I still don't know why you people care so much. Seriously. If you see someone AFK, leave your party and try again --'
Well for one thing that wastes our time. With the number of AFKers around I don't even see that as a valid response. They have said it's one of the things they are looking into so hopefully something will be put in place soon.
if you must win the PvP to get anything at all, then it would no longer be PvP... instead it would be PtW, everything else is already in place for PtW, the ONLY part missing is the loser getting NOTHING.f
There is few idea's about how to solve this.
1st: Put auto kick for being afk 1min.
2nd: Vote kick, coz sometimes afk guy gets leader and u can't do anything to him.
offtopic. Would like to see a match maker so ppl who afk don't have reason to do it. Most of greeny ppl can't stand a chance vs full geared guys.
Removing reward would be stupid thing to do.
What the **** is "coz"?
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited May 2013
I'm fine with the non-winners (There are no losers in Neverwinter!) of a match getting glory. There are many other things Cryptic can do, or at least try, to address the AFK issue before resorting to taking out the main motivation for a lot of people to even try PvP in the first place.
The number 1 thing they need to do is make dailies repeatable more than once a day. Ideally you could do the dailies as many times as you want each (keeping in mind that you can only refine 24000 diamonds a day so that would put a cap on how much you could really earn), but even if they want a hard cap of 6000 on the number of diamonds you can earn each day from dailies (like we have now) they could still make it so you could run 6 skirmishes, or 2 dungeons, or 1 dungeon and 3 foundry, or any other combination that would add up to 6000 diamonds). I hate PvP and have never been willing to do it in any MMO before this one. However in this one I PvP every day just for the diamonds. I don't go afk, but I am terrible at it. I am a liability to any group that gets stuck with me and frankly, they should not have to put up with it. Why do I queue for PvP and bother them then? Astral diamonds. If I want that extra 1000 astral diamonds I have to PvP each day. I understand trying to get people to play a variety of activities each day, but when it hurts other players (that actually like PvP) that is just bad game design.
And the suggestion to only reward the group that wins makes it even worse because then when you get stuck with a player like me in your group your chances are shot. No point in hurting the good players because they got stuck with some bad ones.
What they need to do outside of the Timers, is a Performance System.
I.e
Assists,Kills,Deaths,Damage Done,Healing Done,Points Defend, Points Captured, Attempted Point Capture, Attempted Point Defense etc etc.
So if a afker is in fact afking and just standing around doing nothing that person won't get any points at all. While those that at least try would get points. Now am not saying that this is how people get more points or anything but a counter measure to afkers.
So even if they do come in and assist once they won't get anything if they don't keep doing it and helping out. So if they get one assist or kill then afk, they can still very well get zero points cause they aren't still doing anything.
I do not PvP . . . because it is so sad to see people of all ages and cultures cry so much every time they feel like their uber status has been compromised somehow, as well as the fact that none of them could complete a single grammatically correct sentence in their life (even if their precious PvP score depended on it). However, for the sake of being constructive . . .
I propose to the Devs the fix that was implemented in Rift during the farming events that were happening over there - especially over holiday events. These were PvE, but the concept is similar to what has already been mentioned above. If you do not move your character in 60 seconds time and you are in a team participating in the event, the server automatically removed you from the event/match.
The only other logical option is to make it so that you must win in order to get credit, which is the entire point anyway, after all, since winning is a form of completing the task at hand. PvPers just want to go in and shoot at stuff and have their rewards handed to them for nothing, thus so they can go brag and pretend they earned the gear/award somehow. Perhaps they should work for their rewards?
I hope this helps. Now to go see if the server is back up
You're talking about arena pvp where the only objective is to kill eachother. Neverwinter doesn't have that. There's actually an objective and it is to control domination points and that's the only thing that matters.
If you want to discuss arena pvp do it elsewhere.
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danxbxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Now we have whole teams of AFKers queing. Nice way to farm the daily.
