We can argue about the definition of P2W but the fact stays... you can buy best gear with money. The game does not reward you for the time you put in it.
Thats my point. You can buy the best gear in ANY GAME. Its just a matter whether you pay the company that makes the game, or go through a 3rd party company, or pay other players. Some of those games it does violate the ToS, but its still possible to do and does regularly happen. Doesnt mean they are all p2w games
By that logic, pretty much every single game out there is p2w. Name an MMO that you couldnt just pay a group of people to get the best/rarest gear out there. There are groups in WoW that regularly carry people through end game raids for money, does that make WoW all the sudden a p2w game?
p2w means getting things that can ONLY and i repeat ONLY be bought with real money. If they had a magic cap in the zen store that give +1000 to all stats, THAT is p2w
^ This.
P2W means paying money for something that gives you an advantage that is only available with RL money and one cannot get in game thru normal gameplay.
The gear drops in game is better then the AD merchants gear, hands down, I suppose we'll hear how the potions from vendors are pay 2 win as well because we can convert Zen to AD and buy as many pots as we can.
No because the company doesnt facilitate it, and no because they still have to earn it they are still running the content even if carried. We have a company here is trying to profit off of this sort of conduct and making no atempt to deny that fact. Plus i like how everyone just ignores whole ward issue lol...
The wards? The wards you can get from the coffer for logging in 7 days in a row, that you still dont need to buy, but you can get from being patient and logging in every day of the week? I know you can buy them, but that just expediates the process, it doesnt make it p2w still.
No because the company doesnt facilitate it, and no because they still have to earn it they are still running the content even if carried. We have a company here is trying to profit off of this sort of conduct and making no atempt to deny that fact. Plus i like how everyone just ignores whole ward issue lol...
Not going into the ward issue, I agree that to get the best enchants you pretty much have to pay money or grind for an unreasonable amount of time.
I'm just talking about the gear, and to say somebody "earned" a full raid set or whatever items by running in and dying and watching a group of people complete the raid without them is rediculous. Some people are gonna spend money to save them time in game, PW is just allowing them to pay them rather than somebody else
Pay to win has always meant, you can ONLY win by paying. End of Story. NW is NOT P2W. I can achieve anything people that pay to do.. anything that requires AD or Zen can be bought without RL cash.
p2w has always meant selling power - even if that power can also be had by grinding.
Many peoples tolerance level revolves around whether or not paying is the ONLY way to obtain the power., but this doesnt make the definition of p2w exclusive to only that situation.
The sheer amount of grind that would be needed to obtain everything that can be paid for is absurd. At some point people have to understand that because it can be ground out in game, its not realistic to do so at anywhere near the same speed (we are talking orders of magnitude here) that people can have it by paying. The advantage gained by paying is having the power longer while it is relevant before it becomes obsolete.
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Pay to win has always meant, you can ONLY win by paying. End of Story. NW is NOT P2W. I can achieve anything people that pay to do.. anything that requires AD or Zen can be bought without RL cash.
this is how I see it.
Lets give an example. Max level is 60, but you can't progress further after level 50 because you need to BUY a key from cash shop. IF we don't have Zen/AD exchange, then this is consider PAY to WIN.
If you CAN'T run epic dungeon after hitting 60, and need to spend CASH to buy starting gear (or even higher level gear) in order to RUN epic dungeon (T1 in this case) then it is pay to win.
I am still going with "Pay to Grind less" since we CAN earn Zen via AD exchange. You CAN run anything without having to pay.
There is a thin line on Pay2Win where people can BUY epic gear in Auction House with AD (which you can get by grinding AND/OR buying Zen and exchange for AD on the player driven market)
Some see "pay2win" as in people don't have to run instance (T1,T2 etc) to get the best gear. I guess some are mad at this cause, they lose their epeen value. To me, there are plenty of players who know how to play the game and "buying" their gear via AD just make them better characters.
iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
A- You can buy endgame gear that someone else ninjad. There is a boe on endgame system that anyone can roll on specifically for this reason- so that a TR can ninja those DC items and sell them for AD that you bought with zen. This is so transparant it shouldn't need to be explained- so p2w number one.
