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CW Knockback is helpful or rage inducing?

spacejewspacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
edited July 2013 in PvE Discussion
I've noticed that Mages that use their knockbacks make instances take almost twice to three times as long as they normally do. They also create more aggro for the Cleric, and render Great Weapon Fighters useless, all the while assuring the team that if they go down they'll have too many add's to effectively burn anymore.

Now, it's true that technically most of the mobs get knocked back constantly and if they wipe after a boss fight then it's all gravy. HOWEVER, if you have a Great Weapon Fighter in your group and you see their health at %50 please do not run right up next to them and pop your biggest baddest knockback. A nanosecond later you would see an unstoppable giant with slam going to get all that nasty aggro and burn down the add's. Arguably what I'm supposed to be doing.

Again, I don't have an inherent issue with knockback but when your alternative gathers all the bad guys up into a neat little AoE burning pile why do you immediately follow up with an AoE knockback spreading them all over creation? Seriously, I'm curious.

Had two dungeons in a row with a mage that took aggro on themselves, and kited everything around for several minutes even outside of boss fights. None of the DPS could help them out, so we just left him behind to kite the dungeon to his hearts content while we went and killed the bosses. Just to note, these were two different mages. The really irritating thing is they pulled this while everyone was at full health. There was no reason to throw out so many knockbacks.

TL;DR

Mages, use your 'gather them up' skills instead of your 'throw them everywhere' skills unless the party is seriously about to wipe. If you do not have a GWF, I understand since you don't have an add tank but I'm very confused why this gets pulled when I'm in team. Guessing there are a lot of terribad GWF or something?
MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
Post edited by spacejew on
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Comments

  • pilf3rpilf3r Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I find the knock backs annoying, how many times do you go to use a special move and miss because the mage decides to knock-back as your animation is going off.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Neverwinter Thieves Guild
  • elyrielleelyrielle Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    If they're smart with it (knock off a ledge onto traps/fall damage for mobs) it can speed things up. Can also save people when the **** hits the fan. But 'just cause' is a bad idea.
  • swamprobswamprob Member Posts: 107 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Mine is off my bar for group stuff. It is useful solo, but it's too annoying in groups. I rarely use Ice Storm for the same reason.
  • back2workback2work Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    a good CW knows when to use it and when not in groups. adds on the healer.. blackhole not up... use knockback to get em off him. ton of adds ... cliff near by... use knock back......
    adds huddled together and under control... dont use knoclk back... i never use knock back on the mobs being killed unless it compromises the healer. too bad most people are not bright enough to use basic logic in most situations.
  • xxxretsopmixxxretsopmi Member Posts: 82 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Too many CW noobs use them as a rotation. Every CD they burn their KBs. Even if they fix aggro for GFs it's still going to be annoying with all the **** CWs around.
  • soulwarrior78soulwarrior78 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 541 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Extremely useful in pvp, but a big no-no in pve, unless it's to use singularity to gather all the adds near the edge and knock them off the ledge and to their deaths.
  • pilf3rpilf3r Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    elyrielle wrote: »
    If they're smart with it (knock off a ledge onto traps/fall damage for mobs) it can speed things up. Can also save people when the **** hits the fan. But 'just cause' is a bad idea.


    Aye to clarify my previous post the "just cause" is what I was talking about. A mage that can use the knock backs intelligently is awesome.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Neverwinter Thieves Guild
  • spacejewspacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Perhaps CW are confused, and think they rolled an add tank class? I mean, I've seen some good CW do some amazing stuff don't get me wrong. Two of them together can be unstoppable. More often, though, I see half decent CW trying to pull the stuff the really good CW did and faceplant a few moments later when they get all the aggro and can't cycle their knockbacks fast enough.

    It is literally impossible for me to get aggro back on a group after a CW pops their knockback. That's it for that fight, you're on your own. I can't even do damage effectively, so often times I just stop and watch. It's more relaxing than chasing down mobs to do negligible single target damage. This is with me using Come and Get It, which does gather them but the Mage knockback seems to put every single one of those mobs outside the range of CaGI. (It's a darn good knockback, when you use it right.)

    This isn't unique to Neverwinter. Large knockback abilities need to be used with caution and with your group in mind.
    MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
  • sk8ermikehsk8ermikeh Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Well, from a situational knock back CW, I can both agree and disagree with spacejew. It can be pretty annoying getting everything pushed away from you when a CW has no clue what they're doing and just runs around spamming shield, but it can also be quite useful at times. Basically the only epic I run this on is Pirate King, while sometimes on Idris as well (If we don't have a GWF, or our tank is lacking). The mobs are large enough that you can keep them clumped after your knock back consistently, and in Pirate King, the cliffs are such a wonderful thing.

