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The Renegade Control Wizard -- Stats, Feats and Powers (oh my!)

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  • zellistazellista Member Posts: 100 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Yea, you missed a question there :p

    I was wondering if Masterful Arcane Theft's second bonus (additional 5% damage for steal time/ROE per arcane mastery stack) works without a chill stack, since it seems to be an additional affect on chill targets rather than a separate one?

    I personally still feel that Critical Power is better overall though. I don't use ROE that much in PVE (talking about dungeons here, would rather use more aoe CC than resist reduction) and I don't see a point in using Steal Time in PVP. This makes MasterfulAT feel much less useful compared to a higher AP generation rate via Critical Power.
  • olavertyolaverty Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    So, I haven't seen a confirmation in the reply's.. read all the pages etc. What are your views on snap freeze vs malevolent surge. I feel it would be fairly challenging to keep a high up-time on malevolent surge and you would benefit more dps from the snap freeze. Would like your opinion. Also I agree the health is more beneficial than the small gain in action point generation.. later the game goes the more health that gives and at the current moment a little health is good for most fights. Especially with how wonky agro is I seem to be tanking most of the adds on a boss fight and killing them.

    I would also be interested in the Enchants your using and what your gemming currently for defense and utility.
  • violated87violated87 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    @zellista
    From what I can tell the 2 bonuses are not mutually exclusive. I'll try to check when I get home to be sure.

    RoE is probably the best Encounter power we have for single target damage and one of my favorite spells. I usually run tab Chill Strike, Shield/Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Ray of Enfeeblement during trash clears, and then swap RoE to tab for boss fights (unless it's a heavy AOE fight). Honestly, if you're not using RoE, then I would suggest going into the Thaumaturge path instead Renegade, especially if you're making heavy use of Conduit of Ice.


    @olaverty
    That's a tricky question. Snap Freeze is definitely better for bosses and single target damage because you won't be killing things to proc Malevolent Surges. You'll also be using Ice Knife and 20% on that is huge. Snap Freeze can also be more or less useful on trash depending on what powers you are using. The only ice spell I use atm is Chill Strike, but if you like to use Conduit of Ice then you could get more out of this feat (although you would have to be careful about using CoI immediately after a Chill Strike or you won't get the bonus damage).

    On the other hand, Malevolent Surge is really strong on trash clears assuming you can get the KBs on the little minions. Furthermore, most boss fights that I've seen tend to have trash adds spawning during the encounters. A lot of them spawn archers or other weak minions at a slow and steady rate that you could take upon yourself to kill for the group and get a lot of uptime on the buff. There's more potential with MS if you are a skilled player, as you can time your dailies (especially Ice Knife) around killing a few of those spawns and then dropping an Ice Knife with a 30% damage bonus (even better than Snap Freeze). As you mentioned, on a lot of boss fights you end up killing adds anyway (I'm planning on taking MS myself).
  • notdrizztnotdrizzt Member Posts: 123 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    Good build, but honestly the Drow is so good it should be the #1 race PERIOD. DF is beneficial for your entire team and for some reason always applies...
  • ashkedawnashkedawn Member Posts: 113 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    so end game, highest level....what are your stats at?
  • makerpwnzmakerpwnz Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Is this build for pvp or pve ? Thanks ! sorry if it was already answered i just dont want to read 10pages:D im lazy:( Thx for answer :p
  • zellistazellista Member Posts: 100 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    violated87 wrote: »
    @zellista
    From what I can tell the 2 bonuses are not mutually exclusive. I'll try to check when I get home to be sure.

    RoE is probably the best Encounter power we have for single target damage and one of my favorite spells. I usually run tab Chill Strike, Shield/Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Ray of Enfeeblement during trash clears, and then swap RoE to tab for boss fights (unless it's a heavy AOE fight). Honestly, if you're not using RoE, then I would suggest going into the Thaumaturge path instead Renegade, especially if you're making heavy use of Conduit of Ice.