Exactly. When you see people LFG AFK PvP, it's broke. These people are not PvP'ers. They are simply trying to farm easy RAD. It ruins PvP. Glory and RAD should be based on participation. Reward defending and taking over objectives.
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danxbxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
if you must win the PvP to get anything at all, then it would no longer be PvP... instead it would be PtW, everything else is already in place for PtW, the ONLY part missing is the loser getting NOTHING.f
The loser gets Glory. The main issue is the RAD farmers. I bet if you remove the PvP daily, PvP would improve drastically. And I'm not just complaining because I get stuck on teams with AFK'ers. It is boring as hell winning 1000 to 0.
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aveanMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is like you're saying we should be awarding bad player/team. PvP is competitve game play where the best players or best team wins and must be awarded accordingly. Dying means you're not playing smart why would a game award you for that ?
I as a TR, generally go into PvP with the intent to Die 5-8 times, its my goal and I help my team by doing so, im not a "Bad" player and most of my teams arnt "bad" either. In fact we generally win 1000 to 200 or less and I almost always have less kills sometimes only one or two.
Your misconception is that you win by killing, and the masses having that view is why my team always wins, I have a saying play to die not play to kill, kill and lose.
So my question is why should a game penalize players at all for playing(not afk not playing), and why should people you view as not smart be the same as others? Since clearly we have the same views towards ourselves and eachother - I am just giving the other side so that the devs may reconsider if they would add your aspect.
gear should be BoA although the amount of gear, price and reward dont support it, since you would only need to play for one day, likewise the gear cant sell since its so easy to obtain. The shop needs more items, more gear, more level range rewards, and either a higher price or a weaker gain. Ideally a higher cap since 25k is childsplay.
This is like you're saying we should be awarding bad player/team. PvP is competitve game play where the best players or best team wins and must be awarded accordingly. Dying means you're not playing smart why would a game award you for that ?
I don't agree you should minus deaths. I have routinely ended matches as a Rogue with a kill/death ratio of 10:1 or better. But I fully realize that doesn't make me the best player on my team, even when I top the chart at the end.
If I am not dying, that simply means that the enemy team chose to focus fire others before me. There have been other matches where I go 1:7, and that has nothing to do with how good or bad I'm playing during the match. If the other team chooses to target me, I will die, and there's nothing I can do about it (except running away, but that doesn't help my team, now does it?)
I'll also die more if I'm not standing beside a healer who is healing me. I'll die more if my team abandons me. I'll die in plenty of situations which do not reflect negatively on me as a player, and I should not be punished for that. That's just another thing that encourages selfish play.
I once was on a team which won the match 1000:370, and our team had a total of 10 kills. The other side had a total of something like 25 kills. We won by smartly using knockbacks and other area denial/crowd control to keep ourselves on the points, while keeping our enemies off the points. We didn't score many kills, but won the match handily. Stats like damage dealt, kills/assists, and number of points captured simply don't reflect how a winning team "must" operate. I mean, If I stand at mid (capture point 2) and successfully defend it all game, I will only have credit for 1 "point capture." Is that fair to me, the player who successfully fought off wave after wave of enemy assaults?
I could go on and on about strategies which do not require high kill counts, and which lead to a lot of deaths for one character. Like a Guardian Fighter who sneaks onto the capture point near the enemy spawn, and holds it as long as possible before dying. He might score a single capture, but he won't score any kills and is eventually guaranteed to die, but that can be a winning strategy. His job is to stand on that point for as long as possible, in order to both deny the enemy any points from that capture point, and also to hopefully draw 2 or 3 enemies to his location, so that the rest of his team can outnumber the enemies at the other 2 points.
Rewarding kills, assists, and captures (and I would add to that your team's score, wherever it is between 0 and 1000 when the match is over) with increased glory is fine, and I agree with you that it may help to entice players to help out their team instead of going AFK (playing selfishly is better than not playing at all.) It might even keep players fighting right until the bitter end, in an attempt to score a few more points in a losing effort. However, to deduct points for deaths is a huge mistake. It doesn't help entice AFKers to get more involved, but it does punish players who might otherwise be willing to sacrifice their personal stats to help out the team.
