I agree with this, The only way to get the prices down is to not pay them. But people still do, So prices won't change.
I honestly think that a good company would reduce prices even when they are being bought. Too bad this is PWE.
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riderpride81Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Alright, how about I end this ridiculous debate? Here is why the game isn't pay to win. Because there is *NO OFFICIAL DEFINITION* of what pay to win actually is. Everything is purely subjective and opinionated.
Just so you all know, THIS IS ALL HYPOTHETICAL AND NOT IN TERMS OF CURRENT ITEMS IN THE CASH SHOP. People have been using the logic that 'as long as you spend time on it, you can get it' and that this is stupid and utter <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. You would need to spend a year, maybe more just to get where someone could get to in a day by paying or using the cash shop. Hence pay to win.
whatever you just bought? seems pretty obvious man.
buy some zen, change to AD, buy full set of T2 epics - you just paid2win a full suit of epic gear.
Or....now I know its hard to follow me on this, but try to keep up, you can always do a few dungeons and get that same gear for free. Minus about 2-3 hours. Now.... technically, you buying the item for roughly 1000Zen in this fashion only saved you what....an hour or two? And thats just the epic dungeon gear. This doesnt apply to the weaker PvP gear which is going to take longer, but again, its not something you paid for. Its something you got for free with some time investments. Still not pay to win, because I have the same advatages as the other players, and never spent a dime.
You havent paid to win, you just paid to be first. We have the same gear, you just got it before me. That not winning, that impatience and lazyness. And dont try the idea that in a p2w game you buy gear to get an advantage or other players. You dont have an advantage. If you had an advantage, I woudlnt be able to get that same advantage without buying it. Yet I can go without buying it, thus its not an advantage, since we are both equal.
Alright, how about I end this ridiculous debate? Here is why the game isn't pay to win. Because there is *NO OFFICIAL DEFINITION* of what pay to win actually is. Everything is purely subjective and opinionated.
oh well you convinced me. the old "words have no defined meaning therefore talking is pointless" argument. which is always a winner, especially since it relies on being wrong to even be able to communicate the argument to anyone.
Fact of the matter is your time is better spent getting a part time job at McDonalds for minimum wage and work one hour to earn that respec versus actually playing the game for a month or more of in-game time. So in essence, it's more cost effective on your wallet and your time to just give Cryptic your money and play the game significantly less.
Except I have fun playing, I don't have fun working, I really didn't have fun working at a Burger King when I was in college.
lol yes, buying the best gear in the game is not an advantage if you can earn it on your own given enough time. that's another great argument there.
I'll assume this is sarcasm then, since its the only response you have and cant back your argument with reasoning to counter mine.
Now, let me expand, since you took my words out of context.
No, you dont have an advantage, we can get the same gear. You just get yours first. Its not an advantage when I can have what you have. It IS an advantage when you have something I cannot possible get without doing the same thing you did. But you dont have something I cant get without some work and planning. You have an epic perfectly rolled weapon? I can get that. You have the end game boots? I dont have to buy that, I can get it without money.
"it's not an advantage to get the gear first without working for it."
Ok, Chief. another winner of an argument there.
Looks like I dont need to explain further, since your arguments are so fallen and decrepit, you cant use them and have to resort to bad sarcasm. Too bad, I prefer more challenge with my discussions. I guess you cant pay 2 win in the game OR the forums.
Looks like I dont need to explain further, since your arguments are so fallen and decrepit, you cant use them and have to resort to bad sarcasm. Too bad, I prefer more challenge with my discussions. I guess you cant pay 2 win in the game OR the forums.
LOL dude got smoked.
You are however forgetting my lvl 9 enhancements over your measly lvl 6s in pvp.....and/or gear checks.(lets be honest...this is the next step in this mmo) so I clearly would have a advantage over you for a long time..if not the rest of your career here.
Henceforth, pay to win
"You have a wife and kids? If so, what would happen, if we called you in at 1am, everytime something went wrong!
Be respectful, remember, you PLAY the game at your convenience, they WORK at no ones."
LOL dude got smoked.
You are however forgetting my lvl 9 enhancements over your measly lvl 6s in pvp.....and/or gear checks.(lets be honest...this is the next step in this mmo) so I clearly would have a advantage over you for a long time..if not the rest of your career here.
