tintindigikidMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Following the build. Right around level 34 is where your tanking ability skyrockets when you get threatening rush and you have better threat control of aoe mobs.
Also, any word on 5/5 Armor of Bahamut vs. 5/5 Shield Defense? What have you guys taken?
Wouldnt a second threatening rush after enforced threat be kinda wasted since enforced threat already marks everything?
Also, do into the fray en enforced threat really recovery your guard meter? I doesnt seem to do anything at all for my meter atleast.
The first threatening rush gets me to the mobs before anybody else. Things are harder to manage if you don't get there first. While you can block mid animation on Enforced Threat, I find that I sometimes take one or two shots when it doesn't work correctly / I lag / I goof up - which drops the marks on those mobs, and I've gotten in the habit of doing Threatening Rush again just to keep it clean. You can block during the Threatening Rush animation, and it will end right into guard.
And yes, it does. Not in one big chunk, which is probably what you are looking for, but a steady increase in guard meter. If you are still taking shots, it can be hard to see the increases. But with Into the Fray - > Enforced Threat, I can go from broken to full in a matter of a couple seconds.
Following the build. Right around level 34 is where your tanking ability skyrockets when you get threatening rush and you have better threat control of aoe mobs.
Also, any word on 5/5 Armor of Bahamut vs. 5/5 Shield Defense? What have you guys taken?
Thanks
There was a Perfect World person saying that shield defense was working as intended in one of the other threads here, that immediately got a bunch of screenshots showing otherwise. As of yesterday at 3pm they had this to say:
"Hey guys, quick update. We have identified what was broken with this particular feat and we are currently working on a fix!"
With it fixed, I would go with that. Armor of Bahamut is okay, but not great. Extra AC/defense is nice. Since I doubt they are giving anybody free respecs and I've already blown one putting this guide together, I have Shield Defense currently.
Edit: And ya, Threatening Rush makes this build. Once you get that, your level of control over encounters jumps exponentially. Glad it's working for you!
And yes, it does. Not in one big chunk, which is probably what you are looking for, but a steady increase in guard meter. If you are still taking shots, it can be hard to see the increases. But with Into the Fray - > Enforced Threat, I can go from broken to full in a matter of a couple seconds.
Ok, I was thinking that these were bugged, I was expecting it to be as visable as tide of iron/shield slam but you are saying that they recover shield over time instead of immediately like tide of iron/shield slam does?
tibberton1 Nice build you have there, This helped me alot making the right choices.
But i still have one question about the feats.
Im currently lvl 36 with the same feats i still have 3 heroic points left. Its a shame not to distribute them, but i have no clue where i should put them.
I thought about the Strengt focus (wich is in your build 2/3)
Did you forgot to add an feat to this list or was this on purpose?
As I put points into Shield Defense I watched my AC go up on the character screen.
Also I've considered doing 3/3 Trample the Fallen and going with my last 10 Points into Tactician and grab Trample the Fallen with Battle Trample. Basically any time the mob is CC'd and you attack it you would gain 15% more damage as well as deal 25% of your weapon damage and gain 25% of weapon damage in threat. For trash packs (which are really the only thing that gets CC'd) you could give up Shield Talent (since you really aren't guarding on most trash packs as is) and instead go for this to keep aggro on you in between CC's.
Not sure yet though. The Wrathful Warrior also seems interesting because there's many ways to get temporary HP (I always seem to have them) so 15% additional damage/threat wouldn't be bad at all considering how tanky everything else is and it'd work on all encounters not just temporary ones.
tibberton1 Nice build you have there, This helped me alot making the right choices.
But i still have one question about the feats.
Im currently lvl 36 with the same feats i still have 3 heroic points left. Its a shame not to distribute them, but i have no clue where i should put them.
I thought about the Strengt focus (wich is in your build 2/3)
Did you forgot to add an feat to this list or was this on purpose?
Ok, I was thinking that these were bugged, I was expecting it to be as visable as tide of iron/shield slam but you are saying that they recover shield over time instead of immediately like tide of iron/shield slam does?
Hello ! I'm new in the world of Neverwinter and I wanted to ask what kind of stats are needed for a full on Tank Guardian Fighter ? (Deff ? Life Steal ? Recov ? )
tintindigikidMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
While I was browsing the neverwinter reddit forum, I saw a post making a second comparison about T2 epic dungeons between yours and Rokuthy's hybrid tanking build
The current Meta is all DPS on the boss while the Cleric kites adds. Therefore, if you bring a full tank GF you're just bringing less DPS and youll need the other DPS to carry your slack.
Rothusky also made an update on his build stating that endgame all a GF currently is doing is keeping aggro and dpsing the boss. The dmg boost from the conqueror tree and threatening rush is enough to keep aggro.
Would you like to give a third opinion on the tanking meta for endgame?
While I was browsing the neverwinter reddit forum, I saw a post making a second comparison about T2 epic dungeons between yours and Rokuthy's hybrid tanking build
Rothusky also made an update on his build stating that endgame all a GF currently is doing is keeping aggro and dpsing the boss. The dmg boost from the conqueror tree and threatening rush is enough to keep aggro.