B- 110% mounts cost you about 2.5 million AD, even if you max your dailies, you're looking at 4 months to buy a mount... or you can pay 40 bucks. Now, normally, I'd agree that mounts are only convenience in another game- but in any other game you can just get a mount in game from drops or for a price so reasonable you'll have it just be levelling- and in most other games, you can't use a mount in pvp. Mounts are in pvp- are very useful in pvp- thus are p2w number two.
C- Endgame enchants. Very rare drops. To make a minor enchant, you need 4 shards from endgame dungeons- sounds fair so far. You also need, for a normal enchant, 4 of those enchants- so 16 shards so far. Sounds reasonable to grind for. For a greater, 64 shards- that's pretty hefty, it'll take the average person weeks if not months to get that- but, this is endgame, and if we ignore these being on the AH for people with cash to buy immediately, it just sounds like a very long grind.
That is, until you consider that there is a 1% chance for these to fuse- aka, if you want to fuse it, you must use a blue ward. These have a rare chance to drop from 7 day coin packs (you'd be lucky to get one a month, not sure of actual drop rates). You need to make 16 minor enchants, 4 normal enchants, and one greater- so that's 21 wards. You're talking a year and a half WITH luck to get ONE enchant- or 210$.
Going with p2w being 'as long as you can reasonably attain it in game', I think a year and a half for an enchant (that will most definitely be obsolete by then) is a bit longer than 'reasonable'. Inb4 someone tells me that a greater vorpal doesn't give you an advantage in pvp over someone with no enchant.
We could also point out how the majority of AD is already in the hands of exploiters who bolted to 60 and immediately began to afk farm pvp gear that they are now selling en masse. And ninjas who have loads of t2 gear to sell.
I'm actually now, in relation to the rest of the game, considering the 200 dollar pack a sound investment. The pet and mount alone are worth at least 70 dollars... and as someone who likes to alt, and will likely end up with 7 characters- that works out to 490 dollars just from the companion and mount I don't have to spend.
You can bypass the p2w aspects- if you're saavy with the AH. Or, if you simply ninja gear or afk farm pvp. Frankly, afk pvp farming is something anyone can do- and there are people with twenty accounts, who had their characters all ogre farm to 60 in a few hours, who are now all chain invoking, while chain professions using to push out assets to sell, while chain pvp afk farming. Simply put- the game isn't meant to be played legit, and considering they were warned of this in alpha/beta and did nothing- pretty clear Cryptic is overjoyed that the average player knows they're going to need to fork out cash to keep up.
A- You can buy endgame gear that someone else ninjad. There is a boe on endgame system that anyone can roll on specifically for this reason- so that a TR can ninja those DC items and sell them for AD that you bought with zen. This is so transparant it shouldn't need to be explained- so p2w number one.
I didnt realize that I couldnt get that gear without paying real money for it! I thought I could go into the dungeon and get it myself!
B- 110% mounts cost you about 2.5 million AD, even if you max your dailies, you're looking at 4 months to buy a mount... or you can pay 40 bucks. Now, normally, I'd agree that mounts are only convenience in another game- but in any other game you can just get a mount in game from drops or for a price so reasonable you'll have it just be levelling- and in most other games, you can't use a mount in pvp. Mounts are in pvp- are very useful in pvp- thus are p2w number two.
I didnt realize that I had to only pay real money to buy a mount....wait, you just said I could wait 4 months to get the mount without paying for it. And yet its still pay to win? Isnt that pay to not grind? Or pay to be impatient?
Going with p2w being 'as long as you can reasonably attain it in game', I think a year and a half for an enchant (that will most definitely be obsolete by then) is a bit longer than 'reasonable'. Inb4 someone tells me that a greater vorpal doesn't give you an advantage in pvp over someone with no enchant.
Reasonable isnt in the pay to win thing. At all. Pay to win means you have to buy something to continue the game, or the only way to get certain end game items is buying them, and in no way shape form or fashion are they available to players who dont spend money in the game. Time frams dont work with pay to win because at NO point in time can you continue or get these item without paying. Here, you can get them anytime. Either now for money, or later for time investments.
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ms18instachiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 9Arc User
Its pay to win, cause you can get the BEST GEAR IN THE GAME if you pay. Period.
