This build is only 'okay' for pve. And because this build goes for damage, really it's only good for trying to top damage charts in pve. Mostly I pvp as a CW, and this build would have lots of trouble in pvp. Not saying that this build is supposed to be for pvp or anything, because obviously it is not. But if it IS for pve, why stat for dps when the group really needs you there for control? I mean really, the class is called Control Wizard. So if you are a team player, shouldn't you pay more attention to control?
I am not sure if it is just players wanting to top dps charts (which is not being a team player) or players just not willing to accept the fact that CW is designed to be a support class, but in either case I don't see the value of a dps only CW build. Please enlighten me.
Because in Cryptic's wisdom they made healing and controlling pointless in PvP. If you want top spot and a blue item, your only choice is to top the score chart, which is done easiest with good DPS.
This build is only 'okay' for pve. And because this build goes for damage, really it's only good for trying to top damage charts in pve. Mostly I pvp as a CW, and this build would have lots of trouble in pvp. Not saying that this build is supposed to be for pvp or anything, because obviously it is not. But if it IS for pve, why stat for dps when the group really needs you there for control? I mean really, the class is called Control Wizard. So if you are a team player, shouldn't you pay more attention to control?
I am not sure if it is just players wanting to top dps charts (which is not being a team player) or players just not willing to accept the fact that CW is designed to be a support class, but in either case I don't see the value of a dps only CW build. Please enlighten me.
A lot of people such as yourself see it as all one or the other when that is pretty far from the truth. The actual guide spells out what he thinks of quite a few control powers - it's up to you if you decide to use them or not.
I gear for damage but have steal time, chill strike and entangling force on my bars pretty much all the time. It's a balancing act. Nothing says you can't do damage AND control at the same time - and do them both well.
Because in Cryptic's wisdom they made healing and controlling pointless in PvP. If you want top spot and a blue item, your only choice is to top the score chart, which is done easiest with good DPS.
But I do top the charts and get blue items in pvp, about 90% of the time, and I don't use a dps CW build. Mainly, I am curious as to the pve aspect of it. Why go dps instead of control for pve? I did manage to top dps chart in a dungeon once (and believe me I have no idea how since I use mainly control) and I don't remember being rewarded with an extra blue item for the dungeon.
A lot of people such as yourself see it as all one or the other when that is pretty far from the truth. The actual guide spells out what he thinks of quite a few control powers - it's up to you if you decide to use them or not.
I gear for damage but have steal time, chill strike and entangling force on my bars pretty much all the time. It's a balancing act. Nothing says you can't do damage AND control at the same time - and do them both well.
Well, to a certain degree you are correct. However, you're not going to be able to follow the Oppressor tree AND the Renegade one for example. You have to pick a path at some point.
Edited to add: Lol if you are not using aoe dps, you aren't doing great dps having Chill Strike and Entangling Force as powers sorry. You may doing what you see as good dps while having control, but in reality it's not nearly as good as aoe dps. So yea, if you are using control powers mainly you aren't doing great dps.
Well, to a certain degree you are correct. However, you're not going to be able to follow the Oppressor tree AND the Renegade one for example. You have to pick a path at some point.
Edited to add: Lol if you are not using aoe dps, you aren't doing great dps having Chill Strike and Entangling Force as powers sorry. You may doing what you see as good dps while having control, but in reality it's not nearly as good as aoe dps. So yea, if you are using control powers mainly you aren't doing great dps.
Are you actually trying to imply that spell mastery chill strike is not good AE dps?
Are you actually trying to imply that spell mastery chill strike is not good AE dps?
Not at all, it's great for AoE dps. But if you are also using Entangling Force (control power) you are basically cutting your dps down right there. In all truth, your original statement that you can do both very well at the same time is false. If you're not using powers, feats, and stats all together to meet one goal or the other you are doing each less than optimally.
Not at all, it's great for AoE dps. But if you are also using Entangling Force (control power) you are basically cutting your dps down right there. In all truth, your original statement that you can do both very well at the same time is false. In truth, if you're not using powers, feats, and stats all together to meet one goal or the other you are doing each less than optimally.
I never said 'the best' I said very well. I've topped the charts plenty of times with my setups or come close enough to count yet still provide adequate control. As I said before, this doesn't have to be an all or nothing game, I realize some of you guys like to play them that way.
Ahem. Well yea, I'll continue playing the best I can in one role and not spread myself thin. Thanks for clarifying. Lol.
However, my original question still stands for those of us who are optimal in our roles:
Why go dps in pve group settings instead of control as a CW? Is there any benefit other than topping charts, which as far as I've seen is not a benefit but a detriment to the team? I mean do CW spec'd into AoE dps do so much damage that it just negates the need for control altogether?
Ahem. Well yea, I'll continue playing the best I can in one role and not spread myself thin. Thanks for clarifying. Lol.
However, my original question still stands for those of us who are optimal in our roles:
Why go dps in pve group settings instead of control as a CW? Is there any benefit other than topping charts, which as far as I've seen is not a benefit but a detriment to the team? I mean do CW spec'd into AoE dps do so much damage that it just negates the need for control altogether?
You're still not getting it but I'm done wasting my time with you. Hopefully find whatever answer it is you're really looking for.
