I have run 3/4 of the dungeons the game has with only pugs. The t2 runs can be done. People just need to learn the fights and when everyone knows what they have to do, it becomes a lot easier then the usual zerg,zerg, zerg, you see now for the most part. If you know something about a boss when you join a group, speak up. Some of the groupmates might not know the instance yet and your advice can mean the difference between victory or a wipe. Everyone can be successful in this game with enough practice and knowledge.
you must be lucky not to get the 3 rogue groups then
How often do you actually get two of the same item, compared to the total items that drop? I'm finding it fairly low, so I don't see how that's a fix at all. No matter how often someone rolls Need, there will always be something else to roll Need on. It'll get even worse as Cryptic introduces more classes.
.
I have seen the same t2 guardian mainhand drop 3x in a row back to backing the dungeons. Had the t1 mainhand drop about 4 out of 6 runs yestersay. The point is, if an item has no value to a merchant and can`t be traded all it does is take up space and that is when people will pass on class items and play nice.
Forming a group used to be something that was social, and players formed an unspoken social contract where you leave things I need for me, and in return I leave things you need for you. There was give and take, which was mutually beneficial. You can use that shiny new dagger that dropped? Fine, take it, but I get the chainmail that drops for my cleric, in exchange. This give and take used to be universally understood, and seen as benefitting the entire community.
It's sad to see pure greed is the new norm. This new culture which places greed above all else is rather short-sighted and shallow. These players certainly have no interest in building a community which has the best interests of everyone at its heart. You simply want what's best for yourself. That's unfortunate, and what's more unfortunate is that the majority of players, across all modern MMOs, would appear to be siding with you on this issue.
-Travail.
They are just following the Rules Real life society has taught them...Greed of ones self Over the needs of others
For some reason this game (at least on Mindflayer) is particularly bad about characters needing on everything. At this point I have taken to watching the rolls and if someone who is not the right class needs on an item I need on it too, hope to win it, and give it to the person whose class the item belonged to...
I have seen the same t2 guardian mainhand drop 3x in a row back to backing the dungeons. Had the t1 mainhand drop about 4 out of 6 runs yestersay.
Is that really a common occurrence, or do those cases stand out because they're unusual? And what happens if the guardian already has the item? Or what happens if everyone already has the item somewhere, but it's the only thing that keeps dropping?
The point is, if an item has no value to a merchant and can`t be traded all it does is take up space and that is when people will pass on class items and play nice.
Make it so loot doesn't drop at all, and everyone will be even "nicer." See, this is the thing - once you've piled on all these fixes to a system to force it to work the way you want it to, you're probably better off questioning the underlying system itself. At some point, the patched system will be so far removed from the original that you might as well scrap the whole thing anyway.
Is that really a common occurrence, or do those cases stand out because they're unusual? And what happens if the guardian already has the item? Or what happens if everyone already has the item somewhere, but it's the only thing that keeps dropping?
Make it so loot doesn't drop at all, and everyone will be even "nicer." See, this is the thing - once you've piled on all these fixes to a system to force it to work the way you want it to, you're probably better off questioning the underlying system itself. At some point, the patched system will be so far removed from the original that you might as well scrap the whole thing anyway.
I myself roll greed on items I already have. I know most people would abuse it keep rolling need, so that's why the lore/no trade tag. And if the item rots because nobody needs it, then that's that. The main problem is trying to enforce a real life economy into a video game. It does nothing but bring out the worst in people and encourages them to act like jackholes. But like you pointed out before the devs designed this game as a cash grab so being a courteous and respectful player goes out the window when all people care about is how much they can make.
Loot is funny on the droprates. I see the same cleric bracer drop almost everytime I do a certain dungeon. Then I spoke to a guy who was farming for the t2 mh that I saw 3 of in a row that he hasn`t seen drop yet.
I never said don't let anything drop. You have to make something because the copper you pick up isn`t enough to cover potions, but they don't want gold to be too valueble and too easy to get because then gold farmers will move in start spamming gold sites. Which I haven`t seen a single spam of thank god. The things I mentioned are only a few quick suggestions on things they could do that worked in the past.
