alopexiaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 16
edited May 2013
I am not excusing anything, there are reasons why certain trends exist and will always exist. That is a fact. Unless you somehow manage to mutate human species.
Being a powerful player in game does not make you a better mate, but the reason why people like being powerful is rooted in the principal of mate selection.
Anyways, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, arguing in this case will not solve any issues. My point remains though, all these discussions have their time and place and fantasy games are not one of them.
Oh this thread. It's painful to browse. I thank steampunky and ladydwarf for being so enlightening to read though !
The poster complaining about "real sexism" made me laugh out loud. There are people in this thread thinking less armor on female characters is normal, or male characters walking without pants would be creepy but female would be okay.
That means the standard babe fantasy is the norm. People don't question it because, why would they do that, it's been seen everywhere, surely it's normal.
I don't call it feminism, it's more like awareness.
I'm all for options, I actually take my shirt off depending on my armor. But the people crying out for options do not seem like they would do it for games where people are asking for toned down gear on female toons.
I'm 'fraid the option to hide shirt/pants would translate into everyone and their mother hiding it.
In a bit tyrannic move, I prefer the actual option where people who want no shirt have to lose a few stats, because it means they really want to have that look (on both male and female), rather than it being the default.
You're confusing causation for correlation. Being a powerful spellcaster has nothing to do with being a strong mate. Being a powerful healer has nothing to do with being a strong mate. Those are examples of Power Fantasy as well.
Again, you're trying to excuse sexism through biology. It's still a False Equivalence.
And Kharnis: If feeling Powerful makes you feel Sexy: Go for it. But I highly doubt Calvin thought of himself as Sexy when he fantasized about fighting aliens in the place of his schoolteachers.
-Rachel-
What does a comic about a boy with an overactive imagination have to do with this argument?
Okay, let's see if this will work for you. You brought up Superman earlier as a classic example of Power Fantasy. How is it that you don't see the obvious Sexual Fantasy in that? Are you trying to tell me that you don't see why teenage boys are drawn (no pun intended) to a character who, as Clark Kent, is a milquetoast, but as soon as he takes off his clothes...
I want you to go through the list of all the actors and other celebrities who have been considered the sex symbols for women over the last ten years. You'll see names like George Clooney. Brad Pitt. Gerard Butler. Matthew McConnaughey. Vin Diesel. Dwayne Johnson. Taylor Lautner. Matt Damon. Ben Affleck. Hugh Jackman. David Beckham. Dwayne Johnson. Ryan Reynolds.
Are you noticing a trend? They're all alpha males, or portray alpha males, and they all have zero body fat. Every single one of these men were lusted after by women all over the world. Powerful is sexy to women, and being powerful is being sexy to men.
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tabris82Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
The error her might have been the OP refering to bikini armor - that would imply the desire for skin showing on female models *only*.
I for one would love to be able to hide the undershirt on my male half-orc rogue, using the Cloak Tower armor, giving him a more of a barbarian/savage look. In this class, the shirt is just a piece of clothing, not chainmail or anything, serving almost no purpose on a "real" fight.
Having a few more distinct models for the shirt would quelch this need. I did not see the lvl 60 pants and shirt though, so there might be hope. But for lower level rogues, its just a lame rag - that, if i am unable to upgrade, i would rather hide.
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xhritMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'll be following her on out of here. I've made my points, I've rebutted every repeated "Hole Poking" attempt. I even came to agree with someone on an equitable solution in the form of a "Only I can see" hiding ability.
Ya'll enjoy yourselves.
-Rachel-
Thanks, we will.
To quote my gf, "I wish this game had cute outfits, like Aion."
This most hilarious thing about this thread is that the armor design is already there. It's kind of what I was trying to make a point of to begin with. Several armor sets have designs that would bare some flesh; but it ends up getting covered in chainmail. If you wanted an argument, make your own thread regarding how armor designs are too sexualized for you. Have fun with that. Shirts and pant visibility is a completely different topic; yet somehow we attracted all the closet feminists.
lol i have a character that uses the appearance tab and simply has nothing in it... aka naked character. not sure how the OP isnt able to hide shirt/pants since that is essentially what i just did...
What is democrazy? It is a government in which the ruling power is given to whoever is most skillful at directing the herd instincts of the largest masses of their most ignorant citizens.
--Nom Anor
its actually possible now to run as naked as you can by just switching to the other set of clothing and have nothing on there... you still to my understanding get the stats.