    As to using your "Gather them up" skills instead of knock back, well, in order to be able to use that "Gather them up" skill AKA Arcane Singularity, we need action points. I run an AoE based control build, and can usually have Arcane Singularity up every 15 seconds or so depending on the mob size. AoE chill, shard, stun and knock back, then gather them up into a nice little ball for our tank.

    In the Lair of the Pirate King, I myself think that a knock back CW is vital to the success of winning the boss battle with ease. Your DC is going to have adds aggro all the time, period. And your CW SHOULD be able to keep the mobs off of him indefinitely with of course, knock back, and his AoE stun, with some other AoE skills to build up action points, all the while keeping the adds off of your TR and tank with arcane singularity.

    It's all situational, but if your CW actually knows what he's doing, it shouldn't be rage inducing at all.
  • spacejewspacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Know what I do in Pirate King on my GWF? I kill all the add's at the Kings Feet. All of them. The second a knockback goes off and spreads them, they are beyond my control and become 'someone elses problem', usually the Cleric, who then dies a horrible death.

    Know that the CW isn't the only one with a gather. The knockback utterly screws my rotation, and significantly reduces the damage I deal and makes the add's last longer. Now, one could infer that I'm just mad that my damage delt was low. This is not the case. I don't care about overall damage numbers, I care about doing the instance with the least amount of pain possible.

    The only time I can understand using a knockback is when the Cleric is being mobbed or when there's a cliff. A well-timed AoE knockback from the CW will allow me to pop Come and Get It near the area where the mobs land, and a follow up Not So Fast and they belong to me.

    Honestly, the thing that really irritates me isn't the knockback. It's when the knockback scatters the mobs to the four winds. If they all get knocked in the same direction it's an easy enough chore to gather them back up. However, there are CW that view two mobs standing next to each other as an affront to their very nature.

    This is just a Public Service Announcement to all CW, please think before you use your gigantor knockbacks.

    I suppose it's also a PSA to tell GWF to stop dropping the ball and use their control abilities in big add fights. If you have three single target damage abilities slotted in dungeons like Pirate King you're already doing it wrong. (Unless you're in a static group and have something else worked out.)
    It's all situational, but if your CW actually knows what he's doing, it shouldn't be rage inducing at all.

    I totally agree. It's the one's that don't know what they're doing that ruin instances. Especially when I kindly ask that they stop doing Knockback so I can gather and burn, then they ignore me completely. I understand it's a new game, but when your off-tank is asking you to stop doing something that ruins their tanking maybe you should listen. (I routinely pull aggro off the Guardian and end up face-tanking everything. Not on purpose, mind you, it just happens. And yes, I chug potions like they're going out of style.)
    MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
  • mythrildragonmythrildragon Member Posts: 138 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    rage inducing.

    i ask them once not to do it, and if it happens again i cut my losses and leave. GF have no que waits anyway.
  • isopointisopoint Member Posts: 193 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    CW isn't the only one that can do it. Pretty sure it was the GWF in my group that was doing it on pirate.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    spacejew wrote: »
    Know what I do in Pirate King on my GWF? I kill all the add's at the Kings Feet. All of them. The second a knockback goes off and spreads them, they are beyond my control and become 'someone elses problem', usually the Cleric, who then dies a horrible death.

    Know that the CW isn't the only one with a gather. The knockback utterly screws my rotation, and significantly reduces the damage I deal and makes the add's last longer. Now, one could infer that I'm just mad that my damage delt was low. This is not the case. I don't care about overall damage numbers, I care about doing the instance with the least amount of pain possible.

    The only time I can understand using a knockback is when the Cleric is being mobbed or when there's a cliff. A well-timed AoE knockback from the CW will allow me to pop Come and Get It near the area where the mobs land, and a follow up Not So Fast and they belong to me.

    Honestly, the thing that really irritates me isn't the knockback. It's when the knockback scatters the mobs to the four winds. If they all get knocked in the same direction it's an easy enough chore to gather them back up. However, there are CW that view two mobs standing next to each other as an affront to their very nature.

    This is just a Public Service Announcement to all CW, please think before you use your gigantor knockbacks.

    I suppose it's also a PSA to tell GWF to stop dropping the ball and use their control abilities in big add fights. If you have three single target damage abilities slotted in dungeons like Pirate King you're already doing it wrong. (Unless you're in a static group and have something else worked out.)