    @olaverty
    That's a tricky question. Snap Freeze is definitely better for bosses and single target damage because you won't be killing things to proc Malevolent Surges. You'll also be using Ice Knife and 20% on that is huge. Snap Freeze can also be more or less useful on trash depending on what powers you are using. The only ice spell I use atm is Chill Strike, but if you like to use Conduit of Ice then you could get more out of this feat (although you would have to be careful about using CoI immediately after a Chill Strike or you won't get the bonus damage).

    I barely use Conduit, although I might try it out if I were to respec to Thaumaturge. CoI has about the same/less aoe range as tabbed chill strike, and does pretty decent damage, but the fact that you have to wait for the hits to stack make it seem bad to me, compared to the other choices of AoE I can use (storm surge, Shard of Endless Avalanche, Steal Time, tabbed chill strike, shield).

    When solo questing (1-60, foundry at end game mostly) I use Tabbed CS, EF, ST, Shield/SS. In dungeons I typically use Tabbed CS, SoEA, ST, Shield/SS. There's almost no way I'll give up on tabbed CS for dungeons, especially for something like CoI (unless . At best I might swap in Repel for AoE push CC. CoI on its own with the Thaumaturge last feat it might be worth using though, replacing either SoEA or Shield/SS. Though this means giving up on the prone CC from SoEA, or protection + push from shield. SS seems pretty irrelavant ever since i found out that it currently does not benefit from Eye of the Storm (probably a bug), and it provides no CC/other benefits like shield or SoEA anyway. Of course, when I'm solo-questing and I come across a boss that is immune to CC, I'll swap in RoE and CoI/IR for additional DPS.

    Only reason why I am even considering respecing to Thaumaturge is that Chaos Magic seems to override itself whenever it procs one of the effects, which seems to make it kinda a waste atm, unless you choose to stop casting AM when the effect you want procs and DPS with another at-will. On the other hand, Assailing Force is a fixed, 100% chance/rate of 15% mitigation on a semi-decent aoe skill.

    Only issue now though, is that I find Power Critical, Reaper's Touch, Nightmare Wizardry, Tempest Magic and Snap Freeze to be must-haves for me. This highly favors the Renegade tree.
  • imivoimivo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,682 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    makerpwnz wrote: »
    Is this build for pvp or pve ? Thanks ! sorry if it was already answered i just dont want to read 10pages:D im lazy:( Thx for answer :p

    It's mostly from a PvE perspective, however, feats-wise the differences between a PvE and a PvP renegade wizard are minimal. It's much more about the spells that you use, and I covered PvP usage and suitability in the section that discusses the powers/spells.

    Oppressor is the "actual" PvP paragon path, but people who have tried it seemed to mostly feel that it's not as efficient as renegade. I may at some point level up an oppressor from scratch, but just looking at the paragon feats, I think I'll probably prefer renegade for PvP too. I just enjoy how this type of wizard "feels" and plays. It's a bit like a nova sorceress back in D2, before 1.10. It's fast, on the edge, heaps of damage, fireworks all over. :)

    @ashkedawn: Depends on the gear! I can take a screenshot of my current stats later and post it. My GS is a bit below 9k, which definitely isn't the end of the ladder. It's just T2 level.
    Unsure about skills and feats? Check the Master List of Class Builds!
  • imivoimivo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,682 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    zellista wrote: »
    In dungeons I typically use Tabbed CS, SoEA, ST, Shield/SS. There's almost no way I'll give up on tabbed CS for dungeons, especially for something like CoI (unless . At best I might swap in Repel for AoE push CC.

    I need to experiment a bit more with SoEA. I don't use shield in dungeons, and at least up to T2 I don't feel it's worth the slot. I would like to use it, but Encounter slots are limited. My basic setup in groups is tabbed CS, Steal Time, EF, and CoI. I'll report on SoEA. Of my setup, CoI is the only candidate for possible replacement. More on this soon!
    Unsure about skills and feats? Check the Master List of Class Builds!
  • makerpwnzmakerpwnz Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    imivo wrote: »
    It's mostly from a PvE perspective, however, feats-wise the differences between a PvE and a PvP renegade wizard are minimal. It's much more about the spells that you use, and I covered PvP usage and suitability in the section that discusses the powers/spells.

