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Long Time PvPer's Thoughts on Class Balance In PvP
bedroompunisher
Member Posts: 62
My First MMORPG was Dark Age of Camelot, and i've PvPed extensively on many others games. My favorites being Eve, DAoC, and Warhammer.
I've been PvPing in MMORPGs for about 9 years and have put a lot of thought into this sort of thing. I thought i'd share my thoughts for anyone who is considering PvPing more, or who is new and looking to roll a character that fills a specific role in PvP end-game.
The PvP Scaling buff appears to be broken as one levels up through brackets you can experience wild variations in effectiveness with identical gear, but these comments are regarding level 60 PvP, not before.
Let me preface by saying that this Game's Combat is very well-suit to PvP, really unique, and IMO a lot of fun.
The combat mechanics in this game - the crosshair, low latency (at least for me), and real-time action, makes it really unique and fun for PvP. (though i would argue the classes are too simple with too few abilities at their disposal - but i understand not everyone is a multitasking brainiac, it could be a little less button mashing diablo-esque)
Dodge mechanics bring some player reflex into the equation, not just an emphasis on strategy, multitasking, and general cognitive player ability, so that's pretty new to PvP in MMOs as well, at least done this well.
Class Balance is a bit of a problem, but not as bad as some people say
Rogues - A lot of people complain about rogues... and it's fair to an extent. Rogues are mainly just annoying because they usually equip 2 powers that can 2 shot most people, and a daily that nearly one shots most people. Remember, they cant do it all that often, so when you get one shot by them remember that insane burst is out of commission for 20 seconds, in the case of their powers, and longer for their daily.
From a 1v1 standpoint they basically have an I-WIN button, but from a group perspective their utility is much more useful. Namely the AOE disable (smoke bomb) circle that can really destroy a cleric, and everyone in their defense circle, for a few crucial seconds. I am regularly annoyed by rogues (on my team) that play the class as a one-trick-pony and never capitalize on any of their group utility.
Control wizards, on the other hand can do massive DPS, probably even more burst DPS than a rogue, from LONG RANGE. Not only are CWs more tanky than casters in ANY OTHER MMO. They get lots of CC, insane kiting abilities, and are relatively tanky. They're a glass cannon minus the glass and with most of the CC in the game. Fixing CWs would solve a lot of problems with other classes seeming lack-luster.
Great Weapon Fighters - Are not as bad at PvP as a lot of people think they are. GWFs put out lower numbers than rogues, but their damaging abilities are on shorter cooldowns. Consider lashing blade vs indomitable strike, they do comparable damage but have 20 second and 14 second cooldowns, respectively. So, GWFs, while a bit gimp, can still be effective in the right hands. But they definitely need help and playing one is a bit masochistic, if you have played a rogue or CW and know what they can do. In 1v1 or 2v1 or 2v2 fights over objectives dodges can really mean a great deal, because they effectively waste a power or daily CD of the enemy, and the fact that GWF has no dodge mechanic REALLY diminishes their ability to win short, small fights with no cleric support.
Guardian Fighters - Are a good bit stronger in PvP than GWFs, and probably are the most under rated PvP class. Unfortunately, they're more and more seldom invited to PvE epics so they're probably going to become even more rare in PvP. In PvP they have quite a few knockbacks, an aoe knock-up, and generally are amazing at peeling DPS off of clerics, holding objective points alone for long periods of time against large opposition, molesting clerics and knocking them out of defense circles for DPS to focus them down, etc. Just an overall great class for PvP if played well in a coordinated group. I'll admit I have less experience with GFs than the other classes so I may expand this section later as I think about them more.
Clerics - Are really good in PvP, but they could be A LOT better. They are seldom being played to their full potential, at least on mindflayer where i play, mainly because there aren't a lot of premades that effectively protect their clerics, yet. Their defense circle (AS) is hugely effective and they're too tanky, as has been shown by the fact that most epic groups are taking 2 clerics to tank in lieu of GFs. Clerics need to be less tanky and to have to rely more on the group to stay alive. (like a GF who uses group damage absorb and single target 50% damage debuff, and group members to knockdown/knockback DPS focusing the cleric.)
I propose they be given bigger heals, especially single target burst, and less self damage mitigation, perhaps, for one, by scaling down the effects of their defensive circle on themselves, but keeping it the way it is on other group members in the circle. This being said, I don't think they're that overpowered, and i wouldn't be heart broken if they stayed the way that they are because all it takes to kill one is an even moderately coordinated DPS assist, in most cases.