Add +15 bonus to rolls on items that your class can use.
Add a stacking penalty to rolls after someone has hit need 3x in the dungeon. So if someone needs a 4th time, he gets -10 to his roll, if someone needs a 5th time in that dungeon, he gets -20 to his roll, etc.
Add +20 roll bonus on the first item you need; if someone hits need on every item, he's going to hit huge penalties while players who greed or pass items they don't really want have a much higher chance of getting the item they save their first need for.
Maybe add a small penalty to rolls on classes rolling need for duplicate items, so that if they've already run this dungeon before and gotten 3 identical versions of this sword, they have a significant penalty on their roll to get a fourth..
0
kagenushiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
2 wrongs doesn't make a right and your reasoning is rubbish. I can only assume you're very new to mmos but at least your post shows exactly why a hotfix is indeed needed
Let me ask you this - if needing an item to sell it is ok then what is the greed button for?
For his part he did say that the Cleric in a group wanted the "Cleric" only item that he ALREADY HAD to sell it themselves. I myself roll need for an item I need and greed for all else. And hope that if an item I need drops that I can get it from the person who won it.
And to the person above who said that "Just because an item drops that your class can use doesn't mean that you have the only right to it." wow, just wow. If I am putting in the effort I sure as hell hope I come away with something that I can use. I know this doesn't a;ways happen but If an item drops for my Guardian and a GWF picks it up wouldn't it help the group for me to have it?
I hate ninja looters, and support the idea of adding countermeasures against them.
I think the best countermeasure is to grey out the need roll button for everyone who can't use the item, and the bind-on-need should do pretty well to fix the problem for things anyone can use.
0
kagenushiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited May 2013
Greying out the Need button for any Class Specific items would be good. For unidentified items would still have to pass through the normal need/greedybastard rolls.
Greying out the Need button for any Class Specific items would be good. For unidentified items would still have to pass through the normal need/greedybastard rolls.
Yeah, which is why I suggest everyone gets their own loot. Tada all problems solved.
0
kagenushiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited May 2013
Haven't played in ages but I know that DDO did this with loot chest. Also WOW's Looking For Raid system gives individual loot per person on boss kills. Loot chest, in bag loot drops per boss would be ok. But individual loot per mob would be more of a nightmare then it would be worth I think.
0
hobieoneMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
i support the grey out need button as other suggested but against the bind on loot idea. as this would adversely effect the games economy on buying as selling things. and lets face it with this games economy being based on AD having bind on loot for wanted items would kill the economy. and possibly the game. because the game revolves around a currency that's hard to come by.
if you guys insist that the devs use bind on loot method. than i propose a different method to solve this issue.
1. eliminate all loot in the game period.
2 eliminate all gold, and AD and remove the auction house.
3. any and all items you need to play the game must be bought by zen only!
this will eliminated gold farmers, and end all this stupid bickering of who gets what on a need roll!
Pug leaders... be aware that you have the option to right click on your picture in the upper left and CHANGE the loot format to say.. oh round robin... if people are acting in a way devoid of an ethos until such time as the devs decide to fix this. It won't fix the problem of how the right loot is distributed, but it will sure annoy the heck out of the needies. I for one am happy to trade an item I have that you may need for one I need also following a pug, provided of course it's not bound on pick up.
You have to make something because the copper you pick up isn`t enough to cover potions, but they don't want gold to be too valueble and too easy to get because then gold farmers will move in start spamming gold sites. Which I haven`t seen a single spam of thank god. The things I mentioned are only a few quick suggestions on things they could do that worked in the past.
Gonna take a different angle - please bear with me. It seems you don't like the current NGP system any more than I do. However, you seem to want to fix it, while I'd rather just scrap it altogether for a different way of distributing loot. I guess my question now is, is there something about NGP that you'd like to preserve? And would it be preserved if Cryptic went with a class-limited system, or the "lore" system you discussed, or any other limitations on Need rolls? Would you feel you'd lost something if we ended up with something like round-robin or independent loot rolls?
