Sexual fantasies, for a game character....what?
I certainly don't think of my female character as a sexual fantasy...
that would be weird, very weird
I think of her as an extended version of me,
and since I'm female irl, I usually make female characters, because I think of them as a version of me...
not some weird sexual fantasy.
Yes. And that's fine. You're a woman making a female character as an extension of yourself. Good on you for doing it.
That doesn't change the fact that the character model and character dimorphism caters to male power and sexual fantasies.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
Hrm. That picture. Honestly, I don't see that male figure as a "power fantasy" for me (yes, I'm male). It looks freakish and mis-proportioned. Especially the limbs - the forearms & bizarre wrist/hand connection are terrible. The upper legs aren't much better - the connection to the hips seems odd, and the thighs seem a bit too long. So, yeah. Even if I didn't tend to make female characters in games because I appreciate female beauty & like kick-butt Action Girl heroines, I'd likely do it to avoid the mutant ape-men that the males tend to be.
(And it probably doesn't matter that I think the female one looks strong. Sturdy body & limbs, not the tall/willowy/thin "model" look that you see in some games. Which also reminds me that I noticed - when making my first female character - that Cryptic had toned down the body proportions since Star Trek - the bust/waist/hips aren't as exaggerated as in the previous game. All in all, it seemed like they moved more towards a more toned-down look than their last game.)
I agree that the female model looks stronger than most female models in other games. I'm just saying she's being presented as more of a sexualized character than the male model. The male model is not designed to look sexy he's meant to look powerful or strong. And even if the artist's idea of powerful or strong is a weird mutant shape that doesn't work for you or me on a personal scale: The intent remains the same.
Liefeld, for example draws Cable as this big muscular mosntrosity:
And here's his rendition of Enchantress:
Both are horrific monstrosities of human anatomy, but Cable is designed for male power fantasy and Enchantress for male sexual fantasy... Even if you'd need to be incredibly twisted to see her as sexy. The longer you look at either image the more horrific it gets... but they remain power and sex.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
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drowessMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited May 2013
While yes in general it is catered to males, it doesn't mean all of us females hate the sexy armor designs. I honestly don't think I could play a game if I only had a choice of a parka... In D&D I play a drow alu-fiend, so it is my characters nature to want to be sexy. In AoC I ran around in just a loincloth with nothing on the top. I don't expect this game to be anything like that or like tera. But we need more choices in the game. We need both covering and revealing for all types of people. I have seen this type of argument in other game forums. The best solution is diversity, cause you cannot force someone else to like your style.
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losse1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Armors are fairly boring and need work early on, dyes do NOT cut it. Need more options regardless of the sexist arguments.
"The sum of the whole is this: walk and be happy; walk and be healthy. The best way to lengthen out our days is to walk steadily and with a purpose." -Charles Dickens
And I would be fine with that, Drowess. I just request that both sides are treated equally. If women get revealing clothes so should men. If men get covering armor so should women. The ship has long since sailed on the models being changed to avoid sexism. I get that (Better than most, probably). I just hate the tacit support of sexism that I see on basically -every- MMO forum.
Make it as fair as we can and I'll be pleased as punch. If you want the ability to show off more skin and I want the ability to show off less then that's fine. I just hope any such decisions are also applied to male models to try and make things as fair as possible.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Hrm. That picture. Honestly, I don't see that male figure as a "power fantasy" for me (yes, I'm male). It looks freakish and mis-proportioned. Especially the limbs - the forearms & bizarre wrist/hand connection are terrible. The upper legs aren't much better - the connection to the hips seems odd, and the thighs seem a bit too long. So, yeah. Even if I didn't tend to make female characters in games because I appreciate female beauty & like kick-butt Action Girl heroines, I'd likely do it to avoid the mutant ape-men that the males tend to be.
(And it probably doesn't matter that I think the female one looks strong. Sturdy body & limbs, not the tall/willowy/thin "model" look that you see in some games. Which also reminds me that I noticed - when making my first female character - that Cryptic had toned down the body proportions since Star Trek - the bust/waist/hips aren't as exaggerated as in the previous game. All in all, it seemed like they moved more towards a more toned-down look than their last game.)
Clearly you're wrong if you don't see the woman as nothing but a weak, sexy nympho and the man as a super BA destroyer of worlds you want to be like.
Yes, the woman isn't a muscle bound freak like the guy- I am curious as to how being a muscle freak is a woman's power fantasy- but I won't pretend I speak for all women, since there's two here who clearly disagree. The women are toned, but they have muscles, and they aren't slender branches- in fact, I'd say if anything their bodies are more similar to that of a female tennis or soccer player than a pop star.
Is the body a bit more perfect and perky than the average female in the world? Yeah, it is. Is it more scantily dressed? Gonna actually say no there.
I keep running into higher level female clerics and warriors who seem to be plated from to to neck- I'll admit that yes, rogue outfits probably show more skin than is logical- and wizards definitely dress far less than the males, though clothing for a wizard doesn't have as much use.
And I could point out that this is nothing new for MMORPGs, fantasy games or D&D in general, heck, even the strongest heroines in D&D books tend to be highly sexualized. And yeah, maybe games and D&D and mmorpgs and fantasy don't treat on average men in the same 'demeaning sexual way' they treat women. And perhaps this game isn't 'progressively making the world an equaller place for girls'.
But it really just seems like you guys want to make a big fuss about this game being a sexist travesty because that's a thing to do these days.
Does the female look as powerful as the male? No- but the male might be a power fantasy for guys who want to be Gears of War, and probably not many others. Would people in general want the female model to be buff, masculine and- whatever else you're asking for from it? Doubtful on that. I hate to say it- but you're saying women want a specific 'power fantasy' model, yet in the real world how popular are 'more powerful looking' women than what we're being presented with here with women?
The thing is- a male's power fantasy likely looks powerful, I don't think you'll find too many women though whose power fantasy is that skin deep.