You're still not getting it but I'm done wasting my time with you. Hopefully find whatever answer it is you're really looking for.
The feeling is mutual lol. Hoping someone who actually knows how to spec for dps or control (because yes the game is designed in a way that you need to pick one or the other to do each optimally) can tell me why go for dps in pve groups?
Well, to a certain degree you are correct. However, you're not going to be able to follow the Oppressor tree AND the Renegade one for example. You have to pick a path at some point.
Edited to add: Lol if you are not using aoe dps, you aren't doing great dps having Chill Strike and Entangling Force as powers sorry. You may doing what you see as good dps while having control, but in reality it's not nearly as good as aoe dps. So yea, if you are using control powers mainly you aren't doing great dps.
Well I use control powers too, including those two, with a dps build and yet top charts most of the time in skirmish/dungeon.
But if it IS for pve, why stat for dps when the group really needs you there for control? I mean really, the class is called Control Wizard. So if you are a team player, shouldn't you pay more attention to control?
It's not an either/or decision. Up to, and including, T2 dungeons this build works for both controlling and top damage. It's not mutually exclusive. There has been no situation where I felt the build lacked in control capabilities. I use Steal Team almost always on CD, I use Entangling Force on pretty much every strong mob in a group (or on casters), and I use Arcane Singularity more often than Ice Knife. All of this is CC, and it doesn't stop this build from doing very competitive damage at the same time.
Often, in T2, CC isn't even needed often. Maybe I get lucky when it comes to good groups, but half my Entangling Force casts are probably completely unnecessary. And during T2 boss fights with adds (all of them!) there are SO MANY adds that Steal Time and AS are the only usable CC anyway. In addition, I feel that high damage is necessary for smooth runs, too, because all those adds need to go down or the group gets overwhelmed, CC or not.
Basically, I have yet to run into a situation where I felt this build needed more control. If it lacks in anything, it is AP generation, not damage, not CC. Half the spells on my bar are essentially CC anyway, including tabbed Chill Strike (awesome spell, really) with counts as mini CC and major dps spell. I'm not sure how you would build a renegade wizard in any other way. Thaumaturge is the other common spec and it's also damage focused (it does less damage, in my opinion, but is less risky to play). I have not done Castle Never, so I can't comment on the situation there.
As for PvP, I have no experience with Oppressor, so I can't comment on this. I exchanged PMs with a PvP wizard who mentioned he had more success with Renegade than with Oppressor, but I have no first hand experience. What would you change about the feats for PvP? I included all viable PvP-suited spells in the build.
A lot of the things you suggest don't work the way they should.
Example:
You state the Tiefling is the best CW race, and then suggest that we all pick up Tempest Magic. Too bad the racial and TM do not stack. I made a ticket about this a few days ago and got a response from Cryptic saying they will be "investigating" this further.
For Steal Time you actually suggest that people telport in, cast it, and teleport out, but teleporting in and casting it right away actually puts it on cooldown without triggering the effect.
Good effort, and the guide will be a good one when all the bugs are fixed. As it is right now, I found too many issues with it.
First of all, thank you imivo for your reply. However I do have to disagree with the 'not one or the other' argument and here's why:
A CW who is trying to do dps as their main focus really shouldn't use much control powers. It just makes little sense, other than being diverse. But still, I believe that the dps (which was the main goal of the build) will suffer from it. On the flipside, if you are using mainly control abilities, there is no way that you can output the same dps as a CW using only dps powers/feats. That's my opinion, and I can't see any way that you don't (even if it's by a small amount) give up one or the other by doing both.
As for pvp: Yea perhaps I should have just started a new thread about this subject because I am sorry but I seem to be half derailing the thread in another direction. As a Renegade Wizard (which is what your build is about), I really can't recommend much for pvp because it's just not as good imo. Truth be told, yea I'd need to start an entire thread to explain my take on pvp CW and why I top the pvp charts all the time.
The only thing I really was wondering to begin with was what would encourage a CW to spec dps moreso than control? Because in the feats if you go one route you are obviously not getting the feats that would benefit the other.
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violated87Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
You seem to suggest that you can play a CW for control and still do adequate damage but we can't play a CW for damage and still put out adequate control. Almost all of our abilities have some type of control to them (sudden storm and conduit of ice are the only skills I can think of with no control element).
Furthermore, control isn't just limited to hard CC. Part of control is keeping all the weak trash off your healer so your tank and striker can continue to focus on the big guys (the guys that can't be CC'd at all). Killing all that trash is a much better solution than trying to keep it locked down with CC, especially if we can do it efficiently (and we can).
Finally, as a support, we have more than just CC at our disposal. We also provide group buffs (Prestidigitation, Chaos Magic, Nightmare Wizardry) and debuffs (RoE, Assailing Force, Elemental Empowerment, Cold Infusion) to aid our efforts. See Ray of Enfeeblement, which offers no hard CC but reduces the damage of the target and it's mitigation. This ability is of far greater use than any CC on most boss fights (which are almost all immune to CC).
You seem to suggest that you can play a CW for control and still do adequate damage but we can't play a CW for damage and still put out adequate control. Almost all of our abilities have some type of control to them (sudden storm and conduit of ice are the only skills I can think of with no control element).
