I wouldn't mind hiding the shirt because the chest armor covers everything that needs to be covered, at least for cleric and guardian. Pants though, leg armor doesn't seem to cover that so should always be visable imo.
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sephereMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Erm, I'm a female in real life,
but I like tasteful revealing armor,
I don't like the ones that show any part of the butt, but I don't mind some on the legs, top of the breast, or the stomach.
Also, I certainly wouldn't mind if the men's armor had similar revealing aspects,
it's just that I just like my characters to look nice, and I happen to think tastefully revealing armors look nice.
It has nothing to do with sexism for me.
Not exactly a perfect reply here, but wow, you have no idea how many times i've seen a cool suit type look for the male characters and thought "I want that SO bad on my female character!" but can't. That's something i loved about City of Heroes, so many looks were at least close enough.
Alrighty then... done with this topic. When I can go to a beach IRL without having gauze pads and g-strings foisted upon me, I will become less willing to complain about a torn-off-shirt-sleeve-looking bra not hang out from under the armor I don't really have much choice but to wear. It's the only model I have seen so far. The torn-off-shirt-sleeve-wrap-around-bra hanging out is horrid looking. The shirt isn't much of an improvement but at least it can be dyed. It looks like dirty long underwear with a V collar that was ripped out and not scissored out and hemmed. I don't want my character in gauze pads and dental floss. I want the clothing I get in the game to look decent. You can have your power fancy all you want but I want to have a look that doesn't say "I crawled out of a donation box behind the castle and am wearing someone's torn up clothes." There's no fantasy about it. There's no sexism about it. There's no power trip about it. There's "it's ugly and stupid looking" about it. Remove the cutout from the armor and it becomes a non-issue. Make the torn-off-sleeve-bra smaller and it's a non-issue. I'm sorry if that comes off as micro-aggression to you but it looks plain stupid to me. A rogue in a formal ball gown doesn't quite fit and what mine has on is more than Xena had on or any hundred superheroines. There's over the top in both directions and this thread now has both!
Still disenchanted! No T6 Science for KDF and word is there never will be one!
Erm, I'm a female in real life,
but I like tasteful revealing armor,
I don't like the ones that show any part of the butt, but I don't mind some on the legs, top of the breast, or the stomach.
Also, I certainly wouldn't mind if the men's armor had similar revealing aspects,
it's just that I just like my characters to look nice, and I happen to think tastefully revealing armors look nice.
It has nothing to do with sexism for me.
And that's fine. It's fine for you to express your own sense of style or sexuality with your characters. I'm against rampant objectification, which is what is shown to happen pretty constantly.
Why is this such a big deal? It's a video game! Who cares if there are slightly revealing clothes?
Because it's not just a video game. It's a constant stream of microaggression and sexism. This one instance is just a videogame. But take a look at the world around you, at the other games and movies and books and music and jokes and internet culture that -all- does this.
This game does not exist in a vacuum.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
For the record, Batty, I'd be fine with them closing up the armor-holes and giving female characters the exact same armor styles as males. It would, in fact, be my preferred course of action.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Seriously. All this armor seems to be designed to give a bit of eye candy (not quite bikini armor, but some skin is showing), yet it's all hidden by ugly chain mail. We can hide helms and capes, why not shirts/pants?
The second tailored shirt.... The Sturdy Cloth Shirt is invisible when worn.
It's unfair at -best- to present female characters as sexual objects without also presenting male characters as sexual objects. And a bare chested muscle man is a -power- fantasy, not a sexual one. If things were equal, with both male and female characters being presented equally as power and sexual fantasies this wouldn't be an issue.
I'm assuming that this is that part you mean, correct me if I'm wrong.
I hear the thing about muscle men a lot and I've never understood it, because men happen to view the cliche greased up Conan style barbarian type as some kinda power fantasy that means women can't find it sexy?
If yes, then what would count as the woman's sexual fantasy then? If no, then why is it okay for women to have "eye candy" but not men?
Regardless this is probably the 2nd most modest fantasy MMO I've ever seen (the first being Lord of the Rings Online which goes for a bit more realistic look with the armors, no bikini plate or giant shoulder pads of doom) being able to make the shirts invisible wouldn't do much is the way of making the female toons "sexier" anyhow, the shirts as is are weird mid-drift barring ones as is so most of the skin that would be revealed by making them hidden would be just the arms and shoulders for the most part.
Women -can- find it sexy, sure. But most don't. Female sexual fantasies often aren't as visual as male sexual fantasies. And when they are they tend to revolve around guys closer to Michael Phelps or Johnny Depp than Hulk Hogan or Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Besides which: The male character is being designed as a power fantasy with sexual fantasy being a secondary consideration. While the female character (with armor-holes) is being designed as a sexual fantasy with power fantasy as a secondary consideration.
And yes. Being able to make stuff invisible would only make the female characters sexier, not sexy to begin with. But that's just further catering to guys without commensurate offerings to women. Don't you think that's unfair?
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
Um, 12 year old kids aren't the only ones who like to see some skin.
I agree with him, the shirt and pants are more social clothes than anything. We should have the option to hide them. They are ugly.
Just drag them out of the inventory slots and destroy them. Pretty sure you can stand to lose the 1 def they give. That was the 1st thing I did when I made my 1st char.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There have been thousands of forum posts about sexist armor designs in MMORPGs (largely because hey, it's a big issue), and within those thousands of posts, there have been thousands of replies of the "don't be a prude, don't censor my game, take your overly PC attitudes elsewhere" variety, and they remain the same strawman attack they've always been.