If there was no choice for full looking armour I'd be on your side, as that has been a problem- and it is a shame that there's so much armour that does have holes in it, and not imo because it makes us look sexy... because it makes us look shoddy, like we took scissors to our outfits- something I think I might have done in high school, but afterwards would only be a consideration for clubbing, if I was really drunk.
But, there's good looking, full armour sets, and other than the lack of options early game, I haven't seen anything horrible in the gear of this game.
If there was no choice for full looking armour I'd be on your side, as that has been a problem- and it is a shame that there's so much armour that does have holes in it, and not imo because it makes us look sexy... because it makes us look shoddy, like we took scissors to our outfits- something I think I might have done in high school, but afterwards would only be a consideration for clubbing, if I was really drunk.
Oh! That's what the look of the low end rouge and wizard gear reminded me of, I've been trying to think where I've seen a look like that before but it's just been on the tip of my tongue, thanks.
Thinking about it what would be nice would be a customization option for armor like the old Neverwinter Nights had in which you could choose between a handful of looks for each type of armor. In that game it was done using crafting checks, in this they could perhaps have use make (armor type here) Customization Kits as part of crafting that we could use similarly to how we can currently change a piece of armor to look like a different piece we have. That way everyone could be happy, or at least as close to that as we could ever get, people that want realistic armor can have it and those that want armor with "shoot me here" windows can have that.
What would be even better would be to have the above and let us use normal armor parts as part of our fashion outfit that way the customization could go even further letting us mix and match stuff from other classes to make our toons look even more unique.
Yes, the woman isn't a muscle bound freak like the guy- I am curious as to how being a muscle freak is a woman's power fantasy- but I won't pretend I speak for all women, since there's two here who clearly disagree. The women are toned, but they have muscles, and they aren't slender branches- in fact, I'd say if anything their bodies are more similar to that of a female tennis or soccer player than a pop star.
Closer to is not close enough. Yes they're less twiggy than most games. That doesn't mean they're not sexualized compared to their male counterparts.
I keep running into higher level female clerics and warriors who seem to be plated from to to neck- I'll admit that yes, rogue outfits probably show more skin than is logical- and wizards definitely dress far less than the males, though clothing for a wizard doesn't have as much use.
Those "Plated to the Neck" characters are wearing something in their "Shirt" and "Pants" slots. All of the female armor I have found and seen has holes in it to show off how sexy the female characters are. But thanks to the bonuses on the underarmor people wear it. The suggestion, here, is to hide it so people can have more eye-candy. Seriously. that's what the OP wants. More eye candy.
And I could point out that this is nothing new for MMORPGs, fantasy games or D&D in general, heck, even the strongest heroines in D&D books tend to be highly sexualized. And yeah, maybe games and D&D and mmorpgs and fantasy don't treat on average men in the same 'demeaning sexual way' they treat women. And perhaps this game isn't 'progressively making the world an equaller place for girls'.
Yes. Female characters have been sexualized in the past. That doesn't make it a good thing to continue doing it. It just makes it the status quo. If it were -just- this MMO or -just- a movie or -just- a comic or whatever it wouldn't even be a thing. But it's books and movies and games. To the point where Capcom flatly told a game studio trying to pitch them a game "Ditch the female main character" because she was strong and independent. Just vecause there has been general nastiness in the past doesn't mean we should accept it, today.
But it really just seems like you guys want to make a big fuss about this game being a sexist travesty because that's a thing to do these days.
I make a fuss because it annoys me. I make a fuss because I hate the gender role which locks me down in conversations and people's opinions of me because I don't want children. I make a fuss because that's the only way anything will ever get changed. Do you think women's suffrage occurred because men just decided from the beneficence of their hearts to give women the right to vote? The first ever protest in front of the white house was performed by women seeking suffrage. And at that time there were still women saying "No, it's okay. We don't need to vote."
Does the female look as powerful as the male? No- but the male might be a power fantasy for guys who want to be Gears of War, and probably not many others. Would people in general want the female model to be buff, masculine and- whatever else you're asking for from it? Doubtful on that. I hate to say it- but you're saying women want a specific 'power fantasy' model, yet in the real world how popular are 'more powerful looking' women than what we're being presented with here with women?
Your argument implies that there's no external media bias in the "Real World". There is. That's why the general perception of feminine beauty is no longer Rubenesque and is instead thin. Does Superman qualify only for "Gears of War" guys? 'Cause he's been the flagship power fantasy for guys for a long time (at least in DC).
The thing is- a male's power fantasy likely looks powerful, I don't think you'll find too many women though whose power fantasy is that skin deep.
Probably not, nope. Most female power fantasies are, like most female sexual fantasies, nuanced. That doesn't mean depicting them as a male sexual fantasy empowers them in any way, it just makes them a male sexual fantasy on that surface. However notice the posture and positioning of that female model. Glance off to one side, feet together. That's not a powerful figure, it's a submissive one. Does the female model HAVE to be a male sexual fantasy in order to be a female power fantasy? No. So why are you defending it being a male sexual fantasy?
If there was no choice for full looking armour I'd be on your side, as that has been a problem- and it is a shame that there's so much armour that does have holes in it, and not imo because it makes us look sexy... because it makes us look shoddy, like we took scissors to our outfits- something I think I might have done in high school, but afterwards would only be a consideration for clubbing, if I was really drunk.
But, there's good looking, full armour sets, and other than the lack of options early game, I haven't seen anything horrible in the gear of this game.
There are no full armor sets for women. There are only armor sets with holes in them worn over underarmor. If you load up the Foundry and put a female character in the world you can edit her costume and see, literally, every costume item available for PCs (listed as a name followed by a letter usually A through E) and several of the ones for NPCs. Here's the final (Masterful) armor for the Cleric and both Fighter types on a Tiefling. There are 2 versions of each because there is a separate set for each Paragon Path. Currently there is only one Paragon Path per class, though. Thus two sets of armor.
