ladydwarfMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Every thread where the sexism and equality issue pops up has gone exactly the same way since time immemorial. Keep on obliterating that strawman, keep shouting about prudishness, keep pretending players who talk about these issues are championing some harebrained cause to limit your options and BAH GAWD take away your freedom to see some pixel skin.
After all, it's not as if we make it crystal clear in our posts that we'd love more options, we just want things to be equal -- and they could so easily be equal, but there are reasons why this HAMSTER hasn't changed in a decade.
MMOs are a hugely popular form of entertainment media. They're a really big deal for millions of people. Sexism is a thing. Objectification of women is a thing. No matter how much you try to spin the argument around and make it look like you're somehow the ones having stuff forced on you, when nearly all of the female armor has revealing holes in it while the male armor doesn't, that bloody **** well qualifies as sexism.
But it's always the same. Some people don't want to hear it and the "frat boy" reputation of MMO communities (especially the forums) certainly isn't about to change overnight, so go on with your mockery and do your darndest to run off that nonexistent granny panty brigade. That'll learn 'em. :rolleyes:
Every thread where the sexism and equality issue pops up has gone exactly the same way since time immemorial. Keep on obliterating that strawman, keep shouting about prudishness, keep pretending players who talk about these issues are championing some harebrained cause to limit your options and BAH GAWD take away your freedom to see some pixel skin.
After all, it's not as if we make it crystal clear in our posts that we'd love more options, we just want things to be equal -- and they could so easily be equal, but there are reasons why this HAMSTER hasn't changed in a decade.
MMOs are a hugely popular form of entertainment media. They're a really big deal for millions of people. Sexism is a thing. Objectification of women is a thing. No matter how much you try to spin the argument around and make it look like you're somehow the ones having stuff forced on you, when nearly all of the female armor has revealing holes in it while the male armor doesn't, that bloody **** well qualifies as sexism.
But it's always the same. Some people don't want to hear it and the "frat boy" reputation of MMO communities (especially the forums) certainly isn't about to change overnight, so go on with your mockery and do your darndest to run off that nonexistent granny panty brigade. That'll learn 'em. :rolleyes:
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
Not like I've found any other shirt or pants drop thus far, and I'm level 60. For the two defense they give you, it's worth just throwing em away, on a female anyways. It'd be odd to see male chars running around in tighy-wighties... Little entertaining... But I'm sure you'd want your clothes back in due time.
On the flip side, if you want some erotic gaming experience, I suggest checking out Scarlet Blade, if only the combat system in Scarlet Blade wasn't point/click, it'd make for a great title.
Not like I've found any other shirt or pants drop thus far, and I'm level 60. For the two defense they give you, it's worth just throwing em away, on a female anyways. It'd be odd to see male chars running around in tighy-wighties... Little entertaining... But I'm sure you'd want your clothes back in due time.
On the flip side, if you want some erotic gaming experience, I suggest checking out Scarlet Blade, if only the combat system in Scarlet Blade wasn't point/click, it'd make for a great title.
There's actually a decent statistical loss if you do this vs wearing your level equivalent in shirt/pants - they're crafted.
Just throwing my vote in to hide the shirt/pants. I like going for the sleeveless barbarian look on some of my characters so I would love to be able to hide my undershirt. I could care less if the pants are hideable but if someone else wants to, I fail to see how it would affect me so I vote to make em both hideable.
"I start fightin' a war, I guarantee, you'll see somethin' new."
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avarigirlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 10Arc User
Oh look! Someone who doesn't understand how armor works!
-Rachel-
No fair bringing 'realism' in here!
If we're going to do that, folks in chain armor should take crits from projectile or 'stabby' weapons all the time. Folks in full plate should struggle to get to their feet and take crippling injuries from maces, halberds and war hammers!
Oh look! Someone who doesn't understand how armor works!
-Rachel-
How do lightning bolts being thrown from my hand work? Logic states that my hands would be burnt to a crisp (among other things), yet that doesn't happen.
I don't want to see girls running around with holes in their armor. I think it's creepy. I know it's sexist.
But you're okay with that so everyone has to be okay with it?
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
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ladydwarfMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
We've reached the "logic versus magic to justify stripperplate" stage of the conversation, I see.
Have we missed anything? Did we have the requisite "female poster isn't bothered, so let's point to her as a real woman representing the hive mind collective" reply yet?
I should start keeping a checklist for these things.
You're not going to like hearing this but it has to be said: you're the one that's acting sexist, and by projecting your inherent sexism onto other people, you've exposed yourself as the very thing you purport to be fighting against.
You are--foolishly--assuming that all the persons in this thread are male, and are also playing female characters so they can strip them down and get their rocks off by looking at some polygonal T&A, which I find laughable. See I don't play a female character, not because I'm sexist towards females, but because I feel a greater connection to a male character being male myself. I personally would like the option to hide my chest armour, and possibly my gloves.