Pug leaders... be aware that you have the option to right click on your picture in the upper left and CHANGE the loot format to say.. oh round robin... if people are acting in a way deviod of an ethos until such time as the devs decide to fix this. It won't fix the problem of how the right loot is distributed, but it will sure annoy the heck out of the needies.
I've pointed this out time and time again. It's as if people don't want to hear that. They'd rather keep complaining about a system that they have the power to change. Right now. With a couple of clicks.
As posted elsewhere on a ninja looter discussion, how easy would it be to fix everything and make NEED class only...it really is braindead as it now its totally unacceptable especially in a randomizing dungeon finder. Its kinda like the developers think Ninja's are funny because they allow it with a turned back.
1.Need/Ninja
2.Greed/Sell
3.Pass/Bags Full
0
samuraikingsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If I see someone doing this, and I'm party leader, I just kick them from the group.
The problem with this is, some of the dungeons are not doable with 4 people, or rather, not with 4 PUG group people. Kicking someone for better looting essentially seals the deal that you won't kill the last boss. Right now they haven't implemented a replacement system to fill that 5th slot when someone is kicked, disconnects or leaves. Or I don't know about it, pretty sure there isn't though.
Gonna take a different angle - please bear with me. It seems you don't like the current NGP system any more than I do. However, you seem to want to fix it, while I'd rather just scrap it altogether for a different way of distributing loot. I guess my question now is, is there something about NGP that you'd like to preserve? And would it be preserved if Cryptic went with a class-limited system, or the "lore" system you discussed, or any other limitations on Need rolls? Would you feel you'd lost something if we ended up with something like round-robin or independent loot rolls?
It doesn't seem like anyone here understands you, but you are right. Fixing something so broken and ancient of a concept is a waste of time and won't completely solve the issue. Only instanced loot, a completely different system will actually solve everyone's problem at once. Perhaps the only people who wouldn't like it are ones who get enjoyment from stealing loot, and no one really cares about them.
GW2 did quite a few things right, and instanced loot was certainly one of them, it's just too bad that getting rid of the loot treadmill was a bad idea and made getting loot pretty pointless.
Foundry Name: "Wolframs Last Stand" (@Holythirst)
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
Gonna take a different angle - please bear with me. It seems you don't like the current NGP system any more than I do. However, you seem to want to fix it, while I'd rather just scrap it altogether for a different way of distributing loot. I guess my question now is, is there something about NGP that you'd like to preserve? And would it be preserved if Cryptic went with a class-limited system, or the "lore" system you discussed, or any other limitations on Need rolls? Would you feel you'd lost something if we ended up with something like round-robin or independent loot rolls?
Seems to work just fine for games that have it. Why would it be a nightmare?
The ngp system is probably one of the best systems when implemented correctly. The problem is it never is. But as of right now every single drop has a monetary value to a player, which makes a certain class of people roll need on anything they think they can make a profit off of. Cryptic kicked themselves in the *** by doing this and in turn, turned a lot of players against each other by doing it. It wouldn`t be too hard to fix if they really wanted to make things right. The question is, do they want to?
I very much dislike the round robin method of distributing loot even more then the current system. All that does is try to even how many drops everyone gets, it doesn`t do a thing for class objects, they get thrown into the pool as well and can probably be worse then the current system.
Guild wars2 had a token system for dungeon loot that wasn't too bad. You got your tokens for the loot merchants, the ones that the good gear came from. And then you got the trash vendor drops in the instance you could sell or put up for auction. I was ok with that system. The only problem with that system is you`ll know you need to run an instance a certain number of times for each piece of loot you want which kind of sucks because who knows what price they could put the loot at for tokens. Right now I have a chance to walk into any instance and have a chance for a purple or a blue. With the token system I might have to do 10-20 runs to get enough tokens for 1 item which can be considerably worse.