What's funny is the cleric has more armor on than the Guardian Fighter. Clerics are both on bottom. Guardian is left, Great Weapon is right. I didn't bother to get side or back views, but there you go. At high end my Half Orc Great weapon Fighter will have a hole in her scale mail to show off her chest and her side. I'll have to wear chainmail underneath it which is, really, just tacky as all heck. But it's either that or bare some skin in combat, which is even more ridiculous.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
But thanks to the bonuses on the underarmor people wear it. The suggestion, here, is to hide it so people can have more eye-candy. Seriously. that's what the OP wants. More eye candy.
Well, the suggestion is to let us hide the shirt and pants. The reason behind that suggestion is more eye candy.
Isn't it possible to agree with the suggestion (hiding the items) while disagreeing with the OP's specific reasoning? I'd like to see the visuals for shirts be hide-able for both genders, simply because it gives more visual options.
I'd also like to see less prawntastic female armor added to the game. But I want to see more options in general, not less.
I'm not comparing her to "The Average Female" I'm comparing her to her male counterpart.
Those "Plated to the Neck" characters are wearing something in their "Shirt" and "Pants" slots. All of the female armor I have found and seen has holes in it to show off how sexy the female characters are. But thanks to the bonuses on the underarmor people wear it. The suggestion, here, is to hide it so people can have more eye-candy. Seriously. that's what the OP wants. More eye candy.
Yes. Female characters have been sexualized in the past. That doesn't make it a good thing to continue doing it. It just makes it the status quo. If it were -just- this MMO or -just- a movie or -just- a comic or whatever it wouldn't even be a thing. But it's books and movies and games. To the point where Capcom flatly told a game studio trying to pitch them a game "Ditch the female main character" because she was strong and independent. Just vecause there has been general nastiness in the past doesn't mean we should accept it, today.
I make a fuss because it annoys me. I make a fuss because I hate the gender role which locks me down in conversations and people's opinions of me because I don't want children. I make a fuss because that's the only way anything will ever get changed. Do you think women's suffrage occurred because men just decided from the beneficence of their hearts to give women the right to vote? The first ever protest in front of the white house was performed by women seeking suffrage. And at that time there were still women saying "No, it's okay. We don't need to vote."
You can make your fuss- but I'm just as obligated to say you're being absurd- considering this diatribe has now gone as far as comparing the OPTION to turn pants/shirt animations off, that YOU do not have to even use- into what I believe is comparing me, for not sharing that view, to women who were brainwashed in a time where a woman couldn't speak her mind and were fine with not having the most basic of rights. I'm perfectly adept at sharing my point of view, even if I don't buy into this 'we gotta push harder until men stop ogling us with their dirty eyes' fad that is all the rage with people who have run out of meaningful things to worry about.
And please- superman was a power fantasy fifty years ago, something that has kept up with comic books because -since we seem to be thriving off of stereotypes here- your average comic book collector is weak and has trouble getting women. Notice how the new average 'hero' is slowly becoming more and more guys like Drake, Indiana Jones, Johnny Depp- because the new male 'power fantasy' is a lot more realistic. I really doubt you're going to find a whole lot of guys here who would say the muscle bound mutants in this game are their 'power fantasies'.
But then again- the entire thing is fully your opinion- that these female models are sex fantasies but not power fantasies, and vice versa for the guy models. At the end of the day, you're still not explaining what woman 'want' the female models to look like, or what men 'want' the male models to look like, since it's entirely opinion- and quite frankly, what you consider to what should have been done, someone else might consider sexist.
Also- as you said, those plated to the neck are wearing shirts/pants below- guess what, OP wasn't asking for pants/shirts to vanish, he was asking for an OPTION.
I don't know about you, but it bothers me a wee bit more that some 'guy' designer has deemed it so that I can or can't have an option than it does that he's put a bunch of poorly designed costumes into the game.
and
Maybe too much cleavage for you- but that's my level 30 rogue, and frankly I think she looks awesome, powerful, fantasy-ish, sexy, whatever else. I've chosen to wear the pants/shirt cuz it suits her- but that's my choice, and while I can get behind your complaints of a lack of options in this game, I can't get behind you when you're trying to argue against options being given- even if they are some perceived threat to gender equality or whatever.
You can make your fuss- but I'm just as obligated to say you're being absurd- considering this diatribe has now gone as far as comparing the OPTION to turn pants/shirt animations off, that YOU do not have to even use- into what I believe is comparing me, for not sharing that view, to women who were brainwashed in a time where a woman couldn't speak her mind and were fine with not having the most basic of rights. I'm perfectly adept at sharing my point of view, even if I don't buy into this 'we gotta push harder until men stop ogling us with their dirty eyes' fad that is all the rage with people who have run out of meaningful things to worry about.
if they achieve that things will get ugly, men are naturally attracted to image, we have sex with our eyes before we do anything else, women are mostly different, having it on touch and smells, and I'm talking about before. If they achieve men not caring about how they look, I mean, they wandering around naked, well, you think of something, I prefer to simply present facts!
so much for so little, the world has too many dumb people, but wth? That's how they make money!
Those pics serve to show what I meant about the weird holes in the armor for females. Most fantasy games if they want to have sexy armor go for the whole plunging neckline or bear midriff look, but these.... well it just looks odd. A good chunk of the skin showing in those is from weird gaps off to the side of the waist and such that makes the armor look incomplete or damaged. I mean at least with the "normal" bikini plate junk you see in these games at least looks like "yes this is how this armor is supposed to look, fanservice-y as it may be." These it just plan looks like the smith ran out of plates and decided "ah well she has two kidneys for a reason" and tossed it in the pile of complete suits.
You can make your fuss- but I'm just as obligated to say you're being absurd- considering this diatribe has now gone as far as comparing the OPTION to turn pants/shirt animations off, that YOU do not have to even use- into what I believe is comparing me, for not sharing that view, to women who were brainwashed in a time where a woman couldn't speak her mind and were fine with not having the most basic of rights. I'm perfectly adept at sharing my point of view, even if I don't buy into this 'we gotta push harder until men stop ogling us with their dirty eyes' fad that is all the rage with people who have run out of meaningful things to worry about.