No, there is not a group of stuffy old grannies that wants to take your pixel <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> away and force you to enjoy wholesome entertainment. The issue is and always has been equality. Sexed-up costumes on women should be sexed-up costumes on men. Sensible armor on men should be sensible armor on women. That's why players (men and women) get irked.
When a good portion of items are designed to empower males and objectify females, that is sexism, and when the original poster is talking about "eye candy", it's quite pertinent to the discussion whether you like it or not.
Sorry, but minus the starting gear which is supposed to look like rags because you just got shipwrecked- where's this near nude armour exactly?
And options wise, if you can't stand seeing an ankle- you don't have to turn the pants graphic off. Ultimately, this would be far less an issue if there was some decent choice for shirts/pants.
Most of the outfits arent' revealing with or without shirts anyway, and while pants might work in some cases- where are shorts and skirts? Some chest pieces even come with their own dress/skirt part, which makes the pants look awful/redundant in comparison.
Ultimately, I can relate with the problem that many outfits don't look the same per gender- but that's a different issue than pants/shirts being hidden. Having the ability- that is becoming common in other games, like GW2 and SWTOR- to have high level gear that can be tailored to what you want should have been in this game day one.
But, complaining about shirts/pants not being hidden won't change scanty female outfits on certain classes- and it doesn't sound like your real issue is that these outfits exist, but that you don't have a good repertoire of decent looking outfits (which I'd disagree with, my level 30 rogue right now is in a good looking outfit that you can't see any skin below her neck in). And, as a female gamer, I wouldn't mind seeing some more parts missing from some male outfits either.
But you don't need to take your sexism issues and shove it down every game's throat because the idea that guys look at girls and find them attractive when they dress certain ways offends you. Comparitively, outside of the rags you start with, this game has some of the most conservative looking clothing I've seen in an mmo- and yet still that's not enough for some people, really?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Women -can- find it sexy, sure. But most don't. Female sexual fantasies often aren't as visual as male sexual fantasies. And when they are they tend to revolve around guys closer to Michael Phelps or Johnny Depp than Hulk Hogan or Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Besides which: The male character is being designed as a power fantasy with sexual fantasy being a secondary consideration. While the female character (with armor-holes) is being designed as a sexual fantasy with power fantasy as a secondary consideration.
And yes. Being able to make stuff invisible would only make the female characters sexier, not sexy to begin with. But that's just further catering to guys without commensurate offerings to women. Don't you think that's unfair?
-Rachel-
Thanks for speaking for all of us. Basically what you're saying is- all guys like one thing, partially naked girls, so we shouldn't give it to them. But we women will never be happy since we like something different.
What are you asking for here, other than to put limits? Is there something specific you want guys to be dressed up as?
Is it equal, Doctor Death? Then no. It's really not enough.
As Malcolm-X once said "You don't stick a knife in a man's back nine inches and then pull it out six inches and say you're making progress"
Equality is all I really want. Male and Female characters being presented as equally powerful and equally sexual. And if male characters are not presented as sexual at all, neither should female ones.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Except you've simplified men's desires, while saying that we don't desire looks, meaning good luck figuring out how to do that PW!
How precisely do you want the men to be presented as sexual? The chestless courtesan gear for the guys isn't the equal? Not saying it wouldn't be a bad thing for some sexualized male outfits- but do you even know what you want for that?
Perhaps there are many sexy female outfits, and few male ones- but on the flip side, not all female outfits are overly sexy and show lots of skin- giving you the OPTION of dressing how you want. Now, if you want more sexy male outfits, more power to you; but what are you even looking for? You've made it clear you consider 'men like partially nude girls' but taken the time to say that women don't consider partially naked guys hot- Depp I think you mentioned? So, we're looking for hipster outfits then for males hmm?
I wouldn't mind some leather bondage gear to outfit a male elf in- shall we ask for that?
Frankly I find the idea that women can have their visual fantasies and it's perfectly OK but with men it's always treated as some gender equality destroying travesty to be even more unfair, sexism goes both ways.
that said, I do kinda find some of the female armor here to be, well weird, mostly the rouge and wizard ones. They look like they have random holes slashed into the waist or something so it dosn't even look like a purposely "revealing" outfit so much as a "bargain bin" one like they got it second hand and it's already worn out particularly compared to the male armor for those classes which look more "normal" so I kinda agree with you there and for the record I do wish the default shirt for women wasn't that weird midriff baring one, for one thing it would help make the early armor for wizards and rouges look less...torn I guess I'd call the look if the stomach wasn't showing through the holes
Honestly I just hope we get more clothing options as a whole right now everyone looks very same-y
You wouldn't be able to sexualize the male outfits without first sexualizing the male models. And that would, mostly, mean making them look like male models. Like the Johnny Depp or Benedict Cumberbatch or Tom Hiddleston. As I said before, the female characters were designed to be sexual fantasies, first, with power fantasy coming second. While male models were designed as power fantasies.
Maybe add a bulge below the beltline and give them some tight pants. Show off their abs and hairless swimmer's bodies. And give them more attractive features with larger eyes and no permanent scowl.
The model would have to change, first. Then the clothes after.
