you keep assuming this...but you are pretty much 100% wrong.
Yeah, that's kind of my point...
why write a whole paragraph to say "I agree."? I'm pretty sure if I agreed with your original post, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
This conversation? No, but we'll never know that will we. You made the choice to half *** your involvement.
would you have been more happy if I had simply repeated word-for-word the posts that I agreed with?
No, that would have been the same thing.
But it it is really telling that, to you, the sole alternative to simply quoting someone is to just directly copy them. Maybe formulating an argument for yourself?
default response to anyone who doesn't readily wholeheartedly agree 100% with everything you say: " You are a fanboy stop trolling, blahblahblah".
Default response to defensive players who immediately create a false argument to protest, followed by accusations of having my feelings hurt is to call a spade a spade.
again, if I had say "what this guy said" in response to your own post, this conversation wouldn't be happening.
No, it wouldn't.
and again, you make assumptions as to my feelings on the game, when you basically know nothing. typical arrogance from a pseudo "I'm more intelligent than you" poster.
wow its almost as if you're beginning to see the irony I'm pointing out to you.
yeah, no. I think I'll post when and where I feel like it. and you can be mad about it.
Yeah you totally don't sound like a fanboy hunting down a thread to troll into the ground.
What you want from this game, it's not going to happen. It's not technically possible in a MMORPG. simple as that.
You don't know what I want, you've made it perfectly clear from post one. Are you saying all of this to convince me? Or is it self affirmation?
whether or not the game changes, I'm going to post criticism, and feedback, and suggestions. Sorry.
If you see that as a "mama-bearesque" defense of the game, then that is what you choose to see.
No I saw what you chose to show me.
I wanna go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird's all I got, oh, and my sweet style. -Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd
I guess Dungeons in general are, from a D&D perspective. I get that certain sacrifices need to be made to transfer a pen and paper game to mmo. But the dungeon design didn't need to be this banal.
Don't get me wrong. I LOVE this game. Its some of the most fun I've had playing an mmorpg. But dungeons have a lot of unused potential.
Out of combat utility is almost non-existent.
Rogues have no reason to disarm traps. The party runs right through, and that's kind of pathetic. Where is the D&D feel? Where is the send the rogue/warrior in to clean a trap or unlock/bash a chest/door. Where is detect secret doors?
Where is the exploration? The hidden danger, and non combat objectives? Yes its an mmorpg, but that doesn't mean a game based on elaborate dungeons more complex than most cities, has to create a mob/loot tunnel from point A to point B as the SOLE form of dungeon.
Where are the environmental options? Boss fights should incorporate classes, and their unique abilities more than simply DPS/Healing/Distraction. Where is having the warrior climb up to the rafters, and leap down on the minotaur driving a sword through its head to finish it off? Rogues swinging from ropes across the fight area swashbuckler style, or Clerics putting up fields of divine light to fend off hordes of undead, while fighters bash a door down. Or a Wizard having to put a ritual together to appease a bunch of haunted books in a library, while everyone else fends them off, and everyone participates when its ready?
Boss fights should incorporate classes and their unique abilities more than simply DPS/Healing/Distraction. This is all possible. All it takes is creativity, effort, and the will to create something beyond the status quo.
How about a fight on some giant chandeliers where the rogue needs to cut the ropes and everyone needs to leap to the next one as they swing back and forth? Or a Wizard levitating rocks to form a bridge, or solving the riddles of creepy monster weirdos. SOMETHING! Anything more than slogging your way through trash, get to caster with fighter stats, and periodically a dump truck full of adds pulls up.
Its kind of ridiculous that players are already creating Foundry missions, that provide better story, and immersion than most of the official game combined.
i've never played D & D actually but if this game was like the one you described I would rather play it instead of the NW which is right now
absolutely. SWTOR is an example of how Story-driven can work in a MMO. It is a shame that they forgot about the rest of the MMO.
however, I don't see the complexity of encounters that he has suggested, showing up in a MMO any time soon.
Well combat wise no, the whole leaping from ledges at minautors and swinging from ropes does seem a bit of a stretch. But I can totally see dungeons where you need a special skill (Arcana/Dungeoneering....) to open and advance to certain areas, I played some foundry quest where you could progress in the story by several different ways depending on if you had Thievery to lockpick a door, use arcana to find some helpfull clues and whatnot.... Its definitely doable.