So you don't understand feminism and sexism or social convention. Got it. Women weren't "Brainwashed" into not sharing their opinion during the fight for suffrage. They just didn't think it was important enough to fight for. It was something they'd never had. Never cared about. Why change it? Heck, look at all the backlash against it. And so it was something they gave up on. They didn't understand the importance of it and just walked away. I think you're inured to the sexism around you. It's been a constant enough thing in your life to not matter to you anymore. It's just "How things are and how they've always been" so why bother changing things?
I really don't think men have dirty eyes and they're certainly not ogling -me- when they look at a character in a game. However the expectations of catering to men in the creation of media means that that media caters to no one else directly. And any benefit others gain is purely happenstance. And that's wrong. The answer is, of course, to stop it. To cater to all comers equally.
But no matter what, there will be people who just don't think there is a problem. It's what they're used to. It's normalized sexism.
And please- superman was a power fantasy fifty years ago, something that has kept up with comic books because -since we seem to be thriving off of stereotypes here- your average comic book collector is weak and has trouble getting women. Notice how the new average 'hero' is slowly becoming more and more guys like Drake, Indiana Jones, Johnny Depp- because the new male 'power fantasy' is a lot more realistic. I really doubt you're going to find a whole lot of guys here who would say the muscle bound mutants in this game are their 'power fantasies'.
Superman is a power fantasy character because he embodies male physical strength and power fantasy. The character is just a stand in for the reader who inserts themself into the position of a powerful character who accomplishes great deeds and gets the girl. The imagery supports this by having superman by white with dark hair, like the majority of white American men. This is similarly why female characters in comics are often depicted as supermodel-thin and bent at odd angles to show off all of their... shall we say "Assets"? So the reader can get a full view of the character, even if it makes the rest of the scene make no sense.
Superman is one of only a handful of comic book characters to not only survive over 80 years, now (1933), but also still be popular enough to have multiple movie franchises, cartoon series, and one of the highest grossing superhero merchandising brands of all time. Yes, comic books are less popular today than they were 50 years ago, but like Marvel DC is going cross-medium.
The "Average" hero has always been the Alan Quatermaine and the Indiana Jones. And like Alan they're usually around for a while and then gone, because they were meant to be more "Realistic" and less "Iconographic" heroes. It's not a new trend at all, Doctor Death. It's been that way for a long time.
But then again- the entire thing is fully your opinion- that these female models are sex fantasies but not power fantasies, and vice versa for the guy models. At the end of the day, you're still not explaining what woman 'want' the female models to look like, or what men 'want' the male models to look like, since it's entirely opinion- and quite frankly, what you consider to what should have been done, someone else might consider sexist.
I don't know what women would want the female models to look like. We haven't been catered to, constantly, by society since it's inception, so there isn't a single stereotypical ideal for female sexual fantasy. And no. The sexism here is not a matter of opinion. Those two character models are presented in different ways on the basis of their sex. The armor models in this game are presented in two different ways on the basis of their sex. That's the wonderful thing about words like Sexism. They have definitions. Someone else might -think- I'm suggesting something sexist, but they'd be wrong. Because I'm suggesting both be presented in the same manner, which is the opposite of sexism.
Also- as you said, those plated to the neck are wearing shirts/pants below- guess what, OP wasn't asking for pants/shirts to vanish, he was asking for an OPTION.
I don't know about you, but it bothers me a wee bit more that some 'guy' designer has deemed it so that I can or can't have an option than it does that he's put a bunch of poorly designed costumes into the game.
Yes. He wants the option to have his characters run around in less clothing. Even naked as noted a little later in the thread if he was also allowed to hide armor. And if it were -only- him or -only- this one game I wouldn't care so much. But it isn't happening in a vacuum. I want to go through this game having a great time kicking *** and looking at the Power Fantasy in an Action MMORPG. Not be bombarded by his sexual fantasy or the sexual fantasy of many other male players also playing the game.
Frankly I'd love to have a character and a place that does not deal with sexism or sexual fantasy at all. But everywhere I look it's waiting. Eye Candy, Submissive Positions, Big <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that you can't shrink down no matter how hard you try.
Maybe too much cleavage for you- but that's my level 30 rogue, and frankly I think she looks awesome, powerful, fantasy-ish, sexy, whatever else. I've chosen to wear the pants/shirt cuz it suits her- but that's my choice, and while I can get behind your complaints of a lack of options in this game, I can't get behind you when you're trying to argue against options being given- even if they are some perceived threat to gender equality or whatever.
I'm fine with more options given. You're giving, however, false equivalence. The idea that all options are fundamentally equal. They're not. The option this thread is asking for is sexism and eye candy and more nudity that I don't want to be bombarded with while fighting ogres and werewolves and dragons. The option to cover up more is not fundamentally equal to pulling off more clothes. One has an appropriate setting basis (Being armored in combat) while the other promotes treating women like eye-candy. A "Choice" which leads to sexual depictions of female characters while male characters continue being depicted as power fantasies is not the same as wanting "More Variety". It has variety in it, but it isn't at all equal.
I'm comfortable with cleavage, Doctor Death. That isn't what this is about. It has, however, become painfully apparent that you are unwilling to actually try to understand what this is about. So I suggest we stop discussing it, as both of our opinions have been heard (rather clearly).
I honestly envy you.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
Seriously. All this armor seems to be designed to give a bit of eye candy (not quite bikini armor, but some skin is showing), yet it's all hidden by ugly chain mail. We can hide helms and capes, why not shirts/pants?
What if you take an arrow to the knee with no pants on?
Superman is a power fantasy character because he embodies male physical strength and power fantasy. The character is just a stand in for the reader who inserts themself into the position of a powerful character who accomplishes great deeds and gets the girl.