For my part? I'd prefer to just use the male armor styles on my female characters.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Frankly I find the idea that women can have their visual fantasies and it's perfectly OK but with men it's always treated as some gender equality destroying travesty to be even more unfair, sexism goes both ways.
that said, I do kinda find some of the female armor here to be, well weird, mostly the rouge and wizard ones. They look like they have random holes slashed into the waist or something so it dosn't even look like a purposely "revealing" outfit so much as a "bargain bin" one like they got it second hand and it's already worn out particularly compared to the male armor for those classes which look more "normal" so I kinda agree with you there and for the record I do wish the default shirt for women wasn't that weird midriff baring one, for one thing it would help make the early armor for wizards and rouges look less...torn I guess I'd call the look if the stomach wasn't showing through the holes
Honestly I just hope we get more clothing options as a whole right now everyone looks very same-y
Almost everything pre-25 looks the exact same. But, I don't think you can judge poor early game items for the full game- my 30 rogue has much nicer now.
I also don't see anything sexy about my CW's rags either, as you said- it looks like she put her clothes in a blender- revealing, but not really sexy, but, not a guy so dunno, maybe guys like that clothes-blender look. (I'll have to give it a try).
But people getting all 'oh this is sexist!' nonsense here is just ludicrous, especially when our culture has people walking around in far worse, everywhere, everyday. Is a game really supposed to be the paragon of virtue for 'some' people's prudish values? I think not.
A person is able to express their sexuality as they see fit.
A character has no sexuality or will except that which is applied to it by it's creator.
That's why a woman wearing a microskirt and a tube-top is not offensive from the position of sexism while a comic book or videogame character is. The character has no ability to choose how they dress or present themselves. A real woman does.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You wouldn't be able to sexualize the male outfits without first sexualizing the male models. And that would, mostly, mean making them look like male models. Like the Johnny Depp or Benedict Cumberbatch or Tom Hiddleston. As I said before, the female characters were designed to be sexual fantasies, first, with power fantasy coming second. While male models were designed as power fantasies.
The model would have to change, first. Then the clothes after.
For my part? I'd prefer to just use the male armor styles on my female characters.
-Rachel-
Fair enough on having equal armour styles.
But... hairless bodies? Even the dwarves, the DWARVES are hairless- I mean, maybe there's like, stubble I can't tell from the graphics if that's a hundred scars or the weakest chest hair possible- but that's definitely not a gross amount of body hair unless you like your men as hairless as a baby.
The models are limited- yes, ok, so they're muscular, strong jawed men- and we want, apparently, hipster softies that look more effeminate than masculine. I don't think they're going to make those changes- they made one body type for each side- one- and while you can scale it a bit wider, it only makes sense that they'd go for models that will be the most appealing for the majority of the playerbase.
If they had made multiple models and still had nothing but sexy women and buff men- perhaps then I could see the complaint. But with a single model- that choice isn't there, and I'm doubting they'd make more models considering the costs involved.
But- I don't follow the assertion that the females in this game can't look 'powerful'.
They can look powerful. I'm just stating that it's a secondary consideration to their design. In the Closed Beta weekends even the heavy armor wearing fighters had low-decolletage chainmail shirts with big holes in the sides right around the waistline for... no apparent reason aside from "It's Sexier". Made it hard for me to play a big half-orcish great weapon fighter without looking like she's begging to be stabbed.
And I know they won't make more models. Hence why my preferred option is reducing the sexual fantasy in the game to nil (or damned close to it) and let everyone just have power fantasies, rather than women having power fantasies catered to (as a secondary consideration) while men have their power and sexual fantasies catered to.
I want things to be fair, I really do.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
I definably agree on having more models for the toons. I tend to make female mage types in these kinda games because it kidna bugs me that my supposedly low strength scholarly wizard has six pack abs and the lantern jaw of justice.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
How do you know the male models are specifically meant to be not sexy to women? And, what if some women do find a masculine looking male to be attractive, as opposed to effeminate ones?
Your entire theory revolves around the idea that the female model is sexy, but not powerful, while the male one is powerful, but not sexy- but I think you'd find many of us wouldn't find a female model meant to be not sexy to be any better- which means you seem to want everyone to look bad since you think women in this game look good, while males look unattractive.
How is that helpful?
Thing is- I'm fairly certain most women playing the game want a good looking female avatar, so be taking that away simply to spite men so they can't find us attractive in game- you'll <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off women just as much. I'm not sure about you, but my... power fantasy I guess, since we seem to be using that word, of a female character is going to be good looking, capable, intelligent and independent. And I honestly doubt simply armour would do a thing about male sexual fantasies- sorry, but you put a girl in spandex, a bikini, or full leather armour or plate mail and they'll still be drooling- it's a lost battle in anything less than robes (which I'd take issue in as they are highly impractical in battle).
I find the fact that Rachel seems to be having more arguments with other women than other men kind of revealing. Rachel (or whoever you are) - you seem to be the most hardcore of hardcore feminists, and that's fine. But take your fight outside the game. Allowing people to play a game as they wish is not going to somehow set back the female cause 10 years. But people arguing against perceived slights where nothing exists does. All you do is create people who fiercely oppose your point of view instead of being nonchalant or supporting it. The armor in this game is fine, for the most part. It does not match the shirt/pants in the vast majority of circumstances. It appears to be designed around those pieces of gear not being worn, and the small amount of stats they have support that theory. However, they already allow you to play your character completely naked and get all of the benefit of your gear.
Why don't you campaign about a game that allows you to slay dragons with nothing but a bra and sword on? Simply allowing us to hide specific pieces of armor is not something you should be fighting. The fact that someone has taken so much time to fight for 'equality' in a game like this is absurd; you bring a level of realism to this world that is not expected, or wanted.