    Oppressor is the "actual" PvP paragon path, but people who have tried it seemed to mostly feel that it's not as efficient as renegade. I may at some point level up an oppressor from scratch, but just looking at the paragon feats, I think I'll probably prefer renegade for PvP too. I just enjoy how this type of wizard "feels" and plays. It's a bit like a nova sorceress back in D2, before 1.10. It's fast, on the edge, heaps of damage, fireworks all over. :)

    @ashkedawn: Depends on the gear! I can take a screenshot of my current stats later and post it. My GS is a bit below 9k, which definitely isn't the end of the ladder. It's just T2 level.

    ok so i go same feats for pvp i guess, since there is no other guide for pvp. thanks:/
  • imivoimivo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,682 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    You CAN look at the tooltips of the feats (of the ones I didn't take) and see if some of them sound better than the ones I have chosen, for PvP. Don't just copy my build, try to make it your own and customize it to meet your preferences :) I think Toughness is a good max-out candidate for PvP (as it is a % increase and the PvP gear has plenty of extra HP on it), though admittedly that is the only chance I'd make, and I'd use the 3 extra points that humans get to max that and Prestidigitation. The paragon feats are fine the way they are. For PvP I would prefer human over tiefling.
    Unsure about skills and feats? Check the Master List of Class Builds!
  • sevitan1sevitan1 Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    imivo wrote: »
    You CAN look at the tooltips of the feats (of the ones I didn't take) and see if some of them sound better than the ones I have chosen, for PvP. Don't just copy my build, try to make it your own and customize it to meet your preferences :) I think Toughness is a good max-out candidate for PvP (as it is a % increase and the PvP gear has plenty of extra HP on it), though admittedly that is the only chance I'd make, and I'd use the 3 extra points that humans get to max that and Prestidigitation. The paragon feats are fine the way they are. For PvP I would prefer human over tiefling.

    I think tiefling is still way better for PvP. Giving up 5% damage on targets below 50% HP and overall 2% damage or crit does not seem worth it for those 3 feats and 3% defenses. The power lowering passive is just icing.

    Feat wise, the only real change would be replacing Malevolent Surge since it won't be much use in PvP. Probably for Snap Freeze for the extra spike damage since chill is the only cold spell worth using in PVP when speced Renegade.
  • barutxbarutx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 4
    edited May 2013
    imivo send power skill link please
  • ryan1755ryan1755 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Power / Critical / Armor Penetration

    Hey I have a question about these 3 stats. I know Power is most likely the greater of the three. But do you have an idea as to how much more powerful ?

    Let's say I have an item equipped with +20 Power and I find an item with +48 Armor Penetration. Which of these is more DPS? Does Armor Penetration even work with spells?

    And where does Critical Strike stand ? Is +30 Critical more effective then say +20 Power?

    I know this is a hard question but maybe you have a little more insight then me. I've only been playing for 24 hours ^_^



    Thanks,

    Ryan R.
  • ashkedawnashkedawn Member Posts: 113 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I have the same questions as ryan...no idea about armor penetration with spells, or if critical works for spells, and which of the three is more important or more dps.
  • yummydownontheseyummydownonthese Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    imivo wrote: »
    Part 3: Miscellaneous


    Companions

    For dungeons and group PvE, the Cat is by far the best companion. It gives you +225 Critical Chance and Recovery, but this is not what makes it so fantastic. You can give it a ring, a necklace and a belt, and the stats on these items are added to yours. That ring with +300 Power that you give the Cat? That is +300 Power for you. It's basically like wearing three rings, two necklaces and two belts! (Not all stats transfer, +HP for example does not.) Stats from runes (two offensive, one defense) also transfer directly to you. If you use an Eldritch runestone in the defensive slot ("Owner gains x% of the pet's stats"), the built-in bonuses to Critical Chance and Recovery that the Cat gives you are appropriately increased. This does not affect the bonuses from the ring/necklace/belt that you give to the Cat.