This may be part of the reason why some of this doesn't resonate with me - I've never done that. I can honestly not recall a time in my life when I imagined myself in the role or position of some character in a book/movie/comic/whatever. I had no "I want to be HIM when I grow up!" heroes. Perhaps a bit of "that job seems cool", but nothing specific to a character. I went through my "I want to be a paleontologist cause dinosaurs are COOL!" 7-year-old phase long before Jurassic Park, for instance, so the job had no character attachment.
(Those threads on the Skyrim/WoW/etc forums, "If you were suddenly in <game world>, what would you do?" People respond with their various kick-butt plans, and the only thing I reply is "Die horribly, most likely. Because I don't have the skills/physical training/etc needed to survive in that environment." The perennial "Why would a guy play a female character, that's <insert homophic slurs here>" threads have guys saying "Well, I can't relate to a female character." Yeah, but I can't relate to the standard no-neck marine/action hero, either. But that's fine, since I don't insert myself into the characters - they're just action figures/dolls/playing pieces that I'm moving around on a gameboard.)
/shrug
What if you take an arrow to the knee with no pants on?
I agree with the above post. When I play my characters, I'm not "being them"; I'm more of a person narrating their experiences, a director in a movie, or a storyteller.
I honestly wish we had the option to hide every armor piece. I spent all that time getting the Cloak Tower pieces for my drow rogue and she looked awesome...until she put on those non matching Ugg Boots.
I spent all that time getting the Cloak Tower pieces for my drow rogue and she looked awesome...until she put on those non matching Ugg Boots.
Well, hiding the boots (so she's barefoot) wouldn't really be what you want there. Transferring a good boot model to the ugly ones works.... of course, it's a bunch of AD to do it, especially while you're leveling and you get replacements so fast.
There is a switch to hide all the armor if that is what you are asking for. It's on the character sheet, towards the bottom right of your toon, I think. It's by the rotate toon icons. You may need to use the tool tip to figure out which icon it is.
There is a switch to hide all the armor if that is what you are asking for. It's on the character sheet, towards the bottom right of your toon, I think. It's by the rotate toon icons. You may need to use the tool tip to figure out which icon it is.
That would be the fashion tab, and has been mentioned several times. The logic being if you can play naked, what is wrong with hiding specific pieces of gear. We have a broken record feminist that seems to have picked up the torch in terms of saying anything and everything that changes in this case would be 'gender inequality' and hurt the female cause.
Personally I'm starting to this whoever it is is just a very skilled troll, it's nearly impossible to believe someone could be that ignorant.
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zovyaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
You're talking about a game where you murder, steal, cheat, kill, disembowel and behead other people. Is it really a big deal if the characters show a little skin? Come on.
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alopexiaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 16
edited May 2013
I'm a female player and I would love to see the option of disabling shirt/pant visuals, because I do not like seeing ugly armor (very shallow but hey, this is a game!)
About this whole "feminism" argument...If you really want to talk about what is "natural", well you should read some sociobiology literature and maybe study evolutionary bio, because you will soon realize how simple things actually are, and why we are attracted to certain things. Female selection for mates actually poses much harsher standards, and definitely isn't non existent. Males have never been the only "objectifying" sex.
I will ask this - as a woman, do you not buy beautiful clothes that will exaggerated certain features, or think there are certain colors that work best with your complexion? Do you not buy make-up or get a haircut every month? I assume you never wear heals?
I believe that if women really wanted equality and they were confident enough in their own strength, they really wouldn't care how naked someone else is. I think that female form is a work of art (and so do many artists), it is so beautiful, why shouldn't I and everyone else enjoy it? I have always worked in a field dominated by males - first film industry, now science and academia, but I never felt inferior, because I know what my worth is. But I also like looking beautiful and I see nothing wrong with wearing a sexy dress or showing off my figure. Not because of the way it makes people look at me, but because I actually like looking at myself (sounds very narcissistic there, sorry).
In every game I have played I have made my characters look the way I (emphasis on "I") found attractive - and a lot of times they wear rather revealing clothing. Why should it be limited? How is it less "sexist" to tell me I can not wear a short skirt or have my super strong fighter woman in a game wear a revealing armor? And if someone wants to make a helpless princess to be saved, why shouldn't they have a right to fantasize about that? It is a game, it is fictional, it really has nothing to do with the real world - or at least it shouldn't - it is not a political book or some groundbreaking art film...Please, leave your social and political battles to where they belong.
The sexism issue is a bit misplaced since you already can hide everything (and some of the costume outfits show quite a bit of skin too).
I don't really see the issue with allowing players to hide their shirts/pants, or really any piece of armor for that matter - you already can with no combat effectiveness drop.
Good lord. It's as if people have no reading comprehension, whatsoever, and are only interested in throwing fallacies at me.
I give up. Clearly people, here, are more interested in listening with the intent to reply than the intent to understand.
-Rachel-
Clearly nobody understands the truth you are attempting to spread. Go on, fair maiden, and blaze your trail some place where it matters. Like outside. Try targetting advertisement companies. The guys that stick half naked women into the adds for just about everything. I promise it will make more of a difference than crusading against video game pixels.
Isn’t there a way to reskin armor? I admit that I am not knowledgeable in this but I seem to think that there is a way to give one set of armor the look of another. Is that a thing?
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited May 2013
It would be nice if we were able to hide any piece of equipment instead of just the helm: it would give us much more control over the way our characters look.
Isn’t there a way to reskin armor? I admit that I am not knowledgeable in this but I seem to think that there is a way to give one set of armor the look of another. Is that a thing?
Yea you can do the change appearance option that lets you dye stuff and instead drop another item of the same type in there. I think there are some restrictions (certain items can't be changed, etc).
Isn’t there a way to reskin armor? I admit that I am not knowledgeable in this but I seem to think that there is a way to give one set of armor the look of another. Is that a thing?
There is, but I believe all of the armor classes are still restricted by class, and all of the mailsmith shirts/pants have an identical skin. That's the crux of it for me - as a GWF, I am basically wearing a chainmail bodysuit.