Would you like to give a third opinion on the tanking meta for endgame?
Wow, there's a loaded question if I ever saw one.
I guess I have a couple of thoughts, in no particular order.
1. Rokuthy is a couple dungeons ahead of me. He said that he has one epic dungeon and Castle Never left. I haven't seen any confirmation of Epic's progress, only that as he understands it - full protection is lacking at the tip top of dungeon clears. So, to be very frank, if you want your advice from the most progressed of the three of us, I would go with Rokuthy. That said...
2. I was exceedingly clear about what this guide was, what it wasn't, and who it was intended for. I have a guild that I haven't run a dungeon with yet because I sometimes can play at 3am, and sometimes can play at 11am - I have precisely zero play time during peak hours (as stated at the very beginning of the guide). Every dungeon that I have cleared has been a pug. Bad luck with drops (I've gotten 1 'drop' - everything else has been purchased with marks and snagged out of the chest at the end of delve events) and limited game time (if I'm lucky I get 1 dungeon run a day) have kept me from progressing further. That said...
3. I have had zero problems whatsoever with any group. Even add heavy fights have been perfectly fine.
4. We're talking about the meta of a game in "open beta" (soft release, release, whatever you want to call it), that has been up and running officially for 13 days. Granted, the time to level cap in this game is exceedingly low, but there are members of my guild and friends list that haven't hit cap yet. Additionally, there really hasn't been time for them to assess and adjust the end game based on actual people actually playing it. Every MMO I've ever played has been continuously balanced - if they see that protection needs love, it will happen. In fact, I've been pleasantly surprised at just how responsive Cryptic has been so far.
5. I'm not big on flavor of the month, especially not in MMO's. If I could tear down my build and recreate it through easier means, sure maybe. But I don't have much free time to do dailies to earn AD - I'm lucky if my schedule allows me to complete more than foundry dailies. And I don't have $6 to burn frequently, trying to follow the latest nerfs, buffs, adjustments, and tweaks. I made a build that seemed reasonable for the long term, and I still believe this is that. If I'm wrong, I think there's bigger issues at play here (skill trees that aren't viable, poor dungeon design, etc.).
6. I'm under no delusions about the limitations of this build / playstyle, as evidenced by my quotes below:
Right off the bat, let's get this established: their builds are going to be significantly better for PvP.
Also, I do foundry and solo content with this build, but it is a little slow.
This build is (in many ways) overkill
It is made for those who queue up for dungeons and skirmishes by themselves, and cannot be sure of the quality of their future group mates. (Translation - you are not going to be in the top X% of content clearing)
There are other options out there, two very good ones listed at the top of my post. This is not in any way, shape or form the definitive guide. But if you find yourself in a similar position as me, my sincere hope is that this build will serve you reliably. (I had a target audience, and folks getting ready to clear Castle Never with a pre-made guild group are not part of that target audience)
This is like a bomb dropped on me, while I love full tank specc and I love being durable. I don't like being deadweight in later end dungeons. This will mostlikely force me to respec.
This is like a bomb dropped on me, while I love full tank specc and I love being durable. I don't like being deadweight in later end dungeons. This will mostlikely force me to respec.
I personally haven't hit a point yet where I'm deadweight, and I have T1's on farm (even still missing gear). In fact, as of a couple days ago, both Envy and Rokuthy thought this would be the best build for T2 and Castle Never - it looks like the last couple of dungeons up the adds on bosses to an obnoxious level, which caused both to swing back to full DPS / hybrid DPS builds.
If you go over to Rokuthy's guide, you can see that he calls for adjustments that would make this build more viable and stable. Right now, tanks aren't "needed" in groups - you have to figure that's going to be changed and modified.
Unless you are at the very end of T2's, this build works - as little as three days ago, Rokuthy himself was using this build and reviewed it as such: "I'm actually specced differently at the moment specifically for T2 dungeon tanking. Tanked a few today, the spec felt good." And I know for most solo tanks that PuG their groups (again the intended audience as stated up front), this is a very serviceable build that will get you through T1's with less than zero issues.
I go back to 13 days, not being nearly enough time to properly judge the endgame that Neverwinter is going to implement long term.
I haven't read past where you said " flat hp is always 'meh' worthy "
On a tank?! That seems completely counter intuitive to me. I'm sure you have a reason for saying this though...
I will keep reading but also wanted to bump this for you again
In most games, thoughness is better than hitpoints because it is MUCH easier for the healer.
If you have (say) 10,000 hitpoins and get hit for 500 every second, you need 30,000 heals.
If you have 8,000 hitpoints and only get hit 400 every second, you only need 24,000 heals.
In some games, you can get away with the first option, because the healers have HUGE heals, fully restoring your health and such. In this game not, here most heals are small heals, there are few 'flash heals.
There are more elements to the discussion, but in most games, thougness >>> hitpoints.