Nah not saying this at all. While you can do both, honestly to do each optimally (meaning the best possible) you need to pick one or the other. Tired of repeating myself. Yea as dps you can control, just not as well as someone who only controls. This view also only brings up abilities, which is only a small part of the entire build. Any build direction can use powers that are outside of its realm of expertise.
Furthermore, control isn't just limited to hard CC. Part of control is keeping all the weak trash off your healer so your tank and striker can continue to focus on the big guys (the guys that can't be CC'd at all). Killing all that trash is a much better solution than trying to keep it locked down with CC, especially if we can do it efficiently (and we can).
Thank you, this seems to be the answer after all of this I have been searching for. So in your opinion, you do think that the damage output can far outweigh the need for control altogether for pve?
Finally, as a support, we have more than just CC at our disposal. We also provide group buffs (Prestidigitation, Chaos Magic, Nightmare Wizardry) and debuffs (RoE, Assailing Force, Elemental Empowerment, Cold Infusion) to aid our efforts. See Ray of Enfeeblement, which offers no hard CC but reduces the damage of the target and it's mitigation. This ability is of far greater use than any CC on most boss fights (which are almost all immune to CC).
Yep, I'm very aware of all those abilities and how they work. Thanks for the recap.
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violated87Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I really don't understand your logic about controlling vs. DPSing and having to pick one or the other. There are only a few "control" feats available to us, and those are just feats that grant additional chill stacks from certain spells. There is 1 feat that puts a 5% damage debuff on enemies afflicted by chill. Every other feat is damage related or some form of personal utility. The only real control vs. dps debate in a build is whether to invest in Wisdom or not. Someone who maximizes wisdom vs dps will have 7-10 more wisdom (depending on race and whether the player went 12 or 13 starting wisdom) vs a dps focused player. Everything else is equivalent.
The point we're trying to make is that many of the control abilities you probably use for control are also the same abilities we use to do dps. As mentioned before, Conduit of Ice and Sudden Storm are the only 2 abilities that have zero control element, and CoI can be placed in tab to become a very strong control spell anyway (stacking chill and freezing entire groups at 6 stacks). Sudden Storm is bugged, doing less damage than it should, and can't crit so many of us are starting to avoid it.
What CC abilities are you using that you think we aren't (and should be using to be more control focused)? Or why do you think they aren't as effective for control because of intent? Whether I use Steal Time for damage or for control, it still slows and it still stuns.
Finally, the answer to your question in part 2 is essentially yes. As an MMO veteran CC is either necessary or it's not. The goal of PVE is to 1) beat the encounter, and 2) do it as fast as possible. Unless using CC helps those goals, then it's not worth using. Some examples of when CC is necessary are: 1) dealing with healers, 2) dealing with "annoying" mobs that interrupt or silence, which would reduce your damage, 3) something would otherwise result in a players death somehow (assassins, abilities that need to be interrupted, etc), and so forth.
TLDR; unless you're wiping and/or cc would make clearing more efficient then there's no reason to use it. That said, in Neverwinter most of the cc is embedded in our damage spells anyway which makes a ton of this discussion moot.
I used the maintenance to do dishes, and update part one and two a little. I added some notes concerning bugs and quirks, and a few additional notes concerning T2 epic dungeons in the feats and spell section. I also included alternative perspectives and opinions that came up in the comments to the guide, just to offer the reader a wider spectrum of views.
I have been asked (a lot) for a screenshot of my Powers. I have not included this because I want you to think about the spells that you put points into. If I post a screenshot, people will blindly copy the build without reading the commentary, and while that is not bad, I think if you want to be a competent Control Wizard, it is helpful to know why you choose a spell. I may still add one later. Sorry for being annoying like that.
The only CC skills that I don't see people use at all are Icy Ray (able to immobilize up to 2 targets) and Icy Terrain. Icy Ray is terrible since it does not stop the target from attacking (hence useless against mages or anything with more than melee range/ranged skills). Icy Terrain is pretty nice BUT has rather lackluster aoe range (considering its main ability being constant chill stacking till freeze) and terrible damage.
So the "best" argument you could make is with Icy Terrain, and even then, I'll ask you this: What does a chill stacking ground spawn aoe with low damage have over simply using any other aoe? The times where I've actually tried this in dungeons...I barely felt its impact. I get way more "CC" by killing trash mobs/CC-immuned targets faster with a buggy aoe like Sudden Storm than I ever would Icy Terrain.
Thanks for the replies, I believe ultimately I finally got the answer I needed. Seems like you can just blast through pve dungeons easier with solid dps than control and quick dodge/blinking. Bringing more dps to the table seems to far outweigh the value of the CC abilities.
Sorry to partially derail the thread, as it really is a great thread about this Renegade build. I still believe that a good player who takes into account all feat paths, feats, powers, races, and the big one: stats on equipment can find a very discernible difference between a CC or a dps focused build. Be seeing you on the pvp battlefield, and as long as 90% of CW are going a dps route that just keeps me happy in there But that's for another thread, cheers!
edited as an afterthought: Come to think of it, given the time I may just go ahead and put up a similar post just for a pvp-oriented CW build. So then everyone can see more clearly the differences of which I speak. I'm in no hurry to do this, but do keep an eye open for it when I can find the time.
I'm downloading this tommorow and wanted to confirm a few things.
