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Dungeonfinder; "No tank? See ya. /Quit."
bcvapor
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 285 Bounty Hunter
This is becoming more common as I zone into a dungeon and I don't blame them. So, same as in every trinity MMO since dawn of time, tanks and clerics are required in epics (of course), yet not nearly enough people play them, and also PuG to meet demand.
While great for them, not so for CC & DPS. The system tries, but I wonder how they can address this issue in this game this time?
Yeah, I don't want to play one, but maybe I'll play a GW or healer. Sitting around waiting blows, only to zone into 2 CW and 3 rogues, heh. Which then all quit so back to the queue.
While great for them, not so for CC & DPS. The system tries, but I wonder how they can address this issue in this game this time?
Yeah, I don't want to play one, but maybe I'll play a GW or healer. Sitting around waiting blows, only to zone into 2 CW and 3 rogues, heh. Which then all quit so back to the queue.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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They REALLY gotta work on this dungeon queue.
Except it's required in this game. This is not DND this is an MMO. Really wish you blind ****ers would stop defending things based on the premise of "well that's not in dnd or thats not how dnd does it." This is an mmo with DND slapped on the title. Nothing more.
Kind of hard to make a balanced group when you have 20 TR, 15 CW, 8 GWF, 8 Dc, and 3 GF. (Just a lower scale of the ques that maybe way off but its close to the point.)
Its because if they made sure there was a tank+healer before you went into a dungeon, the queue times would be an hour or more.
Which could be fixed simply with a viable tanking spec for GWF's but I don't really see that happening anytime soon either.
If they disclosed the ratio or percentage of the playerbase of each class being played, you might understand a little better. For an exaggerated example:
GF = 1%
GWF = 1%
DC = 1%
TR = 50%
CW = 47%
And then what if the GF or DC decides to solo instead?
Sorry broham, this IS a trinity game, perhaps you haven't played more epics?
Question is, how will cryptic handle it? It isn't like I've ever seen any abuse or even negative comments to either class, so maybe there are enough but the queue system is just too borked to grab them?
but he's right... can do cloak tower with out a full party...hell my friend and i DUO'd the cloak tower with 1 dps companion, as a rogue and CW wizard(control focus). It was actually pretty fun that way!
They all run 1-2 CW's, 1-2 TR's, a Cleric (Or two) and maybe a GWF.
In all honesty with the way that these dungeons are designed, the only difficulty spike is the number of adds that bosses spawn, and it's much easier to just bring lots of control, burst damage and support to deal with this than it is to watch a Guardian Fighter try to chase down 40 adds on your clerics.
(They won't be able to do anything to save him anyway, due to the manner in which threat is calculated in Neverwinter)
One such guide posted by a guildie is below, if it interests you read it, otherwise skip past (It's a long read)
Also, if you are tired of dungeon finder, get off your butt, join a guild and form your own premade parties. It's called a Massively Multiplayer Online game for a reason, reach out to people, build relationships and connections and have a great time doing it.
Compliments of Shake, Black Hearts, Dragon Shard
Why Is Tier 2 Harder Than Tier 1: because adds... in all seriousness... The main reason why tier 2 is more difficult than tier 1 is because every single boss fight consists of a massive amount of adds in comparison to tier 1 boss fights. Tier 2 trash is relatively easy to clear. Coming fresh out of tier 1's you should have no issue reaching the bosses themselves. Tier 2 bosses, however, will be difficult. Even the first and second bosses of an instance will be a challenge, comprable to the difficulty of a tier 1 end boss. Tier 2 end bosses will be EXTREMELY difficult basically entirely because they spawn massive amounts of adds. This may seem really boring, and I'll admit fights could be more interesting if Cryptic used other means to increase difficulty, but tier 2 has grown on me and I think its a pretty decent end game so far.
What Kind of Comp Will Work In Tier 2's? Unlike in Tier 1's, you can't just run any comp you want. This is not cloak tower. You can't bring 5 dps and finish the instance in 10 minutes. Since the difficulty of tier 2s comes almost entirely from adds, compoistions that can cc, quickly kill, or even kite adds are the most viable. My group has one of each class and we've fully cleared 2 tier 2s, killed 2/3 bosses on almost every other, and 3/4 of castle never. So every class can be viable, but I don't think our composition is optimal.
The strongest compositions in my opinion:
Wizard/Wizard/Cleric/Rogue/GWF
Wizard/Wizard/Wizard/Cleric/Cleric
Wizard/Wizard/Cleric/Cleric/GWF
Wizard/Wizard/Cleric/Cleric/Rogue
Wizard/Wizard/Cleric/Rogue/Rogue
Wizard/Cleric/Cleric/Rogue/GWF
Most optimal in my opinion?