To clear the air here, I think Venore's guide is solid. His spec is great (I disagree with his views on HP vs. Effective HP, but that's neither here nor there) for what it is. For T1 content, this build works perfectly fine because there aren't any true DPS checks. The fights are more about sustainability and control. You aren't facing situations where you're going to eventually be overrun with adds and wipe if your DPS isn't high enough, so you can get away with a full tank build.
My group was having a few issues as we transitioned into T2's - we weren't playing Neverwinter the way the current state of the game calls for it to be played. I'm trying not to spoil anything specifically, so I'm staying vague on that point because I know a lot of people don't look at content that's coming up before they get there. So in those first few T2 runs, I had specced into more of a full tank role because that's what I thought was needed. I thought our issue was an issue that had to do with a lack of control. I specced into the variation that I posted about 3 days before Venore posted his guide. It just happened to be so close to my spec that I posted the variation of it that I was using, mainly to point out that I still value HP.
However, after those T2 runs, we came to the conclusion that control wasn't the issue with our group. It was pure, unbridled DPS. Outside of a few gimmicky situations, most of the T2 content after Epic Pirates simply requires pure DPS. A couple of the checks are incredibly tight - there aren't hard enrages like other games - but there are definitely soft enrages in terms of just not being able to handle adds anymore. As I said before, there are some gimmicks in a couple of fights that you can pull off to alleviate that, but for the most part, you just want raw DPS in your group.
The full protection spec doesn't bring the DPS required to be successful on some of these boss fights, and that's just the way it is. Now I'm sure there are exceptions out there - there are probably (and eventually no matter what, there will be) groups out there that can easily carry a cleric and a full protection tank to victory because they're just that good. For most groups, today, that just isn't the case. I mean, I did 25.2 million damage in a Spellplague instance today - I'm able to put out those numbers with nearly 48% damage reduction from AC/Defense, I have 20% deflect, 34k HP. I mean, I don't know how else to say it. I tank as well as a full protection tank, I probably control situations BETTER due to the amount of DPS I put out - I have no aggro issues, AND I bring the DPS of another CW/Rogue to the group. It's just a no brainer as to what is best in the CURRENT (<--- current) state of the game.
I've said this somewhere else, in a reply somewhere - what they need to do to make full protection tanking viable in this game is this:
Lower the amount of adds that spawn in boss fights, make the adds dangerous enough that they need to be killed, but not so bad that you need a tank on them fulltime (perfect job for a GWF). Increase the amount of damage that the actual bosses themselves do by a substantial amount. Honestly the bosses would need to be buffed to the point that if the tank lost aggro on that boss, someone was going to die. That would give the GF a clear cut job in groups. However, ask yourselves if that's really the game you want to play. Do you want to be forced to have a GF at all times in order to clear content? As it stands right now, group make ups are flexible. No GF? No problem - just bring another DPS to cover it. But on the other side of that coin is this: oh, you're a GF? Well then you better be putting out some numbers otherwise there's no point in bringing you along.
Just food for thought.
Just to make it clear one more time, this guide is wonderful. It's well written and the information is accurate. If the overall paradigm of PvE content shifts into more of a holy trinity type setup, then this will be one of the go to builds for GF's out there interested in PvE. If it doesn't change, then I'm sorry but this build just isn't viable at the highest end of T2's at the moment until DPS becomes so geared that they can carry a tank specced GF through the content. And that makes me sad, because I do enjoy tanking - at the same time though, I'm loving my GF right now as I've been purely DPS in most games.
Play my foundry campaign, Vermilion: Spirit of Gevaudan. The first quest, The Desperate Messenger is now available @ NWS-DM44FZM2W
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tintindigikidMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Thank you for taking the time to post detailed replies from both authors. I had read both guides and read Rothusky's full reply on page 7 and I guess I missed it but the point which I understand now is the following:
The tanking meta so to speak is for complete endgame T2 dungeons.
With that being said, I am going to stick with the turtle tanking build since I am only level 41 and I have miles to go before facing endgame dungeons. Not to mention the fact that the build indeed works for any dungeon for trash and boss+ads control. If I am forced to switch at the end then I have better ways of making AD than trying it now. Being level 41, I have no way to put out sheer amounts of dps in hopes to keep threat control.
Also, this lets me actually play and enjoy the role of a tank if my group is indeed able to carry it.
One minor modification to the build I have decided to try is the following:
Trash mobs (Not during a boss)
Passives: Switching out Shield talent for 1pt in Combat Superiority
At-Will: Switching out Tides of iron for Cleave
I am fairly newb so bear with me please - the tanks tab move mark
I have a question about how that works when you want to just hold tons of mobs
threatening rush marks all targets in a aoe - so when you are pulling a ton of adds
do you want to be spamming threatening rush with your aoe spells since I assume that it gets
the threat bonus from your passive in the power tree just like how pressing tab also grants marks that passive
and for single target you just want to be marking and hitting the shield slam move a lot?
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dral1313Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Feels like tanking doesn't really matter at all with the current state of the game, I'd also prefer to be a tank but its just worse for the group if you aren't doing as much damage as possible.