The One-Shot Problem: The capacity for people to nearly one-shot eachother with dailies, and otherwise, needs to be diminished. Some people have proposed a PvP HP buff of 200% or more, but i don't think this is a good idea because it just further punishes the classes that don't have as high at-will and power DPS. (GWFs and GFs) And, more importantly, makes clerics even more powerful by giving them more of a buffer to heal up their pals and time for all players to get into the cleric's defensive circle.
The best way to fix the one-shot problem is to simply scale down the damage of the offending abilities to more reasonable damage levels, at least for PvP. Instead of critting for 17-20k+ make them crit for approximately 14k, this would diminish the all-or-nothing damage mechanic and force players to work together if they want to kill a difficult target, instead of simply waiting for a rogue to come in with their daily up and destroy the enemy cleric or GF, with one ability.
TL;DR - the only class that i think needs a lot of help in PvP is GWF. Everything else can play their role very effectively. And the only class that really needs nerfed a bit is the CW. CW has too much range for being so relatively tanky and having such effective kiting/dodging abilities. If they scaled down the burst that CWs and rogues have, just a bit, they would remedy a lot of other problems as well.
The "Perfect" premade - A premade of 2CWs, 1GF, and 2 Clerics, and some strategy would do incredibly well in PvP matches. The GF and a cleric could probably hold the center objective almost indefinitely, if played well, and aided by a CW when rushed by 4 or 5 players of the other team for extra CC. Keeping objectives is the name of the game so the other cleric and 2 CWs could focus on capturing the other 2 objectives whenever abandoned. By perma capping/contesting the center objective, and fielding an effective duo/trio of huge CC, dps, and heals on at least one other, the group would maximize its point gaining potential.
I've been PvPing in MMORPGs for about 9 years and have put a lot of thought into this sort of thing. I thought i'd share my thoughts for anyone who is considering PvPing more, or who is new and looking to roll a character that fills a specific role in PvP end-game.
The PvP Scaling buff appears to be broken as one levels up through brackets you can experience wild variations in effectiveness with identical gear, but these comments are regarding level 60 PvP, not before.
Let me preface by saying that this Game's Combat is very well-suit to PvP, really unique, and IMO a lot of fun.
The combat mechanics in this game - the crosshair, low latency (at least for me), and real-time action, makes it really unique and fun for PvP. (though i would argue the classes are too simple with too few abilities at their disposal - but i understand not everyone is a multitasking brainiac, it could be a little less button mashing diablo-esque)
Dodge mechanics bring some player reflex into the equation, not just an emphasis on strategy, multitasking, and general cognitive player ability, so that's pretty new to PvP in MMOs as well, at least done this well.
Class Balance is a bit of a problem, but not as bad as some people say
Rogues - A lot of people complain about rogues... and it's fair to an extent. Rogues are mainly just annoying because they usually equip 2 powers that can 2 shot most people, and a daily that nearly one shots most people. Remember, they cant do it all that often, so when you get one shot by them remember that insane burst is out of commission for 20 seconds, in the case of their powers, and longer for their daily.
From a 1v1 standpoint they basically have an I-WIN button, but from a group perspective their utility is much more useful. Namely the AOE disable (smoke bomb) circle that can really destroy a cleric, and everyone in their defense circle, for a few crucial seconds. I am regularly annoyed by rogues (on my team) that play the class as a one-trick-pony and never capitalize on any of their group utility.
Control wizards, on the other hand can do massive DPS, probably even more burst DPS than a rogue, from LONG RANGE. Not only are CWs more tanky than casters in ANY OTHER MMO. They get lots of CC, insane kiting abilities, and are relatively tanky. They're a glass cannon minus the glass and with most of the CC in the game. Fixing CWs would solve a lot of problems with other classes seeming lack-luster.
Great Weapon Fighters - Are not as bad at PvP as a lot of people think they are. GWFs put out lower numbers than rogues, but their damaging abilities are on shorter cooldowns. Consider lashing blade vs indomitable strike, they do comparable damage but have 20 second and 14 second cooldowns, respectively. So, GWFs, while a bit gimp, can still be effective in the right hands. But they definitely need help and playing one is a bit masochistic, if you have played a rogue or CW and know what they can do. In 1v1 or 2v1 or 2v2 fights over objectives dodges can really mean a great deal, because they effectively waste a power or daily CD of the enemy, and the fact that GWF has no dodge mechanic REALLY diminishes their ability to win short, small fights with no cleric support.