    This is the best 960k AD that you will spend on your Control Wizard. If you get it early, leveling it won't be such a pain. It is a non-combat companion and cannot be killed. (Cryptic likes cats, unlike other companies -- remember what always happened to Mr. Bigglesworth in that other game?)

    While leveling, I used the Cleric. She doesn't last very long at higher levels, but her heals are percentage-based, so she is still useful. I still used her at level 60 for doing Foundry Quests. Once my gear improved and I was able to nuke monsters more quickly, I switched to using the Phoera for its extra AoE damage (this would also be my second choice for dungeons, if you are not ready to buy the Cat yet). The nice thing about the Phoera when soloing is that it draws "aggro" and manages to off-tank monsters for a bit. It's not a tank, but it allows you to free-cast for a bit. It's fairly affordable in the AH at the time of writing (below 300k AD). I also like my wolf, but that is just because I had him since the very early levels. :)

    The max you can get for those is 8.5% of the pets stats. It's MUCH, MUCH more beneficial to just give the pet a runestone with the stats you want because you will get 100% of whatever stat you put on it.
  • barutxbarutx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 4
    edited May 2013
    i search good cw build link, please help me. i am not good in english
  • ploppyblopploppyblop Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Bitter Cold is probably better than Snap Freeze or Malevolent Surge in PvP, since MTA encourages me to use Ray of Frost right before popping my encounters anyway. I don't find Snap Freeze reliable in hectic pillar fights or (worst case scenario) when grouped with another wizard in a pug group.

    Besides, what exactly would a Snap Freeze/MTA build do when RoE comes off cooldown X seconds before Chill Strike and your target isn't chilled? Sacrificing the MTA boost only makes sense if both you and your target will still be alive and in combat with each other in X seconds, otherwise you'd be better off appling chill immediately and losing the SF boost.
    Besides the obvious problem of forcing you to give up a buff you spent five feat points on, that kind of snap decision doesn't seem like fun to me.

    I wonder if Blighting Power would be worth it in a Bitter Cold build. Three points in BP give almost the same bonus as three points in Snap Freeze without all the hassle of having to avoid chilling somebody. However, since Learned Spellcaster actually does give +5% total damage, I don't think you'd have the feat points to spare.
  • f0rbezf0rbez Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    This is AWESOME. Thanks alot!!
  • barutxbarutx Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 4
    edited May 2013
    I want to reset my powers and feats, I need good power skill, who can help me, I've searched google not found, please go than if the screenshots, inivo skillung has good but not as a screenshot,
    google translator is over-written sorry
  • epiz0rsepiz0rs Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    what would be your end game lvl 60 ability stats?
  • elyrielleelyrielle Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    The max you can get for those is 8.5% of the pets stats. It's MUCH, MUCH more beneficial to just give the pet a runestone with the stats you want because you will get 100% of whatever stat you put on it.

    Thing is, that's a defensive slot. Not a stat group most wizards really care too much about.
  • vespirkavespirka Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    So finally, Learned spellcaster now actually gives you clear 5% of damage, which is more benefitial than Prestidigitation (uh i wrote it), for final damage output? Or still you consider 3% for all party is better?

    The thing is, that 3% arp + 3% power + 3% crit + 3% recovery might be better than 5% damage, or i'm missing something, but there's some lack of points anyways

    And finally, as for SoEA - i pretty much liked that spell after using it for some time, it has a nice bonus - from the start of the battle you can just put that rock near you and to get Arcane stacks while using some other spells, and often boss fights have their adds spawned like 5-8 secs after the start so it comes time to throw it, after doing its work on your stacks.
  • imivoimivo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,682 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    The max you can get for those is 8.5% of the pets stats. It's MUCH, MUCH more beneficial to just give the pet a runestone with the stats you want because you will get 100% of whatever stat you put on it.