Henceforth, pay to win
Pay To Win Arguments
. . . . . Alright, I see no end to such an argument of "Pay to Win" for there are plenty on both sides, and in the middle, of the coin that feel strongly either way. This is an argument without end and one that brings up far too much inappropriate posting manners into the fray. There are plenty of ways to provide constructive feedback on a system that one does not like, none of which include insulting anyone, direct or indirect.
. . . . . With all the insults insinuated by the usage of "Pay to Win" as an argument, as well as the way these discussions have unfolded in the present and past, "Pay to Win" threads will not be allowed for the time being. Please find a more constructive and non-hostile way to express feedback and opinions one desires change in.
Our best bet is to agree to disagree and let this thread either die, or be locked.
you have been arguing right along with us, please climb off your high horse and drink the same poo water as the rest of us.
"You have a wife and kids? If so, what would happen, if we called you in at 1am, everytime something went wrong!
Be respectful, remember, you PLAY the game at your convenience, they WORK at no ones."
How people can honestly attempt to defend this price scheme and business model is beyond me.
It's so blatantly p2w, anyone who tries to defend that it isn't has either dumped a large amount of money into the game or simply hasn't played enough of it.
As mentioned before, there are f2p games with cash shops that only allow you to buy items that are purely cosmetic (LoL, TF2, PoE). Those three games are also very successful. What it ultimately comes down to is this: If one can obtain an item that serves as "player advantage" through monotonous, weekly grinding, OR spend ANY amount of cash to just buy the item from an in-game shop, it constitutes as p2w. Simple. Call it pay for advantage. Call it pay to compete. Call it whatever you want - the message is the same.
In my opinion, this company is pricing themselves out of a HUGE market. Just take the ridiculously priced 40 dollar mounts as an example. I guarantee you I could find 8 people that would pay 5 dollars for an item faster than anyone could find one person to drop 40.
And what's with the constant "Someone you don't know or care about received this super cool heavy inferno horse" messages in-game? What purpose could it serve other than to try and influence people to spend cash for these items? The scheme is so blatant, again, I can't understand how people try and defend this model.
I think, overall, my favorite comments are "lol then just stop playing, dont complain it doesnt solve anything." I'd love to know where society would be if "no one complained" because "nothing will change." The more people speak out against it, the greater likelihood we can get some sort of feedback from the company. I really don't want to see this game implode.
you have been arguing right along with us, please climb off your high horse and drink the same poo water as the rest of us.
I'm not arguing anymore as we could get banned for disobeying mod rules. If you view the link I posted, the mods actually are no longer allowing pay 2 win arguments of discussions. So you can keep it up and get banned, But I prefer to keep on their good side. Nothing about being on a high horse, its bout observing the laws of the land.
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You can also go in and farm a few days with skill and a well coordinated team to get it as well. That is, if this is about gear. If its about mounts or bag space, then yes, its just easier to buy it, but certainly not pay to win.
Also....Pay to win means you HAVE to pay for a win. You cant continue the story or do content without buying it, thats pay to win. If there is high end gear you can buy with real money that CANNOT be obtained in the game BY ANY MEANS, that is pay 2 win. Getting gear without effort is not pay to win. Its lazy, but not pay 2 win.
Your an idiot. People like you are what allows companies to continue making crappy ripoff games.
How people can honestly attempt to defend this price scheme and business model is beyond me.
It's so blatantly p2w, anyone who tries to defend that it isn't has either dumped a large amount of money into the game or simply hasn't played enough of it.
As mentioned before, there are f2p games with cash shops that only allow you to buy items that are purely cosmetic (LoL, TF2, PoE). Those three games are also very successful. What it ultimately comes down to is this: If one can obtain an item that serves as "player advantage" through monotonous, weekly grinding, OR spend ANY amount of cash to just buy the item from an in-game shop, it constitutes as p2w. Simple. Call it pay for advantage. Call it pay to compete. Call it whatever you want - the message is the same.
In my opinion, this company is pricing themselves out of a HUGE market. Just take the ridiculously priced 40 dollar mounts as an example. I guarantee you I could find 8 people that would pay 5 dollars for an item faster than anyone could find one person to drop 40.
And what's with the constant "Someone you don't know or care about received this super cool heavy inferno horse" messages in-game? What purpose could it serve other than to try and influence people to spend cash for these items? The scheme is so blatant, again, I can't understand how people try and defend this model.