Wizard/Wizard/Wizard/Cleric/Cleric
Wizard/Wizard/Cleric/Cleric/Rogue
Weak comps:
Anything with more than 1 GWF
Anything with a guardian fighter
Anything without a cleric
anyything without at least 1 control wizard
Why these comps? What deals with adds well? Control wizards are probably the most valuable class for dealing with adds because the wizard has both high AoE damage and high CC. The GWF can probably pull a bit more raw AoE damage however it lacks the CC and often relies on the wizard to pull targets together to maximize his damage. CCing adds is just as valuable as killing them fast. Tier 2's are about being able to survive with 30+ adds on you . You do have to kill them quickly because the respawn rate is extremely fast, so dps is important, but surviving is more important. Why are guardian fighters bad? In most tier 2 fights there is little to no reason to actually tank the boss, typically a rogue or wizard will have no trouble kiting and avoiding the boss, and their attacks rarely are that significant. Yes, guardians can tank adds, but only a few. Unfortunately AoE threat generation is too weak and the cleric will end up tanking most of the adds no matter what. For this reason guardians can only make life more difficult in most of the harder fights. It's better to have an extra cleric to kite adds and keep the party alive or an extra wizard to cc and kill adds. The guardian serves virtually no purpose because clerics can just kite adds better and bring way more utility to the party. Rogues are valuable because they offer the highest damage on boss. Typically our rogue sits on the boss for the entire fight, occasionally coming off when adds get out of hand because add spawns are typically tied to boss HP so if the rogue pushes too fast adds will become out of control. The rogue crit buff is also great for the entire party.
Dungeon Difficulty
Lair of the Pirate King: 4/10: This is the CT of tier 2, it will never be quite as easy or fast, but its the easiest Tier 2 and will be pretty simple to farm after you're comfortable with it. Don't go in here expecting a cake walk though. It will likely be quite difficult your first time.
The Frozen Heart: 6/10: Doable but difficult. The last boss is virtually impossible unless you have your cleric kite the adds and have the entire party focus boss, periodically killers archers as they spawn, but never killing adds. The HP and regen on the adds makes it way too difficult to deal with, but you can kill the last boss pretty easily with kiting.
Temple of the Spider: 8/10: The first two bosses are pretty easy, but the last boss is very difficult. He spawns 8 adds that hit extremely hard and are unkiteable and their respawn rate is extremely fast. Killing the adds is almost not an option, but kiting isn't either... Really hard fight. My group hasn't been able to complete this yet.
Spellplague Caverns: 8/10: Again the last boss is exceptionally difficult. Basically the same as it is on normal but with more adds that hit way harder. I think its definitely doable, especially with a heavy knockback composition, but its hard. Also the trash between bosses in this dungeon is absolutely brutal... Felt like a 3 hour run to get to the last boss. My group hasn't killed the last boss here yet.
Caverns of Karrundax: Haven't tried it yet but I assume its hard.
Dread Vault: 9/10: My group actually only got to the second boss here, the only dungeon where we couldn't kill the second boss. It's probably not that difficult but we didn't give it many attempts. I imagine the last boss will be extremely difficult though.
Castle Never 9/10: This dungeon has 4 bosses. The first 2 are pretty straight forward. They're difficult, but doable. The third is very difficult and we had to just kite the adds until the boss was dead. The final boss is exceptionally difficult, I imagine the most difficult in the game. The adds he spawn are VERY hard to deal with and I think it will require both a really solid group comp and exceptional gear to be able to do this fight. He's a dragon so on top of his adds he has a **** ton of HP. We didn't even get more than 30 seconds into the fight so I have no idea if he has multiple phases or even harder add waves at low HP, but I don't see anyone completing this fight for at least 3 or 4 weeks.
What companion should I use? For most classes cat seems to be the way to go. For those who don't know, the cat is buyable from the AD vendor for 980,000... expensive, but worth it. The cat gives you all of the stats he has. He has 2 offense rune slots, a defense rune slot, a neck slot, a waist slot, and a ring slot. Fully geared and with optimal runes he can probably give 2-3k in total stat points. He's good for basically all classes. The iouen stone is similar but has 3 offense slots, and the iouen stone has different base stats. The cat gives cit and recovery regardless of gear and the stone gives different stats that I can't remember off the top of my head. The stone is probably better for some dps classes. For wizards I like the cat due to crit and recovery, but for a rogue or GWF the stone may be better. For clerics and gaurdians the cat is most likely better. Almost all other companions are entirely useless. Galeb Dhur is the only other companion that might be worth using, but only in selective situations. All of the others can't possibly compare to the cat/stone.
What's the best way to gear up in tier 2's? Dungeon delves... Now that you're guaranteed a piece of gear in each chest it is EXTREMELY important that you run dungeon delve groups whenever you have the opportunity. As far as I'm aware you can get any piece of tier gear from the chest, which is obviously extremely valuable. You can get pieces that may only drop off the end boss of dungeons like the dread vaults which are INSANELY hard. I highly recommend that you get a solid group going to run the lair of the pirate king during every dungeon delve that you can. You will need as much tier 2 gear as you can get to be able to attempt the end bosses of the harder dungeons. High end enchantments and weapon/armor stones will also be important. You will also need an epic shirt and pants for your class WITH a gem slot. Lastly, for serious attempts on difficult bosses you should spent a celestial coin on one of the awesome elixirs you can get that persist through death.
