i give people some tips how to make zen so people cant say in p2w when this game can you money for the cash shop if you know how to do it right you make enough astrail to sale if you keep play with 3 character per day.
the Exchange Balance is your account balance it not base 1 character you can transfer all your AD to that trade between your characters
what is sounds like to me you said just do dailies with 3 characters = full time job? I want more than that, dont get me wrong but after making through a broken queue/loot on one toon i'm not really dying to do it on another. and I dont get that much under level cap. I bounce days in-between my toons.
You know the largest single contributing factor to MoP's failure for wow? The daily quest grind. and being FORCED to do it on all of your characters.
60cw 51tr 16dc 5gf
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You're right. If you do not have to pay to win though, it is pretty obviously not pay to win. In this game, you can be the top player on a server without paying any money. Pay to get there far faster and easier, yes, but the glass ceiling of this game is *entirely* reachable without paying money.
Or there are simply different grades of pay-to-win.
So, curious... What power can I pay for that I can't get without paying?
Well, the power of convenience and early access, mostly. (in the sense of items that you CANNOT get without paying, we have the founder's packs.)
Now, if we're talking about power that you can feasibly get (aka in a reasonable time frame), we also have R8+ runes.
If we also include frivolous waste of cash, we also have the power of convenience and easy mode from unlimited ress scrolls.
No, the game is still not Pay to Win. Doing something disallowed by the game, i.e. cheating at it, may mean that someone is paying to win at it, but that does not mean that the game itself is Pay to Win.
WoW is not a Pay to Win game. Paying cash for in-game power is not a part of its game mechanics.
Paying for power is an integral part of Neverwinter's game mechanics, and a clear driving force behind much of its design.
As I said, if you define it as the existence of being able to pay cash in order to win - they all are (against the TOS or not is irrelevant, the existence of it makes it true).
That, however, is not the definition of Pay to Win. This game is not Pay to Win because you can get everything without paying any money at all.
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calaminthaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well, the power of convenience and early access, mostly. (in the sense of items that you CANNOT get without paying, we have the founder's packs.)
Now, if we're talking about power that you can feasibly get (aka in a reasonable time frame), we also have R8+ runes.
If we also include frivolous waste of cash, we also have the power of convenience and easy mode from unlimited ress scrolls.
Ok, Founder's Pack. if that is "pay to win," then you've got me. The Founder's Pack is the big exception in this game but luckily, it's gone very soon.
Reasonable time frame... This is the MMO genre. A hallmark of this genre is people playing for *years* and doing so in an effort to acquire stuff that will take months of effort to acquire. If you're looking for no huge time sinks, play something else. This genre is marked with games, many of which were not pay to win, that had time sinks that *far* outstripped those associated with playing this game without paying. Your "feasible" is ignoring this genre's history of massive time sinks.
Convenience is the word you used that fits. Time saving. That - outside of the Founder's Pack - is all that cash gets you in this game. All necessary to "win," that is. Unless you are all talking about the Founder's Pack when you say "pay to win" you really don't have a leg to stand on with this "pay to win" thing. I get that you see people getting geared to the max with a fraction of your effort, but... That's not them paying to win. That's them paying to get to the top in a fraction of the time that it will take you. You CAN get there, and in a time frame that any old EQ player will scoff at and say "That's it?"
If you can buy in game currency with real life cash, and you can buy anything in the game with in game currency, then you can buy anything in the game with cash. That makes it pay to win. Arguing that you can also acquire things by earning them in the game is irrelevant. It's not pay to win because you MUST pay to win, it is pay to win because you CAN pay to win. The issue is that accomplishments earned are less meaningful when they can be purchased. Pride in accomplishment is a natural human reaction and it is diminished by the inability to display your accomplishments. In this very real sense, what others do DOES affect my game enjoyment.
Of course, if you don't take pride in your personal accomplishments, or if you see the desire for the display of these accomplishments as nothing more than worthless ego gratification, then you will not agree. And to you few in that camp, my condolences.
That said, the game is nevertheless fun in its own way, even if severely limited by this disappointment, because pride of accomplishment does not always need to be displayed.
