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Can you please make it so that only classes that can equip an item get to roll need?

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  • lordhordelordhorde Member Posts: 57
    edited May 2013
    elessym wrote: »
    What do you do if an instance has no loot for your class? I don't mean that nothing drops on that run, I mean if there's no possibility of anything dropping for your class because there's nothing in the loot tables?

    All instances have loot for every class. But to answer your question, if it didn`t ,I wouldn`t do that instance unless I was helping a friend.
  • tickledpinkstickledpinks Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 276 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    If you want an Item and it's not class specific..roll NEED. If it is class specific and that class is not in your group and you want that item..roll NEED.If someone rolls NEED on an item that's class specific on a class that is in your group(and they're not that class)..make sure their name is well published.
  • natejam101natejam101 Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    If you want an Item and it's not class specific..roll Need. If it is class specific and that class is not in your group and you want that item..roll need.If someone rolls need on an item that's class specific on a class that is in your group(and they're not that class)..make sure their name is well published.

    Thats the problem..items that do not belong to the class rolling need on should not be rolled need on by said player just because they "want" the item to sell for their own profit. The only people that should even see the need option are the people playing the class that the item is made for. period.
    ASUS P8Z68 V-Pro Gen3 mobo, Intel i7 2600k, 32gb DDR3 G-Skill Ripjaws, 500gb SSD, 2TB HDD, Geforce GTX 690 x2 Sli, 1200 watt Thermaltake modular PS, Thermaltake gaming tower.
  • elessymelessym Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    lordhorde wrote: »
    All instances have loot for every class.

    I'm not so sure - certainly the drop rate of loot (above green, anyway), seems extremely unbalanced with regards to class.
    But to answer your question, if it didn`t ,I wouldn`t do that instance unless I was helping a friend.

    I think that would be most people's position. This is why the "Need only on class" idea is dangerous. If instances get a reputation, even if unjustified, for not dropping for certain classes, those classes simply won't run them. (Unless helping out guild/friends). Which means those instances will become un-PuGable.

    Now maybe the people in this thread don't care about that, but Cryptic should.

    Cryptic has said they're working on it. Let's hope they come up with a better idea than "Need on class."
    "Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
  • martianmanrapermartianmanraper Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 61
    edited May 2013
    Yeah I've been in countless groups where the first few rolls I see usually one person starting to roll need. I wait a little, see if he/she continues and sure enough the person's rolling need on everything. I then tell the group to just start rolling need on everything so this piece of garbage doesn't get everything. Many a blue rogue item has been lost to wizards and fighters. Some people are just lame.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • lordhordelordhorde Member Posts: 57
    edited May 2013
    elessym wrote: »
    I'm not so sure - certainly the drop rate of loot (above green, anyway), seems extremely unbalanced with regards to class.



    I think that would be most people's position. This is why the "Need only on class" idea is dangerous. If instances get a reputation, even if unjustified, for not dropping for certain classes, those classes simply won't run them. (Unless helping out guild/friends). Which means those instances will become un-PuGable.

    Now maybe the people in this thread don't care about that, but Cryptic should.

    Cryptic has said they're working on it. Let's hope they come up with a better idea than "Need on class."

    Well, when you hit the K button and examine every dungeon it says what items it has a chance of dropping. I am guessing it`s classwide for that item. I think they did it that way so people wouldn`t get stuck doing dungeons with no chance at getting useable gear for themselves. That is one thing they did right. I`ve done most of the req 8300 dungeons and there is always at least one thing that drops that is useable by all so it`s not a complete waste of time.
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    lordhorde wrote: »
    Well, when you hit the K button and examine every dungeon it says what items it has a chance of dropping. I am guessing it`s classwide for that item. I think they did it that way so people wouldn`t get stuck doing dungeons with no chance at getting useable gear for themselves. That is one thing they did right. I`ve done most of the req 8300 dungeons and there is always at least one thing that drops that is useable by all so it`s not a complete waste of time.