Comments
Yes. And that's fine. You're a woman making a female character as an extension of yourself. Good on you for doing it.
That doesn't change the fact that the character model and character dimorphism caters to male power and sexual fantasies.
-Rachel-
(And it probably doesn't matter that I think the female one looks strong. Sturdy body & limbs, not the tall/willowy/thin "model" look that you see in some games. Which also reminds me that I noticed - when making my first female character - that Cryptic had toned down the body proportions since Star Trek - the bust/waist/hips aren't as exaggerated as in the previous game. All in all, it seemed like they moved more towards a more toned-down look than their last game.)
Liefeld, for example draws Cable as this big muscular mosntrosity:
And here's his rendition of Enchantress:
Both are horrific monstrosities of human anatomy, but Cable is designed for male power fantasy and Enchantress for male sexual fantasy... Even if you'd need to be incredibly twisted to see her as sexy. The longer you look at either image the more horrific it gets... but they remain power and sex.
-Rachel-
Make it as fair as we can and I'll be pleased as punch. If you want the ability to show off more skin and I want the ability to show off less then that's fine. I just hope any such decisions are also applied to male models to try and make things as fair as possible.
-Rachel-
Clearly you're wrong if you don't see the woman as nothing but a weak, sexy nympho and the man as a super BA destroyer of worlds you want to be like.
Yes, the woman isn't a muscle bound freak like the guy- I am curious as to how being a muscle freak is a woman's power fantasy- but I won't pretend I speak for all women, since there's two here who clearly disagree. The women are toned, but they have muscles, and they aren't slender branches- in fact, I'd say if anything their bodies are more similar to that of a female tennis or soccer player than a pop star.
Is the body a bit more perfect and perky than the average female in the world? Yeah, it is. Is it more scantily dressed? Gonna actually say no there.
I keep running into higher level female clerics and warriors who seem to be plated from to to neck- I'll admit that yes, rogue outfits probably show more skin than is logical- and wizards definitely dress far less than the males, though clothing for a wizard doesn't have as much use.
And I could point out that this is nothing new for MMORPGs, fantasy games or D&D in general, heck, even the strongest heroines in D&D books tend to be highly sexualized. And yeah, maybe games and D&D and mmorpgs and fantasy don't treat on average men in the same 'demeaning sexual way' they treat women. And perhaps this game isn't 'progressively making the world an equaller place for girls'.
But it really just seems like you guys want to make a big fuss about this game being a sexist travesty because that's a thing to do these days.
Does the female look as powerful as the male? No- but the male might be a power fantasy for guys who want to be Gears of War, and probably not many others. Would people in general want the female model to be buff, masculine and- whatever else you're asking for from it? Doubtful on that. I hate to say it- but you're saying women want a specific 'power fantasy' model, yet in the real world how popular are 'more powerful looking' women than what we're being presented with here with women?
The thing is- a male's power fantasy likely looks powerful, I don't think you'll find too many women though whose power fantasy is that skin deep.
If there was no choice for full looking armour I'd be on your side, as that has been a problem- and it is a shame that there's so much armour that does have holes in it, and not imo because it makes us look sexy... because it makes us look shoddy, like we took scissors to our outfits- something I think I might have done in high school, but afterwards would only be a consideration for clubbing, if I was really drunk.
But, there's good looking, full armour sets, and other than the lack of options early game, I haven't seen anything horrible in the gear of this game.
Oh! That's what the look of the low end rouge and wizard gear reminded me of, I've been trying to think where I've seen a look like that before but it's just been on the tip of my tongue, thanks.
Thinking about it what would be nice would be a customization option for armor like the old Neverwinter Nights had in which you could choose between a handful of looks for each type of armor. In that game it was done using crafting checks, in this they could perhaps have use make (armor type here) Customization Kits as part of crafting that we could use similarly to how we can currently change a piece of armor to look like a different piece we have. That way everyone could be happy, or at least as close to that as we could ever get, people that want realistic armor can have it and those that want armor with "shoot me here" windows can have that.
What would be even better would be to have the above and let us use normal armor parts as part of our fashion outfit that way the customization could go even further letting us mix and match stuff from other classes to make our toons look even more unique.
Your hyperbolic strawman statement is useless.
Closer to is not close enough. Yes they're less twiggy than most games. That doesn't mean they're not sexualized compared to their male counterparts.
I'm not comparing her to "The Average Female" I'm comparing her to her male counterpart.
Those "Plated to the Neck" characters are wearing something in their "Shirt" and "Pants" slots. All of the female armor I have found and seen has holes in it to show off how sexy the female characters are. But thanks to the bonuses on the underarmor people wear it. The suggestion, here, is to hide it so people can have more eye-candy. Seriously. that's what the OP wants. More eye candy.
Yes. Female characters have been sexualized in the past. That doesn't make it a good thing to continue doing it. It just makes it the status quo. If it were -just- this MMO or -just- a movie or -just- a comic or whatever it wouldn't even be a thing. But it's books and movies and games. To the point where Capcom flatly told a game studio trying to pitch them a game "Ditch the female main character" because she was strong and independent. Just vecause there has been general nastiness in the past doesn't mean we should accept it, today.
I make a fuss because it annoys me. I make a fuss because I hate the gender role which locks me down in conversations and people's opinions of me because I don't want children. I make a fuss because that's the only way anything will ever get changed. Do you think women's suffrage occurred because men just decided from the beneficence of their hearts to give women the right to vote? The first ever protest in front of the white house was performed by women seeking suffrage. And at that time there were still women saying "No, it's okay. We don't need to vote."
Your argument implies that there's no external media bias in the "Real World". There is. That's why the general perception of feminine beauty is no longer Rubenesque and is instead thin. Does Superman qualify only for "Gears of War" guys? 'Cause he's been the flagship power fantasy for guys for a long time (at least in DC).