Want realism? take testosterone pills. There will never be true equality, because men and women are different. Our brains are wired differently, what each sex prefers in terms of attractive aspects is different, and what each of us are physically capable of is different. Until men and women cease to exist and we become some strange asexual race in the far flung future, there will always, ALWAYS be significant differences between us, and forcing people to legislate to try to pretend that those differences does not exist does nothing but make you look ignorant.
Anyways, looks like I at least got a discussion going, maybe I'll pop by tomorrow to see if it actually went anywhere.
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akikisaragiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
There's one robe, I think it's called Blighted which my CW has which overall looks fairly cool but the way the front is designed being practically wide open, the shirt simply detracts from the coolness since I've yet to see anything good to replace the shirt.
You're reading a lot of assumptions into my statements, Doctor. I don't want the female characters to be unattractive or the male models to be made more attractive. I just want them to be presented as power fantasies equally, and sexual fantasies equally.
And it's not a theory. It's pretty well categorically proven that media of nearly every stripe is catered to men. Specifically straight white men. That's why there's Women's Networks, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Networks, and Black Entertainment Television. Because pretty much all other entertainment caters to the straight white guys. Before anyone jumps on that: I'm not blaming the straight white men on these boards at all, nor do I think it is in any way their fault.
These are the "Default" Models for male and female human great weapon fighters.
The male has high muscular definition, powerful arms and legs, banging six pack abs, and well defined shoulders. The female character's muscles are nowhere near as defined or shown as nearly so powerful. Look at their stances. The male is forward, looking directly at the camera, feet shoulder width apart. The female character is looking off to the left, shoulders back, and feet closer together. The guy is wearing shorts so tight we can tell he's a Ken doll even though they reach down to his thigh while the female character is wearing a panty-wrap that shows off her legs from bottom to top and part of her groin. These characters are not being presented as power fantasies. The male is a power fantasy. The female is a sexual fantasy. One looks powerful and strong, the other is not nearly so. Both of these images use the default human model at the race selection screen with the toned slider and no changes other than to hide the armor.
Looking "Good" or "Bad" is entirely subjective. I want my warriors to look like warriors, not like some guy's sexual fantasy with their armor filled with holes to show off their cleavage or their waistline. I want male warriors to be the same. Instead we get two completely different representations.
And yes. Most women who play the game will want to make characters they find attractive or at least pleasing to their aesthetic tastes. And that's fine by me. I'm fine with female players making female characters which allow them to vicariously live out their personal fantasies, whether those fantasies are power fantasies, social fantasies, or sexual fantasies. Look through this thread, however, and most of what you'll find isn't women talking about being sexy. It's guys talking about how female characters should be sexy because... well... they like their women sexy or want to stare at a female backside if they're going to look at someone's back while gaming.
I also touched on the issue of reinforcing social issues but let's set that aside for a moment. Do you agree that the above image depicts male and female characters in radically different ways with regards to power versus sexuality?
If so, why is it acceptable to show the same character function (Human Great Weapon Fighter) in two ways so radically differently which doesn't amount to sexism?
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
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ladydwarfMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
Sorry, but minus the starting gear which is supposed to look like rags because you just got shipwrecked- where's this near nude armour exactly?
And options wise, if you can't stand seeing an ankle- you don't have to turn the pants graphic off. Ultimately, this would be far less an issue if there was some decent choice for shirts/pants.
Most of the outfits arent' revealing with or without shirts anyway, and while pants might work in some cases- where are shorts and skirts? Some chest pieces even come with their own dress/skirt part, which makes the pants look awful/redundant in comparison.
Ultimately, I can relate with the problem that many outfits don't look the same per gender- but that's a different issue than pants/shirts being hidden. Having the ability- that is becoming common in other games, like GW2 and SWTOR- to have high level gear that can be tailored to what you want should have been in this game day one.
But, complaining about shirts/pants not being hidden won't change scanty female outfits on certain classes- and it doesn't sound like your real issue is that these outfits exist, but that you don't have a good repertoire of decent looking outfits (which I'd disagree with, my level 30 rogue right now is in a good looking outfit that you can't see any skin below her neck in). And, as a female gamer, I wouldn't mind seeing some more parts missing from some male outfits either.
But you don't need to take your sexism issues and shove it down every game's throat because the idea that guys look at girls and find them attractive when they dress certain ways offends you. Comparitively, outside of the rags you start with, this game has some of the most conservative looking clothing I've seen in an mmo- and yet still that's not enough for some people, really?
Just because this game isn't Tera with stiletto heels and fetish wear doesn't mean it's sort of progressive MMO with equality in armor design. Female armor designs are still obviously sexed up compared to the male versions and it's really easy to see.
Between alpha testing and live, I've leveled three classes to near 60 and done quite a lot of testing with appearances. The vast majority of female armor has plunging necklines and gaping holes that would show skin if not for the shirt beneath -- and in some cases, as on my rogue, the shirt doesn't make a difference since it's midriff-baring. Currently, were I not using the peasant gear whilst leveling, she would have about 66% of her belly hanging out, thanks to her current tunic. While this amuses me since she's a classic dwarf and could care less what anyone thinks of her gut, she's not daft enough to go off fighting monsters without adequate protection against being eviscerated by the bad guys.