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darthannonMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited May 2013
Damage Mitigation > Flat HP any day of the week. No matter what game, if it has damage mitigation, and you are a tank, but select flat HP instead... Then the laws of gaming state that you could be sued for professional misconduct
Think of it this way: if you're gaining a flat amount, it's worth the most point for point to someone with the lowest possible health. For a tank, a flat amount gained is negligible in most cases compared to the massive amount of HP we tend to have almost by default. If it was a percentage gain then an argument could be made for picking it up, as it would provide significantly more HP to those of us looking to be as tough as possible.
See what I'm getting at?
Sorry it has taken me several days to get back to this discussion...
...I understand what you're saying, and hadn't thought about it that way at all. My tendency to want to grab hp where and whenever I can is an instinct from tanking in other games. I haven't made it past the L30-ish point in this game yet so I don't have a clear idea of how late game content works. I can see why a flat chunk of HP would become less and less significant as the tank leveled higher as well.
I've figured out what the 'counter-intuitive' part is for me as well - the bonus/ability under scrutiny isn't actually a 'flat' amount. It looks like it would scale. The statement I had quoted originally was in reference to Toughness which is a percentage (3% per point up to 9%) based feat but I don't know if the hp gained are calculated before things such as CON come into the picture. Either way its just a semantics issue hehe.
To tell the truth I am still learning 4th edition and am pretty lost mechanics-wise, even with simple things like stat bonuses. I will assume that things like HP gear does not factor into the calculation.
Still, the idea that 'HP are god' is a hard mentality to break, and since we are talking 3 points and whether or not Toughness is worth it, I guess then the question would be where those points would be better spent. I guess I don't really understand what would contribute to survivability the most: Hit Points vs. Defense score (mitigation of damage instead of soaking it) -or- Hit Points vs. Damage output (the ability to end the battle faster).
Either way, the guide and this whole thread has been really helpful for me as a newb, and I hope that my earlier post wasn't misinterpreted as an attack or anything since I really just wanted to spark discussion and hopefully learn more while I am at it.
Damage Mitigation > Flat HP any day of the week. No matter what game, if it has damage mitigation, and you are a tank, but select flat HP instead... Then the laws of gaming state that you could be sued for professional misconduct
I agree, in almost all cases this is true. I can only think of a few circumstances in which having an extremely high HP total might be as much or more benefit than mitigation (across games as well...in a general way at least).
Fighting spell-casters or boss mobs that have spells or spell effects that do a huge amount of burst damage (breath weapons might fit in here as well). Again I am generalizing a lot, especially because I really don't know if there are a lot of these type of attacks in this game (late or endgame).
Typically mitigating damage from huge explody-type spells/attacks would rest on saving throws or magic resistance, but I don't know if either of these are mechanics in Neverwinter (or 4th ed. D&D?). If a 'typical' tank build doesn't have the means to dodge or resist a gigantic cloud of poison or a lightning bolt to the nose then said tank may well have to fall back on raw HP (a lot of them) to see them through.
Does that make sense?
It remains to be seen (at least by me) what forms high non-melee burst damage will occur. Looking forward to finding out, but not knowing I still feel like stockpiling HP and HP gear can probably save me a few deaths.
Obviously though your take on mitigation being > than raw hp is pretty universal - and a dedicated healing cleric would probably thank you for armoring up and saving them spell-juice, not to mention healing a HUGE hp pool that drains fast (due to lack of mitigation skill or gear) is the most annoying healing experience there is. I would use DDO barbarians as an example of a heal sink but I don't know if I should admit to playing that game here
atomicoxyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
Nice guide, thanks (:
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crozenfoxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
And what do you think about the GF Conqueror build spe damage for getting more threat and longer ?
What's the best build to have maximum threat ? this Venore's guide ?
The choice between strength, armor, and toughness only comes up if you are doing the turtle build. If you are doing a DPS build, you'll be skipping the tier 1 blocking talent, which will have you spend points in both strength and toughness. In the turtle build, HP is significantly less necessary because your shield is taking so much incoming damage. In a DPS build, you're face tanking more damage, which would increase the need for HP. The builds and their purpose match up well when it comes to this choice.
Furthermore, I hit the point where turtle build is a liability, and have swapped to something closer to the Hybrid build. I don't have the three extra points that Rokuthy has so it doesn't match up completely - amongst other minor differences.
With a DPS build, your damage goes up (duh). I am working on my playstyle right now and swapping out some gear, so I'm a little behind the 8 ball in two ways. 1 - my non core armor pieces are overtuned for mitigation and lacking in damage; 2 - I am having to rehaul my playstyle, and habit changes are always fun! But back to the damage. More specifically, what the damage means:
Turtle Build, trash: all mobs on you, controlled, debuffed, standing in one spot while your DPS brings them down. Turtle Build, boss: full mob control and boss control, everything debuffed, mostly standing in one spot while your DPS kills adds and then whittles boss.