"Men do not stop playing because they grow old. They grow old because they stop playing." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
What people here are missing I think is that however you define it 'F2P' 'P2W' or 'pink polka dotted turtles' ... the cost/value ratio of investing in this game is TOTALLY out of whack.... I mean for crying out loud, 2 PVP maps, a few high level dungeons, and Gear that looks EXACTLY the same, companions that don't work.....?!?! The best thing this game could be would be pay 2 win, because if it was, and there was actually enough content to 'win' at, it might be pretty cool to do so. but I highly doubt anyone who shells out money under current prices is 'winning' anything except a little less weight in their bank account. So lets not get stuck on semantics, and just concentrate of the real issue which is a cost/product value disparity.
sure. you can make $10 in an hr if you go get job...
I make substantially more than that, but if I did the idea of working an hour for what that buys in this game is galling.... I can have more fun buying a jewish coworker non-kosher meat for that price....
The unreasonable amount of time it would take to farm everything that can be paid for completely nullifies the argument that it can be had free in game somehow making it not p2w. Continual argumentation of the semantics of the definition does not change this. English slang has never meant the sum of all the words in the term, which is why all this talk about how not being able to win somehow makes it not pay to win hilarious. If people accepted it for what it is and called a spade a spade, we could actually have an intelligent discussion on the topic, rather than 60 pages of rules lawyering of how the definition doesnt apply due to some irrelevant technicality.
Ok, Founder's Pack. if that is "pay to win," then you've got me. The Founder's Pack is the big exception in this game but luckily, it's gone very soon.
Reasonable time frame... This is the MMO genre. A hallmark of this genre is people playing for *years* and doing so in an effort to acquire stuff that will take months of effort to acquire. If you're looking for no huge time sinks, play something else. This genre is marked with games, many of which were not pay to win, that had time sinks that *far* outstripped those associated with playing this game without paying. Your "feasible" is ignoring this genre's history of massive time sinks.
Convenience is the word you used that fits. Time saving. That - outside of the Founder's Pack - is all that cash gets you in this game. All necessary to "win," that is. Unless you are all talking about the Founder's Pack when you say "pay to win" you really don't have a leg to stand on with this "pay to win" thing. I get that you see people getting geared to the max with a fraction of your effort, but... That's not them paying to win. That's them paying to get to the top in a fraction of the time that it will take you. You CAN get there, and in a time frame that any old EQ player will scoff at and say "That's it?"
Except that there are very few MMOs which have such tasks ranging in a factor of years, and for good reason: People like instant gratification. Even if there's such a task, there are usually interim checkpoints which you can enjoy part of your fruit of labor. The very mechanic of how fusion works prevents one from enjoying their fuses until they've reached the final piece (you can use the gems while you're busy farming more gems to be able to fuse it in, but then, the cost of removing the gem makes it extremely unworthwhile) And of course, with such long goalpoints... what MMO has less than one content update a year? Content which would extremely likely push the goalpoint even further?
Except that there are very few MMOs which have such tasks ranging in a factor of years, and for good reason: People like instant gratification. Even if there's such a task, there are usually interim checkpoints which you can enjoy part of your fruit of labor. The very mechanic of how fusion works prevents one from enjoying their fuses until they've reached the final piece (you can use the gems while you're busy farming more gems to be able to fuse it in, but then, the cost of removing the gem makes it extremely unworthwhile) And of course, with such long goalpoints... what MMO has less than one content update a year? Content which would extremely likely push the goalpoint even further?
You are not allowed to talk in an intelligent manner and make sense. Can I just call you a whiner that wants everything for free, and that will be the core repeating theme of my argument? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX_1B0w7Hzc
47% percent of the people that play this game are whiners.
I make substantially more than that, but if I did the idea of working an hour for what that buys in this game is galling.... I can have more fun buying a jewish coworker non-kosher meat for that price....
... Reposted because I made myself laugh :-)
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So, curious... What power can I pay for that I can't get without paying?
I didn't say that there is any. Whether there is or isn't is entirely irrelevant to whether it's pay-to-win or not.
The simple fact paying for power is part of the game's mechanics makes it pay-to-win.
This is all a matter of definition. The "pay-to-win means you're required to pay to win" definition is a bizarre contortion of language, and one that basically never applies. To me, and I believe on the basis of the plain English meaning of the words, "pay-to-win" simply means that you can pay to win at the game.
As I said, if you define it as the existence of being able to pay cash in order to win - they all are (against the TOS or not is irrelevant, the existence of it makes it true).
I'm talking about the game itself. It's mechanics. What you can do in the context of those mechanics. You cannot pay for power in WoW in that context. Paying for power is a part of Neverwinter's game design. It is not a part of WoW's.
