If they all get knocked in the same direction it's an easy enough chore to gather them back up. However, there are CW that view two mobs standing next to each other as an affront to their very nature.
This is just a Public Service Announcement to all CW, please think before you use your gigantor knockbacks.
I suppose it's also a PSA to tell GWF to stop dropping the ball and use their control abilities in big add fights. If you have three single target damage abilities slotted in dungeons like Pirate King you're already doing it wrong. (Unless you're in a static group and have something else worked out.)
I totally agree. It's the one's that don't know what they're doing that ruin instances. Especially when I kindly ask that they stop doing Knockback so I can gather and burn, then they ignore me completely. I understand it's a new game, but when your off-tank is asking you to stop doing something that ruins their tanking maybe you should listen. (I routinely pull aggro off the Guardian and end up face-tanking everything. Not on purpose, mind you, it just happens. And yes, I chug potions like they're going out of style.)
i ask them once not to do it, and if it happens again i cut my losses and leave. GF have no que waits anyway.
Of course, it's gold in PvP for knocking other players off of points, and a good Wizard will use it intelligently in dungeons to help with add control. If more Wizards realized that knockbacks are situational, and used this ability appropriately, there would be no problem.
-Travail.
Drives me bat**** crazy when the other CW is having a contest with himself to see how far he can spread everything.
But knock backs generally keep your melee dps from doing there job, prevent tank from generating aggro and over all just lengthens the over all experience. When is it ok to use knockbacks? to get mobs off of the healer, or knock mobs into pits or traps. Frankly i've seen guys you talk about just spam knockbacks...and if you ask me they are just hitting a key evertime its off cooldown and care little for actual rotations and utility.
Solution?
Repel needs to have its damage knocked into the gutter, needs to do little to no damage, and be a sheerly escape move. Much like heroic leap does jack all for damage and is there to get close to an enemy so to does repel need to just be nerfed. Idea that its doing heavy CC and heavy damage is a good sign that it needs looked at. Ice storm i think whole move needs looked into if you ask me...how is that an ice storm per say? also reading power from the actual book! says its suppose to " immobilize " the target, not knock them back so i do think this power needs to have its knockback removed entirely and make it immobilize targets so they cant move.
Just my thoughts though as a CW myself.
Repel is the other big encounter knockback. I actually find it very useful, even at 36. It can knock an errant mob off a healer or injured teammate, or off a cliff or into a trap. Or I can use it to push a mob back to the tank. I may switch it out later for something else (Ray of Enfeeblement, perhaps), but it's great mini-control (and recharges quickly).
I have seen CW's I've teamed with using knockback whenever they can. I find it annoying as well. I prefer if the mobs are grouped together, since many of my spells do AOE damage.
You guys forget, CW are not the only ones with a knock back in this game.
Back on point, they should give us more control abilities than knock backs as a CW.
-Kymos
In general circumstances CWs should not have knockbacks equipped. However, There are several spots (especially in T2s) in which knocking mobs off ledges is highly desirable.
Basically knockback is another tool in the CW's control powers. The advantage is that it can knock an opponent off of a foe, the problem is you never want to be doing that to a tank unless the tank is going down and the tank shouldn't be going down.
If the CW is watching for adds and keeping them off of the cleric then it can be useful so long as the tank hasn't also targeted that foe. So in general knockback powers are not good for team play but are great for solo and small group play if you don't have a tank.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It may have less impact on the lower leveled dungeons, but you don't survive the higher tiered ones with that attitude.
And the knock backs aren't the problem, it's the CW who uses them when they are not needed.
I'll also point out that I've found just as many clerics are guilty of using knocks for absolutely no reason. I've had clerics knock plenty of groups that I've gathered up to stun with Steal Time only to miss all of them.
I'm built on aoe, and when i got them all for steal time and Conduit of Ice, someone comes and knocks them all out of aoe range just before cast goes of.