A. I played several MMOs and my playstyle has revolved around abusing AOEs, using regular or low MP skills during AOE cooldown, and using good close quarter skills as a get me off. I looked at your build and really looks awesome, but you mentioned something about not regenerating Action points quickly or something? Are Action points like mana? Also, does CW damage depend mostly on Crits for damage? A previous MMO I played (DFO) had a class called a Ranger, who's damage relied solely on about 5 (out of 20) skills, and 70% crit rate. Please tell me CW does not need this T_T.
B. I don't plan to PVP much, if at all, so are there any active/passive skills on the build I should not invest in if i want to go pure PVE?
C. Is the Control Wizard a glass cannon? I haven't even played the game yet, but I already know the guardian weaponmaster (or whatever the name is) is seriously underpowered, so i'm curious if the CW class is at least better than that (I think I'll choose Teifling class btw).
D. Should I follow this build to the letter or can I use a variant once i get the hang of the game?
Ahem. Well yea, I'll continue playing the best I can in one role and not spread myself thin. Thanks for clarifying. Lol.
However, my original question still stands for those of us who are optimal in our roles:
Why go dps in pve group settings instead of control as a CW? Is there any benefit other than topping charts, which as far as I've seen is not a benefit but a detriment to the team? I mean do CW spec'd into AoE dps do so much damage that it just negates the need for control altogether?
Best form of CC in the game = death.
I don't use this build the OP laid out and I use a build I put myself together, even though it has some mistakes but i'm not respeccing for now, and of ALL the groups I run with epic dungeons and pugs I always ask them what they think of my build and what they like and what they don't like:
All the rogues say they seem to do more damage when they run with me (since I got the stats buff to group talent) and everyone always says they have less problems with adds and the run is simply faster running with me. Why, would you ask?
Because my build is focused completely in DAMAGE. AoE and single target, with Ap regen coupled as much as possible.
CW have ****ty control skills for AoE. Exactly what I said - we have ****ty control skills for AoE. You have a timeframe in bosses and encounters to kill adds before you get overwhelmed. It's simple as that, you either hold the fight down and kill all the stuff during that time frame or you're dead meat.
With that in mind, Controller role in D&D also refers to the reduction in the enemies capabilities of fighting. If you're killing FAST whatever is on your Cleric so he can do his job and RoE whatever your rogue is stabbing, and dealing massive AoE damage (up to now, hopefully Sorcerer and Monk won't be long to come out) trust me, people will like you there.
Hi and welcome to the game man. It's a lot of fun!
A. Action points let you use your 'daily' powers, which are sort of like 'the heavy hitter spells'. It can be viewed as mana, in a way, but in this game it's all just cooldown based for most skills and you use AP for the big ones. The AP accumulates as you deal more damage with the regular ones. As far as Crit, it will definitely help if you are after damage my friend. Most gear that gives power (more damage) also gives crit, so if you are going for dps you are likely going to just naturally gear for power/crit.
B. I actually mostly pvp, so I'll leave this one for more pve-centered players
C. The CW does take a lot of damage, with little mitigation. However, the CW can also blink around (teleport) very quickly and up to 3 times in very rapid succession. This means that survivability is very high for a CW who can react and dodge fast. In addition, there is a shield power the CW gets that can help with initial damage taken.
D. Personally I recommend exploring the powers and finding what suits your playstyle. As has been stated here many times, there are several ways to be effective by combining different powers. Ultimately I believe it will boil down to what you enjoy the most, b/c as far as damage goes there are a lot of things to try.
All that being said, you sound like a player who likes to blast out AoE dps as quickly as possible so I'd probably recommend a slight variant of this build that might pick up more of the AP generating abilities. Hope this helps man, cheers!
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qryticalMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I don't use this build the OP laid out and I use a build I put myself together, even though it has some mistakes but i'm not respeccing for now, and of ALL the groups I run with epic dungeons and pugs I always ask them what they think of my build and what they like and what they don't like:
All the rogues say they seem to do more damage when they run with me (since I got the stats buff to group talent) and everyone always says they have less problems with adds and the run is simply faster running with me. Why, would you ask?
Because my build is focused completely in DAMAGE. AoE and single target, with Ap regen coupled as much as possible.
CW have ****ty control skills for AoE. Exactly what I said - we have ****ty control skills for AoE. You have a timeframe in bosses and encounters to kill adds before you get overwhelmed. It's simple as that, you either hold the fight down and kill all the stuff during that time frame or you're dead meat.
With that in mind, Controller role in D&D also refers to the reduction in the enemies capabilities of fighting. If you're killing FAST whatever is on your Cleric so he can do his job and RoE whatever your rogue is stabbing, and dealing massive AoE damage (up to now, hopefully Sorcerer and Monk won't be long to come out) trust me, people will like you there.
You bring an excellent point, which is not just CCing but also reducing the enemies' fighting capabilities.
And boy can CWs do this right. A Thaumaturge spec can do CoI (AoE 15% mitigation debuff), RoE (>15% mitigation debuff), 10% defense debuff for 3 secs after each Arcane power with Elemental Empowerment, throw in a Plague Fire Enchantment in your weapon (30% defense debuff at 3 stacks) and you will be considerably amplifying the damage your entire team can put out.
For PvE the only CC power I bother using is Singularity and Chill Strike. I find I'm more useful to the team when focusing on damage and debuffs.