Also the fact that everyone can spot traps and not only rogues is a bit annoying to me...just seems wrong. I don't see the harm in making traps only viewable to rogues, the way it is now their ability to disarm traps is completely useless
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krnefraiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
On the traps mentioned by the OP, I was a bit disappointed in them (maybe the traps get worse at end game though? I'm not there yet...). I thought it would be nice to be a TR and disable traps, but realized a couple things - one, there is no need to disarm them, and two, you can use the traps to kill enemies, so you don't want to disable a lot of them anyway, lol.
angry much? sorry, but i didn't come into this thread to kiss your *** and slurp all over your ideas.
what you want, this game isn't capable of. simple as that.
if saying that makes me a "defensive fanboy" then thats fine, but I'm pretty sure you don't know what a "defensive fanboy" actually is.
This is what I'm angry at you for. Not disagreeing. Simply for being a HAMSTER about it. Your attitude in disagreeing. Your consistent mangling of my intent.
Constantly repeating that I'll never get what I want. All of which are intended to make me angry and you know it.
Notice I have no issue with anyone else.
I'm done going off topic for you.
I wanna go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird's all I got, oh, and my sweet style. -Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd
Well combat wise no, the whole leaping from ledges at minautors and swinging from ropes does seem a bit of a stretch. But I can totally see dungeons where you need a special skill (Arcana/Dungeoneering....) to open and advance to certain areas, I played some foundry quest where you could progress in the story by several different ways depending on if you had Thievery to lockpick a door, use arcana to find some helpfull clues and whatnot.... Its definitely doable.
there are a couple of Dungeoneering nodes like that in the solo dungeons. but they mostly lead to treasure chests. maybe they translate that to the big dungeons as well.
Also the fact that everyone can spot traps and not only rogues is a bit annoying to me...just seems wrong. I don't see the harm in making traps only viewable to rogues, the way it is now their ability to disarm traps is completely useless
agreed. trap-spotting should be a rogue specialty. and disarming the traps should mean something. currently it does not, because the traps barely do enough damage to be annoying. we need some trap doors in the floor and such. traps that are actually alarms that spawn a room full of enemies.
This is what I'm angry at you for. Not disagreeing. Simply for being a HAMSTER about it. Your attitude in disagreeing. Your consistent mangling of my intent.
Constantly repeating that I'll never get what I want. All of which are intended to make me angry and you know it.
Notice I have no issue with anyone else.
I'm done going off topic for you.
well you continue to have your wholly invented "issue" with me, or whatever. I've moved on from it. me an bluereverend are having a nice, civil discussion on the topic.
also, lastly, saying that this game isn't capable of what you are asking is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a defense of the game. it is a shortcoming.
also, keep in mind, that the game has to be accessible for everyone.
meaning that if we add a little complexity, secret tunnels, secret doors, alternate paths, etc. that there would have to be multiple ways to access/unlock these things, to compensate for not having a particular class. for example, having a door that has to be unlocked for a rogue would be great. but then everyone group would HAVE to have a rogue in it, and another class would be purposely left out by the playerbase.
what I would REALLY like to see, in all honesty, is alternate paths through each dungeon. you take one path, and the other path closes. each path would contain different enemies, bosses, loot, chests, nodes, etc.
I can't remember which game did this, but there is one or two.
that would be awesome.
I would also like to see the sparkly "go this way" line automatically disabled for everyone inside a dungeon delve.
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krnefraiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
I think if you are looking for a truer "D&D" experience, NW Nights is about as close as you can get. D&D as a tabletop game is designed around a smallish, specialized party. Hard to replicate that in an MMO.
well you continue to have your wholly invented "issue" with me, or whatever. I've moved on from it. me an bluereverend are having a nice, civil discussion on the topic.
also, lastly, saying that this game isn't capable of what you are asking is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a defense of the game. it is a shortcoming.
Ok you're right. I'll be more civil.
DDO does it. Hell even Guild Wars has basic quest structure, beyond killing group X then moving onto group Y. WoW does it. and the only real difference is lack of an auto attack.
When you deride a person's feedback by proclaiming it an impossibility, without a shred of proof, it comes off more of a defense. But for the sake of keeping this civil I'll take your word for it, and I apologize for being so combative.