Guardian Fighters - Are a good bit stronger in PvP than GWFs, and probably are the most under rated PvP class. Unfortunately, they're more and more seldom invited to PvE epics so they're probably going to become even more rare in PvP. In PvP they have quite a few knockbacks, an aoe knock-up, and generally are amazing at peeling DPS off of clerics, holding objective points alone for long periods of time against large opposition, molesting clerics and knocking them out of defense circles for DPS to focus them down, etc. Just an overall great class for PvP if played well in a coordinated group. I'll admit I have less experience with GFs than the other classes so I may expand this section later as I think about them more.
Clerics - Are really good in PvP, but they could be A LOT better. They are seldom being played to their full potential, at least on mindflayer where i play, mainly because there aren't a lot of premades that effectively protect their clerics, yet. Their defense circle (AS) is hugely effective and they're too tanky, as has been shown by the fact that most epic groups are taking 2 clerics to tank in lieu of GFs. Clerics need to be less tanky and to have to rely more on the group to stay alive. (like a GF who uses group damage absorb and single target 50% damage debuff, and group members to knockdown/knockback DPS focusing the cleric.)
I propose they be given bigger heals, especially single target burst, and less self damage mitigation, perhaps, for one, by scaling down the effects of their defensive circle on themselves, but keeping it the way it is on other group members in the circle. This being said, I don't think they're that overpowered, and i wouldn't be heart broken if they stayed the way that they are because all it takes to kill one is an even moderately coordinated DPS assist, in most cases.
The One-Shot Problem: The capacity for people to nearly one-shot eachother with dailies, and otherwise, needs to be diminished. Some people have proposed a PvP HP buff of 200% or more, but i don't think this is a good idea because it just further punishes the classes that don't have as high at-will and power DPS. (GWFs and GFs) And, more importantly, makes clerics even more powerful by giving them more of a buffer to heal up their pals and time for all players to get into the cleric's defensive circle.
The best way to fix the one-shot problem is to simply scale down the damage of the offending abilities to more reasonable damage levels, at least for PvP. Instead of critting for 17-20k+ make them crit for approximately 14k, this would diminish the all-or-nothing damage mechanic and force players to work together if they want to kill a difficult target, instead of simply waiting for a rogue to come in with their daily up and destroy the enemy cleric or GF, with one ability.
TL;DR - the only class that i think needs a lot of help in PvP is GWF. Everything else can play their role very effectively. And the only class that really needs nerfed a bit is the CW. CW has too much range for being so relatively tanky and having such effective kiting/dodging abilities. If they scaled down the burst that CWs and rogues have, just a bit, they would remedy a lot of other problems as well.
The "Perfect" premade - A premade of 2CWs, 1GF, and 2 Clerics, and some strategy would do incredibly well in PvP matches. The GF and a cleric could probably hold the center objective almost indefinitely, if played well, and aided by a CW when rushed by 4 or 5 players of the other team for extra CC. Keeping objectives is the name of the game so the other cleric and 2 CWs could focus on capturing the other 2 objectives whenever abandoned. By perma capping/contesting the center objective, and fielding an effective duo/trio of huge CC, dps, and heals on at least one other, the group would maximize its point gaining potential.
Post edited by bedroompunisher on
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Comments
Oh and I am a glass cannon. With all the glass, and an extra helping of CC (which is essentially what keeps me alive). If I CC poorly or hit the wrong targets, I'm dead. If I let melee get to close to me and they're CC proof, I'm dead. If I run into anything solo and there's 2 people there, I'm probably dead.
PvP in this game is ridiculously fast paced, dangerous, and I think it's awesome. Calling for nerfs never sits well with me, lol. It starts a trend or makes some abilities completely useless. I think bringing all classes up for balance to bring them equally in line is the best way to even the playing field.
There is no counter-play. Dodge mechanics are one thing if timed perfectly, but because many abilities have no activation time or warning, especially with latency, it's often more a case of luck and guessing the timing of your opponent than skill.
Additionally is how players are ranked and scored in PvP. The scoring seems very simplistic, with points only for kills, assists, and capturing points. There's nothing for damage mitigated, healing, time spent defending, etc. Scoring has just about nothing to do with actual teamwork or winning.