-Travail.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
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danxbxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't agree you should minus deaths. I have routinely ended matches as a Rogue with a kill/death ratio of 10:1 or better. But I fully realize that doesn't make me the best player on my team, even when I top the chart at the end.
If I am not dying, that simply means that the enemy team chose to focus fire others before me. There have been other matches where I go 1:7, and that has nothing to do with how good or bad I'm playing during the match. If the other team chooses to target me, I will die, and there's nothing I can do about it (except running away, but that doesn't help my team, now does it?)
I'll also die more if I'm not standing beside a healer who is healing me. I'll die more if my team abandons me. I'll die in plenty of situations which do not reflect negatively on me as a player, and I should not be punished for that. That's just another thing that encourages selfish play.
I once was on a team which won the match 1000:370, and our team had a total of 10 kills. The other side had a total of something like 25 kills. We won by smartly using knockbacks and other area denial/crowd control to keep ourselves on the points, while keeping our enemies off the points. We didn't score many kills, but won the match handily. Stats like damage dealt, kills/assists, and number of points captured simply don't reflect how a winning team "must" operate. I mean, If I stand at mid (capture point 2) and successfully defend it all game, I will only have credit for 1 "point capture." Is that fair to me, the player who successfully fought off wave after wave of enemy assaults?
I could go on and on about strategies which do not require high kill counts, and which lead to a lot of deaths for one character. Like a Guardian Fighter who sneaks onto the capture point near the enemy spawn, and holds it as long as possible before dying. He might score a single capture, but he won't score any kills and is eventually guaranteed to die, but that can be a winning strategy. His job is to stand on that point for as long as possible, in order to both deny the enemy any points from that capture point, and also to hopefully draw 2 or 3 enemies to his location, so that the rest of his team can outnumber the enemies at the other 2 points.
Rewarding kills, assists, and captures (and I would add to that your team's score, wherever it is between 0 and 1000 when the match is over) with increased glory is fine, and I agree with you that it may help to entice players to help out their team instead of going AFK (playing selfishly is better than not playing at all.) It might even keep players fighting right until the bitter end, in an attempt to score a few more points in a losing effort. However, to deduct points for deaths is a huge mistake. It doesn't help entice AFKers to get more involved, but it does punish players who might otherwise be willing to sacrifice their personal stats to help out the team.
-Travail.
Totally agree. The rewards should be based on how much time you spend at a control point with a bonus to the winning team. If the objective is to control points, then reward that.
Want to drastically reduce AFK PvP'ers? Stop rewarding the behavior. Make it so you have to win to complete the daily.
So what if you can't win? You shouldn't be able to get the reward? That's dumb. The rewards are fine, they just need a system that will eliminate afk players after they haven't moved in a while.
So what if you can't win? You shouldn't be able to get the reward? That's dumb. The rewards are fine, they just need a system that will eliminate afk players after they haven't moved in a while.
sitting at a node is in itself a capture or "waiting" to defend that node, if say... a rogue decided to sneek by everyone and ninja the last node, someone that "seems to be AFK" may actualy not be AFK.
_________
also to everyone that thinks putting time limits on activity will get "true PvP leachers" kicked this will NOT happen, because the leacher will "know" the new rule, and therefor move the mouse around while sitting in a corner instead.... makeing it so it doesn't get kicked. (they are obviously actually there since they must "click" to get in the frakking PvP match to start with.
_________
also to everyone that wants a vote kick option, all this does is allows Grefing, where groups would vote kick someone even if they was not leaching, simply because they didn't like the color of their boots.
A 60 second boot will still prevent most of the AFKers
THIS
and? I've had lag entering a map before, and when I FINALY got to see the screen, it had a box in my face saying "watrning you have been inactive for 10 minutes".... IDK about you, but I THINK almost everyone has a 60s lag while intering a map, that would meen, this would cause THE ENTIRE TEAM ON BOTH SIDES TO GET KICKED BEFORE THE SCREEN EVEN LOADS!!!