I want you to prove what you just claimed. That this game is incapable of anything I said. Or at least explain why things like context based events during boss fights can't be included.
I wanna go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird's all I got, oh, and my sweet style. -Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd
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krnefraiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
Agreed, Jmadfour. Tera actually had some tiny amount of that in dungeons, where you had a few choices, but very limited. It would also give a reason to 'want' to run a dungeon many times, since it wouldn't be the same every run. I also wonder about since dungeons are instanced, maybe one day we could have randomly generated ones, kind of like Diablo. Gives the illusion of change, at any rate.
Agreed, Jmadfour. Tera actually had some tiny amount of that in dungeons, where you had a few choices, but very limited. It would also give a reason to 'want' to run a dungeon many times, since it wouldn't be the same every run. I also wonder about since dungeons are instanced, maybe one day we could have randomly generated ones, kind of like Diablo. Gives the illusion of change, at any rate.
randomly generated dungeons would be a nice touch. not for the main Delves, but as another source of repeatable content?
I think if you are looking for a truer "D&D" experience, NW Nights is about as close as you can get. D&D as a tabletop game is designed around a smallish, specialized party. Hard to replicate that in an MMO.
I've played it, its good. But what I'm looking for isn't a direct pen and paper simulator, I've got access to that if I want it.
Just more creativity in dungeons and making each class play a more substantial role, while making combat more interesting and involved. It doesn't need to be the p&p version with graphics.
In fact, I'd honestly prefer it not be.
I wanna go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird's all I got, oh, and my sweet style. -Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd
your issue is that you expected a Tabletop RPG out of a MMO.
that will never happen.
I think, for a lot of people, they expected something bearing the D&D title to have a bit more depth.
Combat is simplistic, if well-done. Boss fights are, well, incredibly simplistic. The bosses don't use any special tactics, and telegraph their special moves to give you ample time to get out of the way. Their only difficulty is wave after wave (after wave, after wave) of adds. This makes the fight rather tedious, rather than engaging or fun, and many of the bosses have simply ludicrous hp totals (the teleporting rogue boss in the second skirmish (don't remember the name) being a rather blatant example, who has like 500,000 or more hp).
Non-combat abilities are almost non-existent, the "class skills" are just tacked on to give you a few extra clickies here and there to get crafting materials (or occasionally access to a chest). Disarming traps is pointless; there's no bonus for doing so, and the vast majority of traps are a) non-lethal (oh no, I took 1200 damage, I only have 9000hp left!) or b) can simply be avoided, since you can SEE where most of them are.
Dialogue is almost purely "click to start talking, click again to accept quest, click again to get reward when you're done". I think if Cryptic really wants to add some depth to the game, they should take a page or two from DDO's playbook. Add areas with some LETHAL traps that are difficult to avoid without disarming them. Add some more class skills that flesh out each class more fully. Add dialogue here and there so it's not simply "beat up boss, get loot", etc.
In short, I'd compare it to a "summer popcorn flick" -- amusing but somewhat mindless entertainment.
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krnefraiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
Yeah, I get that Aislingi - it would be nice, I had really hoped the TR would be more useful than just another 'dps'. I like my TR (despite their crazy dps...nerf them, I'll still enjoy my TR), but I was initially excited about extra features, like disabling traps I love to find secrets though; searching for anything hidden, hard to find doors, etc.
you people are talking about randomly generated dungeons and branching paths in every dungeon. You are forgetting this is an online game with possibly hunderds of thousands of players logged in at every minute, the logistics are mind boggeling, making it random would be next to impossible, this isn't a single player game on your PC
Guild Wars 2 does alternate paths through dungeons. Why can't NWO? Of all the games to have secret passages/chambers/paths A D&D based game is the most appropriate I think.
How about alternate boss mechanics. Like operating a ballista to down a dragon. Or using mirrors to kill a medusa. Kill a pit fiend, or banish it with a huge ritual.
Puzzles like DDO too. Those really went a long way toward giving me that D&D feel while setting the game apart from every other fantasy game.
I wanna go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird's all I got, oh, and my sweet style. -Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd
Yeah, I get that Aislingi - it would be nice, I had really hoped the TR would be more useful than just another 'dps'. I like my TR (despite their crazy dps...nerf them, I'll still enjoy my TR), but I was initially excited about extra features, like disabling traps I love to find secrets though; searching for anything hidden, hard to find doors, etc.