    A elyrielle mentioned, it goes into the defensive slot, and I value 8.5% more crit and recovery (of the cat's bonus) higher than +defense or +deflection (and what else is in this group). What would you put in there instead, and why?
    Unsure about skills and feats? Check the Master List of Class Builds!
  • imivoimivo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1,682 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    vespirka wrote: »
    So finally, Learned spellcaster now actually gives you clear 5% of damage, which is more benefitial than Prestidigitation (uh i wrote it), for final damage output? Or still you consider 3% for all party is better?

    I've been pondering this since the fix, too, and also had a couple discussions it it with people in the game. It's a bit of a trade off, really. What I would like is 20 free respec tokens. :) More on this soon, but I'm also curious what others think about this.
    Unsure about skills and feats? Check the Master List of Class Builds!
  • ryathhryathh Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Just wanted to say I really appreciated this post. Good information.
  • notdrizztnotdrizzt Member Posts: 123 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    imivo check the CM bug thread.

    Tempest Magic does not stack with the Tiefling racial.

    Just got done testing this before the servers went down. Will test some more but it looks to be correct.

    Jeez this game is so **** buggy!
  • violated87violated87 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    In light of that bugs thread I think the obvious class passives are Arcane Presence and Eye of the Storm for most people, with Storm Spell as the only alternative. The other options are:

    Chilling Presence - requires using Icy Terrain or tab CoI to stack chill on multiple targets; doesn't work at all on bosses due to chill being instantly removed
    Evocation - doesn't affect lots of bread and butter AOE skills such as tab Chill Strike, CoI, or Sudden Storm
    **Storm Spell - ??? I don't know if this is worth considering or not**
    Orb of Imposition - no added damage, but if you want the added CC then go for it
    Storm Fury - no one wants to be below half health for this

    Also as a Tiefling I can't pick up Tempest Magic due to that bug, which leaves me with my last 5 points into either Snap Freeze or Reaper's Touch/Critical power (depending on which I take initially).


    **Need to check if Storm Spell adds enough extra damage to offset the 15% damage loss on Ice Knife and/or Chill Strikes (potentially replace Chill Strike with some other Encounter spell?)


    Also seems that Sudden Storm doesn't crit or only crits for a small amount. I usually run tab Chill Strike, Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Ray of Enfeeblement, but I've swapped out Sudden Storm for Shield before in the past and just been careful with Pushes or used them during AS's. May need to explore that more.
  • notdrizztnotdrizzt Member Posts: 123 Bounty Hunter
    edited May 2013
    violated87 wrote: »

    Also seems that Sudden Storm doesn't crit or only crits for a small amount. I usually run tab Chill Strike, Sudden Storm, Steal Time, and Ray of Enfeeblement, but I've swapped out Sudden Storm for Shield before in the past and just been careful with Pushes or used them during AS's. May need to explore that more.

    Sudden Storm does not crit, and it's damage is buggy. It only does about 70% of its listed damage. Try it out for yourself in the combat dummy by the PvP vendor.
  • astralforgeastralforge Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 39
    edited May 2013
    This build is only 'okay' for pve. And because this build goes for damage, really it's only good for trying to top damage charts in pve. Mostly I pvp as a CW, and this build would have lots of trouble in pvp. Not saying that this build is supposed to be for pvp or anything, because obviously it is not. But if it IS for pve, why stat for dps when the group really needs you there for control? I mean really, the class is called Control Wizard. So if you are a team player, shouldn't you pay more attention to control?

    I am not sure if it is just players wanting to top dps charts (which is not being a team player) or players just not willing to accept the fact that CW is designed to be a support class, but in either case I don't see the value of a dps only CW build. Please enlighten me.
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