I think, overall, my favorite comments are "lol then just stop playing, dont complain it doesnt solve anything." I'd love to know where society would be if "no one complained" because "nothing will change." The more people speak out against it, the greater likelihood we can get some sort of feedback from the company. I really don't want to see this game implode.
This. I absolutely LOVE the core gameplay, crafting system, Foundry, pretty much anything not related to the economy. But the more I think about people buying their way to power, either by playing the ah, or by having a huge wallet, just makes it harder and harder log in. It's really saddening because this game wasn't even on my radar, but with the way press is saying it's a really good F2P system, I gave it a shot and absolutely loved it. But if things don't change with the whole converting zen to AD to buy BiS, I may have to wait for another game. Simplest solution would be making top tier gear BoP, and that would make it so I could deal with everything else.
Your an idiot. People like you are what allows companies to continue making crappy ripoff games.
Pay To Win Arguments
. . . . . Alright, I see no end to such an argument of "Pay to Win" for there are plenty on both sides, and in the middle, of the coin that feel strongly either way. This is an argument without end and one that brings up far too much inappropriate posting manners into the fray. There are plenty of ways to provide constructive feedback on a system that one does not like, none of which include insulting anyone, direct or indirect.
. . . . . With all the insults insinuated by the usage of "Pay to Win" as an argument, as well as the way these discussions have unfolded in the present and past, "Pay to Win" threads will not be allowed for the time being. Please find a more constructive and non-hostile way to express feedback and opinions one desires change in.
cathgar457Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
The Pay2Win argument is just people see others with stuff or do things with stuff and they are not prepared to spend RL money in a game, even though any said items price can be offset by converting AD to Zen which makes prices cheaper (eg. convert AD to Zen and then spend RL money on Zen to make up the difference for anything you think you need).
Even if prices were dropped in the Zen store, there would still be P2W arguments as then they would want everything for free.
The Zen store does not stop you from playing any part of the game and if you think it does, you should be playing something else.
It's a game which is mainly PVE, so what are you really winning if you buy something from the Zen store?
. . . . . Alright, I see no end to such an argument of "Pay to Win" for there are plenty on both sides, and in the middle, of the coin that feel strongly either way. This is an argument without end and one that brings up far too much inappropriate posting manners into the fray. There are plenty of ways to provide constructive feedback on a system that one does not like, none of which include insulting anyone, direct or indirect.
. . . . . With all the insults insinuated by the usage of "Pay to Win" as an argument, as well as the way these discussions have unfolded in the present and past, "Pay to Win" threads will not be allowed for the time being. Please find a more constructive and non-hostile way to express feedback and opinions one desires change in.
You havent paid to win, you just paid to be first.
Pure gold here. Riddle me this. Traditionally the person who finishes first is call the "blank"?
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vylent2Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Buying gear for real money should never be an option. This also includes other items like faster mounts, classes, powers/abilities, better professions and so on and so forth. I really just want some cosmetics... Im not interested in buying gear or any of the other stuff i listed. Its imba and i like working for my gear. If the only thing they sold were cosmetics they would be higher quality because thats whats making them money.
Its clearly an advantage to spend less time getting the gear and jumping straight into the game. You start doing dungeons faster > gaining rep with guilds > therefore securing spots in groups > gaining other high quality items faster because of rep and because you got into the dungeons quicker > New better gear hits the cash shop > buy again > rinse repeat
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
Pure gold here. Riddle me this. Traditionally the person who finishes first is call the "blank"?
There isn't really any "finishing" here, though. Nor is there any "winning" when it comes to PvE. People paying money are getting convenience. This, (again talking about PvE), isn't a competition. I don't care if you get to the mission destination before me, or if it takes you a few hours less to hit max level than me. You don't get a bigger reward at the end because you didn't have to stop for a few seconds between groups to heal up. You're just paying for shinier stuff, a more suped-up ride, and less downtime...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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vylent2Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
how is downtime not considered a disadvantage? thats not all there is to it... but im still wondering.
There isn't really any "finishing" here, though. Nor is there any "winning" when it comes to PvE. People paying money are getting convenience. This, (again talking about PvE), isn't a competition. I don't care if you get to the mission destination before me, or if it takes you a few hours less to hit max level than me. You don't get a bigger reward at the end because you didn't have to stop for a few seconds between groups to heal up. You're just paying for shinier stuff, a more suped-up ride, and less downtime...