This will be a strong build for leveling, and a strong build for T1 and early T2 content. It does reach a point, where the adds that come with the boss are too much for your mitigation or too much for your control. Then you wipe. That's the point Rokuthy reached about 5/6 days before I did.
DPS Build, trash: trash explodes, nothing had a chance to threaten anybody in the group DPS Build, boss: depending on the specific boss, you either burn the boss quicker or you burn the adds quicker, making it an overall safer fight
Every once in awhile, on a one big threatening mob / many trash mobs encounter (read: every boss), I need to bring shield up and stab over it for some quick "snap" like threat. By and large, I've been gathering everything up with Enforced Threat and cleaving my heart out. Updating guide to reflect this.
A Guardian Fighter Blog:
guardianfighter.com
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oreoz2573Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Feels like tanking doesn't really matter at all with the current state of the game, I'd also prefer to be a tank but its just worse for the group if you aren't doing as much damage as possible.
That largely depends on the skill of the group, namely their ability to position themselves correctly.
A group's ability to dish out DPS with the best of them is only as good as their ability to stay alive long enough to do so. This can be difficult if the boss is all over the place instead of centered on one target: your tank.
Tanking is perfectly viable in this game and the types of groups that take one either aren't concerned with how long it takes them to clear the content in question as long as its done efficienty or prefer to maintain an element of control during boss encounters. It's usually a combo of the two.
For all the CC a CW has, it means nothing to a boss. Better to use it on adds and let the tank handle the beasty. It's just better.
Now I won't deny that content can be roflstopped without a tank and if more and more groups are able to do it this way (at epics, mind you) then I fully support a fix of some type to make tanks a quality asset.
As it stands tanking is just fine. The mindset of the players is what needs adjusting.
"If you're going through Hell, keep going." -Winston Churchill
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radiator017Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That's awesome buddy, thank you very much !
Could you please take a picture of your feats, like Rokuthy did ?
It would be easier for me, since my game client is not in english, that'd be great !
You ention that after Into the Fray and ET that you guard is almost full again... Really? I've never noticed that big an impact on my guard regen from ET or I2tF. Maybe someone could explain how they influence guard regen? Does I2tF increase guard regen of other abilities, or does it regen it in and of itself?
Comments
Also, any word on 5/5 Armor of Bahamut vs. 5/5 Shield Defense? What have you guys taken?
Thanks
The first threatening rush gets me to the mobs before anybody else. Things are harder to manage if you don't get there first. While you can block mid animation on Enforced Threat, I find that I sometimes take one or two shots when it doesn't work correctly / I lag / I goof up - which drops the marks on those mobs, and I've gotten in the habit of doing Threatening Rush again just to keep it clean. You can block during the Threatening Rush animation, and it will end right into guard.
And yes, it does. Not in one big chunk, which is probably what you are looking for, but a steady increase in guard meter. If you are still taking shots, it can be hard to see the increases. But with Into the Fray - > Enforced Threat, I can go from broken to full in a matter of a couple seconds.
There was a Perfect World person saying that shield defense was working as intended in one of the other threads here, that immediately got a bunch of screenshots showing otherwise. As of yesterday at 3pm they had this to say:
"Hey guys, quick update. We have identified what was broken with this particular feat and we are currently working on a fix!"
Source: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?182182-Broken-Feat-Shield-Defense-%28Protection%29-Guardian-Fighter/page3
With it fixed, I would go with that. Armor of Bahamut is okay, but not great. Extra AC/defense is nice. Since I doubt they are giving anybody free respecs and I've already blown one putting this guide together, I have Shield Defense currently.
Edit: And ya, Threatening Rush makes this build. Once you get that, your level of control over encounters jumps exponentially. Glad it's working for you!
guardianfighter.com
But i still have one question about the feats.
Im currently lvl 36 with the same feats i still have 3 heroic points left. Its a shame not to distribute them, but i have no clue where i should put them.
I thought about the Strengt focus (wich is in your build 2/3)
Did you forgot to add an feat to this list or was this on purpose?
Could you tell me what your final values are at level 60?
Thanks muchly.
Also I've considered doing 3/3 Trample the Fallen and going with my last 10 Points into Tactician and grab Trample the Fallen with Battle Trample. Basically any time the mob is CC'd and you attack it you would gain 15% more damage as well as deal 25% of your weapon damage and gain 25% of weapon damage in threat. For trash packs (which are really the only thing that gets CC'd) you could give up Shield Talent (since you really aren't guarding on most trash packs as is) and instead go for this to keep aggro on you in between CC's.
Not sure yet though. The Wrathful Warrior also seems interesting because there's many ways to get temporary HP (I always seem to have them) so 15% additional damage/threat wouldn't be bad at all considering how tanky everything else is and it'd work on all encounters not just temporary ones.