A. I played several MMOs and my playstyle has revolved around abusing AOEs, using regular or low MP skills during AOE cooldown, and using good close quarter skills as a get me off. I looked at your build and really looks awesome, but you mentioned something about not regenerating Action points quickly or something? Are Action points like mana?
Action Points are used for the Daily Powers, which are basically spells that you can only cast when your Action Points meter is full. It is not like mana. The game doesn't use anything that is like mana and you are only limited by short cooldowns for the Encounter spells and the Daily Powers. At Will spells use no resource and have no cooldown. AP generation is the weak spot of this build, but this sounds worse than it is, especially since at least I don't use the Daily Powers exactly when the AP bubble is full (e.g. no point in using Arcane Singularity when there's two mobs left and you know in the next room is a big group of baddies waiting).
B. I don't plan to PVP much, if at all, so are there any active/passive skills on the build I should not invest in if i want to go pure PVE?
There are no spells that are solely for PvP. You will have many more spells in your book than on your active spell bar, so having situational extras is a good plan. You will have them anyway. If you only put points into what you use at max levels in dungeons, you would have half the points left. You also need to "waste" some points in order to get to the higher tier spells.
C. Is the Control Wizard a glass cannon? I haven't even played the game yet, but I already know the guardian weaponmaster (or whatever the name is) is seriously underpowered, so i'm curious if the CW class is at least better than that (I think I'll choose Teifling class btw).
The Great Weapon Fighter is only underpowered below level 35. By level 60, in T2 epic dungeons (when the game actually gets harder), the GWF will match a CW's damage and may even trump it. It is a late bloomer and people give up on it too soon. The CW is a wizard, so he's more squishy than a tank, but with all the control spells and the damage, you will rarely get hit. You CAN handle a hit or two, too. It's not as squishy as some mages in other games I have played, but you certainly are less suited for tanking any mobs, unlike the cleric or the GF.
I feel that a CW is essential and almost required in the end game content. It brings control, good damage and debuffing, and it has range. Every class has its place, though. But no, if I played a different class (I am leveling alts!), I would always want a CW with a sense of awareness in my party for T2 dungeons and up. And before that it is also always useful.
D. Should I follow this build to the letter or can I use a variant once i get the hang of the game?
Either/or! The build works wonderfully, but I really encourage people to look at the feats and the spells, ideally even consult the tooltips in the game, and think about them. My commentary on spells and feats is meant to offer guidance and starting points for one's own conclusions. There is a room for playstyle preferences and experimentation. I think the feat choices are pretty static with only a few points that can be spent differently (I included notes for those). With the spells there is plenty of room for making own choices.
I hope you'll enjoy your wizard as much as many of us do when you dive into Neverwinter!
uberoverpower and qrytical: Thanks a lot guys, this farther strengthens the opinion put forth by others that CC is far inferior to dps in pve. It basically shows that the control element of grouping (even with boss adds) is kinda useless when you can just mow the mobs down with AoE.
Actually, as the discussion has progressed it is being noticed (as mentioned above) that control isn't that good for pve. Taking that under consideration, yes there are control abilities I use in PvP all the time that I would not take to a pve dungeon. Imo, that does mean that those abilities are for PvP. Not that they can't be used in pve, just that they aren't as useful as others.
@Astral and Amivo
Thanks for the tips. So AP is basically for your Ultras (for lack of a better word). Now I know there is some freedom for my build I feel a lot more comfortable digging into this game.
Reaper's Touch (5/5)
A ton more damage for Magic Missile when you are with 20ft of an enemy. Lovely in PvE and PvP. I need to note that monsters in T2 epic dungeons and beyond hit hard, but you will have developed a good feel for the range of Steal Time and the cast time. You should usually get your cast off before anything hits you. Practice teleporting backwards without turning.
I don't like this...magic missile is 80 ft distance...and I usually prefer to stay back...I'd much prefer the other feat that gives me more Action Points to land the big bucks!
I don't like this...magic missile is 80 ft distance...and I usually prefer to stay back...I'd much prefer the other feat that gives me more Action Points to land the big bucks!
It sacrifices a lot of damage, though. You often need to be close anyway for Steal Time, and you want to stand in the cleric's Astral Shield and Hallowed Ground (this one has a wider radius). I think Reaper's Touch is essential, but if another feat works better for you, that's perfectly fine, too! My playstyle is to be close and personal (within reason!).
Comments
Because in Cryptic's wisdom they made healing and controlling pointless in PvP. If you want top spot and a blue item, your only choice is to top the score chart, which is done easiest with good DPS.
A lot of people such as yourself see it as all one or the other when that is pretty far from the truth. The actual guide spells out what he thinks of quite a few control powers - it's up to you if you decide to use them or not.
I gear for damage but have steal time, chill strike and entangling force on my bars pretty much all the time. It's a balancing act. Nothing says you can't do damage AND control at the same time - and do them both well.
But I do top the charts and get blue items in pvp, about 90% of the time, and I don't use a dps CW build. Mainly, I am curious as to the pve aspect of it. Why go dps instead of control for pve? I did manage to top dps chart in a dungeon once (and believe me I have no idea how since I use mainly control) and I don't remember being rewarded with an extra blue item for the dungeon.