I`d like to see a gold bonus given at the end of a dungeon or after each boss. Along with the seals the boss drops maybe a gold piece or two would be nice. I think I made about 60 gold on the way from 1-60 and had really nothing to spend it on because the game dropped everything needed to play. Since I normally walk away from dungeon runs with nothing my gold supply is slowly dwindling with the price of kits and potions. I went out and thought I would just grind mobs to make some coin, but when mobs drop 2-10 copper a shot and stacks of potions cost gold, you see the problem.
I was pretty shocked to find out this was not implemented. Other MMOs fixed this years ago, I can't believe Cryptic managed to bring this problem back from the dead. The solution is so obvious, I'm really rather irritated by the fact that they'd release even a beta like this.
Got the tail end of it today, too. CW lead needed everything in wolf den from the gf/gwf helm to the greatsword.
0
thlaylirahMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I think the need/greed/pass buttons just need to go away and loot needs to be completely each person gets their own loot (like the white items dropped are). I mean even if everybody hits need, the rolls are still random and one person may end up with all the stuff anyway (a friend of mine and I play together and greed and trade back and forth and there are days he still wins the majority of rolls and days where I win the majority of rolls). If it's going to be a random roll anyway because everyone is hitting the need button might as well just take the options away entirely and just give the loot our randomly and save everybody the trouble.
0
lexthegreatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think the need/greed/pass buttons just need to go away and loot needs to be completely each person gets their own loot (like the white items dropped are). I mean even if everybody hits need, the rolls are still random and one person may end up with all the stuff anyway (a friend of mine and I play together and greed and trade back and forth and there are days he still wins the majority of rolls and days where I win the majority of rolls). If it's going to be a random roll anyway because everyone is hitting the need button might as well just take the options away entirely and just give the loot our randomly and save everybody the trouble.
That would be a really good solution as well. Whatever Cryptic does, it should be done soon.
0
thlaylirahMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes, it does need to be done soon. I don't even want to attempt dungeons (even though that will be the most fun thing in my opinion) until this is fixed because the current system is stupid. Why would anyone on the dev team even contemplate that people would be fair within this system...especially when it's been shown to be utterly ineffective on countless other MMOs.
1) I've only been peeking in this thread a few times so I don't know if it's been said, but before chewing out a player for "Need"ing an item not for their class, keep in mind that Companions can be equipped with some gear, including class specific gear. So while I have a TR, I might "Need" an Icon item that's DC only because I have the cleric companion.
2) Need/Greed/Pass doesn't bother me too much, but I think it would be VERY nice if they had other looting options like there are in CO.
EDIT: Reason it doesn't bother me is that I get swamped with gear as it is when I'm solo. I really don't see myself as starved for gear and cursing others in my dungeon party for hitting Need all the time.
Well, i just did a Heroic dungeon, being a cleric and keeping everyone alive through the heroic, getting to the last boss, no one dies through the entire 45-50 min run, kill the last boss and a rogue rolls need and wins epic BoP cleric boots which i rolled need on. I just love this mmo. Regardless of being free to play or not, not having a class spacific roll system in play expeically when it comes to epic gear thats Bind on Pickup etc is just really stupid. Dont really care about my spelling mistakes, i just care that a rogue won what he can't even use and will sell for <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all coins. He never even picked up or rolled on Green trash gear that dropped. No one did. This just shows that there are alot of intent to cause problems for people at the end of each heroic dungeon. People say its a game, well did they just run 45-50 min run have something drop they needed and someone else who cant even wear it take it and sell it for a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> 20silver etc.
Support @ OP, I'm one of those people aswell that only rolls need on items that I really seriously need. The PvE aspect could use a lot of work in my opinion - kind of sad that I was forced to bail on it half way through seeing as the queues take FOREVER aswell before managing to scrape a team together, only to see them get wiped @ the last boss due to incompetence. Switched to PvP as I find it more engaging, queue times are 100x faster and of course, no idiots rolling need on items that they don't need at all.