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mihoshiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 3Arc User
You're not going to like hearing this but it has to be said: you're the one that's acting sexist, and by projecting your inherent sexism onto other people, you've exposed yourself as the very thing you purport to be fighting against.
You are--foolishly--assuming that all the persons in this thread are male, and are also playing female characters so they can strip them down and get their rocks off by looking at some polygonal T&A, which I find laughable. See I don't play a female character, not because I'm sexist towards females, but because I feel a greater connection to a male character being male myself. I personally would like the option to hide my chest armour, and possibly my gloves.
Right, the "SWERVE! Poster irked by sexism is actually horribly sexist" reply. Thanks.
Right, the "SWERVE! Poster irked by sexism is actually horribly sexist" reply. Thanks.
I knew I was forgetting one.
My pleasure.
I'm glad I was able to show you that there's more than two sides to a conversation, and not everything is black and white
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alopexiaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 16
edited May 2013
I like how you think you are so righteous and everyone else has "predictable" answers. Same can be said about you two - stereotypical arguments and very limited views on feminism and sexism. Nothing new I heard from either of you.
And I assume you both dress like men in real life? Because wouldn't wearing a dress in your world be sexist?
I'm glad I was able to show you that there's more than two sides to a conversation, and not everything is black and white
Actually she was pointing out that your argument was one of many constantly trotted out. It's called "Ad Hominem". Rather than discuss the merits of the argument I put forth you attack me with something kind of ridiculous.
I like how you think you are so righteous and everyone else has "predictable" answers. Same can be said about you two - stereotypical arguments and very limited views on feminism and sexism. Nothing new I heard from either of you.
And I assume you both dress like men in real life? Because wouldn't wearing a dress in your world be sexist?
Trust me, you're very limited in what your view of sexism is if you don't recognize the inherent sexism in having two different armor sets to make women show more skin. Of course you also think that's "Natural" so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
And then another ad hominem attack combined with a strawman, well done!
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
Oh look! Someone who doesn't understand how armor works!
-Rachel-
I see your example of ridiculous armour, and raise you this:
Yes, the example you showed would be utterly stupid to wear in any kind of realistic battle situation. Now, could you tell me how the example I just gave is any less stupid, considering that there is literally no way the fighter above would be able to life his arm above his chest?
The problem is your arguments have no merit, and seeing sexism in anything remotely sexual is the flaw in your supposed logic. By calling everything you see sexist, you're devaluing actual sexism. Speaking of ad hominem attacks, you should re-read some of your posts before using that label on other people. Again, you're projecting yourself and your own internal thought process onto other people.
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alopexiaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 16
edited May 2013
You use the exact same tactics and your arguments are not new and refreshing in any way. You also don't actually try to have a discussion, and ignore anything that would poke holes in your "logic", but given the type of narrow mindedness you represent I really shouldn't be surprised.
We've reached the "logic versus magic to justify stripperplate" stage of the conversation, I see.
Have we missed anything? Did we have the requisite "female poster isn't bothered, so let's point to her as a real woman representing the hive mind collective" reply yet?
I should start keeping a checklist for these things.
Funny how people who agree with you are 'right', and people who disagree with you are 'not'. Men who disagree are sexist, hormonal pigs, women who disagree are deluded and propping up the system that's oppressing them, "OPEN YOUR EYES SISTER!"
Calling an argument you disagree with a strawman does not make it one. Asking for realism in an environment clearly not worried about it on one thing but ignoring it on others is a valid point. Just because it complicates your argument doesn't make it any less valid. Nothing about this game is real. From the way armor looks (on men OR women), to the way combat animations work (tell me again how swinging a long sword hits everything in front of me equally, or how I can throw 12 knives that magically curve to hit a target that moves after I've released the blade), to the existence and behavior of magic.
Demanding that armor Look realistic, but not Behave realistically is insisting that the thing You care about is more important than the thing I care about. Personally, as a person who has studied swordplay, the combat animations for the fighter class bug the HAMSTER out of me. But I'll admit -- they certainly look cool.
And that's what this fantasy game stuff is REALLY about. Looking cool. Whatever your definition of cool is.
How would you feel about the option being visible only to the wearer? If I turn the shirt display off for my avatar, only I see it. Would it be okay then? Or would it still bother you knowing that -- maybe -- some guy in the game was getting his kicks looking at his half naked toon?
I don't oppose your desire to have the things you want because I think you are prudish, or fighting a pointless fight. I'm a huge advocate for equal rights for all people (homosexuals, minorities, and genders) in real life.
This is not real life however. This is a product. You aren't being forced to play. If it offends your sense of social justice then celebrate capitalism by voting with your dollars and take your business to a product that closer matches your ideals. Better yet, design your own (or if you lack skills to do so, invest in one. Put a team together and kickstarter it. I'm sure it would do fantastic.)