As for the OP I did think that they should allow you to mix match gear I mean its right there when you right click to disable visuals...
I'd be more inclined like someone said to mix in the clothing from the non armor gear.
I'm all for more customization options, but I have to admit, I'm also for letting others endure the inverse of what I've had to put up with in MMOs for nearly a decade now, with most games offering double-standard armor that's sexed up on females whilst considerably more sensible on males.
Stats are forcing you to have a frumpy-looking character rather than getting your "eye candy"? Sucks, doesn't it? Some of us didn't much care for ten years of stats forcing our characters to look like battle strippers. Turnabout is fair play and all that.
Owned, but still owned. Universal law folks.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Still trying to find a reference to AD in my AD&D Manuals.
I think the fact that this thread turned into some kind of debate about sexism and overspecialization is ridiculous. I play a male half-elf trickster rogue and I too would like the option. I don't see why the option should be unavailable because one could show some extra skin. If you want to stare at a half naked body, you can already do that easily by switching to the fashion tab with nothing in the slots for no armor penalty whatsoever.
Claiming that including the option to hide the shirt/pants in the armor slots would be reinforcing an unbalance of the male-female-power/sexual fantasy spectrum in any kind of way is simply a fallacy because of this.
I'm okay with not having the option if it is due to devs working on more productive things, I'm all for making a better game. But if I found out that the option is specifically omitted because of the reasons brought up in this thread, I would be pretty upset.
Further, before anyone goes ahead and does it, I'd like to say that just because I play a male character (and am a male in the reality as well) does not mean that my opinion and voice has any less need to be heard. Sometimes, being a member of a majority group means I actually get less voice because I'm but one of many who are superficially viewed to be the same, when in reality am not. I'd call myself a feminist if I didn't already consider myself an egalitarian, but the stuff in this thread is ridiculous and damaging to the campaign of fixing the actual problems regarding the portrayal of women in video games (and yes, it does exist).
EDIT: Sorry if my post is hard to understand. I'm actually a bit notorious for writing long-winded passages that say little. If there's something you don't understand, I'd be happy to try and clear up the confusion.
When barbarian class is added, I'm hoping to see both sexes wearing very little armor & showing alot of flesh. I'm also all for customization, hiding any armor piece you want. This is 2013, all these games should have huge amounts of customization without limits at this stage.
As for anyone bringing in the sexism arguments, please move along. This is a game & not real life, there are plenty of other more important real life issues where that type of argument & battle is worth fighting.
:cool:PLAY TO WIN:cool:|"A light in the darkness."
I found it kind of funny a butthurt feminist managed to derail the thread.
No of course women don't find half dressed men attractive. Just ignore those thousands of romance books with shirtless men on the cover. I'm sure the authors are just catering to the male power fantasy.
Im no feminist, but i have always hated the 'bikini chainmail' trend. Im sure its lovely for the males to look at, but i detested looking at my own character be naked and easily murderable simply for 'eye candy'. On any of the classes who should be armored, it broke the immersion factor for me and annoyed the heck out of me that I never had the option to have a proper armor set because some idiot had deemed it that females must wear skimpy gear to battle.
Which is why i am happy things are the way they are here, but i do support the option of adding eye candy for those of you who seem to care, a hide/show option would be wonderful.
So long as -i- dont have to be a dwarf-lady with a platemail bra and panties because they let a teenager on the management board, all is well in life.
What fits, fits. For the record, i expect my male barbarians to be wearing absolutely nothing, and the same with the females. However, i similarly expect my clerics to be wearing the right attire and chainmail.
Pretty sure that the males would be agitated if their huge plate wearing men were suddenly only wearing a loincloth to battle in every fantasy rpg game, while the females wore the full plated armor sets.
For the record, Batty, I'd be fine with them closing up the armor-holes and giving female characters the exact same armor styles as males. It would, in fact, be my preferred course of action.
-Rachel-
Screw that, beezees in underwear. Its a proven fact that human society evolves in a circular pattern. When men rule, you get what we have today. Rampant war, rich rich, and poor poor. 10,000 years later and money isnt an object anymore. Music and arts flourish and women rule the populace. You whining that women are objectified isnt going to fix the problem. Nor will it change the minds of thousands of men who cant stand annoying women and are more interested in creating one from their imaginations. Frankly Im sick of reading your posts and after the tenth or so post in two pages had to reply. Good luck fighting your war youll never win.