You're human, so you have three extra points.
guardianfighter.com
Precisely.
guardianfighter.com
22 Str
27 Con
16 Dex
13 Int
11 Wis
13 Cha
guardianfighter.com
http://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/1dv5op/anyone_got_a_link_to_a_good_level_60_gf_tanking/
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?176972-Rokuthy-s-Hybrid-Tanking-Build-%28GF%29-for-End-Game-PvE-%28and-PvP%29-content/page7
Rothusky also made an update on his build stating that endgame all a GF currently is doing is keeping aggro and dpsing the boss. The dmg boost from the conqueror tree and threatening rush is enough to keep aggro.
Would you like to give a third opinion on the tanking meta for endgame?
Wow, there's a loaded question if I ever saw one.
I guess I have a couple of thoughts, in no particular order.
1. Rokuthy is a couple dungeons ahead of me. He said that he has one epic dungeon and Castle Never left. I haven't seen any confirmation of Epic's progress, only that as he understands it - full protection is lacking at the tip top of dungeon clears. So, to be very frank, if you want your advice from the most progressed of the three of us, I would go with Rokuthy. That said...
2. I was exceedingly clear about what this guide was, what it wasn't, and who it was intended for. I have a guild that I haven't run a dungeon with yet because I sometimes can play at 3am, and sometimes can play at 11am - I have precisely zero play time during peak hours (as stated at the very beginning of the guide). Every dungeon that I have cleared has been a pug. Bad luck with drops (I've gotten 1 'drop' - everything else has been purchased with marks and snagged out of the chest at the end of delve events) and limited game time (if I'm lucky I get 1 dungeon run a day) have kept me from progressing further. That said...
3. I have had zero problems whatsoever with any group. Even add heavy fights have been perfectly fine.
4. We're talking about the meta of a game in "open beta" (soft release, release, whatever you want to call it), that has been up and running officially for 13 days. Granted, the time to level cap in this game is exceedingly low, but there are members of my guild and friends list that haven't hit cap yet. Additionally, there really hasn't been time for them to assess and adjust the end game based on actual people actually playing it. Every MMO I've ever played has been continuously balanced - if they see that protection needs love, it will happen. In fact, I've been pleasantly surprised at just how responsive Cryptic has been so far.
5. I'm not big on flavor of the month, especially not in MMO's. If I could tear down my build and recreate it through easier means, sure maybe. But I don't have much free time to do dailies to earn AD - I'm lucky if my schedule allows me to complete more than foundry dailies. And I don't have $6 to burn frequently, trying to follow the latest nerfs, buffs, adjustments, and tweaks. I made a build that seemed reasonable for the long term, and I still believe this is that. If I'm wrong, I think there's bigger issues at play here (skill trees that aren't viable, poor dungeon design, etc.).
6. I'm under no delusions about the limitations of this build / playstyle, as evidenced by my quotes below:
Right off the bat, let's get this established: their builds are going to be significantly better for PvP.
Also, I do foundry and solo content with this build, but it is a little slow.
This build is (in many ways) overkill
It is made for those who queue up for dungeons and skirmishes by themselves, and cannot be sure of the quality of their future group mates. (Translation - you are not going to be in the top X% of content clearing)
There are other options out there, two very good ones listed at the top of my post. This is not in any way, shape or form the definitive guide. But if you find yourself in a similar position as me, my sincere hope is that this build will serve you reliably. (I had a target audience, and folks getting ready to clear Castle Never with a pre-made guild group are not part of that target audience)
I hope that answers your question.
guardianfighter.com
I personally haven't hit a point yet where I'm deadweight, and I have T1's on farm (even still missing gear). In fact, as of a couple days ago, both Envy and Rokuthy thought this would be the best build for T2 and Castle Never - it looks like the last couple of dungeons up the adds on bosses to an obnoxious level, which caused both to swing back to full DPS / hybrid DPS builds.
If you go over to Rokuthy's guide, you can see that he calls for adjustments that would make this build more viable and stable. Right now, tanks aren't "needed" in groups - you have to figure that's going to be changed and modified.
Unless you are at the very end of T2's, this build works - as little as three days ago, Rokuthy himself was using this build and reviewed it as such: "I'm actually specced differently at the moment specifically for T2 dungeon tanking. Tanked a few today, the spec felt good." And I know for most solo tanks that PuG their groups (again the intended audience as stated up front), this is a very serviceable build that will get you through T1's with less than zero issues.
I go back to 13 days, not being nearly enough time to properly judge the endgame that Neverwinter is going to implement long term.
guardianfighter.com
In most games, thoughness is better than hitpoints because it is MUCH easier for the healer.
If you have (say) 10,000 hitpoins and get hit for 500 every second, you need 30,000 heals.
If you have 8,000 hitpoints and only get hit 400 every second, you only need 24,000 heals.
In some games, you can get away with the first option, because the healers have HUGE heals, fully restoring your health and such. In this game not, here most heals are small heals, there are few 'flash heals.
There are more elements to the discussion, but in most games, thougness >>> hitpoints.