Then there's the plate armor, much of which has the "cleavage window" that is only covered up by the shirt beneath -- and in beta, we didn't even have that, since all chainmail shirts were low-cut, thus forcing every 1-30 female GF to rock the Lursa/B'Etor aesthetic. A number of folks complained on the forums about how silly it was to be all armored up save for leaving your heart exposed for stabbing, and thankfully Cryptic changed it.
Show me where these features exist on the male armor. Go ahead, take an inventory, make comparative screenshots of every variation, I'll wait. Save for the orc style stuff, I don't see it anywhere. It's the same issue that's persisted since the earliest graphical MMORPGs -- male armor makes sense, but the very same items are designed to show more skin on females. The only class for whom it works semi-logically is the lightly armored wizard -- they're not wearing that cloth to block the hits -- and even then, it's still a matter of objectification.
There's immense giggle-worthy irony when folks respond to this topic as if it's being "shoved down their throats". Surely the games themselves haven't shoved the disparity of armor designs down our throats for years, right?
Sometimes I want that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> armor set that I see on the dudes. Sometimes I get annoyed at what I get instead. Sometimes I like to comment on it in relevant threads. But, you know ... tough <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, shut up, stop being so PC and show your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because (insert apples and oranges comparison) is worse, and besides, it's a genre standard, so GTFO and go to church.
I find the fact that Rachel seems to be having more arguments with other women than other men kind of revealing. Rachel (or whoever you are) - you seem to be the most hardcore of hardcore feminists, and that's fine. But take your fight outside the game. Allowing people to play a game as they wish is not going to somehow set back the female cause 10 years. But people arguing against perceived slights where nothing exists does. All you do is create people who fiercely oppose your point of view instead of being nonchalant or supporting it. The armor in this game is fine, for the most part. It does not match the shirt/pants in the vast majority of circumstances. It appears to be designed around those pieces of gear not being worn, and the small amount of stats they have support that theory. However, they already allow you to play your character completely naked and get all of the benefit of your gear.
No. It won't set the female cause back 10 years. But letting sexism stand unopposed won't move the female cause forward any, either. And I'm far from the most hardcore of feminists. And these "Perceived slights" are real. Look at the image I just linked. Power Fantasy versus Sexual Fantasy.
As for the "Fighting Women More Than Men" it's because the guys aren't responding. I'll answer their questions just as readily. Not everyone truly understands sexism. I've got a fairly unique perspective on it, though, and am more than willing to discuss, debate, and educate others with the insight I've gained and the various materials I've read.
Why don't you campaign about a game that allows you to slay dragons with nothing but a bra and sword on? Simply allowing us to hide specific pieces of armor is not something you should be fighting. The fact that someone has taken so much time to fight for 'equality' in a game like this is absurd; you bring a level of realism to this world that is not expected, or wanted.
Why? Why must there be a hierarchy of "It must be this sexist to point out?" You know, the universe is going to end in heat death. By comparison trying to hide shirts is completely irrelevant. You should be fighting against entropy, not trying to get this changed in a game.
Want realism? take testosterone pills. There will never be true equality, because men and women are different. Our brains are wired differently, what each sex prefers in terms of attractive aspects is different, and what each of us are physically capable of is different. Until men and women cease to exist and we become some strange asexual race in the far flung future, there will always, ALWAYS be significant differences between us, and forcing people to legislate to try to pretend that those differences does not exist does nothing but make you look ignorant.
Yes. There will always be differences between men and women. Ergo women should be treated like sexual objects in games? That doesn't make sense, Someoneod. By that token why not make all male characters in the game female sexual fantasies (by taking up a full poll of what women like in a man and averaging it out) rather than having male characters be a male power fantasy and then having the female characters as the power fantasy character? The idea that it has to be "This" way is confusing. Why can't it be reversed? If it can't be reversed why can't a middle ground be formed where both sexes are treated as power fantasies equally?
Anyways, looks like I at least got a discussion going, maybe I'll pop by tomorrow to see if it actually went anywhere.
I'm hoping a few people read some of my points and walk away thinking about them, or take an extra moment to look at the dichotomy around them once in a while. It's worked before.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
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sephereMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Sexual fantasies, for a game character....what?
I certainly don't think of my female character as a sexual fantasy...
that would be weird, very weird
I think of her as an extended version of me,
and since I'm female irl, I usually make female characters, because I think of them as a version of me...
not some weird sexual fantasy.
Just because this game isn't Tera with stiletto heels and fetish wear doesn't mean it's sort of progressive MMO with equality in armor design. Female armor designs are still obviously sexed up compared to the male versions and it's really easy to see.
Between alpha testing and live, I've leveled three classes to near 60 and done quite a lot of testing with appearances. The vast majority of female armor has plunging necklines and gaping holes that would show skin if not for the shirt beneath -- and in some cases, as on my rogue, the shirt doesn't make a difference since it's midriff-baring. Currently, were I not using the peasant gear whilst leveling, she would have about 66% of her belly hanging out, thanks to her current tunic. While this amuses me since she's a classic dwarf and could care less what anyone thinks of her gut, she's not daft enough to go off fighting monsters without adequate protection against being eviscerated by the bad guys.
Then there's the plate armor, much of which has the "cleavage window" that is only covered up by the shirt beneath -- and in beta, we didn't even have that, since all chainmail shirts were low-cut, thus forcing every 1-30 female GF to rock the Lursa/B'Etor aesthetic. A number of folks complained on the forums about how silly it was to be all armored up save for leaving your heart exposed for stabbing, and thankfully Cryptic changed it.