    Thats now. What happens 6 to 8 months from now when we get a few more classes added. Say you get 5 to 10 decent drops on average in a typical dungeon. With only 5 classes odds are decent that youll see something for your class drop at least once. Those odds get a bunch more dismal, once you adjust for more classes.

    And I don't expect Cryptic to adjust the drop rates to compensate for the diluted odds.

    The end result will be a near future where doing a run can net you nothing. Something to consider.
  • tickledpinkstickledpinks Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 276 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    natejam101 wrote: »
    Thats the problem..items that do not belong to the class rolling need on should not be rolled need on by said player just because they "want" the item to sell for their own profit. The only people that should even see the need option are the people playing the class that the item is made for. period.

    Well this is good in theory..but..you will find dungeons less run because mad dragon bosses drop a GWF chest every single time no if s ands or buts...so..if you don't have a GWF in group you are killing the boss to simply get passed him.I agree that something should be set in place to protect people in group..but on that same note if that class is not in group all players should be given the option to roll for it.
  • jonnyregjonnyreg Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    My big problem with the looting system is that so much of the gear drops are unidentified. How are you even supposed to know if you need it or not.
  • spacejewspacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    I'm not surprised at all that a game that puts heavy emphasis on earning AD would result in people doing anything they can, including <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over strangers on the internet, to gain an advantage that saves them actual dollars in the real world.

    I mean seriously, if you walk out of a dungeon with items that are worth a ton of AD on the market that saves you how many skirmishes or dailies? <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over other people in dungeons could save you days of grinding. I hate the system, but that's why I'm quitting as soon as ESO comes out. Even if it's a steaming pile it will be better than a cash grab. Until then, since this is F2P it's a title all of my static gaming group can agree on until there's a better title.

    I don't think anyone is planning on making Neverwinter their staple MMO of choice. Everyone is counting time or trying it out while taking a break from better titles.

    I mean seriously, seven abilities and a heavy time or money investment for just a respec of poorly described feats and powers? Yeah, this has 'long term' written all over it. /sarcasm
    MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
  • isopointisopoint Member Posts: 193 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    natejam101 wrote: »
    Thats the problem..items that do not belong to the class rolling need on should not be rolled need on by said player just because they "want" the item to sell for their own profit. The only people that should even see the need option are the people playing the class that the item is made for. period.

    If they already have the item then they don't need it which is why that doesn't work because items are boe.
  • torskaldrtorskaldr Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    h2oratty wrote: »
    This is on a list of things to address.

    What are the options? It would really be a bummer if people could only roll on their own class items and then be able to turn around and sell that for AD on the auction house.

    If other classes are going to be shut out from rolling on good items then dungeon gear should be bind on pickup.

    If the rolls are going to be open for everyone then shifting roll/pass makes more sense.

    The best option would be to have a system like GW2 where everyone gets rewarded and can trade after the battle.
  • lordhordelordhorde Member Posts: 57
    edited May 2013
    sockmunkey wrote: »
    Thats now. What happens 6 to 8 months from now when we get a few more classes added. Say you get 5 to 10 decent drops on average in a typical dungeon. With only 5 classes odds are decent that youll see something for your class drop at least once. Those odds get a bunch more dismal, once you adjust for more classes.

    And I don't expect Cryptic to adjust the drop rates to compensate for the diluted odds.

    The end result will be a near future where doing a run can net you nothing. Something to consider.

    The odds are already dismal now that you`ll see a class item from a dungeon and I already net nothing because I spend more on potions and repair kits then I make in a dungeon run. That`s why it sucks when you finally do see a class drop that would be an upgrade, you got people who can`t use it as competition for your drop. All because they don`t want walk away emptyhanded because they feel they deserve the class item they can`t use more then me.
  • spacejewspacejew Member Posts: 1,044 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Why not let a class get repeat drops and sell them? It satisfies all the main requirements. You're guaranteed to get your class items if you're the only member of that class on a team, and you get items to sell on the AH if you have it. Everyone gets that advantage, so it's not really an advantage. If you're really unlucky you're still up the creek without a paddle, but at least you don't see one of your items drop and lose out to someone that doesn't even theoretically 'need' it. You also could 'greed' on your class items if you're feeling generous, or pass altogether if you're a saint.