My group was having a few issues as we transitioned into T2's - we weren't playing Neverwinter the way the current state of the game calls for it to be played. I'm trying not to spoil anything specifically, so I'm staying vague on that point because I know a lot of people don't look at content that's coming up before they get there. So in those first few T2 runs, I had specced into more of a full tank role because that's what I thought was needed. I thought our issue was an issue that had to do with a lack of control. I specced into the variation that I posted about 3 days before Venore posted his guide. It just happened to be so close to my spec that I posted the variation of it that I was using, mainly to point out that I still value HP.
However, after those T2 runs, we came to the conclusion that control wasn't the issue with our group. It was pure, unbridled DPS. Outside of a few gimmicky situations, most of the T2 content after Epic Pirates simply requires pure DPS. A couple of the checks are incredibly tight - there aren't hard enrages like other games - but there are definitely soft enrages in terms of just not being able to handle adds anymore. As I said before, there are some gimmicks in a couple of fights that you can pull off to alleviate that, but for the most part, you just want raw DPS in your group.
The full protection spec doesn't bring the DPS required to be successful on some of these boss fights, and that's just the way it is. Now I'm sure there are exceptions out there - there are probably (and eventually no matter what, there will be) groups out there that can easily carry a cleric and a full protection tank to victory because they're just that good. For most groups, today, that just isn't the case. I mean, I did 25.2 million damage in a Spellplague instance today - I'm able to put out those numbers with nearly 48% damage reduction from AC/Defense, I have 20% deflect, 34k HP. I mean, I don't know how else to say it. I tank as well as a full protection tank, I probably control situations BETTER due to the amount of DPS I put out - I have no aggro issues, AND I bring the DPS of another CW/Rogue to the group. It's just a no brainer as to what is best in the CURRENT (<--- current) state of the game.
I've said this somewhere else, in a reply somewhere - what they need to do to make full protection tanking viable in this game is this:
Lower the amount of adds that spawn in boss fights, make the adds dangerous enough that they need to be killed, but not so bad that you need a tank on them fulltime (perfect job for a GWF). Increase the amount of damage that the actual bosses themselves do by a substantial amount. Honestly the bosses would need to be buffed to the point that if the tank lost aggro on that boss, someone was going to die. That would give the GF a clear cut job in groups. However, ask yourselves if that's really the game you want to play. Do you want to be forced to have a GF at all times in order to clear content? As it stands right now, group make ups are flexible. No GF? No problem - just bring another DPS to cover it. But on the other side of that coin is this: oh, you're a GF? Well then you better be putting out some numbers otherwise there's no point in bringing you along.
Just food for thought.
Just to make it clear one more time, this guide is wonderful. It's well written and the information is accurate. If the overall paradigm of PvE content shifts into more of a holy trinity type setup, then this will be one of the go to builds for GF's out there interested in PvE. If it doesn't change, then I'm sorry but this build just isn't viable at the highest end of T2's at the moment until DPS becomes so geared that they can carry a tank specced GF through the content. And that makes me sad, because I do enjoy tanking - at the same time though, I'm loving my GF right now as I've been purely DPS in most games.
The tanking meta so to speak is for complete endgame T2 dungeons.
With that being said, I am going to stick with the turtle tanking build since I am only level 41 and I have miles to go before facing endgame dungeons. Not to mention the fact that the build indeed works for any dungeon for trash and boss+ads control. If I am forced to switch at the end then I have better ways of making AD than trying it now. Being level 41, I have no way to put out sheer amounts of dps in hopes to keep threat control.
Also, this lets me actually play and enjoy the role of a tank if my group is indeed able to carry it.
One minor modification to the build I have decided to try is the following:
Trash mobs (Not during a boss)
Passives: Switching out Shield talent for 1pt in Combat Superiority
At-Will: Switching out Tides of iron for Cleave
Boss
Back to default setup
Thanks
I am fairly newb so bear with me please - the tanks tab move mark
I have a question about how that works when you want to just hold tons of mobs
threatening rush marks all targets in a aoe - so when you are pulling a ton of adds
do you want to be spamming threatening rush with your aoe spells since I assume that it gets
the threat bonus from your passive in the power tree just like how pressing tab also grants marks that passive
and for single target you just want to be marking and hitting the shield slam move a lot?
...I understand what you're saying, and hadn't thought about it that way at all. My tendency to want to grab hp where and whenever I can is an instinct from tanking in other games. I haven't made it past the L30-ish point in this game yet so I don't have a clear idea of how late game content works. I can see why a flat chunk of HP would become less and less significant as the tank leveled higher as well.
I've figured out what the 'counter-intuitive' part is for me as well - the bonus/ability under scrutiny isn't actually a 'flat' amount. It looks like it would scale. The statement I had quoted originally was in reference to Toughness which is a percentage (3% per point up to 9%) based feat but I don't know if the hp gained are calculated before things such as CON come into the picture. Either way its just a semantics issue hehe.
To tell the truth I am still learning 4th edition and am pretty lost mechanics-wise, even with simple things like stat bonuses. I will assume that things like HP gear does not factor into the calculation.