Edit- my control wizard. Bust out the censor bars ladies!
No. If you want to run around like a 12 year old naked <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Rift is the game you're looking for.
I am not 12. But if I want to play a FANTASY game and have the option to show more/less skin on my male/female character then I should have the option to. Especially if the option is already there.
I could care what other people think if my hot female character is running around 1/2 nude. She is my hero and she is going to look **** hot while I am saving Neverwinter.
As for sexism, I certainly agree that skimpy armours for females and proper armours for males is an issue. Revealing armour in itself is not a problem, but it is a problem if the exact same piece of gear is a chainshirt on male toon and a chainmail bikini on a female toon; this is very common in games.
However, as it has been pointed out several times, our characters already have an option to run around in their underwear without any loss of stats via the fashion tab, so there is no sensible reason to prohibit hiding the shirt only.
I really hope they add this, and not because I particularly want to stare half naked female pixels; it just adds more options and variety. Bare armed warrior is kinda classic fantasy look, and I'd like to be able to duplicate that.
Oh, and give us more shirt and trouser options. Why every shirt has to look exactly the same? NPCs have more variety, PCs should be able to access those looks too.
Seriously. All this armor seems to be designed to give a bit of eye candy (not quite bikini armor, but some skin is showing), yet it's all hidden by ugly chain mail. We can hide helms and capes, why not shirts/pants?
You saying you want to see some skin? Really!?
You a guy drooling over some Drow female's *** you made or a female looking fir a mir aesthetic look?
Literally, they should 'll eave armor just like it is
If you wanna stroke one out while watching your binary avatar fighting and such, a better game for that is WOW.
I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.
I am not 12. But if I want to play a FANTASY game and have the option to show more/less skin on my male/female character then I should have the option to. Especially if the option is already there.
I could care what other people think if my hot female character is running around 1/2 nude. She is my hero and she is going to look **** hot while I am saving Neverwinter.
fan
Are you sure? You sure sound like 12.
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xantrisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Because it reinforces the male power fantasy/sexual fantasy dichotomy without offering the reverse.
If you want to take it off, you can. You'll only lose a -little- defense.
-Rachel-
Grow up, it's a video game. Not a pedestal for whining about sexuality.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Interesting Rachel, I thought when you said we'd both made our points clear and were done with the thread, you meant it. Instead I see pages of nonsensical tripe, insults, and you doing nothing more than putting your fingers in your ears and yelling 'agree with me or you're stupid and wrong!'.
You keep saying you want the female characters to be 'power fantasies' and to stop being 'sexual fantasies' so they can be equal to the male characters. However, you still have yet to either bring anything out that conclusively says what you've decided we consider a power fantasy as women (not that I'd agree, but you seem to be quite good at saying other women are wrong when we speak our opinions if they don't support yours), or that women want to play characters that aren't sexually attractive.
Your entire theory is that the men are power fantasies, and power fantasies are not attractive- even though most men considered attractive by females are powerful, wealthy, strong, etc...
The most mind boggling thing here is though- even when women in this thread have said they like more options, they like having a sexy character, or they feel powerful as the character they are playing- you STILL stick with wanting female characters to be turned into something that isn't a sexual fantasy, that isn't attractive, simply to be equal to males not being attractive to you in this game- even if that isn't what women actually want.
Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing an ugly character simply to stick it to the man, and the absurdity of taking up your 'crusade against sexism'- and if you other women don't agree this is sexist, you're a bunch of simpletons who don't understand this is more important than what you like.
Give me a break- you're the most sexist ones here, and you're being just as nasty to the women who disagree with you as you are to the men. Frankly, I don't even know any women who act as you do- so I'm beginning to assume you're a male using a typical 'feminist extremist' personality to troll threads like these and get people riled up.
The thing that gets me most is, after all this, you still are doing nothing but dictate feminist theory- you aren't even saying if you dislike how the female model looks, or what you want the female model to look like- you're just saying what a feminist theory professor would say if they were to review the game in a cold and calculated way.
I mean, congrats for having an educated view- but your desire to label us in such a specific manner and speak for what we want while ignoring anything we say about what we want is... oh what's the word?
Comments
Being a powerful player in game does not make you a better mate, but the reason why people like being powerful is rooted in the principal of mate selection.