Overall I feel like PvP in this game is just something that's tacked on as an afterthought. Unfortunately the rewards are very tangible and not an afterthought at all. This is a problem.
I do fear this game is going to have its pvp ruined by CC like Warhammer online did. Especially when they implement larger pvp. Considering that most groups seem to consist mainly of rogues and wizards this could really be an issue in the longevity of the game.
Look at STO, terrible PVP and they continue to add differant stuff and stick two fingers up at pvp, PVP is a after thought.
We wont see open world pvp, large 50v50 battles, just silly little unbalanced 5v5 arenas.
You want PvP then take your monies and give it to devs that build a game for pvp, Neverwinter will never have what we wish for.
Im trying to like the quick light hearted pvp here and so far i do not find CW hard or OP at all, yea they hold me but they hardly hurt me much, GWF are tough when you meet a good one.
The only one i find is real trouble and needs sorting out in my eyes and experience is Rogues.
When I first go into this game there was no one queing for PvP because they thought it was a complete waste, since open beta there has been a pour of cries and whining coming in about balancing PvP and what people don't realize is, non of the classes in this game is suppose to be balanced.
Honestly as a CW, I wish they would lower our damage on some of our abilities and up our timers on our control stuff because I am starting to feel more and more like a dps arcane mage "people wanting you to go that route" instead of actually controlling things in the game (burning the bosses instead of controlling adds).
Once they put Ranged strikers in the game "Warlocks and Rangers" people will see what a striker is suppose to do. PvP, again in this game was a straight up after thought in order to get people to pay for all the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they have on the Zen market (and it has been a success).
I see people leaving and going back to their original game, may be picking up once other classes are released only to die again.
-Kymos
I don't really see a problem with people being stunlocked for a period of time. A group that works well together is going to stun/CC lock people and kill them with focused damage, this can be combated by a group that has a good cleric and CCers of their own. If you're saying CC should be removed from the game i would disagree because i think it adds an element of strategy and incentivizes team work. I think if you remove too much of the abilities that makes a group more than the sum of its members then we might as well be playing call of duty. (yes, i mean that in a bad way) So i didn't include that because i didn't think it was an issue that needed to be addressed.
I, and a lot of people i fight, use dodge effectively and regularly. It takes practice. Perhaps it's because i have a good internet connection but i havent experienced an iota of latency problems or lag. So i can't really talk about that as a problem, either.
I'm not all that concerned with the score at the end of a PvP match... best case scenario you get a worthless blue item for your contribution. And i actually like the fact that you score more for capturing points because the winning team gets more glory, and too many people want to show up and solo fight between objectives without contributing if that score incentive is removed even fewer people will want to fight on the battle objectives.
I'm not sure if it was an afterthought or not but it could use some tweaking to make it really fun. I also think that they need more varied and interesting maps in which to fight... also the one with all of the stone in the castle-like area's battle objectives are far too close together and the spawns are inconveniently placed.
Characters capable of teleporting up onto the ramparts above objectives, or doing ranged damage also greatly disproportionately benefit from there being places to attack from above the objectives, which i think is a design flaw.
So, just because you don't like something, everyone who wants to enjoy it has an invalid opinion?
This game is DnD like world of warcraft is pen and paper warhammer, in aesthetic terms only. When things cross gaming genres they take on new characteristics, so that argument is old and bad. It might make some sense arguing that DDO was dungeons and dragons and therefore didn't support real PvP, because that game actually copied table-top DnD in a big way, but Neverwinter is far from DnD in a lot of ways. Neverwinter is a conventional MMO with DnD flavor.
Yeah, but no one else can look super cool with a giant axe, so there's that. :P Try rolling a GF if you really despise rogue and mage roles (like me), they're tons of fun and can really annoy the opposing side in PvP. Just cross your fingers and hope a future patch makes them less useless in epic dungeons.
Specifically I wanted to address some things you've said. CW do ALOT of damage just by pressing three or four buttons. They don't need their Daily to kill someone no contest. The same is true about TRs, their basic encounter DPS is so large they don't need their Daily, but can use it as well to ensure a second kill. Between these two, any class can be killed without so much as a chance to fight back. That includes Clerics. On my CW, I just press a few buttons and the cleric is almost dead, add in some Magic Missile spam at close range and he's either dead or just about dead. When my CDs come back up, its game over. No cleric survives a second wave of encounter abilities.