    It's a F2P title, and the way they've instituted their currencies means there's an inherent real money reason to roll 'need' on every single thing all the time. No amount of 'community' is going to fix a constant onslaught of new players that don't want to pay cash and who are totally willing to screw over temporary team mates to gain that advantage. It's human nature and economics all rolled into one.

    The current system is broken if you PUG at all. The only solution is guild-only runs or play with a group of real life friends. Maybe that's a good enough solution or maybe it isn't, but it means that if you're in a PUG with strangers you should always need because it's the only guarantee that you personally will not be screwed over. Even if someone passes on every piece of green gear, if they need on your blue or purple drop that's all that really matters. Even if you kick them afterwards, you're still screwed. (If they win the need roll, that is. It's a 50-50 chance.)

    I guess it just matters if you think two in the bush is better than one in the hand.
    MoF/Thaum CW SS/Thaum CW IV/Protector GF SW/Combat HR SM/Destroyer GWF WK/Executioner TR DO/Faithful DC
  • bulldoggbulldogg Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Well this one issue alone has filled my ignore list for sure. Im only 46 now and every single dungeon i have run every single blue thats dropped for my CLASS SPECIFIC item has been won by either a cleric or wizzy and then when you say Dude come on ...they ignore and pop from the group. Yes I know every game is gonna be full of asshats that do it but its a very simple thing to fix. Just last night i ran 4 runs to get a specific dagger to drop and yep it dropped all 4 times...Cleric took it 3 times and wizzy the other and all three Rogues in group are like WTH and of course without even finishing dungeon clerics go poof and gone...one even had the balls to say for 200k AD its yours...many many a FTP game has been ruined for very seemingly small things..this is one of those things...
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    lordhorde wrote: »
    The odds are already dismal now that you`ll see a class item from a dungeon and I already net nothing because I spend more on potions and repair kits then I make in a dungeon run. That`s why it sucks when you finally do see a class drop that would be an upgrade, you got people who can`t use it as competition for your drop. All because they don`t want walk away emptyhanded because they feel they deserve the class item they can`t use more then me.

    This is why the whole need/greed system sucks.

    It is the very definition of unfair and random. Going back to my example of an average run with 5 to 10 decent drops. Now with five classes a drop rate like that would average one to two class drops a run. On the surface that seems fair. At least for Tanks and Healers. But what about classes that typically double up...like DPS.

    Two tanks is odd for a group. Two healers, same deal. Two rogues or GWFs well, thats fairly typical. So. you are already starting off with half the odds of anyone else in the group simply because of a play style choice. So a rogue item drops they have to fight it out. But a cleric item drops, In the same group, who did the same work and effort. Gets the item without a second question. All because of randomness and a play style choice.

    Now we start mucking up the odds a bit more by expanding the classes. Assume, for example, eight classes fighting the random number generator for the same 5 to 10 drops. You'll end up with a situation where some might get more then one drop, while some might not get anything at all. Same group, same effort, widely different outcomes.

    Its pretty clear the entire economy of the game is centered around gear trading to entice AD and zen sales. No changes to the loot system is going to change that core mechanic. The need/greed system is really a poor fit to this. There is no way to make it fair. Loot simply needs to be assigned randomly to each person so that everyone gains something at the end of the run. Or else we will continue to see topics like this no matter the eventual fix.
  • sasheriasasheria Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bulldogg wrote: »
    Well this one issue alone has filled my ignore list for sure. Im only 46 now and every single dungeon i have run every single blue thats dropped for my CLASS SPECIFIC item has been won by either a cleric or wizzy and then when you say Dude come on ...they ignore and pop from the group. Yes I know every game is gonna be full of asshats that do it but its a very simple thing to fix. Just last night i ran 4 runs to get a specific dagger to drop and yep it dropped all 4 times...Cleric took it 3 times and wizzy the other and all three Rogues in group are like WTH and of course without even finishing dungeon clerics go poof and gone...one even had the balls to say for 200k AD its yours...many many a FTP game has been ruined for very seemingly small things..this is one of those things...