Totally agree. The rewards should be based on how much time you spend at a control point with a bonus to the winning team. If the objective is to control points, then reward that.
this my friend is a helpful post (also the post it's responding to)
awards based on the types of activity
damage, being at a node, any other objectives.
at least the leachers will not get as much, if any (seeing as if they start getting more they no longer are leaching)
Auto kicking after 2 mins of idle-ish behavior combined with Vote kicking would help a lot against individuals, groups of afk farmers could be reported then as I'm not so sure how to handle that automatically.
Also, the kicked person should automatically be replaced by a player in the queue, and that player would get a smaller reward then based on the amount of time he was necessary in the game.
I think those two things will fix PvP a lot, as it is already very enjoyable, but ruined by a bad queue/player system
bluemiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited May 2013
What about some kind of activity monitor?
If you're activity is below a certain amount, no glory and no count towards daily.
And maybe if they get a no activity enough, they are locked out of pvp for 24 hours?
are have a forum topic stickied for afk players? name and shame and then severally punish?
lol.. Trying to win 3 matches a day in the 50-59 tier would be nightmarish.. Couldn't even imagine the 60 bracket.. All those people who have been farming glory for PvP equips for days now will be tearing as$ right outta bodies for quite some time..
Should just be a timed kick, just like in the PvE side (15 min kick right?), make it like 30 seconds.. At least force them to jump around outside of the safe zone.. Drawing the enemy to attack you is still being a team player, even if you are ganked and killed over and over and over and over..
are have a forum topic stickied for afk players? name and shame and then severally punish?
People would just slam those who they lost a 1v1 against. That is why MMO forums never allow naming and shaming. It's too easy to abuse it for harassment and there is never proper "proof".
There is really no way to make people participate properly if they don't want to or have no fun. There is no system that can force a player to fight by the nodes, or fight to win. Instead of idling, people would instead just suicide or otherwise do things that make the game finish faster. I prefer positive methods. Like, rewarding good performance and participation more, or taking someone's gearscore into account when building groups. I think idling because of un-fun, heavily imbalanced team setups is more common than idling for the reward. But I may be naive here.
I haven't read the entire thread but I think this can be solved by changing how the PVP reward system works. If it's possible to make the rewards for winning significantly better than losing, I'm pretty sure this would make players want to actually compete instead of just going AFK, instead of going for an auto-kick feature which may harm the game much more so than it could help. Rewards seem to work better than punishments in my observation.
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited May 2013
The thread is only 6 pages.. That's not really a huge amount. The rewards are fine how they are. As someone pointed out why penalize the team with someone who's just starting to play PvP and isn't really sure how it works yet? I could see if there were separate queues for premade and random groups perhaps... Otherwise no not really. There are ways to fix the afk problem, or at least mitigate it, without changing the current reward structure.
OR you could make it so questing gave more XP and would Level someone FASTER then pvp. Also getting rid of the GearValue system would make people not abuse the glory they get for losing. Literally getting purple gear for nothing.
While your at it they could also add scaleable levels like GW2 seeing as I level faster then the content/dungeons I want to do.
how about, in pvp area's, and ONLY in pvp area's, make a 5-10 second inactivity logout timer.
if in pvp your doing 'nothing' for more than 5 seconds, your prob not pvping.
That doesn't stop someone from aiming towards the wall and putting something heavy on their T key. It's a bit incredible some of the lengths lazy people go through to not actually do anything.
Comments
Well for one thing that wastes our time. With the number of AFKers around I don't even see that as a valid response. They have said it's one of the things they are looking into so hopefully something will be put in place soon.
What the **** is "coz"?
And the suggestion to only reward the group that wins makes it even worse because then when you get stuck with a player like me in your group your chances are shot. No point in hurting the good players because they got stuck with some bad ones.
I.e
Assists,Kills,Deaths,Damage Done,Healing Done,Points Defend, Points Captured, Attempted Point Capture, Attempted Point Defense etc etc.