I was the same way. Finally! I rogue that plays like a rogue! I can't wait to scout ahead and disarm traps so my party can proceed. Only to watch them all brazenly run through the spikes and arrows, with all the apprehension of a child running through a sprinkler.
Don't even get bonus xp for it. Hell so many traps you can simply walk right around.
I wanna go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird's all I got, oh, and my sweet style. -Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd
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krnefraiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
you people are talking about randomly generated dungeons and branching paths in every dungeon. You are forgetting this is an online game with possibly hunderds of thousands of players logged in at every minute, the logistics are mind boggeling, making it random would be next to impossible, this isn't a single player game on your PC
I never said "every dungeon". I didn't even mean 'this game', but something to look for in the future. Randomizing a dungeon is actually pretty simple, for one it's not truly random. It wouldn't be as hard to do as you may be thinking, but I wouldn't expect to see it for some time. What I'm thinking is how games like Torchlight handle randomizing - there isn't much to it, it just gives you something a little different to look at.
For big branching paths and choices in a dungeon, I would only expect that in major or special dungeons, as that can be a lot more work. GW2 and Tera do that to an extent already.
Guild Wars 2 does alternate paths through dungeons. Why can't NWO? Of all the games to have secret passages/chambers/paths A D&D based game is the most appropriate I think.
How about alternate boss mechanics. Like operating a ballista to down a dragon. Or using mirrors to kill a medusa. Kill a pit fiend, or banish it with a huge ritual.
Puzzles like DDO too. Those really went a long way toward giving me that D&D feel while setting the game apart from every other fantasy game.
correct me if im wrong, but isn't GW2 a subscription based game? meaning they get steady income and resources and lots of development time to work on things? sure they get payed in this game too, but its a different case i believe
I think, for a lot of people, they expected something bearing the D&D title to have a bit more depth.
Combat is simplistic, if well-done. Boss fights are, well, incredibly simplistic. The bosses don't use any special tactics, and telegraph their special moves to give you ample time to get out of the way. Their only difficulty is wave after wave (after wave, after wave) of adds. This makes the fight rather tedious, rather than engaging or fun, and many of the bosses have simply ludicrous hp totals (the teleporting rogue boss in the second skirmish (don't remember the name) being a rather blatant example, who has like 500,000 or more hp).
Non-combat abilities are almost non-existent, the "class skills" are just tacked on to give you a few extra clickies here and there to get crafting materials (or occasionally access to a chest). Disarming traps is pointless; there's no bonus for doing so, and the vast majority of traps are a) non-lethal (oh no, I took 1200 damage, I only have 9000hp left!) or b) can simply be avoided, since you can SEE where most of them are.
Dialogue is almost purely "click to start talking, click again to accept quest, click again to get reward when you're done". I think if Cryptic really wants to add some depth to the game, they should take a page or two from DDO's playbook. Add areas with some LETHAL traps that are difficult to avoid without disarming them. Add some more class skills that flesh out each class more fully. Add dialogue here and there so it's not simply "beat up boss, get loot", etc.
In short, I'd compare it to a "summer popcorn flick" -- amusing but somewhat mindless entertainment.
Thank you! I'm not asking for the game to be torn down and turned into some perfect D&D simulator. But there is no excuse for not putting more thought into dungeons to at least make them more exciting. It doesn't need to be completely pen and paper, to feel more like a D&D based game.
I wanna go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird's all I got, oh, and my sweet style. -Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd
correct me if im wrong, but isn't GW2 a subscription based game? meaning they get steady income and resources and lots of development time to work on things? sure they get payed in this game too, but its a different case i believe
True but they programmed all of that stuff, long before they began taking money. It's all about what you do with the budget you're given. and this game's budget comes from PWE, who make hundreds of millions of dollars annually. I mean look at SWTOR. That game had a $200,000,000+ budget and it had HAMSTER for dungeons. It was all spent on sound!
This game is also making a lot of money, judging by all the founders I see, and all the zen shop stuff in the auction house.