Long *** ready... hope some of it is helpful though. If anyone has any questions feel free to post them and I'll try to answer.
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Then go to GW2 and let us enjoy having the trinity back...
Its not ideal but id rather have this screwy system for now.
If we didn't have this then people would just QQ because they waited 1hr because no tanks... It would be even WORSE for DPS then also. Im in a large guild with 500 unique active players (twitch guild) and 200+ of them are TRs...
Your comment made me think about something. When I was offered my companion quest, I ended up taking the Mat at Arms on my CW. I thought maybe later on I'd need somebody that could tank stuff while I was soloing, but since I've not actually needed that support yet he's in my bank. What if the system not only sees YOUR class but also what companions you have that you could conceivably use as part of the dungeon run?
In other words, I just zoned in to find a GWF, another CW & 2 TRs BUT the GWF & one TR have the cleric companion, while the other CW has the Man at Arms (and let's say for s****s & giggles that I also have mine uh... learned?) The other TR has his trusty wolf/panther because why not. Anyway... conceivably you now have a party with 2 tanks, 2 healers & a boatload of dps so those dungeon mobs are TOAST!
Then again, it could just be either borked or operating on D&D rules, which is that the Trinity isn't a consideration when adventuring.
Actually... no it's not required in this game. Does it make things easier? Sure. But not required.
I've done several dungeons now where there was no tank (or a severely under leveled one that gets face-rolled if they even attempt to tank the boss), and finished it no problem without a tank (or even the "holy trinity" of a well rounded group).
No tank? Change strategy. NWO isn't like other MMO's where you're lost without the trinity.
[edit]And oh yeah.. DND required tankiness characters if the DM was worth his weight in salt.
Because of this many have just gone into straight dps builds.
Also other disinfo from othre short comings of player scare them away from trying. Such as healers always taking agro... Of coarse they do! lol... Every time a fresh set of adds joins the fight (unless the tanks aoe taunt is up; or he happens to be on in range or even the area of the new group) they will B line for the Cleric. Classic Dungeon running 101 derp. It was easily solvable by the dps grabbing them... OR they could stop Hot effects from being picked up by mobs dropping in fresh with a threat value of "0" dont trigger. So then the cleric doesn't get any help and starts running around like hes on fire spamming just to keep himself alive; only making it worse... (So many clerics have resorted to Off tankish Def builds.) But what you guna do at that point lol. For the tank who is already engaging a boss and adds to turn off from the group to grab another set of mobs will mean he will lose all his marks once he takes dmg from off side of shield or in the back. Players could also help just bring to tank... One mark will pull a mob off anything (it is a taunt by itself; but can be feated to gen threat as its up.) But if a dps is continuing to hit after mark is applied then it can peel back off the tank... Tbh other then the entry elites people are only setting themselves up for bad habits as the content expands. Not needing a tank doesn't mean playing sloppy when you get one. And because of that...Charging in first dps, spammy healers, etc even more stop trying to tank. No diff then people who give up pre 35-40 on Gwf because everyone talks about how bad they suck... Irony is 2 Gwf builds that can meet a TR in avg encounters. Even the Guardian Dps build can top the entire chart. Stop listening to baddies and forge on...
-saying "I've done 2 where no tank is needed"
Not quite, as the issue stands that with threat in it's current state, it's easier to bring CW's to control adds or TR's to burn them down quicker than it is to have them feasibly tanked.
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That just sounds like bad design. I've only done a few dungeons but in my dungeon experience the aggro was everywhere. Do taunts have no effect?
There are no true taunts, as far as I know. There are attacks that cause "High amounts of threat" but not generally attacks that actually place you at the top of the threat table and make you the immediate target. If guardian fighters do have one it simply has too long of a cooldown or they don't have the abilities to follow it up and continue to stay the desired target.
It's safe to say that threat will need to be addressed so that there is amount of certainty in tanking. You should be able to use an ability and say "There, I just used my Daily Power AoE taunt and now I know that I have control of these monsters."
As it stands you think "Well, I'll just use these abilities and hopefully things attack me instead of my cleric."
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Every reason i hate tanking but still I enjoy tanking when i get a group that knows to let me gather the mobs.
LoL Brings back memories of 8k dead heros in WoW:WotLK... but yes a lot of the time its dps trying to rush ahead of the tank that has the lowest movement speed in the game.
Hmmmm. Either I quit playing my cleric way too early (and never got the hang of healing remotely better than potions) or this is more like a duality game [tank - striker]. My cleric was pretty pointless at healing. Oddly enough, DDO is the other way: healing helps a lot, but tanking is only done as a last resort when things get too tough. Since I've seen a total of two group dungeons below level 25, I think I'll let the devs figure out the grouping system before I'm brave enough to group.