Show me where these features exist on the male armor. Go ahead, take an inventory, make comparative screenshots of every variation, I'll wait. Save for the orc style stuff, I don't see it anywhere. It's the same issue that's persisted since the earliest graphical MMORPGs -- male armor makes sense, but the very same items are designed to show more skin on females. The only class for whom it works semi-logically is the lightly armored wizard -- they're not wearing that cloth to block the hits -- and even then, it's still a matter of objectification.
There's immense giggle-worthy irony when folks respond to this topic as if it's being "shoved down their throats". Surely the games themselves haven't shoved the disparity of armor designs down our throats for years, right?
Sometimes I want that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> armor set that I see on the dudes. Sometimes I get annoyed at what I get instead. Sometimes I like to comment on it in relevant threads. But, you know ... tough <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, shut up, stop being so PC and show your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because (insert apples and oranges comparison) is worse, and besides, it's a genre standard, so GTFO and go to church.
Two thousandth verse, same as the first.
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
Comments
but I like tasteful revealing armor,
I don't like the ones that show any part of the butt, but I don't mind some on the legs, top of the breast, or the stomach.
Also, I certainly wouldn't mind if the men's armor had similar revealing aspects,
it's just that I just like my characters to look nice, and I happen to think tastefully revealing armors look nice.
It has nothing to do with sexism for me.
Not exactly a perfect reply here, but wow, you have no idea how many times i've seen a cool suit type look for the male characters and thought "I want that SO bad on my female character!" but can't. That's something i loved about City of Heroes, so many looks were at least close enough.
And that's fine. It's fine for you to express your own sense of style or sexuality with your characters. I'm against rampant objectification, which is what is shown to happen pretty constantly.
Because it's not just a video game. It's a constant stream of microaggression and sexism. This one instance is just a videogame. But take a look at the world around you, at the other games and movies and books and music and jokes and internet culture that -all- does this.
This game does not exist in a vacuum.
-Rachel-
-Rachel-
The second tailored shirt.... The Sturdy Cloth Shirt is invisible when worn.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'm assuming that this is that part you mean, correct me if I'm wrong.
I hear the thing about muscle men a lot and I've never understood it, because men happen to view the cliche greased up Conan style barbarian type as some kinda power fantasy that means women can't find it sexy?
If yes, then what would count as the woman's sexual fantasy then? If no, then why is it okay for women to have "eye candy" but not men?
Regardless this is probably the 2nd most modest fantasy MMO I've ever seen (the first being Lord of the Rings Online which goes for a bit more realistic look with the armors, no bikini plate or giant shoulder pads of doom) being able to make the shirts invisible wouldn't do much is the way of making the female toons "sexier" anyhow, the shirts as is are weird mid-drift barring ones as is so most of the skin that would be revealed by making them hidden would be just the arms and shoulders for the most part.
Besides which: The male character is being designed as a power fantasy with sexual fantasy being a secondary consideration. While the female character (with armor-holes) is being designed as a sexual fantasy with power fantasy as a secondary consideration.
And yes. Being able to make stuff invisible would only make the female characters sexier, not sexy to begin with. But that's just further catering to guys without commensurate offerings to women. Don't you think that's unfair?
-Rachel-
Just drag them out of the inventory slots and destroy them. Pretty sure you can stand to lose the 1 def they give. That was the 1st thing I did when I made my 1st char.
Sorry, but minus the starting gear which is supposed to look like rags because you just got shipwrecked- where's this near nude armour exactly?
And options wise, if you can't stand seeing an ankle- you don't have to turn the pants graphic off. Ultimately, this would be far less an issue if there was some decent choice for shirts/pants.
Most of the outfits arent' revealing with or without shirts anyway, and while pants might work in some cases- where are shorts and skirts? Some chest pieces even come with their own dress/skirt part, which makes the pants look awful/redundant in comparison.
Ultimately, I can relate with the problem that many outfits don't look the same per gender- but that's a different issue than pants/shirts being hidden. Having the ability- that is becoming common in other games, like GW2 and SWTOR- to have high level gear that can be tailored to what you want should have been in this game day one.
But, complaining about shirts/pants not being hidden won't change scanty female outfits on certain classes- and it doesn't sound like your real issue is that these outfits exist, but that you don't have a good repertoire of decent looking outfits (which I'd disagree with, my level 30 rogue right now is in a good looking outfit that you can't see any skin below her neck in). And, as a female gamer, I wouldn't mind seeing some more parts missing from some male outfits either.
But you don't need to take your sexism issues and shove it down every game's throat because the idea that guys look at girls and find them attractive when they dress certain ways offends you. Comparitively, outside of the rags you start with, this game has some of the most conservative looking clothing I've seen in an mmo- and yet still that's not enough for some people, really?
Thanks for speaking for all of us. Basically what you're saying is- all guys like one thing, partially naked girls, so we shouldn't give it to them. But we women will never be happy since we like something different.
What are you asking for here, other than to put limits? Is there something specific you want guys to be dressed up as?
As Malcolm-X once said "You don't stick a knife in a man's back nine inches and then pull it out six inches and say you're making progress"
Equality is all I really want. Male and Female characters being presented as equally powerful and equally sexual. And if male characters are not presented as sexual at all, neither should female ones.
-Rachel-
How precisely do you want the men to be presented as sexual? The chestless courtesan gear for the guys isn't the equal? Not saying it wouldn't be a bad thing for some sexualized male outfits- but do you even know what you want for that?