I wanna go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird's all I got, oh, and my sweet style. -Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd
Where is the exploration? The hidden danger, and non combat objectives? Yes its an mmorpg, but that doesn't mean a game based on elaborate dungeons more complex than most cities, has to create a mob/loot tunnel from point A to point B as the SOLE form of dungeon.
MMO devs have learned over the years that most players will just ignore all that. I've seen it since vanilla WoW - you make a giant sprawling maze, people moan that it's too annoying to slog through. Or they find the "fastest" route through, ignoring all the optional things. Or they skip that dungeon. (and then the few people who want to see & do those things go on the forum complaining that every pug they join won't help them finish their quest to kill That Boss Down The Side Passage, because it'll take 5 minutes, and they just want their emblems/valor points/astral diamonds.)
Heck, I've yet to see a run of Cloak Tower that's found all the hidden items to open those last chests. And the maze before the final boss? There's several chests in there in side rooms. But you try to go after one, and it ends up being you & one other guy, with the other three standing at the boss trigger waiting.
Where are the environmental options? Boss fights should incorporate classes, and their unique abilities
This can get really risky. One, if the "incorporation of classes" is required (or such an advantage that it might as well be), it can mess up pugs. And for people forming groups, it can lead to certain classes being locked out of a dungeon because no-one wants them there ("we don't want any <class>, you gotta have <class 2> for the final boss")
And even if the devs don't intend this, everyone should know by now that the playerbase will decide on some "truth", or calculate some way that's better by 1.2%, and run with it.
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krnefraiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
correct me if im wrong, but isn't GW2 a subscription based game? meaning they get steady income and resources and lots of development time to work on things? sure they get payed in this game too, but its a different case i believe
GW2 is free to play, same as this game. You buy the game once, and it's free monthly. They have their own store, like the Zen store.
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sarahharaldsenMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
correct me if im wrong, but isn't GW2 a subscription based game? meaning they get steady income and resources and lots of development time to work on things? sure they get payed in this game too, but its a different case i believe
Actually, GW2 is not a subscription based game, but instead a game that you buy once and you play for free forever. They do have a steady income from their cash shop, which provides Dyes, Mounts, Costumes, etc. but thats about it.
As for this thread, I do have to agree with the majority of what is being said.
I do love this game, but having to fight nearly every boss with the same "kill waves of 50 adds at once" is getting kind of old. (Granted, I'm exaggerating, but you get my point)
Cryptic could do so much more than what they have so far, so here's hoping they step it up a bit.
krnefraiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
I'm hoping Neverwinter brings out new kinds of dungeon bosses, one thing I enjoyed in some other MMOs, was when bosses needed certain strategy, such as a healer needs to break some device so the DPS could hurt the boss, things like that. I have to say this game is easy to PUG dungeons though, as the bosses require little real strategy, but it was really satisfying to learn how to take a dungeon perfectly in Tera for example, knowing each person had a part to play outside simple DPS.
As an example of a "fun boss fight" I'll offer up the final boss in the DDO quest Party Crashers.
The party is sent into a gala being held by House Phiarlan (enchanters and illusionists), making their way through "the illusionarium" which is a series of display halls with illusionary monsters and creatures. If you find the proper symbol (always hidden somewhere in the room) you can destroy it and banish the illusions. Once you make it through and into the party itself, you add your contact's name to the guest list (she was specifically not invited, but is trying to do her job and protect the house leader) so she can get in.
While you're in the party, you can discover several disguised tiefling agents who are there setting up the assassination of the lord (you can uncover them with enough spot, true sight, or other means). Through use of various skills (bluff, intimidate, diplomacy, etc) you can lure them away from everyone else and take them out. There's also a group of thugs hiding in the upstairs hallway (and in the bathrooms) waiting to jump down and help the attack.
Whichever ones you don't deal with show up for the final battle with the boss, which is a pretty straight-forward beat-em-up with fighters, casters, and summons. If you DO deal with them, however, the final battle is both creative and incredibly funny.
The evil mastermind shows up, noting that the lord just finished his drink, and laughs (evilly) saying, "Did you enjoy your drink, my lord? It was POISONED!"
Cyan (your contact) says, "Actually, we caught your poisoner. Too bad."
EMM: Ah, well luckily I have a backup plan! Like a group of your own loyal house guards, mind-controlled by my sorcerer and sent to attack you! Haha!