Probably not, nope. Most female power fantasies are, like most female sexual fantasies, nuanced. That doesn't mean depicting them as a male sexual fantasy empowers them in any way, it just makes them a male sexual fantasy on that surface. However notice the posture and positioning of that female model. Glance off to one side, feet together. That's not a powerful figure, it's a submissive one. Does the female model HAVE to be a male sexual fantasy in order to be a female power fantasy? No. So why are you defending it being a male sexual fantasy?
There are no full armor sets for women. There are only armor sets with holes in them worn over underarmor. If you load up the Foundry and put a female character in the world you can edit her costume and see, literally, every costume item available for PCs (listed as a name followed by a letter usually A through E) and several of the ones for NPCs. Here's the final (Masterful) armor for the Cleric and both Fighter types on a Tiefling. There are 2 versions of each because there is a separate set for each Paragon Path. Currently there is only one Paragon Path per class, though. Thus two sets of armor.
What's funny is the cleric has more armor on than the Guardian Fighter. Clerics are both on bottom. Guardian is left, Great Weapon is right. I didn't bother to get side or back views, but there you go. At high end my Half Orc Great weapon Fighter will have a hole in her scale mail to show off her chest and her side. I'll have to wear chainmail underneath it which is, really, just tacky as all heck. But it's either that or bare some skin in combat, which is even more ridiculous.
-Rachel-
Well, the suggestion is to let us hide the shirt and pants. The reason behind that suggestion is more eye candy.
Isn't it possible to agree with the suggestion (hiding the items) while disagreeing with the OP's specific reasoning? I'd like to see the visuals for shirts be hide-able for both genders, simply because it gives more visual options.
I'd also like to see less prawntastic female armor added to the game. But I want to see more options in general, not less.
You can make your fuss- but I'm just as obligated to say you're being absurd- considering this diatribe has now gone as far as comparing the OPTION to turn pants/shirt animations off, that YOU do not have to even use- into what I believe is comparing me, for not sharing that view, to women who were brainwashed in a time where a woman couldn't speak her mind and were fine with not having the most basic of rights. I'm perfectly adept at sharing my point of view, even if I don't buy into this 'we gotta push harder until men stop ogling us with their dirty eyes' fad that is all the rage with people who have run out of meaningful things to worry about.
And please- superman was a power fantasy fifty years ago, something that has kept up with comic books because -since we seem to be thriving off of stereotypes here- your average comic book collector is weak and has trouble getting women. Notice how the new average 'hero' is slowly becoming more and more guys like Drake, Indiana Jones, Johnny Depp- because the new male 'power fantasy' is a lot more realistic. I really doubt you're going to find a whole lot of guys here who would say the muscle bound mutants in this game are their 'power fantasies'.
But then again- the entire thing is fully your opinion- that these female models are sex fantasies but not power fantasies, and vice versa for the guy models. At the end of the day, you're still not explaining what woman 'want' the female models to look like, or what men 'want' the male models to look like, since it's entirely opinion- and quite frankly, what you consider to what should have been done, someone else might consider sexist.
Also- as you said, those plated to the neck are wearing shirts/pants below- guess what, OP wasn't asking for pants/shirts to vanish, he was asking for an OPTION.
I don't know about you, but it bothers me a wee bit more that some 'guy' designer has deemed it so that I can or can't have an option than it does that he's put a bunch of poorly designed costumes into the game.
and
Maybe too much cleavage for you- but that's my level 30 rogue, and frankly I think she looks awesome, powerful, fantasy-ish, sexy, whatever else. I've chosen to wear the pants/shirt cuz it suits her- but that's my choice, and while I can get behind your complaints of a lack of options in this game, I can't get behind you when you're trying to argue against options being given- even if they are some perceived threat to gender equality or whatever.
if they achieve that things will get ugly, men are naturally attracted to image, we have sex with our eyes before we do anything else, women are mostly different, having it on touch and smells, and I'm talking about before. If they achieve men not caring about how they look, I mean, they wandering around naked, well, you think of something, I prefer to simply present facts!
So you don't understand feminism and sexism or social convention. Got it. Women weren't "Brainwashed" into not sharing their opinion during the fight for suffrage. They just didn't think it was important enough to fight for. It was something they'd never had. Never cared about. Why change it? Heck, look at all the backlash against it. And so it was something they gave up on. They didn't understand the importance of it and just walked away. I think you're inured to the sexism around you. It's been a constant enough thing in your life to not matter to you anymore. It's just "How things are and how they've always been" so why bother changing things?
I really don't think men have dirty eyes and they're certainly not ogling -me- when they look at a character in a game. However the expectations of catering to men in the creation of media means that that media caters to no one else directly. And any benefit others gain is purely happenstance. And that's wrong. The answer is, of course, to stop it. To cater to all comers equally.
But no matter what, there will be people who just don't think there is a problem. It's what they're used to. It's normalized sexism.
Superman is a power fantasy character because he embodies male physical strength and power fantasy. The character is just a stand in for the reader who inserts themself into the position of a powerful character who accomplishes great deeds and gets the girl. The imagery supports this by having superman by white with dark hair, like the majority of white American men. This is similarly why female characters in comics are often depicted as supermodel-thin and bent at odd angles to show off all of their... shall we say "Assets"? So the reader can get a full view of the character, even if it makes the rest of the scene make no sense.
Superman is one of only a handful of comic book characters to not only survive over 80 years, now (1933), but also still be popular enough to have multiple movie franchises, cartoon series, and one of the highest grossing superhero merchandising brands of all time. Yes, comic books are less popular today than they were 50 years ago, but like Marvel DC is going cross-medium.
The "Average" hero has always been the Alan Quatermaine and the Indiana Jones. And like Alan they're usually around for a while and then gone, because they were meant to be more "Realistic" and less "Iconographic" heroes. It's not a new trend at all, Doctor Death. It's been that way for a long time.
I don't know what women would want the female models to look like. We haven't been catered to, constantly, by society since it's inception, so there isn't a single stereotypical ideal for female sexual fantasy. And no. The sexism here is not a matter of opinion. Those two character models are presented in different ways on the basis of their sex. The armor models in this game are presented in two different ways on the basis of their sex. That's the wonderful thing about words like Sexism. They have definitions. Someone else might -think- I'm suggesting something sexist, but they'd be wrong. Because I'm suggesting both be presented in the same manner, which is the opposite of sexism.