    That is what will happen when you can sell drops for AH (I blame the auction house) if it only sold for gold, then more than likely MANY random players will probably roll for Greed instead of NEED.

    But since AD CAN be converted into Zen, Greed override random stranger's need. That is human nature (sadly) the only way to avoid it is to join a guild with like mind that will share with each other.

    200k AD at 450 conversion rate = 444 zen. which is around 3 keys. (well almost)
    To grow old is inevitable, to grow up is optional.
    Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
  • sasheriasasheria Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    sockmunkey wrote: »
    This is why the whole need/greed system sucks.

    It is the very definition of unfair and random. Going back to my example of an average run with 5 to 10 decent drops. Now with five classes a drop rate like that would average one to two class drops a run. On the surface that seems fair. At least for Tanks and Healers. But what about classes that typically double up...like DPS.

    Two tanks is odd for a group. Two healers, same deal. Two rogues or GWFs well, thats fairly typical. So. you are already starting off with half the odds of anyone else in the group simply because of a play style choice. So a rogue item drops they have to fight it out. But a cleric item drops, In the same group, who did the same work and effort. Gets the item without a second question. All because of randomness and a play style choice.

    Now we start mucking up the odds a bit more by expanding the classes. Assume, for example, eight classes fighting the random number generator for the same 5 to 10 drops. You'll end up with a situation where some might get more then one drop, while some might not get anything at all. Same group, same effort, widely different outcomes.

    Its pretty clear the entire economy of the game is centered around gear trading to entice AD and zen sales. No changes to the loot system is going to change that core mechanic. The need/greed system is really a poor fit to this. There is no way to make it fair. Loot simply needs to be assigned randomly to each person so that everyone gains something at the end of the run. Or else we will continue to see topics like this no matter the eventual fix.

    I totally agree. The loot might as well assign to random person in the group (or round robin) since they are BoE, players can trade within their group (if the other have the item they want)

    Another method (which use in other MMO) are token system where you earn a token when you complete an instance run AND you can turn in X token for loot (but most of those are BoP and rarely tradable, but I guess you could make it BoE to keep in line with all the other items and entice more AD/Zen shopper.
    To grow old is inevitable, to grow up is optional.
    Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
  • pilf3rpilf3r Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    What would be really great is that drops fall individual for each person, like chests in DDO. Quite frankly in a random pug if peeps start needing on everything instead of going by the groups class priorites they are just being greedy a-holes.

    If you want to avoid the whole moral debate they should have just made drops specific to each person with an option of letting you put it up for a roll if you want to.

    This system they have here is was installed for the very same reason they disabled camera scrolling during gameplay, for immersion. When peeps start needing on everything that is simply defeating the whole purpose of the system so why keep it?

    If they did this for immersion reasons and peeps are getting around that by needing on everything and that was not what the devs intended then peeps that do this are borderline exploiting.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Neverwinter Thieves Guild
  • zahinderzahinder Member Posts: 897 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    They should just make everything need/pass unless you are in a premade group and change the option.

    Of course, what they should really REALLY do is have drops per character and not argue over gear at all. People can then dicker over trades as they go on an even footing.
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
  • therealtedtherealted Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    zahinder wrote: »
    They should just make everything need/pass unless you are in a premade group and change the option.
    It used to be Want/Pass years ago (and in another MMO of course). The Need button was added for exactly the reason that people are complaining now - people were hitting Want on items their class couldn't really use. That's why I'm skeptical of any "fixes" to the NGP system.
    Of course, what they should really REALLY do is have drops per character and not argue over gear at all. People can then dicker over trades as they go on an even footing.
    Yep, works great in the games that have that setup.
    ____________________

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  • uxvorastrixuxvorastrix Member Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    A Need / Greed / Pass system is by default - broken. Expecting that players of any age from any where in the world are suddenly going to do anything other than click "need" is ludicrous. I've played other PWE F2P games, and at first I too complained about people "needing" everything.