So if a afker is in fact afking and just standing around doing nothing that person won't get any points at all. While those that at least try would get points. Now am not saying that this is how people get more points or anything but a counter measure to afkers.
So even if they do come in and assist once they won't get anything if they don't keep doing it and helping out. So if they get one assist or kill then afk, they can still very well get zero points cause they aren't still doing anything.
I propose to the Devs the fix that was implemented in Rift during the farming events that were happening over there - especially over holiday events. These were PvE, but the concept is similar to what has already been mentioned above. If you do not move your character in 60 seconds time and you are in a team participating in the event, the server automatically removed you from the event/match.
The only other logical option is to make it so that you must win in order to get credit, which is the entire point anyway, after all, since winning is a form of completing the task at hand. PvPers just want to go in and shoot at stuff and have their rewards handed to them for nothing, thus so they can go brag and pretend they earned the gear/award somehow. Perhaps they should work for their rewards?
I hope this helps. Now to go see if the server is back up
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If you want to discuss arena pvp do it elsewhere.
Exactly. When you see people LFG AFK PvP, it's broke. These people are not PvP'ers. They are simply trying to farm easy RAD. It ruins PvP. Glory and RAD should be based on participation. Reward defending and taking over objectives.
The loser gets Glory. The main issue is the RAD farmers. I bet if you remove the PvP daily, PvP would improve drastically. And I'm not just complaining because I get stuck on teams with AFK'ers. It is boring as hell winning 1000 to 0.
Your misconception is that you win by killing, and the masses having that view is why my team always wins, I have a saying play to die not play to kill, kill and lose.
So my question is why should a game penalize players at all for playing(not afk not playing), and why should people you view as not smart be the same as others? Since clearly we have the same views towards ourselves and eachother - I am just giving the other side so that the devs may reconsider if they would add your aspect.
gear should be BoA although the amount of gear, price and reward dont support it, since you would only need to play for one day, likewise the gear cant sell since its so easy to obtain. The shop needs more items, more gear, more level range rewards, and either a higher price or a weaker gain. Ideally a higher cap since 25k is childsplay.
I don't agree you should minus deaths. I have routinely ended matches as a Rogue with a kill/death ratio of 10:1 or better. But I fully realize that doesn't make me the best player on my team, even when I top the chart at the end.
If I am not dying, that simply means that the enemy team chose to focus fire others before me. There have been other matches where I go 1:7, and that has nothing to do with how good or bad I'm playing during the match. If the other team chooses to target me, I will die, and there's nothing I can do about it (except running away, but that doesn't help my team, now does it?)
I'll also die more if I'm not standing beside a healer who is healing me. I'll die more if my team abandons me. I'll die in plenty of situations which do not reflect negatively on me as a player, and I should not be punished for that. That's just another thing that encourages selfish play.
I once was on a team which won the match 1000:370, and our team had a total of 10 kills. The other side had a total of something like 25 kills. We won by smartly using knockbacks and other area denial/crowd control to keep ourselves on the points, while keeping our enemies off the points. We didn't score many kills, but won the match handily. Stats like damage dealt, kills/assists, and number of points captured simply don't reflect how a winning team "must" operate. I mean, If I stand at mid (capture point 2) and successfully defend it all game, I will only have credit for 1 "point capture." Is that fair to me, the player who successfully fought off wave after wave of enemy assaults?
I could go on and on about strategies which do not require high kill counts, and which lead to a lot of deaths for one character. Like a Guardian Fighter who sneaks onto the capture point near the enemy spawn, and holds it as long as possible before dying. He might score a single capture, but he won't score any kills and is eventually guaranteed to die, but that can be a winning strategy. His job is to stand on that point for as long as possible, in order to both deny the enemy any points from that capture point, and also to hopefully draw 2 or 3 enemies to his location, so that the rest of his team can outnumber the enemies at the other 2 points.