They probably do it because they are poor irl btw, and seeing as the prices are steep on this game they are kinda encouraged to do this by the creators. My guess is that they won't do anything to change it
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
Comments
you must be lucky not to get the 3 rogue groups then
I got one better. I`m a guardian and I got an idris run with a group of 4 rogues!
I have seen the same t2 guardian mainhand drop 3x in a row back to backing the dungeons. Had the t1 mainhand drop about 4 out of 6 runs yestersay. The point is, if an item has no value to a merchant and can`t be traded all it does is take up space and that is when people will pass on class items and play nice.
Everyone should just get their own loot. That will fix all the problems people are having.
Make it so loot doesn't drop at all, and everyone will be even "nicer." See, this is the thing - once you've piled on all these fixes to a system to force it to work the way you want it to, you're probably better off questioning the underlying system itself. At some point, the patched system will be so far removed from the original that you might as well scrap the whole thing anyway.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
I myself roll greed on items I already have. I know most people would abuse it keep rolling need, so that's why the lore/no trade tag. And if the item rots because nobody needs it, then that's that. The main problem is trying to enforce a real life economy into a video game. It does nothing but bring out the worst in people and encourages them to act like jackholes. But like you pointed out before the devs designed this game as a cash grab so being a courteous and respectful player goes out the window when all people care about is how much they can make.
Loot is funny on the droprates. I see the same cleric bracer drop almost everytime I do a certain dungeon. Then I spoke to a guy who was farming for the t2 mh that I saw 3 of in a row that he hasn`t seen drop yet.
I never said don't let anything drop. You have to make something because the copper you pick up isn`t enough to cover potions, but they don't want gold to be too valueble and too easy to get because then gold farmers will move in start spamming gold sites. Which I haven`t seen a single spam of thank god. The things I mentioned are only a few quick suggestions on things they could do that worked in the past.
Add +15 bonus to rolls on items that your class can use.
Add a stacking penalty to rolls after someone has hit need 3x in the dungeon. So if someone needs a 4th time, he gets -10 to his roll, if someone needs a 5th time in that dungeon, he gets -20 to his roll, etc.
Add +20 roll bonus on the first item you need; if someone hits need on every item, he's going to hit huge penalties while players who greed or pass items they don't really want have a much higher chance of getting the item they save their first need for.
Maybe add a small penalty to rolls on classes rolling need for duplicate items, so that if they've already run this dungeon before and gotten 3 identical versions of this sword, they have a significant penalty on their roll to get a fourth..
For his part he did say that the Cleric in a group wanted the "Cleric" only item that he ALREADY HAD to sell it themselves. I myself roll need for an item I need and greed for all else. And hope that if an item I need drops that I can get it from the person who won it.
And to the person above who said that "Just because an item drops that your class can use doesn't mean that you have the only right to it." wow, just wow. If I am putting in the effort I sure as hell hope I come away with something that I can use. I know this doesn't a;ways happen but If an item drops for my Guardian and a GWF picks it up wouldn't it help the group for me to have it?
I think the best countermeasure is to grey out the need roll button for everyone who can't use the item, and the bind-on-need should do pretty well to fix the problem for things anyone can use.
Yeah, which is why I suggest everyone gets their own loot. Tada all problems solved.
if you guys insist that the devs use bind on loot method. than i propose a different method to solve this issue.
1. eliminate all loot in the game period.
2 eliminate all gold, and AD and remove the auction house.
3. any and all items you need to play the game must be bought by zen only!
this will eliminated gold farmers, and end all this stupid bickering of who gets what on a need roll!
Gonna take a different angle - please bear with me. It seems you don't like the current NGP system any more than I do. However, you seem to want to fix it, while I'd rather just scrap it altogether for a different way of distributing loot. I guess my question now is, is there something about NGP that you'd like to preserve? And would it be preserved if Cryptic went with a class-limited system, or the "lore" system you discussed, or any other limitations on Need rolls? Would you feel you'd lost something if we ended up with something like round-robin or independent loot rolls?