Cyan: Oh, you mean the sorcerer we found in the library and dealt with? Nasty business. So many paper cuts.
EMM: Well, too bad I have a backup to my backup plan! Like a squad of thugs waiting to burst in and take you down!
Cyan: You mean the ones that were upstairs in the bathrooms? We had them ... flushed.
EMM: You...but...all my plans...
Cyan: (bluff) You seem out of sorts. Here, have a drink. (hands him a cup laced with the poison he tried to use)
MMO devs have learned over the years that most players will just ignore all that. I've seen it since vanilla WoW - you make a giant sprawling maze, people moan that it's too annoying to slog through. Or they find the "fastest" route through, ignoring all the optional things. Or they skip that dungeon. (and then the few people who want to see & do those things go on the forum complaining that every pug they join won't help them finish their quest to kill That Boss Down The Side Passage, because it'll take 5 minutes, and they just want their emblems/valor points/astral diamonds.)
Heck, I've yet to see a run of Cloak Tower that's found all the hidden items to open those last chests. And the maze before the final boss? There's several chests in there in side rooms. But you try to go after one, and it ends up being you & one other guy, with the other three standing at the boss trigger waiting.
This can get really risky. One, if the "incorporation of classes" is required (or such an advantage that it might as well be), it can mess up pugs. And for people forming groups, it can lead to certain classes being locked out of a dungeon because no-one wants them there ("we don't want any <class>, you gotta have <class 2> for the final boss")
And even if the devs don't intend this, everyone should know by now that the playerbase will decide on some "truth", or calculate some way that's better by 1.2%, and run with it.
I thought of that, that's why I would make an applicable option for each class, or make them entirely optional. At least to add some dramatic value to the fights.
I wanna go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird's all I got, oh, and my sweet style. -Maurice Moss, The IT Crowd
Comments
Yeah, that's kind of my point...
This conversation? No, but we'll never know that will we. You made the choice to half *** your involvement.
No, that would have been the same thing.
But it it is really telling that, to you, the sole alternative to simply quoting someone is to just directly copy them. Maybe formulating an argument for yourself?
Default response to defensive players who immediately create a false argument to protest, followed by accusations of having my feelings hurt is to call a spade a spade.
No, it wouldn't.
wow its almost as if you're beginning to see the irony I'm pointing out to you.
Yeah you totally don't sound like a fanboy hunting down a thread to troll into the ground.
You don't know what I want, you've made it perfectly clear from post one. Are you saying all of this to convince me? Or is it self affirmation?
whether or not the game changes, I'm going to post criticism, and feedback, and suggestions. Sorry.
No I saw what you chose to show me.
i've never played D & D actually but if this game was like the one you described I would rather play it instead of the NW which is right now
Well combat wise no, the whole leaping from ledges at minautors and swinging from ropes does seem a bit of a stretch. But I can totally see dungeons where you need a special skill (Arcana/Dungeoneering....) to open and advance to certain areas, I played some foundry quest where you could progress in the story by several different ways depending on if you had Thievery to lockpick a door, use arcana to find some helpfull clues and whatnot.... Its definitely doable.
Also the fact that everyone can spot traps and not only rogues is a bit annoying to me...just seems wrong. I don't see the harm in making traps only viewable to rogues, the way it is now their ability to disarm traps is completely useless
This is what I'm angry at you for. Not disagreeing. Simply for being a HAMSTER about it. Your attitude in disagreeing. Your consistent mangling of my intent.
Constantly repeating that I'll never get what I want. All of which are intended to make me angry and you know it.
Notice I have no issue with anyone else.
I'm done going off topic for you.
there are a couple of Dungeoneering nodes like that in the solo dungeons. but they mostly lead to treasure chests. maybe they translate that to the big dungeons as well.
agreed. trap-spotting should be a rogue specialty. and disarming the traps should mean something. currently it does not, because the traps barely do enough damage to be annoying. we need some trap doors in the floor and such. traps that are actually alarms that spawn a room full of enemies.
well you continue to have your wholly invented "issue" with me, or whatever. I've moved on from it. me an bluereverend are having a nice, civil discussion on the topic.
also, lastly, saying that this game isn't capable of what you are asking is NOT, I repeat, NOT, a defense of the game. it is a shortcoming.