GWF is just plain terrible. IDC if they can stunlock someone from 100-0, they can't do anything else until their CDs come back up other than run away, die trying to do laughable at will damage, or run through the enemy to draw them away from the node. Because GWF can't do anything without his CDs, he's MUCH weaker than TR of CW who can not only kill a target with their CDs, but also contribute to pressure damage while they wait for them to come back up.
Clerics are not the end of the world and I get a little bit of a laugh when people think that no cleric means no win. If CW and TR can drop a cleric in no time flat, then the cleric is essentially deadweight because he's not going to kill anyone during his uptime. I've been in plenty of battle where I just repeatedly kill the cleric and make him completely worthless, resulting in a win. So no, no need to nerf clerics. In fact, what's funny is that clerics tend to cause a team to play in a sedentary manner. They try to control a single node in the middle at the cost of their close node. Anytime I see clerics and my team isn't playing smart (ie: streaming into the 5 man camp at mid and dying instantly) I just go around and cap the undefended node. Half the time they're so busy farming noobs, they don't even notice they're losing.
I find myself wondering what class OP plays seeing as how he chose to say TR are fine, CW and Cleric need nerf. Or did I read that wrong?
I never said anyone needed their daily to do a lot of damage. And I also said that CW have more burst potential than TR so you're just repeating me and imagining there's a disagreement.
I never said Clerics were OP, in fact i said i wouldn't mind if they weren't tweaked, but they might be able to use a little tweaking. They're low on the priority list for balancing.
I'm sorry but i'm talking about balance in conditions where the classes are being played to their full potential, not anecdotes where you managed to own someone in pug v pug. If a GF is using group damage absorb, debuff on you, the cleric works to stay in defense circle, and the other team's CW(s) are on the ball to CC peel big DPSers, you're not going to go around insta pwning clerics.
Clerics in pvp are crucial, overpowered and ultimately irreplaceable. Rogues have high burst, but every team comp needs an assassin, the only full burst they have includes their daily. GWF's stomp all over Rogues and CW's if played correctly. GF's can hold nodes all day with the correct support while also being able to stunlock essentially anyone. CW's bring the entire game together. Have you tried sitting on a node with comp that contains two clerics? A cw is absolutely necessary in these situations. The main problem with your post is that you're comparing every class in the game in a 1v1 scenario aside from a few exceptions. This is DnD, it is not meant to be like every other mmo where clerics wear cloth and wizards are impossibly squishy. The true ability to win in pvp lies in teamwork in all aspects.
The reason pvp is so impressive in this game is because every class has their own 'OP' kits and combos. This is how pvp is meant to be.
Everyone needs an open mind when playing and responding to aspects of the game. If this was the first MMO ever released, these complaint threads would never arise.
I have a hard time seeing that happen. TTK 6 seconds. Cleric is still useless. About the only way to mitigate instant cleric deaths (or any instant deaths) is to have the cleric stand further back, BUT then that means the opposing team can stand on the node and cap easier.
That said, I wish they would do something to make the pvp more fun, like the way it was while leveling. Oh well... here's to wishing. Bunch of folks running around instant killing each other isn't what I was looking for here.
As for CW having more burst, idk about that. Seems about even. TR without his daily can AoE daze and then almost just use his at-will to rip a person apart, then use his invincibility ability to continue the assault with whatever other two encounter abilities he's got slotted. When I play my CW, its almost impossible to survive that. Only thing that saves me is intervention by another player pushing the TR away. So I would never say that a CW is somehow tanky. Sure they can blink all over the place and do pressure damage while delaying for their CDs to come back up, but as I explained earlier, TR that sneaks up on a CW is complete and undeniable win.
I do find it interesting that when speaking about PvP, we pretty much ignore GF and GWF when it comes to killing.
I never implied or overtly express that i had "amazing credentials", i only included my gaming history to give people an idea of my perspective.
Notice in my comments i gave examples and reasons for my arguments. I'm not sure how i can respond to something stated so matter-of-factly, in a form that doesn't function as a rebuttal, and with no supporting data or logic.
I mentioned 1v1 and group vs group. And in a game where keeping objectives is key and 2v2, 2v1, and 1v1 routinely decides whether that objective is taken or not, I think the way classes hold up in these scenarios is more important than in most games where fights tend to be larger.