Aye... You should never be able to buy items in a F2P game unless its cosmetic, such items would be dubbed cosmetic items (mounts,dye's costumes that look awesome ect)
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morbicMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Aye... You should never be able to buy items in a F2P game unless its cosmetic, such items would be dubbed cosmetic items (mounts,dye's costumes that look awesome ect)
Said items are only in the Zen store for the most part. What they are referring to is using Zen to get Astral Diamonds to buy something else from the Auction House in-game from a player that went through a dungeon and got high end gear that is currently BoE and not BoP.
Its pay to win, cause you can get the BEST GEAR IN THE GAME if you pay. Period.
What exactly do you win hmm?
Moar PvE loot?
"Look Maw, I went and bought this shiny pants that someone got in a dungeon! Whats that you say? The purpose of PvE is to actually play the content? Pffft!"
Better PvP?
"Look Maw, I bought these shiny swordy thingies and now I last 3 seconds in a 1v1 fight cause I have no actual skill. What's that? I would have gotten those skills if I played enough PvP matches to buy them myself with glory instead of getting them of the auction house? Pffft!
So where exactly is the "pay to win" here??? its just pay to grind less
So who says its not p2w because you can get gear otherwise...
So by that logic, if they put a REALLY REALLY GOOD item you can buy with ZEN, but that item is in the game but only a very rare mob drops it with 0,5% chance than its ok. Its not P2W cause you can get it otherwise... just takes longer...
So who says its not p2w because you can get gear otherwise...
So by that logic, if they put a REALLY REALLY GOOD item you can buy with ZEN, but that item is in the game but only a very rare mob drops it with 0,5% chance than its ok. Its not P2W cause you can get it otherwise... just takes longer...
Yeah pretty much, because as a non paying character, I can get it and win. Where did I pay to win?
"Look Maw, I went and bought this shiny pants that someone got in a dungeon! Whats that you say? The purpose of PvE is to actually play the content? Pffft!"
...
"Look Maw, I bought these shiny swordy thingies and now I last 3 seconds in a 1v1 fight cause I have no actual skill. What's that? I would have gotten those skills if I played enough PvP matches to buy them myself with glory instead of getting them of the auction house? Pffft!
What Maw should have mentioned between dinner and her career, is that that shiny new sword and the armor and the enchants and the mount will let you get by with less skill. Some pvp’ers don’t think that is okay. They would like potential scrubs to be scrubs and fold over easily like wrinkled money. They don’t want them to be armed like a third world country with a first world buddy.
You are correct that the arms will not replace skill but it means that I don’t have to be quite as good as you to beat you. You won’t be rolled by cats on keyboards, but the wealthy pvp crowd doesn’t have to work as hard, train as hard or fight as hard as the free crowd.
If all that is fine with you then off to the battleground with you, get with it, take ‘em out, err, take em down, whatever that is that you do there. If that isn’t okay with you then a little more money and a little less effort and you too can be powerful and snatch respect from the lifeless fingers of your poverty stricken foes!
What Maw should have mentioned between dinner and her career, is that that shiny new sword and the armor and the enchants and the mount will let you get by with less skill. Some pvp’ers don’t think that is okay. They would like potential scrubs to be scrubs and fold over easily like wrinkled money. They don’t want them to be armed like a third world country with a first world buddy.
You are correct that the arms will not replace skill but it means that I don’t have to be quite as good as you to beat you. You won’t be rolled by cats on keyboards, but the wealthy pvp crowd doesn’t have to work as hard, train as hard or fight as hard as the free crowd.
If all that is fine with you then off to the battleground with you, get with it, take ‘em out, err, take em down, whatever that is that you do there. If that isn’t okay with you then a little more money and a little less effort and you too can be powerful and snatch respect from the lifeless fingers of your poverty stricken foes!
What is best? A dollah.
But If we both have the same Endgame PvP gear (which if you focus on PvP leveling you will have when you hit 60 ). . .I will always beat you, as you lack the skills necessary to defeat me. . .
this game has bby far the most expensive cash shop from all the games ive played.
and while it is not technically p2w, it is practically.
for like 5 euros you can get around 200k gems.
to farm those 200k gems it will take you several days.
worst thing is that people have an advantage in pvp with their founder's pack mount.
thats the only thing i got a problem with.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited May 2013
. . . . . I am not allowing Pay to Win arguments at this time, they are arguments without end and spark too much rule violations by those posting within. Additionally, there already is a thread that is being allowed that touches on this topic. Thanks!