For now, this game, this fantasy world, has a certain look and feel to it. It has the same look and feel that DnD products have had for several decades now. Which is appropriate, because it's marketed for DnD fans. It doesn't make economic sense for them to make a product designed for an audience, and then ignore the expectations of said audience.
And yes, Kharnis. He wouldn't be able to lift his arm up to chest level. Of course that's conflating a POWER Fantasy with a SEXUAL Fantasy.
Alopexia: Show me an argument that "Pokes a Whole" in my argument and I'll give it a rebuttal. There haven't been any, thus far, that can't be refuted by pointing out that they lean on sexism. The whole "It's Fantasy!" argument leans on sexism because if "It's Fantasy" then why aren't the male characters subjected to the same Fantasy? If it's Fantasy why is it applied exclusively to female characters? The answer is, of course, based in sexism.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
The problem is your arguments have no merit, and seeing sexism in anything remotely sexual is the flaw in your supposed logic. By calling everything you see sexist, you're devaluing actual sexism. Speaking of ad hominem attacks, you should re-read some of your posts before using that label on other people. Again, you're projecting yourself and your own internal thought process onto other people.
Exactly. I'm surprised this thread has continued this argument for over a day now. This is a video game. Apparently, everything is sexual here, though. Rachel, you've spent a ton of your time fighting over some pixelated midriff. It's a fantasy video game. Let me repeat, a fantasy video game. You're acting like this is some sort of life or death of the female gender. You argue that a few pixels of skin showing in a video game character is a hugely sexist offense. how is this even an argument?
Exactly. I'm surprised this thread has continued this argument for over a day now. This is a video game. Apparently, everything is sexual here, though. Rachel, you've spent a ton of your time fighting over some pixelated midriff. It's a fantasy video game. Let me repeat, a fantasy video game. You're acting like this is some sort of life or death of the female gender. You argue that a few pixels of skin showing in a video game character is a hugely sexist offense. how is this even an argument?
It's a symptom of society in general. They're not wrong in making this point, but I'm not sure this is the right thread for it. This already exists in game, removing shirt/pants isn't going to really show more skin than you can already show by using the cosmetic outfit option.
Comments
After all, it's not as if we make it crystal clear in our posts that we'd love more options, we just want things to be equal -- and they could so easily be equal, but there are reasons why this HAMSTER hasn't changed in a decade.
MMOs are a hugely popular form of entertainment media. They're a really big deal for millions of people. Sexism is a thing. Objectification of women is a thing. No matter how much you try to spin the argument around and make it look like you're somehow the ones having stuff forced on you, when nearly all of the female armor has revealing holes in it while the male armor doesn't, that bloody **** well qualifies as sexism.
But it's always the same. Some people don't want to hear it and the "frat boy" reputation of MMO communities (especially the forums) certainly isn't about to change overnight, so go on with your mockery and do your darndest to run off that nonexistent granny panty brigade. That'll learn 'em. :rolleyes:
There seems to the option to do so in the slot menus for each piece, but most of them are greyed out except for the helmet and cape/neck slot.
Not like I've found any other shirt or pants drop thus far, and I'm level 60. For the two defense they give you, it's worth just throwing em away, on a female anyways. It'd be odd to see male chars running around in tighy-wighties... Little entertaining... But I'm sure you'd want your clothes back in due time.
On the flip side, if you want some erotic gaming experience, I suggest checking out Scarlet Blade, if only the combat system in Scarlet Blade wasn't point/click, it'd make for a great title.
There's actually a decent statistical loss if you do this vs wearing your level equivalent in shirt/pants - they're crafted.
I'm a woman and I think its perfectly fine when the women's armour is revealing and the man's isn't. Seems like the natural thing.
level 40 crafted rogue pants are like +44 power, AP, +22 crit and +12 defense. The next tier of those are higher AND have a slot for enchantments.
Oh look! Someone who doesn't understand how armor works!
-Rachel-
No fair bringing 'realism' in here!
If we're going to do that, folks in chain armor should take crits from projectile or 'stabby' weapons all the time. Folks in full plate should struggle to get to their feet and take crippling injuries from maces, halberds and war hammers!
How do lightning bolts being thrown from my hand work? Logic states that my hands would be burnt to a crisp (among other things), yet that doesn't happen.
So why aren't the men dancing around the street in bulging codpieces, again?
Ohhhh, right. Sexism! Women in less armor is okay. Guys with holes in their armor is a no-no because they'd wear "Real" armor.
I used neither the word "Realistic" or the word "Natural". You guys did that.
-Rachel-
But you're okay with that so everyone has to be okay with it?