Rewarding kills, assists, and captures (and I would add to that your team's score, wherever it is between 0 and 1000 when the match is over) with increased glory is fine, and I agree with you that it may help to entice players to help out their team instead of going AFK (playing selfishly is better than not playing at all.) It might even keep players fighting right until the bitter end, in an attempt to score a few more points in a losing effort. However, to deduct points for deaths is a huge mistake. It doesn't help entice AFKers to get more involved, but it does punish players who might otherwise be willing to sacrifice their personal stats to help out the team.
-Travail.
Totally agree. The rewards should be based on how much time you spend at a control point with a bonus to the winning team. If the objective is to control points, then reward that.
A 60 second boot will still prevent most of the AFKers
THIS
So what if you can't win? You shouldn't be able to get the reward? That's dumb. The rewards are fine, they just need a system that will eliminate afk players after they haven't moved in a while.
Not just spawn but hasn't moved in 30 seconds (first warning) then you get kicked at 60 seconds.
sitting at a node is in itself a capture or "waiting" to defend that node, if say... a rogue decided to sneek by everyone and ninja the last node, someone that "seems to be AFK" may actualy not be AFK.
_________
also to everyone that thinks putting time limits on activity will get "true PvP leachers" kicked this will NOT happen, because the leacher will "know" the new rule, and therefor move the mouse around while sitting in a corner instead.... makeing it so it doesn't get kicked. (they are obviously actually there since they must "click" to get in the frakking PvP match to start with.
_________
also to everyone that wants a vote kick option, all this does is allows Grefing, where groups would vote kick someone even if they was not leaching, simply because they didn't like the color of their boots.
and? I've had lag entering a map before, and when I FINALY got to see the screen, it had a box in my face saying "watrning you have been inactive for 10 minutes".... IDK about you, but I THINK almost everyone has a 60s lag while intering a map, that would meen, this would cause THE ENTIRE TEAM ON BOTH SIDES TO GET KICKED BEFORE THE SCREEN EVEN LOADS!!!
this my friend is a helpful post (also the post it's responding to)
awards based on the types of activity
damage, being at a node, any other objectives.
at least the leachers will not get as much, if any (seeing as if they start getting more they no longer are leaching)
Also, the kicked person should automatically be replaced by a player in the queue, and that player would get a smaller reward then based on the amount of time he was necessary in the game.
I think those two things will fix PvP a lot, as it is already very enjoyable, but ruined by a bad queue/player system
" 'cause" or, in its entirety, "because".
Lottie
If you're activity is below a certain amount, no glory and no count towards daily.
And maybe if they get a no activity enough, they are locked out of pvp for 24 hours?
are have a forum topic stickied for afk players? name and shame and then severally punish?
Should just be a timed kick, just like in the PvE side (15 min kick right?), make it like 30 seconds.. At least force them to jump around outside of the safe zone.. Drawing the enemy to attack you is still being a team player, even if you are ganked and killed over and over and over and over..
People would just slam those who they lost a 1v1 against. That is why MMO forums never allow naming and shaming. It's too easy to abuse it for harassment and there is never proper "proof".
There is really no way to make people participate properly if they don't want to or have no fun. There is no system that can force a player to fight by the nodes, or fight to win. Instead of idling, people would instead just suicide or otherwise do things that make the game finish faster. I prefer positive methods. Like, rewarding good performance and participation more, or taking someone's gearscore into account when building groups. I think idling because of un-fun, heavily imbalanced team setups is more common than idling for the reward. But I may be naive here.
While your at it they could also add scaleable levels like GW2 seeing as I level faster then the content/dungeons I want to do.
just make the Glory Gear Bind on Acquire. more than likely, most of the AFKers are people who just want the gear so they can Auction it.
if you can't Auction it. no reason to AFK for it. let the people who are actually going to use the gear fight for it.
if in pvp your doing 'nothing' for more than 5 seconds, your prob not pvping.
That doesn't stop someone from aiming towards the wall and putting something heavy on their T key. It's a bit incredible some of the lengths lazy people go through to not actually do anything.