Still, the idea that 'HP are god' is a hard mentality to break, and since we are talking 3 points and whether or not Toughness is worth it, I guess then the question would be where those points would be better spent. I guess I don't really understand what would contribute to survivability the most: Hit Points vs. Defense score (mitigation of damage instead of soaking it) -or- Hit Points vs. Damage output (the ability to end the battle faster).
Either way, the guide and this whole thread has been really helpful for me as a newb, and I hope that my earlier post wasn't misinterpreted as an attack or anything since I really just wanted to spark discussion and hopefully learn more while I am at it.
Amillion Dollars L60 'easy mode' GWF
I agree, in almost all cases this is true. I can only think of a few circumstances in which having an extremely high HP total might be as much or more benefit than mitigation (across games as well...in a general way at least).
Fighting spell-casters or boss mobs that have spells or spell effects that do a huge amount of burst damage (breath weapons might fit in here as well). Again I am generalizing a lot, especially because I really don't know if there are a lot of these type of attacks in this game (late or endgame).
Typically mitigating damage from huge explody-type spells/attacks would rest on saving throws or magic resistance, but I don't know if either of these are mechanics in Neverwinter (or 4th ed. D&D?). If a 'typical' tank build doesn't have the means to dodge or resist a gigantic cloud of poison or a lightning bolt to the nose then said tank may well have to fall back on raw HP (a lot of them) to see them through.
Does that make sense?
It remains to be seen (at least by me) what forms high non-melee burst damage will occur. Looking forward to finding out, but not knowing I still feel like stockpiling HP and HP gear can probably save me a few deaths.
Obviously though your take on mitigation being > than raw hp is pretty universal - and a dedicated healing cleric would probably thank you for armoring up and saving them spell-juice, not to mention healing a HUGE hp pool that drains fast (due to lack of mitigation skill or gear) is the most annoying healing experience there is. I would use DDO barbarians as an example of a heal sink but I don't know if I should admit to playing that game here
Amillion Dollars L60 'easy mode' GWF
What's the best build to have maximum threat ? this Venore's guide ?
The choice between strength, armor, and toughness only comes up if you are doing the turtle build. If you are doing a DPS build, you'll be skipping the tier 1 blocking talent, which will have you spend points in both strength and toughness. In the turtle build, HP is significantly less necessary because your shield is taking so much incoming damage. In a DPS build, you're face tanking more damage, which would increase the need for HP. The builds and their purpose match up well when it comes to this choice.
Furthermore, I hit the point where turtle build is a liability, and have swapped to something closer to the Hybrid build. I don't have the three extra points that Rokuthy has so it doesn't match up completely - amongst other minor differences.
With a DPS build, your damage goes up (duh). I am working on my playstyle right now and swapping out some gear, so I'm a little behind the 8 ball in two ways. 1 - my non core armor pieces are overtuned for mitigation and lacking in damage; 2 - I am having to rehaul my playstyle, and habit changes are always fun! But back to the damage. More specifically, what the damage means:
Turtle Build, trash: all mobs on you, controlled, debuffed, standing in one spot while your DPS brings them down.
Turtle Build, boss: full mob control and boss control, everything debuffed, mostly standing in one spot while your DPS kills adds and then whittles boss.
This will be a strong build for leveling, and a strong build for T1 and early T2 content. It does reach a point, where the adds that come with the boss are too much for your mitigation or too much for your control. Then you wipe. That's the point Rokuthy reached about 5/6 days before I did.
DPS Build, trash: trash explodes, nothing had a chance to threaten anybody in the group
DPS Build, boss: depending on the specific boss, you either burn the boss quicker or you burn the adds quicker, making it an overall safer fight
Every once in awhile, on a one big threatening mob / many trash mobs encounter (read: every boss), I need to bring shield up and stab over it for some quick "snap" like threat. By and large, I've been gathering everything up with Enforced Threat and cleaving my heart out. Updating guide to reflect this.
guardianfighter.com
That largely depends on the skill of the group, namely their ability to position themselves correctly.
A group's ability to dish out DPS with the best of them is only as good as their ability to stay alive long enough to do so. This can be difficult if the boss is all over the place instead of centered on one target: your tank.
Tanking is perfectly viable in this game and the types of groups that take one either aren't concerned with how long it takes them to clear the content in question as long as its done efficienty or prefer to maintain an element of control during boss encounters. It's usually a combo of the two.
For all the CC a CW has, it means nothing to a boss. Better to use it on adds and let the tank handle the beasty. It's just better.
Now I won't deny that content can be roflstopped without a tank and if more and more groups are able to do it this way (at epics, mind you) then I fully support a fix of some type to make tanks a quality asset.
As it stands tanking is just fine. The mindset of the players is what needs adjusting.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Could you please take a picture of your feats, like Rokuthy did ?
It would be easier for me, since my game client is not in english, that'd be great !
You ention that after Into the Fray and ET that you guard is almost full again... Really? I've never noticed that big an impact on my guard regen from ET or I2tF. Maybe someone could explain how they influence guard regen? Does I2tF increase guard regen of other abilities, or does it regen it in and of itself?