And that's the only context worth discussing on this matter, so I didn't specify it. It's pointless to talk about what is absolutely "possible". Anything is "possible". Someone could hack into PWE's servers. Or break in to where they are hosted and change things.
You are not allowed to talk in an intelligent manner and make sense. Can I just call you a whiner that wants everything for free, and that will be the core repeating theme of my argument? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX_1B0w7Hzc
47% percent of the people that play this game are whiners.
*interlude that does not apply to the original topic at all* ... It is funny that you should allude to politics... The 47% of people taking money from the Federal Government are probably the same kind of people who are willing to pay $6 time and again for respecs, or sit on their computer all day chinese gold farming when they could be productive citizens. ... This kind of lack of appreciation for the value of time and money is probably also the fundamental reason why Americans tolerate such an abusively wasteful government .... My take.
i never met a game which is more p2w than this tbh. im gaming since 2 decades ...
See, comments like this actually make me chuckle more then most. I agree this is a pay to win, yes it is, but if you were to treat like this like a subscription and put ten to twenty dollars a month in to this game like you would almost ANY other MMO out there.. you would be well ahead of the curve and be a winner.
Most MMO's charge for their games folks. This one does TOO!!!! It is just you have the option of NOT paying if you CHOOSE not to. In today's economy that is a nice option. But coming on here and complaining because others choose to do so seems kind of redundant. They want to treat it like a Subscription service almost and pay for it. Sure they get some nice gear but they also earned it too. Earned it through hard work and time at their real life job!
See, comments like this actually make me chuckle more then most. I agree this is a pay to win, yes it is, but if you were to treat like this like a subscription and put ten to twenty dollars a month in to this game like you would almost ANY other MMO out there.. you would be well ahead of the curve and be a winner.
Most MMO's charge for their games folks. This one does TOO!!!! It is just you have the option of NOT paying if you CHOOSE not to. In today's economy that is a nice option. But coming on here and complaining because others choose to do so seems kind of redundant. They want to treat it like a Subscription service almost and pay for it. Sure they get some nice gear but they also earned it too. Earned it through hard work and time at their real life job!
... Your analogy is like witnessing someone charging $200 for a 1/2 eaten big mac, and instead of being perplexed at the guy whose selling a 1/2 eaten big mac, you complain about the people pointing out he's selling a half eaten big mac that's probably not worth $200.
... Your analogy is like witnessing someone charging $200 for a 1/2 eaten big mac, and instead of being perplexed at the guy whose selling a 1/2 eaten big mac, you complain about the people pointing out he's selling a half eaten big mac that's probably not worth $200.
Spacecowboy. The only analogy I am making is that MMO's all charge for their game one way or another. This one chooses to charge for convenience. If you choose not to partake. That is a choice YOU make. That is all it is. Nothing more, nothing less. The big mac analogy you are making above is... umm not sure. Either way not sure the point you are trying to make other then you choose to play for free and that is fine. If you do not like to pay for a game that is your choice as this a free game. If you choose to PAY that is again your choice and you will get convenience because of it if you do so.. the convenience of time.
You may not think that it is fair but it is fair. They (the people that pay for things) do so because they WANT to. If it makes them better then us that choose not to pay.. that is something that they are paying for. We are not. Does it make them better players then us. Not really at all and you know that. But they might have better gear in the sort term in the long term I will have just as good as they have now and will match em later on. Complaining about it gets me no where as PWE is not going to change their financial model just because others feel it is not fair.
So if that is pay to win then I guess they are winners and we are loosers? Not me. I am having a blast.. and I am not paying.
Everyone wants to play a game to be the best at it (in whatever personal regard that is). Whether it be the best role-player or uberzord overlord of the universe, we all want to be master of our domain. Unfortunately for 99% of individuals that play games, there is no legitimate way to invest the amount of time (and yes, it is almost always about time) or skill required to become what we desire. So some people choose to pay in other resources they do have (money, typically) to acquire an advantage over the next person. NONE OF THIS IS NEWS, it is who we are.
However, the problem is that most people do not have the resources of a few others and will always feel left behind and become frustrated at their position in the game. Because of this there is resentment which can build to misplaced hatred of the facilitators (Game Developers).
Long story short, don't worry about what other people are doing and play the game for yourself. If other people's success/position in life are crushing your dreams, there is probably something wrong with you, but you can also attain similar stature if you are willing to make some sacrifices. "Choose wisely."