-Rachel-
Have we missed anything? Did we have the requisite "female poster isn't bothered, so let's point to her as a real woman representing the hive mind collective" reply yet?
I should start keeping a checklist for these things.
You are--foolishly--assuming that all the persons in this thread are male, and are also playing female characters so they can strip them down and get their rocks off by looking at some polygonal T&A, which I find laughable. See I don't play a female character, not because I'm sexist towards females, but because I feel a greater connection to a male character being male myself. I personally would like the option to hide my chest armour, and possibly my gloves.
Perhaps if you ask kindly enough the devs will put all female characters in Burkas.
Right, the "SWERVE! Poster irked by sexism is actually horribly sexist" reply. Thanks.
I knew I was forgetting one.
And the hyperbolic strawman strikes again!
We should write up Bingo cards for these things, Ladydwarf!
-Rachel-
My pleasure.
I'm glad I was able to show you that there's more than two sides to a conversation, and not everything is black and white
And I assume you both dress like men in real life? Because wouldn't wearing a dress in your world be sexist?
Actually she was pointing out that your argument was one of many constantly trotted out. It's called "Ad Hominem". Rather than discuss the merits of the argument I put forth you attack me with something kind of ridiculous.
Trust me, you're very limited in what your view of sexism is if you don't recognize the inherent sexism in having two different armor sets to make women show more skin. Of course you also think that's "Natural" so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
And then another ad hominem attack combined with a strawman, well done!
-Rachel-
Yes, the example you showed would be utterly stupid to wear in any kind of realistic battle situation. Now, could you tell me how the example I just gave is any less stupid, considering that there is literally no way the fighter above would be able to life his arm above his chest?
Funny how people who agree with you are 'right', and people who disagree with you are 'not'. Men who disagree are sexist, hormonal pigs, women who disagree are deluded and propping up the system that's oppressing them, "OPEN YOUR EYES SISTER!"
Calling an argument you disagree with a strawman does not make it one. Asking for realism in an environment clearly not worried about it on one thing but ignoring it on others is a valid point. Just because it complicates your argument doesn't make it any less valid. Nothing about this game is real. From the way armor looks (on men OR women), to the way combat animations work (tell me again how swinging a long sword hits everything in front of me equally, or how I can throw 12 knives that magically curve to hit a target that moves after I've released the blade), to the existence and behavior of magic.
Demanding that armor Look realistic, but not Behave realistically is insisting that the thing You care about is more important than the thing I care about. Personally, as a person who has studied swordplay, the combat animations for the fighter class bug the HAMSTER out of me. But I'll admit -- they certainly look cool.
And that's what this fantasy game stuff is REALLY about. Looking cool. Whatever your definition of cool is.
How would you feel about the option being visible only to the wearer? If I turn the shirt display off for my avatar, only I see it. Would it be okay then? Or would it still bother you knowing that -- maybe -- some guy in the game was getting his kicks looking at his half naked toon?
I don't oppose your desire to have the things you want because I think you are prudish, or fighting a pointless fight. I'm a huge advocate for equal rights for all people (homosexuals, minorities, and genders) in real life.
This is not real life however. This is a product. You aren't being forced to play. If it offends your sense of social justice then celebrate capitalism by voting with your dollars and take your business to a product that closer matches your ideals. Better yet, design your own (or if you lack skills to do so, invest in one. Put a team together and kickstarter it. I'm sure it would do fantastic.)
For now, this game, this fantasy world, has a certain look and feel to it. It has the same look and feel that DnD products have had for several decades now. Which is appropriate, because it's marketed for DnD fans. It doesn't make economic sense for them to make a product designed for an audience, and then ignore the expectations of said audience.
And yes, Kharnis. He wouldn't be able to lift his arm up to chest level. Of course that's conflating a POWER Fantasy with a SEXUAL Fantasy.
Alopexia: Show me an argument that "Pokes a Whole" in my argument and I'll give it a rebuttal. There haven't been any, thus far, that can't be refuted by pointing out that they lean on sexism. The whole "It's Fantasy!" argument leans on sexism because if "It's Fantasy" then why aren't the male characters subjected to the same Fantasy? If it's Fantasy why is it applied exclusively to female characters? The answer is, of course, based in sexism.
-Rachel-
Exactly. I'm surprised this thread has continued this argument for over a day now. This is a video game. Apparently, everything is sexual here, though. Rachel, you've spent a ton of your time fighting over some pixelated midriff. It's a fantasy video game. Let me repeat, a fantasy video game. You're acting like this is some sort of life or death of the female gender. You argue that a few pixels of skin showing in a video game character is a hugely sexist offense. how is this even an argument?
It's a symptom of society in general. They're not wrong in making this point, but I'm not sure this is the right thread for it. This already exists in game, removing shirt/pants isn't going to really show more skin than you can already show by using the cosmetic outfit option.