Anyways, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, arguing in this case will not solve any issues. My point remains though, all these discussions have their time and place and fantasy games are not one of them.
The poster complaining about "real sexism" made me laugh out loud. There are people in this thread thinking less armor on female characters is normal, or male characters walking without pants would be creepy but female would be okay.
That means the standard babe fantasy is the norm. People don't question it because, why would they do that, it's been seen everywhere, surely it's normal.
I don't call it feminism, it's more like awareness.
I'm all for options, I actually take my shirt off depending on my armor. But the people crying out for options do not seem like they would do it for games where people are asking for toned down gear on female toons.
I'm 'fraid the option to hide shirt/pants would translate into everyone and their mother hiding it.
In a bit tyrannic move, I prefer the actual option where people who want no shirt have to lose a few stats, because it means they really want to have that look (on both male and female), rather than it being the default.
What does a comic about a boy with an overactive imagination have to do with this argument?
Okay, let's see if this will work for you. You brought up Superman earlier as a classic example of Power Fantasy. How is it that you don't see the obvious Sexual Fantasy in that? Are you trying to tell me that you don't see why teenage boys are drawn (no pun intended) to a character who, as Clark Kent, is a milquetoast, but as soon as he takes off his clothes...
I want you to go through the list of all the actors and other celebrities who have been considered the sex symbols for women over the last ten years. You'll see names like George Clooney. Brad Pitt. Gerard Butler. Matthew McConnaughey. Vin Diesel. Dwayne Johnson. Taylor Lautner. Matt Damon. Ben Affleck. Hugh Jackman. David Beckham. Dwayne Johnson. Ryan Reynolds.
Are you noticing a trend? They're all alpha males, or portray alpha males, and they all have zero body fat. Every single one of these men were lusted after by women all over the world. Powerful is sexy to women, and being powerful is being sexy to men.
I for one would love to be able to hide the undershirt on my male half-orc rogue, using the Cloak Tower armor, giving him a more of a barbarian/savage look. In this class, the shirt is just a piece of clothing, not chainmail or anything, serving almost no purpose on a "real" fight.
Having a few more distinct models for the shirt would quelch this need. I did not see the lvl 60 pants and shirt though, so there might be hope. But for lower level rogues, its just a lame rag - that, if i am unable to upgrade, i would rather hide.
Thanks, we will.
To quote my gf, "I wish this game had cute outfits, like Aion."
Feast of the Moon | Rising of the Dark | Shadow of the World | Everdark
--Nom Anor
As for the OP I did think that they should allow you to mix match gear I mean its right there when you right click to disable visuals...
I'd be more inclined like someone said to mix in the clothing from the non armor gear.
/10char
Owned, but still owned. Universal law folks.
Claiming that including the option to hide the shirt/pants in the armor slots would be reinforcing an unbalance of the male-female-power/sexual fantasy spectrum in any kind of way is simply a fallacy because of this.
I'm okay with not having the option if it is due to devs working on more productive things, I'm all for making a better game. But if I found out that the option is specifically omitted because of the reasons brought up in this thread, I would be pretty upset.
Further, before anyone goes ahead and does it, I'd like to say that just because I play a male character (and am a male in the reality as well) does not mean that my opinion and voice has any less need to be heard. Sometimes, being a member of a majority group means I actually get less voice because I'm but one of many who are superficially viewed to be the same, when in reality am not. I'd call myself a feminist if I didn't already consider myself an egalitarian, but the stuff in this thread is ridiculous and damaging to the campaign of fixing the actual problems regarding the portrayal of women in video games (and yes, it does exist).
EDIT: Sorry if my post is hard to understand. I'm actually a bit notorious for writing long-winded passages that say little. If there's something you don't understand, I'd be happy to try and clear up the confusion.
You can play a sexy male character with the fashion mode. There's a tutorial when you get the peasant shirt.
As for anyone bringing in the sexism arguments, please move along. This is a game & not real life, there are plenty of other more important real life issues where that type of argument & battle is worth fighting.
No of course women don't find half dressed men attractive. Just ignore those thousands of romance books with shirtless men on the cover. I'm sure the authors are just catering to the male power fantasy.
Im no feminist, but i have always hated the 'bikini chainmail' trend. Im sure its lovely for the males to look at, but i detested looking at my own character be naked and easily murderable simply for 'eye candy'. On any of the classes who should be armored, it broke the immersion factor for me and annoyed the heck out of me that I never had the option to have a proper armor set because some idiot had deemed it that females must wear skimpy gear to battle.