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deepdiggerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited May 2013
All the mentioned analogies, concerning you can reach everything without spending cash.
I will put an analogy too:
Soccerteam A: Starts with full board of random skilled 14 year olds
Soccertram B: buys the 11 best players availiable and starts right away in a higher league.
The 14 year olds have the same initial skills like the bought ones but less experiance.
Eventually they will be worth the same.
Do you think they can compete right away?
Even if they could, Team A would maybe need many many wins against lesser skilled Teams (grinding)
Team B can go right against the better teams and even further increase theire experiance.
Same applies here, skip the boring grinding part.
Start at a high level way earlier and also amplify the headstart. (Higher Volume of AD to arbitrage in AH, First access to purples,...)
Also following the analogy that everyone can achieve anything with enought time without paying.
-> Everybody is the same concerning gear after a certain timepoint. After this timepoint WINNING the game can only be described by who has more WEALTH. (at Equal initial player skill).
-> you can see where even this statement is leading to.
Math 123, no matter how you look at it the 95? on level one fusion is not even close to that number. Add it up figure it out for your self, no matter how we crunch the numbers they do not match their percentages!!!
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Comments
what is sounds like to me you said just do dailies with 3 characters = full time job? I want more than that, dont get me wrong but after making through a broken queue/loot on one toon i'm not really dying to do it on another. and I dont get that much under level cap. I bounce days in-between my toons.
You know the largest single contributing factor to MoP's failure for wow? The daily quest grind. and being FORCED to do it on all of your characters.
Or there are simply different grades of pay-to-win.
Now, if we're talking about power that you can feasibly get (aka in a reasonable time frame), we also have R8+ runes.
If we also include frivolous waste of cash, we also have the power of convenience and easy mode from unlimited ress scrolls.
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
As I said, if you define it as the existence of being able to pay cash in order to win - they all are (against the TOS or not is irrelevant, the existence of it makes it true).
That, however, is not the definition of Pay to Win. This game is not Pay to Win because you can get everything without paying any money at all.
"The best gear in the game: Buy now for only $100 or wait 2 years to get it for free!"
With your definition that wouldn't be pay-to-win.
Ok, Founder's Pack. if that is "pay to win," then you've got me. The Founder's Pack is the big exception in this game but luckily, it's gone very soon.
Reasonable time frame... This is the MMO genre. A hallmark of this genre is people playing for *years* and doing so in an effort to acquire stuff that will take months of effort to acquire. If you're looking for no huge time sinks, play something else. This genre is marked with games, many of which were not pay to win, that had time sinks that *far* outstripped those associated with playing this game without paying. Your "feasible" is ignoring this genre's history of massive time sinks.
Convenience is the word you used that fits. Time saving. That - outside of the Founder's Pack - is all that cash gets you in this game. All necessary to "win," that is. Unless you are all talking about the Founder's Pack when you say "pay to win" you really don't have a leg to stand on with this "pay to win" thing. I get that you see people getting geared to the max with a fraction of your effort, but... That's not them paying to win. That's them paying to get to the top in a fraction of the time that it will take you. You CAN get there, and in a time frame that any old EQ player will scoff at and say "That's it?"
Of course, if you don't take pride in your personal accomplishments, or if you see the desire for the display of these accomplishments as nothing more than worthless ego gratification, then you will not agree. And to you few in that camp, my condolences.
That said, the game is nevertheless fun in its own way, even if severely limited by this disappointment, because pride of accomplishment does not always need to be displayed.
and dat fail math rofl.
Exploits and arbitrage with the founder pack diamonds, unfortunately can't really do that now.
Except that there are very few MMOs which have such tasks ranging in a factor of years, and for good reason: People like instant gratification. Even if there's such a task, there are usually interim checkpoints which you can enjoy part of your fruit of labor. The very mechanic of how fusion works prevents one from enjoying their fuses until they've reached the final piece (you can use the gems while you're busy farming more gems to be able to fuse it in, but then, the cost of removing the gem makes it extremely unworthwhile) And of course, with such long goalpoints... what MMO has less than one content update a year? Content which would extremely likely push the goalpoint even further?
This is an open beta. Start treating it like one.
You are not allowed to talk in an intelligent manner and make sense. Can I just call you a whiner that wants everything for free, and that will be the core repeating theme of my argument?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX_1B0w7Hzc
47% percent of the people that play this game are whiners.