Comments
Thats my point. You can buy the best gear in ANY GAME. Its just a matter whether you pay the company that makes the game, or go through a 3rd party company, or pay other players. Some of those games it does violate the ToS, but its still possible to do and does regularly happen. Doesnt mean they are all p2w games
^ This.
P2W means paying money for something that gives you an advantage that is only available with RL money and one cannot get in game thru normal gameplay.
The gear drops in game is better then the AD merchants gear, hands down, I suppose we'll hear how the potions from vendors are pay 2 win as well because we can convert Zen to AD and buy as many pots as we can.
The wards? The wards you can get from the coffer for logging in 7 days in a row, that you still dont need to buy, but you can get from being patient and logging in every day of the week? I know you can buy them, but that just expediates the process, it doesnt make it p2w still.
Not going into the ward issue, I agree that to get the best enchants you pretty much have to pay money or grind for an unreasonable amount of time.
I'm just talking about the gear, and to say somebody "earned" a full raid set or whatever items by running in and dying and watching a group of people complete the raid without them is rediculous. Some people are gonna spend money to save them time in game, PW is just allowing them to pay them rather than somebody else
By the strictest definition, Neverwinter is not P2W.
However, one can argue that if the grind necessary is SO onerous compared to simply shelling out money, that it's effectively p2w.
Whether or not the pay/high grind items in NW are 'necessary' is a major point of contention.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Many peoples tolerance level revolves around whether or not paying is the ONLY way to obtain the power., but this doesnt make the definition of p2w exclusive to only that situation.
The sheer amount of grind that would be needed to obtain everything that can be paid for is absurd. At some point people have to understand that because it can be ground out in game, its not realistic to do so at anywhere near the same speed (we are talking orders of magnitude here) that people can have it by paying. The advantage gained by paying is having the power longer while it is relevant before it becomes obsolete.
this is how I see it.
Lets give an example. Max level is 60, but you can't progress further after level 50 because you need to BUY a key from cash shop. IF we don't have Zen/AD exchange, then this is consider PAY to WIN.
If you CAN'T run epic dungeon after hitting 60, and need to spend CASH to buy starting gear (or even higher level gear) in order to RUN epic dungeon (T1 in this case) then it is pay to win.
I am still going with "Pay to Grind less" since we CAN earn Zen via AD exchange. You CAN run anything without having to pay.
There is a thin line on Pay2Win where people can BUY epic gear in Auction House with AD (which you can get by grinding AND/OR buying Zen and exchange for AD on the player driven market)
Some see "pay2win" as in people don't have to run instance (T1,T2 etc) to get the best gear. I guess some are mad at this cause, they lose their epeen value. To me, there are plenty of players who know how to play the game and "buying" their gear via AD just make them better characters.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
B- 110% mounts cost you about 2.5 million AD, even if you max your dailies, you're looking at 4 months to buy a mount... or you can pay 40 bucks. Now, normally, I'd agree that mounts are only convenience in another game- but in any other game you can just get a mount in game from drops or for a price so reasonable you'll have it just be levelling- and in most other games, you can't use a mount in pvp. Mounts are in pvp- are very useful in pvp- thus are p2w number two.
C- Endgame enchants. Very rare drops. To make a minor enchant, you need 4 shards from endgame dungeons- sounds fair so far. You also need, for a normal enchant, 4 of those enchants- so 16 shards so far. Sounds reasonable to grind for. For a greater, 64 shards- that's pretty hefty, it'll take the average person weeks if not months to get that- but, this is endgame, and if we ignore these being on the AH for people with cash to buy immediately, it just sounds like a very long grind.
That is, until you consider that there is a 1% chance for these to fuse- aka, if you want to fuse it, you must use a blue ward. These have a rare chance to drop from 7 day coin packs (you'd be lucky to get one a month, not sure of actual drop rates). You need to make 16 minor enchants, 4 normal enchants, and one greater- so that's 21 wards. You're talking a year and a half WITH luck to get ONE enchant- or 210$.
Going with p2w being 'as long as you can reasonably attain it in game', I think a year and a half for an enchant (that will most definitely be obsolete by then) is a bit longer than 'reasonable'. Inb4 someone tells me that a greater vorpal doesn't give you an advantage in pvp over someone with no enchant.