Thank you I appreciate it.
meaning that if we add a little complexity, secret tunnels, secret doors, alternate paths, etc. that there would have to be multiple ways to access/unlock these things, to compensate for not having a particular class. for example, having a door that has to be unlocked for a rogue would be great. but then everyone group would HAVE to have a rogue in it, and another class would be purposely left out by the playerbase.
what I would REALLY like to see, in all honesty, is alternate paths through each dungeon. you take one path, and the other path closes. each path would contain different enemies, bosses, loot, chests, nodes, etc.
I can't remember which game did this, but there is one or two.
that would be awesome.
I would also like to see the sparkly "go this way" line automatically disabled for everyone inside a dungeon delve.
Ok you're right. I'll be more civil.
DDO does it. Hell even Guild Wars has basic quest structure, beyond killing group X then moving onto group Y. WoW does it. and the only real difference is lack of an auto attack.
When you deride a person's feedback by proclaiming it an impossibility, without a shred of proof, it comes off more of a defense. But for the sake of keeping this civil I'll take your word for it, and I apologize for being so combative.
I want you to prove what you just claimed. That this game is incapable of anything I said. Or at least explain why things like context based events during boss fights can't be included.
randomly generated dungeons would be a nice touch. not for the main Delves, but as another source of repeatable content?
I've played it, its good. But what I'm looking for isn't a direct pen and paper simulator, I've got access to that if I want it.
Just more creativity in dungeons and making each class play a more substantial role, while making combat more interesting and involved. It doesn't need to be the p&p version with graphics.
In fact, I'd honestly prefer it not be.
I think, for a lot of people, they expected something bearing the D&D title to have a bit more depth.
Combat is simplistic, if well-done. Boss fights are, well, incredibly simplistic. The bosses don't use any special tactics, and telegraph their special moves to give you ample time to get out of the way. Their only difficulty is wave after wave (after wave, after wave) of adds. This makes the fight rather tedious, rather than engaging or fun, and many of the bosses have simply ludicrous hp totals (the teleporting rogue boss in the second skirmish (don't remember the name) being a rather blatant example, who has like 500,000 or more hp).
Non-combat abilities are almost non-existent, the "class skills" are just tacked on to give you a few extra clickies here and there to get crafting materials (or occasionally access to a chest). Disarming traps is pointless; there's no bonus for doing so, and the vast majority of traps are a) non-lethal (oh no, I took 1200 damage, I only have 9000hp left!) or b) can simply be avoided, since you can SEE where most of them are.
Dialogue is almost purely "click to start talking, click again to accept quest, click again to get reward when you're done". I think if Cryptic really wants to add some depth to the game, they should take a page or two from DDO's playbook. Add areas with some LETHAL traps that are difficult to avoid without disarming them. Add some more class skills that flesh out each class more fully. Add dialogue here and there so it's not simply "beat up boss, get loot", etc.
In short, I'd compare it to a "summer popcorn flick" -- amusing but somewhat mindless entertainment.
How about alternate boss mechanics. Like operating a ballista to down a dragon. Or using mirrors to kill a medusa. Kill a pit fiend, or banish it with a huge ritual.
Puzzles like DDO too. Those really went a long way toward giving me that D&D feel while setting the game apart from every other fantasy game.
I was the same way. Finally! I rogue that plays like a rogue! I can't wait to scout ahead and disarm traps so my party can proceed. Only to watch them all brazenly run through the spikes and arrows, with all the apprehension of a child running through a sprinkler.
Don't even get bonus xp for it. Hell so many traps you can simply walk right around.
I never said "every dungeon". I didn't even mean 'this game', but something to look for in the future. Randomizing a dungeon is actually pretty simple, for one it's not truly random. It wouldn't be as hard to do as you may be thinking, but I wouldn't expect to see it for some time. What I'm thinking is how games like Torchlight handle randomizing - there isn't much to it, it just gives you something a little different to look at.
For big branching paths and choices in a dungeon, I would only expect that in major or special dungeons, as that can be a lot more work. GW2 and Tera do that to an extent already.
correct me if im wrong, but isn't GW2 a subscription based game? meaning they get steady income and resources and lots of development time to work on things? sure they get payed in this game too, but its a different case i believe
Thank you! I'm not asking for the game to be torn down and turned into some perfect D&D simulator. But there is no excuse for not putting more thought into dungeons to at least make them more exciting. It doesn't need to be completely pen and paper, to feel more like a D&D based game.