Well, to a certain degree you are correct. However, you're not going to be able to follow the Oppressor tree AND the Renegade one for example. You have to pick a path at some point.
Edited to add: Lol if you are not using aoe dps, you aren't doing great dps having Chill Strike and Entangling Force as powers sorry. You may doing what you see as good dps while having control, but in reality it's not nearly as good as aoe dps. So yea, if you are using control powers mainly you aren't doing great dps.
Are you actually trying to imply that spell mastery chill strike is not good AE dps?
Not at all, it's great for AoE dps. But if you are also using Entangling Force (control power) you are basically cutting your dps down right there. In all truth, your original statement that you can do both very well at the same time is false. If you're not using powers, feats, and stats all together to meet one goal or the other you are doing each less than optimally.
I never said 'the best' I said very well. I've topped the charts plenty of times with my setups or come close enough to count yet still provide adequate control. As I said before, this doesn't have to be an all or nothing game, I realize some of you guys like to play them that way.
However, my original question still stands for those of us who are optimal in our roles:
Why go dps in pve group settings instead of control as a CW? Is there any benefit other than topping charts, which as far as I've seen is not a benefit but a detriment to the team? I mean do CW spec'd into AoE dps do so much damage that it just negates the need for control altogether?
You're still not getting it but I'm done wasting my time with you. Hopefully find whatever answer it is you're really looking for.
The feeling is mutual lol. Hoping someone who actually knows how to spec for dps or control (because yes the game is designed in a way that you need to pick one or the other to do each optimally) can tell me why go for dps in pve groups?
Well I use control powers too, including those two, with a dps build and yet top charts most of the time in skirmish/dungeon.
It's not an either/or decision. Up to, and including, T2 dungeons this build works for both controlling and top damage. It's not mutually exclusive. There has been no situation where I felt the build lacked in control capabilities. I use Steal Team almost always on CD, I use Entangling Force on pretty much every strong mob in a group (or on casters), and I use Arcane Singularity more often than Ice Knife. All of this is CC, and it doesn't stop this build from doing very competitive damage at the same time.
Often, in T2, CC isn't even needed often. Maybe I get lucky when it comes to good groups, but half my Entangling Force casts are probably completely unnecessary. And during T2 boss fights with adds (all of them!) there are SO MANY adds that Steal Time and AS are the only usable CC anyway. In addition, I feel that high damage is necessary for smooth runs, too, because all those adds need to go down or the group gets overwhelmed, CC or not.
Basically, I have yet to run into a situation where I felt this build needed more control. If it lacks in anything, it is AP generation, not damage, not CC. Half the spells on my bar are essentially CC anyway, including tabbed Chill Strike (awesome spell, really) with counts as mini CC and major dps spell. I'm not sure how you would build a renegade wizard in any other way. Thaumaturge is the other common spec and it's also damage focused (it does less damage, in my opinion, but is less risky to play). I have not done Castle Never, so I can't comment on the situation there.
As for PvP, I have no experience with Oppressor, so I can't comment on this. I exchanged PMs with a PvP wizard who mentioned he had more success with Renegade than with Oppressor, but I have no first hand experience. What would you change about the feats for PvP? I included all viable PvP-suited spells in the build.
All I can say to that is you weren't in there with another CW doing AoE damage solely for the purpose of dps.
A lot of the things you suggest don't work the way they should.
Example:
You state the Tiefling is the best CW race, and then suggest that we all pick up Tempest Magic. Too bad the racial and TM do not stack. I made a ticket about this a few days ago and got a response from Cryptic saying they will be "investigating" this further.
For Steal Time you actually suggest that people telport in, cast it, and teleport out, but teleporting in and casting it right away actually puts it on cooldown without triggering the effect.
Good effort, and the guide will be a good one when all the bugs are fixed. As it is right now, I found too many issues with it.
A CW who is trying to do dps as their main focus really shouldn't use much control powers. It just makes little sense, other than being diverse. But still, I believe that the dps (which was the main goal of the build) will suffer from it. On the flipside, if you are using mainly control abilities, there is no way that you can output the same dps as a CW using only dps powers/feats. That's my opinion, and I can't see any way that you don't (even if it's by a small amount) give up one or the other by doing both.
As for pvp: Yea perhaps I should have just started a new thread about this subject because I am sorry but I seem to be half derailing the thread in another direction. As a Renegade Wizard (which is what your build is about), I really can't recommend much for pvp because it's just not as good imo. Truth be told, yea I'd need to start an entire thread to explain my take on pvp CW and why I top the pvp charts all the time.
The only thing I really was wondering to begin with was what would encourage a CW to spec dps moreso than control? Because in the feats if you go one route you are obviously not getting the feats that would benefit the other.
Furthermore, control isn't just limited to hard CC. Part of control is keeping all the weak trash off your healer so your tank and striker can continue to focus on the big guys (the guys that can't be CC'd at all). Killing all that trash is a much better solution than trying to keep it locked down with CC, especially if we can do it efficiently (and we can).
Finally, as a support, we have more than just CC at our disposal. We also provide group buffs (Prestidigitation, Chaos Magic, Nightmare Wizardry) and debuffs (RoE, Assailing Force, Elemental Empowerment, Cold Infusion) to aid our efforts. See Ray of Enfeeblement, which offers no hard CC but reduces the damage of the target and it's mitigation. This ability is of far greater use than any CC on most boss fights (which are almost all immune to CC).