    I totally agree. It's the one's that don't know what they're doing that ruin instances. Especially when I kindly ask that they stop doing Knockback so I can gather and burn, then they ignore me completely. I understand it's a new game, but when your off-tank is asking you to stop doing something that ruins their tanking maybe you should listen. (I routinely pull aggro off the Guardian and end up face-tanking everything. Not on purpose, mind you, it just happens. And yes, I chug potions like they're going out of style.)
    My main is a cw, was in a dungeon the otherday, had the mobs gathered and time stopped in place and was unloading aoe's when another cw sent them flying every single fight. It's not just cw's it's bad cw's.
  • nismunismu Member Posts: 47
    edited May 2013
    as cw it annoys me when guardian (or might been gwf, not sure which) keeps knocking my monster groups and spread them around ans away from my aoes :(
  • travail01travail01 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 151 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    That knockback is the only reason I'm forced to keep Deft Strike on my Rogue's ability bar during dungeon runs. It's definitely more annoying than helpful, but only because there are Wizards out there who spam it every time it comes off of cooldown.

    Of course, it's gold in PvP for knocking other players off of points, and a good Wizard will use it intelligently in dungeons to help with add control. If more Wizards realized that knockbacks are situational, and used this ability appropriately, there would be no problem.

    -Travail.
    Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
  • onictusonictus Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    CW here, and I yell you other CWs for using ice storm and (*@#(&@% masteried repels in dungeouns. I don't even run with a knockback on my bar in groups, if the cleric gets swarmed he can use a divinity'd nova, for me is singularity, steal time and strangle.

    Drives me bat**** crazy when the other CW is having a contest with himself to see how far he can spread everything.
  • lokaidraxmartislokaidraxmartis Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    From what i have personally seen and read, is that slotting repel into your spell mastery slot, allows one to build action points super fast, and deal incredable damage on top of it. Why is that a problem? anyone that knows anything about mmos knows that knockbacks 9/10 make pve harder not easier. To all the CW's spamming knockbacks just stop... as a CW myself i go through an entire dungeon with out once using a knockback except for the occasional ice storm. Now granted i'm an oppressor so i dont focus on sheer damage, and on top of this i can lock down heavy mobs indefinably with minimal effort.

    But knock backs generally keep your melee dps from doing there job, prevent tank from generating aggro and over all just lengthens the over all experience. When is it ok to use knockbacks? to get mobs off of the healer, or knock mobs into pits or traps. Frankly i've seen guys you talk about just spam knockbacks...and if you ask me they are just hitting a key evertime its off cooldown and care little for actual rotations and utility.

    Solution?
    Repel needs to have its damage knocked into the gutter, needs to do little to no damage, and be a sheerly escape move. Much like heroic leap does jack all for damage and is there to get close to an enemy so to does repel need to just be nerfed. Idea that its doing heavy CC and heavy damage is a good sign that it needs looked at. Ice storm i think whole move needs looked into if you ask me...how is that an ice storm per say? also reading power from the actual book! says its suppose to " immobilize " the target, not knock them back so i do think this power needs to have its knockback removed entirely and make it immobilize targets so they cant move.

    Just my thoughts though as a CW myself.
  • onictusonictus Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Repel with mastery hits EVERY mob in the line its fired on, I usually start dropping the mobs on another CWs head for that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, being able to choose with singularity is a beautiful thing.
  • pahnyepahnye Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    This is my complaint, also. when I am playing my guard. I just get them all nicely marked and grab all that agro so the GWF can kill them in a tight group and the CW knocks them all over the bloody place, putting everyone in danger. Would be nice if they would note what the other players were doing once in a while.
  • d3martusd3martus Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I can't imagine ever using Ice Storm in a group setting, unless it's PVP. We have much better dailies for PVE groups, IMO.

    Repel is the other big encounter knockback. I actually find it very useful, even at 36. It can knock an errant mob off a healer or injured teammate, or off a cliff or into a trap. Or I can use it to push a mob back to the tank. I may switch it out later for something else (Ray of Enfeeblement, perhaps), but it's great mini-control (and recharges quickly).

    I have seen CW's I've teamed with using knockback whenever they can. I find it annoying as well. I prefer if the mobs are grouped together, since many of my spells do AOE damage.
  • alchemydevilalchemydevil Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I see this all the time in dungeons and skirmishes, it is VERY annoying. I have read the fanboys comments that a "good" CW won't use this spell unless it suits the situation, but let's be realistic.... 90% of gamers are CASUAL players and skill and tactics are not a high priority on their spell rotation. They see the cooldown is ready for their spell and whammo mobs go flying in all directions. In a perfect world we could hope for other players to use intelligence and tactics to work with their fellow group members.... but..... this is far from a perfect world and there are way to many players that really have no idea that what they are doing is affecting the group.
  • nwobrocknwobrock Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Silverstars Posts: 151 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I want to find the addresses of everyone that uses the Dire Wolf companion...I will burninate their thatched roof cottage.
  • gomok72gomok72 Member Posts: 616 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    GWF do the same **** with roar and everyone blames the CW, I know because it has happened to me several times in a dungeon.
    You guys forget, CW are not the only ones with a knock back in this game.