Which is why i am happy things are the way they are here, but i do support the option of adding eye candy for those of you who seem to care, a hide/show option would be wonderful.
So long as -i- dont have to be a dwarf-lady with a platemail bra and panties because they let a teenager on the management board, all is well in life.
What fits, fits. For the record, i expect my male barbarians to be wearing absolutely nothing, and the same with the females. However, i similarly expect my clerics to be wearing the right attire and chainmail.
Pretty sure that the males would be agitated if their huge plate wearing men were suddenly only wearing a loincloth to battle in every fantasy rpg game, while the females wore the full plated armor sets.
Head of PR
http://www.gamersaurs.com/
Screw that, beezees in underwear. Its a proven fact that human society evolves in a circular pattern. When men rule, you get what we have today. Rampant war, rich rich, and poor poor. 10,000 years later and money isnt an object anymore. Music and arts flourish and women rule the populace. You whining that women are objectified isnt going to fix the problem. Nor will it change the minds of thousands of men who cant stand annoying women and are more interested in creating one from their imaginations. Frankly Im sick of reading your posts and after the tenth or so post in two pages had to reply. Good luck fighting your war youll never win.
Edit- my control wizard. Bust out the censor bars ladies!
I am not 12. But if I want to play a FANTASY game and have the option to show more/less skin on my male/female character then I should have the option to. Especially if the option is already there.
I could care what other people think if my hot female character is running around 1/2 nude. She is my hero and she is going to look **** hot while I am saving Neverwinter.
fan
However, as it has been pointed out several times, our characters already have an option to run around in their underwear without any loss of stats via the fashion tab, so there is no sensible reason to prohibit hiding the shirt only.
I really hope they add this, and not because I particularly want to stare half naked female pixels; it just adds more options and variety. Bare armed warrior is kinda classic fantasy look, and I'd like to be able to duplicate that.
Oh, and give us more shirt and trouser options. Why every shirt has to look exactly the same? NPCs have more variety, PCs should be able to access those looks too.
You saying you want to see some skin? Really!?
You a guy drooling over some Drow female's *** you made or a female looking fir a mir aesthetic look?
Literally, they should 'll eave armor just like it is
If you wanna stroke one out while watching your binary avatar fighting and such, a better game for that is WOW.
-Kymos
I ran around with no pants on all the time and i'm 27.
Are you sure? You sure sound like 12.
Don't be a wussy prude
Grow up, it's a video game. Not a pedestal for whining about sexuality.
You keep saying you want the female characters to be 'power fantasies' and to stop being 'sexual fantasies' so they can be equal to the male characters. However, you still have yet to either bring anything out that conclusively says what you've decided we consider a power fantasy as women (not that I'd agree, but you seem to be quite good at saying other women are wrong when we speak our opinions if they don't support yours), or that women want to play characters that aren't sexually attractive.
Your entire theory is that the men are power fantasies, and power fantasies are not attractive- even though most men considered attractive by females are powerful, wealthy, strong, etc...
The most mind boggling thing here is though- even when women in this thread have said they like more options, they like having a sexy character, or they feel powerful as the character they are playing- you STILL stick with wanting female characters to be turned into something that isn't a sexual fantasy, that isn't attractive, simply to be equal to males not being attractive to you in this game- even if that isn't what women actually want.
Sorry, but I'm not interested in playing an ugly character simply to stick it to the man, and the absurdity of taking up your 'crusade against sexism'- and if you other women don't agree this is sexist, you're a bunch of simpletons who don't understand this is more important than what you like.
Give me a break- you're the most sexist ones here, and you're being just as nasty to the women who disagree with you as you are to the men. Frankly, I don't even know any women who act as you do- so I'm beginning to assume you're a male using a typical 'feminist extremist' personality to troll threads like these and get people riled up.
The thing that gets me most is, after all this, you still are doing nothing but dictate feminist theory- you aren't even saying if you dislike how the female model looks, or what you want the female model to look like- you're just saying what a feminist theory professor would say if they were to review the game in a cold and calculated way.
I mean, congrats for having an educated view- but your desire to label us in such a specific manner and speak for what we want while ignoring anything we say about what we want is... oh what's the word?
Ah right- sexist.