Perhaps there are many sexy female outfits, and few male ones- but on the flip side, not all female outfits are overly sexy and show lots of skin- giving you the OPTION of dressing how you want. Now, if you want more sexy male outfits, more power to you; but what are you even looking for? You've made it clear you consider 'men like partially nude girls' but taken the time to say that women don't consider partially naked guys hot- Depp I think you mentioned? So, we're looking for hipster outfits then for males hmm?
I wouldn't mind some leather bondage gear to outfit a male elf in- shall we ask for that?
that said, I do kinda find some of the female armor here to be, well weird, mostly the rouge and wizard ones. They look like they have random holes slashed into the waist or something so it dosn't even look like a purposely "revealing" outfit so much as a "bargain bin" one like they got it second hand and it's already worn out particularly compared to the male armor for those classes which look more "normal" so I kinda agree with you there and for the record I do wish the default shirt for women wasn't that weird midriff baring one, for one thing it would help make the early armor for wizards and rouges look less...torn I guess I'd call the look if the stomach wasn't showing through the holes
Honestly I just hope we get more clothing options as a whole right now everyone looks very same-y
Maybe add a bulge below the beltline and give them some tight pants. Show off their abs and hairless swimmer's bodies. And give them more attractive features with larger eyes and no permanent scowl.
The model would have to change, first. Then the clothes after.
For my part? I'd prefer to just use the male armor styles on my female characters.
-Rachel-
Almost everything pre-25 looks the exact same. But, I don't think you can judge poor early game items for the full game- my 30 rogue has much nicer now.
I also don't see anything sexy about my CW's rags either, as you said- it looks like she put her clothes in a blender- revealing, but not really sexy, but, not a guy so dunno, maybe guys like that clothes-blender look. (I'll have to give it a try).
But people getting all 'oh this is sexist!' nonsense here is just ludicrous, especially when our culture has people walking around in far worse, everywhere, everyday. Is a game really supposed to be the paragon of virtue for 'some' people's prudish values? I think not.
A character has no sexuality or will except that which is applied to it by it's creator.
That's why a woman wearing a microskirt and a tube-top is not offensive from the position of sexism while a comic book or videogame character is. The character has no ability to choose how they dress or present themselves. A real woman does.
-Rachel-
Fair enough on having equal armour styles.
But... hairless bodies? Even the dwarves, the DWARVES are hairless- I mean, maybe there's like, stubble I can't tell from the graphics if that's a hundred scars or the weakest chest hair possible- but that's definitely not a gross amount of body hair unless you like your men as hairless as a baby.
The models are limited- yes, ok, so they're muscular, strong jawed men- and we want, apparently, hipster softies that look more effeminate than masculine. I don't think they're going to make those changes- they made one body type for each side- one- and while you can scale it a bit wider, it only makes sense that they'd go for models that will be the most appealing for the majority of the playerbase.
If they had made multiple models and still had nothing but sexy women and buff men- perhaps then I could see the complaint. But with a single model- that choice isn't there, and I'm doubting they'd make more models considering the costs involved.
But- I don't follow the assertion that the females in this game can't look 'powerful'.
And I know they won't make more models. Hence why my preferred option is reducing the sexual fantasy in the game to nil (or damned close to it) and let everyone just have power fantasies, rather than women having power fantasies catered to (as a secondary consideration) while men have their power and sexual fantasies catered to.
I want things to be fair, I really do.
-Rachel-
Your entire theory revolves around the idea that the female model is sexy, but not powerful, while the male one is powerful, but not sexy- but I think you'd find many of us wouldn't find a female model meant to be not sexy to be any better- which means you seem to want everyone to look bad since you think women in this game look good, while males look unattractive.
How is that helpful?
Thing is- I'm fairly certain most women playing the game want a good looking female avatar, so be taking that away simply to spite men so they can't find us attractive in game- you'll <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off women just as much. I'm not sure about you, but my... power fantasy I guess, since we seem to be using that word, of a female character is going to be good looking, capable, intelligent and independent. And I honestly doubt simply armour would do a thing about male sexual fantasies- sorry, but you put a girl in spandex, a bikini, or full leather armour or plate mail and they'll still be drooling- it's a lost battle in anything less than robes (which I'd take issue in as they are highly impractical in battle).
Why don't you campaign about a game that allows you to slay dragons with nothing but a bra and sword on? Simply allowing us to hide specific pieces of armor is not something you should be fighting. The fact that someone has taken so much time to fight for 'equality' in a game like this is absurd; you bring a level of realism to this world that is not expected, or wanted.
Want realism? take testosterone pills. There will never be true equality, because men and women are different. Our brains are wired differently, what each sex prefers in terms of attractive aspects is different, and what each of us are physically capable of is different. Until men and women cease to exist and we become some strange asexual race in the far flung future, there will always, ALWAYS be significant differences between us, and forcing people to legislate to try to pretend that those differences does not exist does nothing but make you look ignorant.
Anyways, looks like I at least got a discussion going, maybe I'll pop by tomorrow to see if it actually went anywhere.
And it's not a theory. It's pretty well categorically proven that media of nearly every stripe is catered to men. Specifically straight white men. That's why there's Women's Networks, <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> Networks, and Black Entertainment Television. Because pretty much all other entertainment caters to the straight white guys. Before anyone jumps on that: I'm not blaming the straight white men on these boards at all, nor do I think it is in any way their fault.
These are the "Default" Models for male and female human great weapon fighters.