Nah not saying this at all. While you can do both, honestly to do each optimally (meaning the best possible) you need to pick one or the other. Tired of repeating myself. Yea as dps you can control, just not as well as someone who only controls. This view also only brings up abilities, which is only a small part of the entire build. Any build direction can use powers that are outside of its realm of expertise.
Thank you, this seems to be the answer after all of this I have been searching for. So in your opinion, you do think that the damage output can far outweigh the need for control altogether for pve?
Yep, I'm very aware of all those abilities and how they work. Thanks for the recap.
The point we're trying to make is that many of the control abilities you probably use for control are also the same abilities we use to do dps. As mentioned before, Conduit of Ice and Sudden Storm are the only 2 abilities that have zero control element, and CoI can be placed in tab to become a very strong control spell anyway (stacking chill and freezing entire groups at 6 stacks). Sudden Storm is bugged, doing less damage than it should, and can't crit so many of us are starting to avoid it.
What CC abilities are you using that you think we aren't (and should be using to be more control focused)? Or why do you think they aren't as effective for control because of intent? Whether I use Steal Time for damage or for control, it still slows and it still stuns.
Finally, the answer to your question in part 2 is essentially yes. As an MMO veteran CC is either necessary or it's not. The goal of PVE is to 1) beat the encounter, and 2) do it as fast as possible. Unless using CC helps those goals, then it's not worth using. Some examples of when CC is necessary are: 1) dealing with healers, 2) dealing with "annoying" mobs that interrupt or silence, which would reduce your damage, 3) something would otherwise result in a players death somehow (assassins, abilities that need to be interrupted, etc), and so forth.
TLDR; unless you're wiping and/or cc would make clearing more efficient then there's no reason to use it. That said, in Neverwinter most of the cc is embedded in our damage spells anyway which makes a ton of this discussion moot.
I used the maintenance to do dishes, and update part one and two a little. I added some notes concerning bugs and quirks, and a few additional notes concerning T2 epic dungeons in the feats and spell section. I also included alternative perspectives and opinions that came up in the comments to the guide, just to offer the reader a wider spectrum of views.
I have been asked (a lot) for a screenshot of my Powers. I have not included this because I want you to think about the spells that you put points into. If I post a screenshot, people will blindly copy the build without reading the commentary, and while that is not bad, I think if you want to be a competent Control Wizard, it is helpful to know why you choose a spell. I may still add one later. Sorry for being annoying like that.
So the "best" argument you could make is with Icy Terrain, and even then, I'll ask you this: What does a chill stacking ground spawn aoe with low damage have over simply using any other aoe? The times where I've actually tried this in dungeons...I barely felt its impact. I get way more "CC" by killing trash mobs/CC-immuned targets faster with a buggy aoe like Sudden Storm than I ever would Icy Terrain.
Sorry to partially derail the thread, as it really is a great thread about this Renegade build. I still believe that a good player who takes into account all feat paths, feats, powers, races, and the big one: stats on equipment can find a very discernible difference between a CC or a dps focused build. Be seeing you on the pvp battlefield, and as long as 90% of CW are going a dps route that just keeps me happy in there
edited as an afterthought: Come to think of it, given the time I may just go ahead and put up a similar post just for a pvp-oriented CW build. So then everyone can see more clearly the differences of which I speak. I'm in no hurry to do this, but do keep an eye open for it when I can find the time.
A. I played several MMOs and my playstyle has revolved around abusing AOEs, using regular or low MP skills during AOE cooldown, and using good close quarter skills as a get me off. I looked at your build and really looks awesome, but you mentioned something about not regenerating Action points quickly or something? Are Action points like mana? Also, does CW damage depend mostly on Crits for damage? A previous MMO I played (DFO) had a class called a Ranger, who's damage relied solely on about 5 (out of 20) skills, and 70% crit rate. Please tell me CW does not need this T_T.
B. I don't plan to PVP much, if at all, so are there any active/passive skills on the build I should not invest in if i want to go pure PVE?
C. Is the Control Wizard a glass cannon? I haven't even played the game yet, but I already know the guardian weaponmaster (or whatever the name is) is seriously underpowered, so i'm curious if the CW class is at least better than that (I think I'll choose Teifling class btw).
D. Should I follow this build to the letter or can I use a variant once i get the hang of the game?
EDIT: Thanks for responding.
Best form of CC in the game = death.
I don't use this build the OP laid out and I use a build I put myself together, even though it has some mistakes but i'm not respeccing for now, and of ALL the groups I run with epic dungeons and pugs I always ask them what they think of my build and what they like and what they don't like:
All the rogues say they seem to do more damage when they run with me (since I got the stats buff to group talent) and everyone always says they have less problems with adds and the run is simply faster running with me. Why, would you ask?
Because my build is focused completely in DAMAGE. AoE and single target, with Ap regen coupled as much as possible.
CW have ****ty control skills for AoE. Exactly what I said - we have ****ty control skills for AoE. You have a timeframe in bosses and encounters to kill adds before you get overwhelmed. It's simple as that, you either hold the fight down and kill all the stuff during that time frame or you're dead meat.