Over Powered implies relative strength, if everyone has it, then it isn't overpowered. Yes, every class when played well can do a pretty good job. But i think you'll find a well-played rogue/gf/cw/cleric bring distinct advantages to a group, and GWFs don't really tank or CC as well as GFs, and don't really melee dps quite as well as rogues. A good GWF can kill a bunch of bad rogues, or get all-crits during rogue's cooldowns, but it doesn't change this fact.
This isn't a complaint thread. Perfection doesn't exist, otherwise they'd never have to patch the game, so giving feedback and having discussions are reasonable things to do.
I wouldn't go so far as to say PvP in this game is impressive. Its like playing with CoD weapons in a fantasy setting, nobody signed up for this system where everyone go around headshoting everyone or using an RPG to blow everyone up. TTK is WAY too fast. When TTK isn't too fast, people are getting controlled to death. Where's the back and forth? Where's the actual fantasy style fighting where players get to feel more heroic and less like snipers and backstabbers?
I think what he means is that everyone, even GF can kill someone no contest under the right conditions. Its just not the combat style people who play fantasy games expect in PvP. If we wanted a simulator that allowed us to electrocute each other with a single glance, we wouldn't be playing this game. We came here for fantasy style fighting that makes the player feel like a hero, not a backstabber or sniper that instantly ruins the other player CoD style.
Yes, TRs do well against CWs solo, and if a half decent CW and a half decent rogue are allowed to unload on a cleric at the same time the cleric is going to die. But i'm pretty sure i already said that. I think we mostly agree and are just addressing different things. I don't really think it's important to state that a cleric with no group support is going to die easily to dps assists.
Nothing is tanky vs TR burst or CW burst, that's why i said relatively tanky, implying just as tanky as other DPSers.
Yeah, i don't like all-or-nothing mechanics where people can unload and get a free kill, either. And the fact that you respawn and you're basically on top of the objective already pretty much turns the game into an objective capturing contest to see who can sneak them more effectively... it's not ideal. But i think my suggestions would help to fix it a bit. Not that i expect cryptic to heed them, i just like having the discussion.
Yeah this is obscenely not true. I see this thread was nothing more than a "nerf Wizards" thread disguised as some objective post about what the OP views as balanced classes int he game right now. But this, this is just so beyond the realm of reality, I dont know where to begin.
Unfortunately i think scaling down all encounter and daily damage would just make GWF/GF damage even worse and rogues/cws would still kill really quickly due to the fact that they overkill with their crits fairly often, and by fairly large amounts. I think the damage on some rogue and CW abilities just needs to be toned down a bit in PvP. I like the 50% of HP cap idea.
You caught me. I wrote a 1300 word post after spending 50+ hours PvPing to sneakily convince everyone that CWs are OP. And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling monarrch.
Most times when i join a pvp match if i can catch somone by surprise with either the CW or TR i can instagib them with 0 effort with or without my dailies, If they see me coming its usually who cc's who 1st or who has there daily if its 1v1.
I just dont find that kind of pvp so fun killing people in less than 5 seconds, I prefer when skill is involved not 1 shot combo to win.
Just my two cents:)
But I'm wondering how much difference using different tactics makes. With only 5 options, if I choose to maximize damage, I loose out on the extra stealth stuff. I guess that's the same for other classes. I'm not familiar enough with the skills, but isn't this also a kind of balancing? You can swap them out as need be.
Well... like i said i don't really think rogues are relatively over powered, i just think there are some abilities that provide burst damage that is impossible to combat and that, in my opinion, is a problem.
I play a CW, and I have to agree that we have some serious survivability. I run with RoE tabbed, then chill, entanglement, and push, and it is really hard to die. I die, certainly, but 90% of my deaths are operator error or deliberate decisions.
The problem I have with your post is that those 10% of deaths are due to the damage spikes you want to get rid of. Without the huge TR or CW dps spikes, CWs would take three focused opponents to take down in any reasonable period of time (or two focused CWs doing a decent cc cycle). Unless you are suggesting that CWs not only take a damage nerf, but also a HP nerf, so that the spikes are there relatively... but only for CWs.
In which case... fu. :-) And TRs should take one as well. Then queue screaming.
Almost everything is counterable at the mo just sadly most ppl dont have the abilities swapped in for when things happen. ./shrug