I'd disagree with this, if there's no goal why play. Yes it's fun, but it's nice to feel like you're achieving something. I wouldn't really call clearing the dungeons "finishing", because more than likely you'll run them several more times than the first.
The ultimate carrot on a stick is always progressing your character, and personally I always have it in the back of my head that instead of grinding and grinding I can get everything in a matter of minutes, it really just diminishes endgame PvE. Like I said in my previous posts if they want to make some gear purchasable I could totally live with that. I've hit some points in some games where you get to the lvl cap and it's quite difficult to get the gear you need to actually start dungeons, so being able to expedite that wouldn't be too bad, but the higher tiers of gear should have to be earned through their respective playstyles.
You can buy zen, convert to AD and buy gear with it. The game is pay to win. What keeps it reasonable is that there is not a strict pay barrier like uber items that are cash only. Still, you can buy power which is the very definition of pay to win.
That being said I don't really care. It's not so bad it ruins the game, not even close. There is no point in trying to pretend you can't pay to be stronger though because you absolutely can. There is no argument.
. . . Alright, I see no end to such an argument of "Pay to Win" for there are plenty on both sides, and in the middle, of the coin that feel strongly either way. This is an argument without end and one that brings up far too much inappropriate posting manners into the fray. There are plenty of ways to provide constructive feedback on a system that one does not like, none of which include insulting anyone, direct or indirect.
. . . . . With all the insults insinuated by the usage of "Pay to Win" as an argument, as well as the way these discussions have unfolded in the present and past, "Pay to Win" threads will not be allowed for the time being. Please find a more constructive and non-hostile way to express feedback and opinions one desires change in.
People are being perfectly civil so please stop posting this. It's not an issue that's going to get better if it's ignored, and if people are voicing their opinions and not calling the other side names there's no harm done
People are being perfectly civil so please stop posting this. It's not an issue that's going to get better if it's ignored, and if people are voicing their opinions and not calling the other side names there's no harm done
. . . Alright, I see no end to such an argument of "Pay to Win" for there are plenty on both sides, and in the middle, of the coin that feel strongly either way. This is an argument without end and one that brings up far too much inappropriate posting manners into the fray. There are plenty of ways to provide constructive feedback on a system that one does not like, none of which include insulting anyone, direct or indirect.
. . . . . With all the insults insinuated by the usage of "Pay to Win" as an argument, as well as the way these discussions have unfolded in the present and past, "Pay to Win" threads will not be allowed for the time being. Please find a more constructive and non-hostile way to express feedback and opinions one desires change in.
Comments
1 good grind can get you the pvp sword pet, that sell for 160k
I agree with this, The only way to get the prices down is to not pay them. But people still do, So prices won't change.
I honestly think that a good company would reduce prices even when they are being bought. Too bad this is PWE.
Or....now I know its hard to follow me on this, but try to keep up, you can always do a few dungeons and get that same gear for free. Minus about 2-3 hours. Now.... technically, you buying the item for roughly 1000Zen in this fashion only saved you what....an hour or two? And thats just the epic dungeon gear. This doesnt apply to the weaker PvP gear which is going to take longer, but again, its not something you paid for. Its something you got for free with some time investments. Still not pay to win, because I have the same advatages as the other players, and never spent a dime.
You havent paid to win, you just paid to be first. We have the same gear, you just got it before me. That not winning, that impatience and lazyness. And dont try the idea that in a p2w game you buy gear to get an advantage or other players. You dont have an advantage. If you had an advantage, I woudlnt be able to get that same advantage without buying it. Yet I can go without buying it, thus its not an advantage, since we are both equal.
oh well you convinced me. the old "words have no defined meaning therefore talking is pointless" argument. which is always a winner, especially since it relies on being wrong to even be able to communicate the argument to anyone.
lol yes, buying the best gear in the game is not an advantage if you can earn it on your own given enough time. that's another great argument there.
I'll assume this is sarcasm then, since its the only response you have and cant back your argument with reasoning to counter mine.
Now, let me expand, since you took my words out of context.
No, you dont have an advantage, we can get the same gear. You just get yours first. Its not an advantage when I can have what you have. It IS an advantage when you have something I cannot possible get without doing the same thing you did. But you dont have something I cant get without some work and planning. You have an epic perfectly rolled weapon? I can get that. You have the end game boots? I dont have to buy that, I can get it without money.
Ok, Chief. another winner of an argument there.