With that in mind, Controller role in D&D also refers to the reduction in the enemies capabilities of fighting. If you're killing FAST whatever is on your Cleric so he can do his job and RoE whatever your rogue is stabbing, and dealing massive AoE damage (up to now, hopefully Sorcerer and Monk won't be long to come out) trust me, people will like you there.
A. Action points let you use your 'daily' powers, which are sort of like 'the heavy hitter spells'. It can be viewed as mana, in a way, but in this game it's all just cooldown based for most skills and you use AP for the big ones. The AP accumulates as you deal more damage with the regular ones. As far as Crit, it will definitely help if you are after damage my friend. Most gear that gives power (more damage) also gives crit, so if you are going for dps you are likely going to just naturally gear for power/crit.
B. I actually mostly pvp, so I'll leave this one for more pve-centered players
C. The CW does take a lot of damage, with little mitigation. However, the CW can also blink around (teleport) very quickly and up to 3 times in very rapid succession. This means that survivability is very high for a CW who can react and dodge fast. In addition, there is a shield power the CW gets that can help with initial damage taken.
D. Personally I recommend exploring the powers and finding what suits your playstyle. As has been stated here many times, there are several ways to be effective by combining different powers. Ultimately I believe it will boil down to what you enjoy the most, b/c as far as damage goes there are a lot of things to try.
All that being said, you sound like a player who likes to blast out AoE dps as quickly as possible so I'd probably recommend a slight variant of this build that might pick up more of the AP generating abilities. Hope this helps man, cheers!
You bring an excellent point, which is not just CCing but also reducing the enemies' fighting capabilities.
And boy can CWs do this right. A Thaumaturge spec can do CoI (AoE 15% mitigation debuff), RoE (>15% mitigation debuff), 10% defense debuff for 3 secs after each Arcane power with Elemental Empowerment, throw in a Plague Fire Enchantment in your weapon (30% defense debuff at 3 stacks) and you will be considerably amplifying the damage your entire team can put out.
For PvE the only CC power I bother using is Singularity and Chill Strike. I find I'm more useful to the team when focusing on damage and debuffs.
Action Points are used for the Daily Powers, which are basically spells that you can only cast when your Action Points meter is full. It is not like mana. The game doesn't use anything that is like mana and you are only limited by short cooldowns for the Encounter spells and the Daily Powers. At Will spells use no resource and have no cooldown. AP generation is the weak spot of this build, but this sounds worse than it is, especially since at least I don't use the Daily Powers exactly when the AP bubble is full (e.g. no point in using Arcane Singularity when there's two mobs left and you know in the next room is a big group of baddies waiting).
There are no spells that are solely for PvP. You will have many more spells in your book than on your active spell bar, so having situational extras is a good plan. You will have them anyway. If you only put points into what you use at max levels in dungeons, you would have half the points left. You also need to "waste" some points in order to get to the higher tier spells.
The Great Weapon Fighter is only underpowered below level 35. By level 60, in T2 epic dungeons (when the game actually gets harder), the GWF will match a CW's damage and may even trump it. It is a late bloomer and people give up on it too soon. The CW is a wizard, so he's more squishy than a tank, but with all the control spells and the damage, you will rarely get hit. You CAN handle a hit or two, too. It's not as squishy as some mages in other games I have played, but you certainly are less suited for tanking any mobs, unlike the cleric or the GF.
I feel that a CW is essential and almost required in the end game content. It brings control, good damage and debuffing, and it has range. Every class has its place, though. But no, if I played a different class (I am leveling alts!), I would always want a CW with a sense of awareness in my party for T2 dungeons and up. And before that it is also always useful.
Either/or! The build works wonderfully, but I really encourage people to look at the feats and the spells, ideally even consult the tooltips in the game, and think about them. My commentary on spells and feats is meant to offer guidance and starting points for one's own conclusions. There is a room for playstyle preferences and experimentation. I think the feat choices are pretty static with only a few points that can be spent differently (I included notes for those). With the spells there is plenty of room for making own choices.
I hope you'll enjoy your wizard as much as many of us do when you dive into Neverwinter!
Actually, as the discussion has progressed it is being noticed (as mentioned above) that control isn't that good for pve. Taking that under consideration, yes there are control abilities I use in PvP all the time that I would not take to a pve dungeon. Imo, that does mean that those abilities are for PvP. Not that they can't be used in pve, just that they aren't as useful as others.
Thanks for the tips. So AP is basically for your Ultras (for lack of a better word). Now I know there is some freedom for my build I feel a lot more comfortable digging into this game.
A ton more damage for Magic Missile when you are with 20ft of an enemy. Lovely in PvE and PvP. I need to note that monsters in T2 epic dungeons and beyond hit hard, but you will have developed a good feel for the range of Steal Time and the cast time. You should usually get your cast off before anything hits you. Practice teleporting backwards without turning.
I don't like this...magic missile is 80 ft distance...and I usually prefer to stay back...I'd much prefer the other feat that gives me more Action Points to land the big bucks!
It sacrifices a lot of damage, though. You often need to be close anyway for Steal Time, and you want to stand in the cleric's Astral Shield and Hallowed Ground (this one has a wider radius). I think Reaper's Touch is essential, but if another feat works better for you, that's perfectly fine, too!