Seems to work just fine for games that have it. Why would it be a nightmare?
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
I've pointed this out time and time again. It's as if people don't want to hear that. They'd rather keep complaining about a system that they have the power to change. Right now. With a couple of clicks.
So, now I sit back and eat popcorn.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
1.Need/Ninja
2.Greed/Sell
3.Pass/Bags Full
The problem with this is, some of the dungeons are not doable with 4 people, or rather, not with 4 PUG group people. Kicking someone for better looting essentially seals the deal that you won't kill the last boss. Right now they haven't implemented a replacement system to fill that 5th slot when someone is kicked, disconnects or leaves. Or I don't know about it, pretty sure there isn't though.
It doesn't seem like anyone here understands you, but you are right. Fixing something so broken and ancient of a concept is a waste of time and won't completely solve the issue. Only instanced loot, a completely different system will actually solve everyone's problem at once. Perhaps the only people who wouldn't like it are ones who get enjoyment from stealing loot, and no one really cares about them.
GW2 did quite a few things right, and instanced loot was certainly one of them, it's just too bad that getting rid of the loot treadmill was a bad idea and made getting loot pretty pointless.
Foundry Map: Blacklake District
Type: Campaign, Story, Dungeon - 5 bosses, 1-2 players
Current State: Version 2.2 is up. Full release. Try it with code below.
Short Code: NW-DU2BES2WA
The ngp system is probably one of the best systems when implemented correctly. The problem is it never is. But as of right now every single drop has a monetary value to a player, which makes a certain class of people roll need on anything they think they can make a profit off of. Cryptic kicked themselves in the *** by doing this and in turn, turned a lot of players against each other by doing it. It wouldn`t be too hard to fix if they really wanted to make things right. The question is, do they want to?
I very much dislike the round robin method of distributing loot even more then the current system. All that does is try to even how many drops everyone gets, it doesn`t do a thing for class objects, they get thrown into the pool as well and can probably be worse then the current system.
Guild wars2 had a token system for dungeon loot that wasn't too bad. You got your tokens for the loot merchants, the ones that the good gear came from. And then you got the trash vendor drops in the instance you could sell or put up for auction. I was ok with that system. The only problem with that system is you`ll know you need to run an instance a certain number of times for each piece of loot you want which kind of sucks because who knows what price they could put the loot at for tokens. Right now I have a chance to walk into any instance and have a chance for a purple or a blue. With the token system I might have to do 10-20 runs to get enough tokens for 1 item which can be considerably worse.
I`d like to see a gold bonus given at the end of a dungeon or after each boss. Along with the seals the boss drops maybe a gold piece or two would be nice. I think I made about 60 gold on the way from 1-60 and had really nothing to spend it on because the game dropped everything needed to play. Since I normally walk away from dungeon runs with nothing my gold supply is slowly dwindling with the price of kits and potions. I went out and thought I would just grind mobs to make some coin, but when mobs drop 2-10 copper a shot and stacks of potions cost gold, you see the problem.
Got the tail end of it today, too. CW lead needed everything in wolf den from the gf/gwf helm to the greatsword.
That would be a really good solution as well. Whatever Cryptic does, it should be done soon.
Yes, it does need to be done soon. I don't even want to attempt dungeons (even though that will be the most fun thing in my opinion) until this is fixed because the current system is stupid. Why would anyone on the dev team even contemplate that people would be fair within this system...especially when it's been shown to be utterly ineffective on countless other MMOs.
2) Need/Greed/Pass doesn't bother me too much, but I think it would be VERY nice if they had other looting options like there are in CO.
EDIT: Reason it doesn't bother me is that I get swamped with gear as it is when I'm solo. I really don't see myself as starved for gear and cursing others in my dungeon party for hitting Need all the time.
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They probably do it because they are poor irl btw, and seeing as the prices are steep on this game they are kinda encouraged to do this by the creators. My guess is that they won't do anything to change it