We could also point out how the majority of AD is already in the hands of exploiters who bolted to 60 and immediately began to afk farm pvp gear that they are now selling en masse. And ninjas who have loads of t2 gear to sell.
I'm actually now, in relation to the rest of the game, considering the 200 dollar pack a sound investment. The pet and mount alone are worth at least 70 dollars... and as someone who likes to alt, and will likely end up with 7 characters- that works out to 490 dollars just from the companion and mount I don't have to spend.
You can bypass the p2w aspects- if you're saavy with the AH. Or, if you simply ninja gear or afk farm pvp. Frankly, afk pvp farming is something anyone can do- and there are people with twenty accounts, who had their characters all ogre farm to 60 in a few hours, who are now all chain invoking, while chain professions using to push out assets to sell, while chain pvp afk farming. Simply put- the game isn't meant to be played legit, and considering they were warned of this in alpha/beta and did nothing- pretty clear Cryptic is overjoyed that the average player knows they're going to need to fork out cash to keep up.
I didnt realize that I couldnt get that gear without paying real money for it! I thought I could go into the dungeon and get it myself!
I didnt realize that I had to only pay real money to buy a mount....wait, you just said I could wait 4 months to get the mount without paying for it. And yet its still pay to win? Isnt that pay to not grind? Or pay to be impatient?
Reasonable isnt in the pay to win thing. At all. Pay to win means you have to buy something to continue the game, or the only way to get certain end game items is buying them, and in no way shape form or fashion are they available to players who dont spend money in the game. Time frams dont work with pay to win because at NO point in time can you continue or get these item without paying. Here, you can get them anytime. Either now for money, or later for time investments.
Aye... You should never be able to buy items in a F2P game unless its cosmetic, such items would be dubbed cosmetic items (mounts,dye's costumes that look awesome ect)
Said items are only in the Zen store for the most part. What they are referring to is using Zen to get Astral Diamonds to buy something else from the Auction House in-game from a player that went through a dungeon and got high end gear that is currently BoE and not BoP.
Foundry Content:Guide - Custom Channels and List (NW-DHBU9OTOS)
Asset upgrading poll.
What exactly do you win hmm?
Moar PvE loot?
"Look Maw, I went and bought this shiny pants that someone got in a dungeon! Whats that you say? The purpose of PvE is to actually play the content? Pffft!"
Better PvP?
"Look Maw, I bought these shiny swordy thingies and now I last 3 seconds in a 1v1 fight cause I have no actual skill. What's that? I would have gotten those skills if I played enough PvP matches to buy them myself with glory instead of getting them of the auction house? Pffft!
So where exactly is the "pay to win" here??? its just pay to grind less
So by that logic, if they put a REALLY REALLY GOOD item you can buy with ZEN, but that item is in the game but only a very rare mob drops it with 0,5% chance than its ok. Its not P2W cause you can get it otherwise... just takes longer...
CS issue? Check this thread first! | Reporting exploits: Done Right
Yeah pretty much, because as a non paying character, I can get it and win. Where did I pay to win?
What Maw should have mentioned between dinner and her career, is that that shiny new sword and the armor and the enchants and the mount will let you get by with less skill. Some pvp’ers don’t think that is okay. They would like potential scrubs to be scrubs and fold over easily like wrinkled money. They don’t want them to be armed like a third world country with a first world buddy.
You are correct that the arms will not replace skill but it means that I don’t have to be quite as good as you to beat you. You won’t be rolled by cats on keyboards, but the wealthy pvp crowd doesn’t have to work as hard, train as hard or fight as hard as the free crowd.
If all that is fine with you then off to the battleground with you, get with it, take ‘em out, err, take em down, whatever that is that you do there. If that isn’t okay with you then a little more money and a little less effort and you too can be powerful and snatch respect from the lifeless fingers of your poverty stricken foes!
What is best? A dollah.
But If we both have the same Endgame PvP gear (which if you focus on PvP leveling you will have when you hit 60 ). . .I will always beat you, as you lack the skills necessary to defeat me. . .
and while it is not technically p2w, it is practically.
for like 5 euros you can get around 200k gems.
to farm those 200k gems it will take you several days.
worst thing is that people have an advantage in pvp with their founder's pack mount.
thats the only thing i got a problem with.
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