The male has high muscular definition, powerful arms and legs, banging six pack abs, and well defined shoulders. The female character's muscles are nowhere near as defined or shown as nearly so powerful. Look at their stances. The male is forward, looking directly at the camera, feet shoulder width apart. The female character is looking off to the left, shoulders back, and feet closer together. The guy is wearing shorts so tight we can tell he's a Ken doll even though they reach down to his thigh while the female character is wearing a panty-wrap that shows off her legs from bottom to top and part of her groin. These characters are not being presented as power fantasies. The male is a power fantasy. The female is a sexual fantasy. One looks powerful and strong, the other is not nearly so. Both of these images use the default human model at the race selection screen with the toned slider and no changes other than to hide the armor.
Looking "Good" or "Bad" is entirely subjective. I want my warriors to look like warriors, not like some guy's sexual fantasy with their armor filled with holes to show off their cleavage or their waistline. I want male warriors to be the same. Instead we get two completely different representations.
And yes. Most women who play the game will want to make characters they find attractive or at least pleasing to their aesthetic tastes. And that's fine by me. I'm fine with female players making female characters which allow them to vicariously live out their personal fantasies, whether those fantasies are power fantasies, social fantasies, or sexual fantasies. Look through this thread, however, and most of what you'll find isn't women talking about being sexy. It's guys talking about how female characters should be sexy because... well... they like their women sexy or want to stare at a female backside if they're going to look at someone's back while gaming.
I also touched on the issue of reinforcing social issues but let's set that aside for a moment. Do you agree that the above image depicts male and female characters in radically different ways with regards to power versus sexuality?
If so, why is it acceptable to show the same character function (Human Great Weapon Fighter) in two ways so radically differently which doesn't amount to sexism?
-Rachel-
Just because this game isn't Tera with stiletto heels and fetish wear doesn't mean it's sort of progressive MMO with equality in armor design. Female armor designs are still obviously sexed up compared to the male versions and it's really easy to see.
Between alpha testing and live, I've leveled three classes to near 60 and done quite a lot of testing with appearances. The vast majority of female armor has plunging necklines and gaping holes that would show skin if not for the shirt beneath -- and in some cases, as on my rogue, the shirt doesn't make a difference since it's midriff-baring. Currently, were I not using the peasant gear whilst leveling, she would have about 66% of her belly hanging out, thanks to her current tunic. While this amuses me since she's a classic dwarf and could care less what anyone thinks of her gut, she's not daft enough to go off fighting monsters without adequate protection against being eviscerated by the bad guys.
Then there's the plate armor, much of which has the "cleavage window" that is only covered up by the shirt beneath -- and in beta, we didn't even have that, since all chainmail shirts were low-cut, thus forcing every 1-30 female GF to rock the Lursa/B'Etor aesthetic. A number of folks complained on the forums about how silly it was to be all armored up save for leaving your heart exposed for stabbing, and thankfully Cryptic changed it.
Show me where these features exist on the male armor. Go ahead, take an inventory, make comparative screenshots of every variation, I'll wait. Save for the orc style stuff, I don't see it anywhere. It's the same issue that's persisted since the earliest graphical MMORPGs -- male armor makes sense, but the very same items are designed to show more skin on females. The only class for whom it works semi-logically is the lightly armored wizard -- they're not wearing that cloth to block the hits -- and even then, it's still a matter of objectification.
There's immense giggle-worthy irony when folks respond to this topic as if it's being "shoved down their throats". Surely the games themselves haven't shoved the disparity of armor designs down our throats for years, right?
Sometimes I want that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> armor set that I see on the dudes. Sometimes I get annoyed at what I get instead. Sometimes I like to comment on it in relevant threads. But, you know ... tough <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, shut up, stop being so PC and show your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because (insert apples and oranges comparison) is worse, and besides, it's a genre standard, so GTFO and go to church.
Two thousandth verse, same as the first.
No. It won't set the female cause back 10 years. But letting sexism stand unopposed won't move the female cause forward any, either. And I'm far from the most hardcore of feminists. And these "Perceived slights" are real. Look at the image I just linked. Power Fantasy versus Sexual Fantasy.
As for the "Fighting Women More Than Men" it's because the guys aren't responding. I'll answer their questions just as readily. Not everyone truly understands sexism. I've got a fairly unique perspective on it, though, and am more than willing to discuss, debate, and educate others with the insight I've gained and the various materials I've read.
Why? Why must there be a hierarchy of "It must be this sexist to point out?" You know, the universe is going to end in heat death. By comparison trying to hide shirts is completely irrelevant. You should be fighting against entropy, not trying to get this changed in a game.
Yes. There will always be differences between men and women. Ergo women should be treated like sexual objects in games? That doesn't make sense, Someoneod. By that token why not make all male characters in the game female sexual fantasies (by taking up a full poll of what women like in a man and averaging it out) rather than having male characters be a male power fantasy and then having the female characters as the power fantasy character? The idea that it has to be "This" way is confusing. Why can't it be reversed? If it can't be reversed why can't a middle ground be formed where both sexes are treated as power fantasies equally?
I'm hoping a few people read some of my points and walk away thinking about them, or take an extra moment to look at the dichotomy around them once in a while. It's worked before.
-Rachel-
I certainly don't think of my female character as a sexual fantasy...
that would be weird, very weird
I think of her as an extended version of me,
and since I'm female irl, I usually make female characters, because I think of them as a version of me...
not some weird sexual fantasy.