    But the more you think about it, the only fair way to distribute loot is for everyone to click need. Then it is randomly determined. If you don't want something, click "pass". If you don't care whether you get it or not, click "greed". Otherwise, always click "need" unless you're playing with a group of real life friends that you trust.

    Don't have to like it, but that's the way it is.

    A better idea would be to completely get rid of the whole need / greed / pass choice to begin with.
    D&D DM/Player since 1982 - all versions except the despised 4e
  • zahinderzahinder Member Posts: 897 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    N/G/P is a great shorthand for friends, when you really don't have much time to dink around over every drop.
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
  • diogene0diogene0 Member Posts: 2,894 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I don't have any issue with rolling need on everything, if people do it i'll do it too, and i'll sell the epic loots to buy the loots i didn't get. It's a free to play game and unfortunately you can sell the gear for diamonds, which is like RL time/money. It's just going to happen any time to anyone. Just roll need. Who cares?

    Rolling need on everything is also the best way to share the loots. Why would you get the 100k diamonds items everyone wants because you have the appropriate class?
  • lordhordelordhorde Member Posts: 57
    edited May 2013
    diogene0 wrote: »
    I don't have any issue with rolling need on everything, if people do it i'll do it too, and i'll sell the epic loots to buy the loots i didn't get. It's a free to play game and unfortunately you can sell the gear for diamonds, which is like RL time/money. It's just going to happen any time to anyone. Just roll need. Who cares?

    Rolling need on everything is also the best way to share the loots. Why would you get the 100k diamonds items everyone wants because you have the appropriate class?


    Because those 100k diamond items that you want to sell, I want to equip and use. That is the whole point of running the dungeons, to get drops for your class, not roll on everything and selling it. I`ll be damned if I`m going to run a dungeon just so I can sell the drops to get what I really want.

    Make everything lore/no trade and disable the auction house and you`ll get the nicest groups with the most respectful players you`ve ever gamed with from a pug.
  • bridgemongerbridgemonger Member Posts: 194 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013

    But the more you think about it, the only fair way to distribute loot is for everyone to click need.
    Wow, just wow.

    it's really easy to tell whom all the sellers are in this thread.
    60cw 51tr 16dc 5gf
  • sockmunkeysockmunkey Member Posts: 4,622 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    lordhorde wrote: »
    Because those 100k diamond items that you want to sell, I want to equip and use. That is the whole point of running the dungeons, to get drops for your class, not roll on everything and selling it.

    And what do you think the point if getting the diamonds are? Its not to swim around in like Scrooge MacDuck. Its to buy gear!

    Isnt is better to be able to earn enough diamonds to buy the gear you want. In a reasonable number of runs. As opposed to a totally random system that might take dozens if not hundreds of runs. To drop the exact item you might want?
  • bridgemongerbridgemonger Member Posts: 194 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    sockmunkey wrote: »
    And what do you think the point if getting the diamonds are? Its not to swim around in like Scrooge MacDuck. Its to buy gear!

    Isnt is better to be able to earn enough diamonds to buy the gear you want. In a reasonable number of runs. As opposed to a totally random system that might take dozens if not hundreds of runs. To drop the exact item you might want?

    alignment=chaotic evil.

    dozens or hundreds because of those aligned with you.
    60cw 51tr 16dc 5gf
  • calaminthacalamintha Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    therealted wrote: »
    It used to be Want/Pass years ago (and in another MMO of course). The Need button was added for exactly the reason that people are complaining now - people were hitting Want on items their class couldn't really use. That's why I'm skeptical of any "fixes" to the NGP system.

    You'd only pass if you don't have space or the item is practically worthless.
  • sparhawksparhawk Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    h2oratty wrote: »
    This is on a list of things to address.

    I'd strongly suggest changing it to individual loot drops for everyone and dropping the archaic die roll system all together.
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