I didn't say that there is any. Whether there is or isn't is entirely irrelevant to whether it's pay-to-win or not.
The simple fact paying for power is part of the game's mechanics makes it pay-to-win.
This is all a matter of definition. The "pay-to-win means you're required to pay to win" definition is a bizarre contortion of language, and one that basically never applies. To me, and I believe on the basis of the plain English meaning of the words, "pay-to-win" simply means that you can pay to win at the game.
I'm talking about the game itself. It's mechanics. What you can do in the context of those mechanics. You cannot pay for power in WoW in that context. Paying for power is a part of Neverwinter's game design. It is not a part of WoW's.
And that's the only context worth discussing on this matter, so I didn't specify it. It's pointless to talk about what is absolutely "possible". Anything is "possible". Someone could hack into PWE's servers. Or break in to where they are hosted and change things.
*interlude that does not apply to the original topic at all* ... It is funny that you should allude to politics... The 47% of people taking money from the Federal Government are probably the same kind of people who are willing to pay $6 time and again for respecs, or sit on their computer all day chinese gold farming when they could be productive citizens. ... This kind of lack of appreciation for the value of time and money is probably also the fundamental reason why Americans tolerate such an abusively wasteful government .... My take.
See, comments like this actually make me chuckle more then most. I agree this is a pay to win, yes it is, but if you were to treat like this like a subscription and put ten to twenty dollars a month in to this game like you would almost ANY other MMO out there.. you would be well ahead of the curve and be a winner.
Most MMO's charge for their games folks. This one does TOO!!!! It is just you have the option of NOT paying if you CHOOSE not to. In today's economy that is a nice option. But coming on here and complaining because others choose to do so seems kind of redundant. They want to treat it like a Subscription service almost and pay for it. Sure they get some nice gear but they also earned it too. Earned it through hard work and time at their real life job!
... Your analogy is like witnessing someone charging $200 for a 1/2 eaten big mac, and instead of being perplexed at the guy whose selling a 1/2 eaten big mac, you complain about the people pointing out he's selling a half eaten big mac that's probably not worth $200.
You may not think that it is fair but it is fair. They (the people that pay for things) do so because they WANT to. If it makes them better then us that choose not to pay.. that is something that they are paying for. We are not. Does it make them better players then us. Not really at all and you know that. But they might have better gear in the sort term in the long term I will have just as good as they have now and will match em later on. Complaining about it gets me no where as PWE is not going to change their financial model just because others feel it is not fair.
So if that is pay to win then I guess they are winners and we are loosers? Not me. I am having a blast.. and I am not paying.
Everyone wants to play a game to be the best at it (in whatever personal regard that is). Whether it be the best role-player or uberzord overlord of the universe, we all want to be master of our domain. Unfortunately for 99% of individuals that play games, there is no legitimate way to invest the amount of time (and yes, it is almost always about time) or skill required to become what we desire. So some people choose to pay in other resources they do have (money, typically) to acquire an advantage over the next person. NONE OF THIS IS NEWS, it is who we are.
However, the problem is that most people do not have the resources of a few others and will always feel left behind and become frustrated at their position in the game. Because of this there is resentment which can build to misplaced hatred of the facilitators (Game Developers).
Long story short, don't worry about what other people are doing and play the game for yourself. If other people's success/position in life are crushing your dreams, there is probably something wrong with you, but you can also attain similar stature if you are willing to make some sacrifices. "Choose wisely."
I will put an analogy too:
Soccerteam A: Starts with full board of random skilled 14 year olds
Soccertram B: buys the 11 best players availiable and starts right away in a higher league.
The 14 year olds have the same initial skills like the bought ones but less experiance.
Eventually they will be worth the same.
Do you think they can compete right away?
Even if they could, Team A would maybe need many many wins against lesser skilled Teams (grinding)
Team B can go right against the better teams and even further increase theire experiance.
Same applies here, skip the boring grinding part.
Start at a high level way earlier and also amplify the headstart. (Higher Volume of AD to arbitrage in AH, First access to purples,...)
Also following the analogy that everyone can achieve anything with enought time without paying.
-> Everybody is the same concerning gear after a certain timepoint. After this timepoint WINNING the game can only be described by who has more WEALTH. (at Equal initial player skill).
-> you can see where even this statement is leading to.
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