True but they programmed all of that stuff, long before they began taking money. It's all about what you do with the budget you're given. and this game's budget comes from PWE, who make hundreds of millions of dollars annually. I mean look at SWTOR. That game had a $200,000,000+ budget and it had HAMSTER for dungeons. It was all spent on sound!
This game is also making a lot of money, judging by all the founders I see, and all the zen shop stuff in the auction house.
MMO devs have learned over the years that most players will just ignore all that. I've seen it since vanilla WoW - you make a giant sprawling maze, people moan that it's too annoying to slog through. Or they find the "fastest" route through, ignoring all the optional things. Or they skip that dungeon. (and then the few people who want to see & do those things go on the forum complaining that every pug they join won't help them finish their quest to kill That Boss Down The Side Passage, because it'll take 5 minutes, and they just want their emblems/valor points/astral diamonds.)
Heck, I've yet to see a run of Cloak Tower that's found all the hidden items to open those last chests. And the maze before the final boss? There's several chests in there in side rooms. But you try to go after one, and it ends up being you & one other guy, with the other three standing at the boss trigger waiting.
This can get really risky. One, if the "incorporation of classes" is required (or such an advantage that it might as well be), it can mess up pugs. And for people forming groups, it can lead to certain classes being locked out of a dungeon because no-one wants them there ("we don't want any <class>, you gotta have <class 2> for the final boss")
And even if the devs don't intend this, everyone should know by now that the playerbase will decide on some "truth", or calculate some way that's better by 1.2%, and run with it.
GW2 is free to play, same as this game. You buy the game once, and it's free monthly. They have their own store, like the Zen store.
Actually, GW2 is not a subscription based game, but instead a game that you buy once and you play for free forever. They do have a steady income from their cash shop, which provides Dyes, Mounts, Costumes, etc. but thats about it.
As for this thread, I do have to agree with the majority of what is being said.
I do love this game, but having to fight nearly every boss with the same "kill waves of 50 adds at once" is getting kind of old. (Granted, I'm exaggerating, but you get my point)
Cryptic could do so much more than what they have so far, so here's hoping they step it up a bit.
The party is sent into a gala being held by House Phiarlan (enchanters and illusionists), making their way through "the illusionarium" which is a series of display halls with illusionary monsters and creatures. If you find the proper symbol (always hidden somewhere in the room) you can destroy it and banish the illusions. Once you make it through and into the party itself, you add your contact's name to the guest list (she was specifically not invited, but is trying to do her job and protect the house leader) so she can get in.
While you're in the party, you can discover several disguised tiefling agents who are there setting up the assassination of the lord (you can uncover them with enough spot, true sight, or other means). Through use of various skills (bluff, intimidate, diplomacy, etc) you can lure them away from everyone else and take them out. There's also a group of thugs hiding in the upstairs hallway (and in the bathrooms) waiting to jump down and help the attack.
Whichever ones you don't deal with show up for the final battle with the boss, which is a pretty straight-forward beat-em-up with fighters, casters, and summons. If you DO deal with them, however, the final battle is both creative and incredibly funny.
The evil mastermind shows up, noting that the lord just finished his drink, and laughs (evilly) saying, "Did you enjoy your drink, my lord? It was POISONED!"
Cyan (your contact) says, "Actually, we caught your poisoner. Too bad."
EMM: Ah, well luckily I have a backup plan! Like a group of your own loyal house guards, mind-controlled by my sorcerer and sent to attack you! Haha!
Cyan: Oh, you mean the sorcerer we found in the library and dealt with? Nasty business. So many paper cuts.
EMM: Well, too bad I have a backup to my backup plan! Like a squad of thugs waiting to burst in and take you down!
Cyan: You mean the ones that were upstairs in the bathrooms? We had them ... flushed.
EMM: You...but...all my plans...
Cyan: (bluff) You seem out of sorts. Here, have a drink. (hands him a cup laced with the poison he tried to use)
EMM: (drinks it) ...oh bother. *dies*
Best "boss fight" ever, imo.
I thought of that, that's why I would make an applicable option for each class, or make them entirely optional. At least to add some dramatic value to the fights.