Looks like I dont need to explain further, since your arguments are so fallen and decrepit, you cant use them and have to resort to bad sarcasm. Too bad, I prefer more challenge with my discussions. I guess you cant pay 2 win in the game OR the forums.
LOL dude got smoked.
You are however forgetting my lvl 9 enhancements over your measly lvl 6s in pvp.....and/or gear checks.(lets be honest...this is the next step in this mmo) so I clearly would have a advantage over you for a long time..if not the rest of your career here.
Henceforth, pay to win
Be respectful, remember, you PLAY the game at your convenience, they WORK at no ones."
Mods Updated Post
Our best bet is to agree to disagree and let this thread either die, or be locked.
you have been arguing right along with us, please climb off your high horse and drink the same poo water as the rest of us.
Be respectful, remember, you PLAY the game at your convenience, they WORK at no ones."
How people can honestly attempt to defend this price scheme and business model is beyond me.
It's so blatantly p2w, anyone who tries to defend that it isn't has either dumped a large amount of money into the game or simply hasn't played enough of it.
As mentioned before, there are f2p games with cash shops that only allow you to buy items that are purely cosmetic (LoL, TF2, PoE). Those three games are also very successful. What it ultimately comes down to is this: If one can obtain an item that serves as "player advantage" through monotonous, weekly grinding, OR spend ANY amount of cash to just buy the item from an in-game shop, it constitutes as p2w. Simple. Call it pay for advantage. Call it pay to compete. Call it whatever you want - the message is the same.
In my opinion, this company is pricing themselves out of a HUGE market. Just take the ridiculously priced 40 dollar mounts as an example. I guarantee you I could find 8 people that would pay 5 dollars for an item faster than anyone could find one person to drop 40.
And what's with the constant "Someone you don't know or care about received this super cool heavy inferno horse" messages in-game? What purpose could it serve other than to try and influence people to spend cash for these items? The scheme is so blatant, again, I can't understand how people try and defend this model.
I think, overall, my favorite comments are "lol then just stop playing, dont complain it doesnt solve anything." I'd love to know where society would be if "no one complained" because "nothing will change." The more people speak out against it, the greater likelihood we can get some sort of feedback from the company. I really don't want to see this game implode.
I'm not arguing anymore as we could get banned for disobeying mod rules. If you view the link I posted, the mods actually are no longer allowing pay 2 win arguments of discussions. So you can keep it up and get banned, But I prefer to keep on their good side. Nothing about being on a high horse, its bout observing the laws of the land.
Your an idiot. People like you are what allows companies to continue making crappy ripoff games.
Mods Updated Post
Even if prices were dropped in the Zen store, there would still be P2W arguments as then they would want everything for free.
The Zen store does not stop you from playing any part of the game and if you think it does, you should be playing something else.
It's a game which is mainly PVE, so what are you really winning if you buy something from the Zen store?
Or is it just the haves and the have nots?
Mods Updated Post
Last time I post this before I contact a Mod.
Pure gold here. Riddle me this. Traditionally the person who finishes first is call the "blank"?
Its clearly an advantage to spend less time getting the gear and jumping straight into the game. You start doing dungeons faster > gaining rep with guilds > therefore securing spots in groups > gaining other high quality items faster because of rep and because you got into the dungeons quicker > New better gear hits the cash shop > buy again > rinse repeat
There isn't really any "finishing" here, though. Nor is there any "winning" when it comes to PvE. People paying money are getting convenience. This, (again talking about PvE), isn't a competition. I don't care if you get to the mission destination before me, or if it takes you a few hours less to hit max level than me. You don't get a bigger reward at the end because you didn't have to stop for a few seconds between groups to heal up. You're just paying for shinier stuff, a more suped-up ride, and less downtime...
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
The ultimate carrot on a stick is always progressing your character, and personally I always have it in the back of my head that instead of grinding and grinding I can get everything in a matter of minutes, it really just diminishes endgame PvE. Like I said in my previous posts if they want to make some gear purchasable I could totally live with that. I've hit some points in some games where you get to the lvl cap and it's quite difficult to get the gear you need to actually start dungeons, so being able to expedite that wouldn't be too bad, but the higher tiers of gear should have to be earned through their respective playstyles.
That being said I don't really care. It's not so bad it ruins the game, not even close. There is no point in trying to pretend you can't pay to be stronger though because you absolutely can. There is no argument.