    Back on point, they should give us more control abilities than knock backs as a CW.
    I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.

    -Kymos
  • aetherchargeaethercharge Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 359 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    spacejew wrote: »
    I've noticed that Mages that use their knockbacks make instances take almost twice to three times as long as they normally do. They also create more aggro for the Cleric, and render Great Weapon Fighters useless, all the while assuring the team that if they go down they'll have too many add's to effectively burn anymore.

    Now, it's true that technically most of the mobs get knocked back constantly and if they wipe after a boss fight then it's all gravy. HOWEVER, if you have a Great Weapon Fighter in your group and you see their health at %50 please do not run right up next to them and pop your biggest baddest knockback. A nanosecond later you would see an unstoppable giant with slam going to get all that nasty aggro and burn down the add's. Arguably what I'm supposed to be doing.

    Again, I don't have an inherent issue with knockback but when your alternative gathers all the bad guys up into a neat little AoE burning pile why do you immediately follow up with an AoE knockback spreading them all over creation? Seriously, I'm curious.

    Had two dungeons in a row with a mage that took aggro on themselves, and kited everything around for several minutes even outside of boss fights. None of the DPS could help them out, so we just left him behind to kite the dungeon to his hearts content while we went and killed the bosses. Just to note, these were two different mages. The really irritating thing is they pulled this while everyone was at full health. There was no reason to throw out so many knockbacks.

    TL;DR

    Mages, use your 'gather them up' skills instead of your 'throw them everywhere' skills unless the party is seriously about to wipe. If you do not have a GWF, I understand since you don't have an add tank but I'm very confused why this gets pulled when I'm in team. Guessing there are a lot of terribad GWF or something?

    In general circumstances CWs should not have knockbacks equipped. However, There are several spots (especially in T2s) in which knocking mobs off ledges is highly desirable.
  • terradraconisterradraconis Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    If you don't have a tank - very useful. If you have one or more tanks in the group - Rage inducing. And that is said as a CW.

    Basically knockback is another tool in the CW's control powers. The advantage is that it can knock an opponent off of a foe, the problem is you never want to be doing that to a tank unless the tank is going down and the tank shouldn't be going down.

    If the CW is watching for adds and keeping them off of the cleric then it can be useful so long as the tank hasn't also targeted that foe. So in general knockback powers are not good for team play but are great for solo and small group play if you don't have a tank.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • selonwselonw Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 258
    edited May 2013
    Its just as bad for a TR getting in position for combat advantage or using duelist flurry, then all enemies goes flying and your swinging in the air. And people with that **** dire wolf....
  • starkaosstarkaos Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Depends on the team makeup. Have any melee class teammates, then it is a very bad idea to do. Unfortunately 60% of the classes are melee.
  • dskiperdskiper Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    When there are two CWs who time their control powers so that life is that much easier, I'm happy. When there is one CW who does his job as a controller and then their is the "OMG I WILL HAS ZO MUCH DPS!" kind of CW who messes the other ones control rotation, that is a total train wreck.

    It may have less impact on the lower leveled dungeons, but you don't survive the higher tiered ones with that attitude.

    And the knock backs aren't the problem, it's the CW who uses them when they are not needed.
  • kidbskidbs Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 294
    edited May 2013
    I'm guessing a lot of you haven't done spellplague elite yet. You'll absolutely need a CW to use his knockbacks on the final boss. There are several other situations such as this where it is good as well. Granted I get what most of you are saying, random knocking for "deeps" is just stupid. I agree that CWs should be gathering groups rather than splitting them, but just wanted to point out that there are situations where knocks are needed.

    I'll also point out that I've found just as many clerics are guilty of using knocks for absolutely no reason. I've had clerics knock plenty of groups that I've gathered up to stun with Steal Time only to miss all of them.
  • nyysjannyysjan Member Posts: 32
    edited May 2013
    I play a CW, and I get annoyed by the knockbacks.
    I'm built on aoe, and when i got them all for steal time and Conduit of Ice, someone comes and knocks them all out of aoe range just before cast goes of.
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