Yes. He wants the option to have his characters run around in less clothing. Even naked as noted a little later in the thread if he was also allowed to hide armor. And if it were -only- him or -only- this one game I wouldn't care so much. But it isn't happening in a vacuum. I want to go through this game having a great time kicking *** and looking at the Power Fantasy in an Action MMORPG. Not be bombarded by his sexual fantasy or the sexual fantasy of many other male players also playing the game.
Frankly I'd love to have a character and a place that does not deal with sexism or sexual fantasy at all. But everywhere I look it's waiting. Eye Candy, Submissive Positions, Big <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that you can't shrink down no matter how hard you try.
I'm fine with more options given. You're giving, however, false equivalence. The idea that all options are fundamentally equal. They're not. The option this thread is asking for is sexism and eye candy and more nudity that I don't want to be bombarded with while fighting ogres and werewolves and dragons. The option to cover up more is not fundamentally equal to pulling off more clothes. One has an appropriate setting basis (Being armored in combat) while the other promotes treating women like eye-candy. A "Choice" which leads to sexual depictions of female characters while male characters continue being depicted as power fantasies is not the same as wanting "More Variety". It has variety in it, but it isn't at all equal.
I'm comfortable with cleavage, Doctor Death. That isn't what this is about. It has, however, become painfully apparent that you are unwilling to actually try to understand what this is about. So I suggest we stop discussing it, as both of our opinions have been heard (rather clearly).
I honestly envy you.
-Rachel-
This may be part of the reason why some of this doesn't resonate with me - I've never done that. I can honestly not recall a time in my life when I imagined myself in the role or position of some character in a book/movie/comic/whatever. I had no "I want to be HIM when I grow up!" heroes. Perhaps a bit of "that job seems cool", but nothing specific to a character. I went through my "I want to be a paleontologist cause dinosaurs are COOL!" 7-year-old phase long before Jurassic Park, for instance, so the job had no character attachment.
(Those threads on the Skyrim/WoW/etc forums, "If you were suddenly in <game world>, what would you do?" People respond with their various kick-butt plans, and the only thing I reply is "Die horribly, most likely. Because I don't have the skills/physical training/etc needed to survive in that environment." The perennial "Why would a guy play a female character, that's <insert homophic slurs here>" threads have guys saying "Well, I can't relate to a female character." Yeah, but I can't relate to the standard no-neck marine/action hero, either. But that's fine, since I don't insert myself into the characters - they're just action figures/dolls/playing pieces that I'm moving around on a gameboard.)
/shrug
...then he'd no longer be an adventurer like you.
I honestly wish we had the option to hide every armor piece. I spent all that time getting the Cloak Tower pieces for my drow rogue and she looked awesome...until she put on those non matching Ugg Boots.
Well, hiding the boots (so she's barefoot) wouldn't really be what you want there. Transferring a good boot model to the ugly ones works.... of course, it's a bunch of AD to do it, especially while you're leveling and you get replacements so fast.
That would be the fashion tab, and has been mentioned several times. The logic being if you can play naked, what is wrong with hiding specific pieces of gear. We have a broken record feminist that seems to have picked up the torch in terms of saying anything and everything that changes in this case would be 'gender inequality' and hurt the female cause.
Personally I'm starting to this whoever it is is just a very skilled troll, it's nearly impossible to believe someone could be that ignorant.
About this whole "feminism" argument...If you really want to talk about what is "natural", well you should read some sociobiology literature and maybe study evolutionary bio, because you will soon realize how simple things actually are, and why we are attracted to certain things. Female selection for mates actually poses much harsher standards, and definitely isn't non existent. Males have never been the only "objectifying" sex.
I will ask this - as a woman, do you not buy beautiful clothes that will exaggerated certain features, or think there are certain colors that work best with your complexion? Do you not buy make-up or get a haircut every month? I assume you never wear heals?
I believe that if women really wanted equality and they were confident enough in their own strength, they really wouldn't care how naked someone else is. I think that female form is a work of art (and so do many artists), it is so beautiful, why shouldn't I and everyone else enjoy it? I have always worked in a field dominated by males - first film industry, now science and academia, but I never felt inferior, because I know what my worth is. But I also like looking beautiful and I see nothing wrong with wearing a sexy dress or showing off my figure. Not because of the way it makes people look at me, but because I actually like looking at myself (sounds very narcissistic there, sorry).
In every game I have played I have made my characters look the way I (emphasis on "I") found attractive - and a lot of times they wear rather revealing clothing. Why should it be limited? How is it less "sexist" to tell me I can not wear a short skirt or have my super strong fighter woman in a game wear a revealing armor? And if someone wants to make a helpless princess to be saved, why shouldn't they have a right to fantasize about that? It is a game, it is fictional, it really has nothing to do with the real world - or at least it shouldn't - it is not a political book or some groundbreaking art film...Please, leave your social and political battles to where they belong.
I give up. Clearly people, here, are more interested in listening with the intent to reply than the intent to understand.
-Rachel-
I don't really see the issue with allowing players to hide their shirts/pants, or really any piece of armor for that matter - you already can with no combat effectiveness drop.
Clearly nobody understands the truth you are attempting to spread. Go on, fair maiden, and blaze your trail some place where it matters. Like outside. Try targetting advertisement companies. The guys that stick half naked women into the adds for just about everything. I promise it will make more of a difference than crusading against video game pixels.
Yea you can do the change appearance option that lets you dye stuff and instead drop another item of the same type in there. I think there are some restrictions (certain items can't be changed, etc).
There is, but I believe all of the armor classes are still restricted by class, and all of the mailsmith shirts/pants have an identical skin. That's the crux of it for me - as a GWF, I am basically wearing a chainmail bodysuit.