I roll need on any item usable for my Class. That its unidentified and possibly worse than what I'm wearing is irrelevant. It was cryptic's choice to put that system in.
I roll greed on anything that isn't a class item, and not directly usable by someone on my team. For example a GW item when we dont have one in the group.
I usually pass on any item that is obviously usable by someone else in the group, provided they've been a considerate groupmate who isn't rolling need on items they cant use. Some people are too nice to roll need even for their class items. That gives em a chance to get some goods too. I also pass on any blue drop that I already have. So someone else of that class can get it.
Luckily to date, most people I've grouped with have been equally considerate on rolls.
Seems a lot of drama could be avoided if they just prevented you from rolling 'Need' on an item that wasn't usable by your class.
(I only roll "Need" on items for my class)
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theschwatrzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
This indicates a lack decency by definition need is exactly that, greed is a 'roll and a hope'. It tells me we still think we are "entitled" to do whatever we want. A disease of the mind....
Yeah, I tried abiding by the rules on a dungeon run the other day. I needed stuff I needed. Greeded stuff I could use. Passed on everything I couldn't.
I walked away with absolutely NOTHING.
That Need/Greed System needs to die a painful, fiery death. Preferably sooner, rather than later.
"Over the course of my many years I have learned one thing: I don't know anything, I only think I do. And I'm not even sure about that." -- Rasgard the Wise
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milodacatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
Personally I just watch and see how people are rolling. If everyone is rolling greed then I roll greed. If everyone is rolling need then I do the same too. There's really no easy answer to this it's just a matter of common courtesy.
Yeah, this is what I do. I watch the first few rolls and then maybe spot check some as we go along...
My default is usually roll Greed on items my class cannot use or that are definitely not an upgrade, and Need for items my class can use (if unidentified) or if it actually is an upgrade.
I havent had a problem yet in this game, but in previous games, if someone continues rolling Need on things their character cant use and wont stop after being asked, I'll simply roll Need on everything too, or leave, depending on my mood. I think it is pretty poor form though. Taking an item for Cash is not "need", it's "greed".... that's why there is a preference hierarchy there in the first place. People who can directly use an item get priority over simply taking an item no one else can use for cash or an alt. If no one in the group can directly use the item, then it moves to being fully up for grabs. *shrug*
That's just an excuse. We are all equally anonymous, but some people are nice considerate individuals while others are wastes of oxygen. It's not the anonymity.
"Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way." -Gozer, Cryptic PvP Dev
This is one reason why I play with real life friends or solo. Very few games get the loot part of a game right, games that do fix this problem by giving individual loot. That takes all the guess work and argument out of it. That a new MMO would come out without a system like that just shows how out of touch the devs are.
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kutarvMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If it's usable and unidentified then everyone who can use should need except the guy who can't and he passes or presses greed which is the has the same function in that case. This way everyone has the same chance on the green item. When you get a blue drop there is usually only one class who can use it, he/she needs and everyone else greeds or passes. Simple really.
Greed seems to run rampant in this game, so I've noticed that being a problem that often fits the free-to-play model. Makes me miss subscriptions honestly.
An easy fix for this (though not a perfect one) is to make the Need roll only available to classes that can actually use the item. Otherwise you only get the need option and then tack on Greed rolls only for the other stuff such as crafting that may turn up just to establish a theme.
I have no use for greedy people. I don't get worked up over them but if one rubs me the wrong way I simply add them to my list to avoid in the future or outright reject should they ever apply to our guild.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Here's a crazy idea: make it so you cannot roll Need on things your class can't use.
Boom. Your system works now.
Except that 90% of the stuff you think you need actually ends up being sold, because you can't know if you really "need" it until after you have it. Which means to be truly fair and equitable, everyone needs to claim need. I am amazed at how many seemingly intelligent people miss this simple fact. Who's really acting entitled here?
edit: If we could know what an item was, I'd be in agreement with many here, but we can't. Maybe instead of ID scrolls, we should be required to buy equipment unlocks.
Here's a crazy idea: make it so you cannot roll Need on things your class can't use.
Boom. Your system works now.
Nah, just make Need make the item BoP while Greed makes it BoE, that should stop a lot of the Need rolling on non-class epics.
In related news, I was doing a pug Dungeon earlier today, and when a GWF purple dropped from a boss, everyone but the GWF rolled Greed and the GWF rolled Need. Everyone rolled Need on the Shard that dropped, but that's to be expected since those are quite usable by everyone. Then again, I was spamming Pass/Greed on every green because I didn't want to waste scrolls/inventory space on <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that'd just be vendored off anyway. Some people play nice with others.
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arti78Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
it does get annoying when someone needs for items they can' t use. called someone out on it during a tower run once, he booted me from the dungeon, I warned the other players, as apparently he was needing every item that dropped the entire time.
I always ask now if we're nbg, or if everyone is gonna just need everything, most groups have been good.
Personally if I am group leader, and someone is needing for gear that their class can't use, I give them 3 warnings, then the boot. Works well for skimishes and dungeons.
So those that are complaining about the need/greeds system, have you put some thought into the fact that once the game matures a bit, like every other game, healers will be a minority?
Wouldn't it be a good idea to let people that are playing healers have a fair chance at acquiring gear for their other toons? Wouldn't that provide an incentive for people to play healers, especially once they're healers are already geared?
Everyone should be rolling need on everything, it's all BoE. It all has an AD value, meaning you can trade anything you acquire for what you do need. Are the people complaining about this scared of using the AH or trading with other players or something?
If bind on pickup items are added to the game, I can see teh need/greed system becoming an issue, but otherwise it's fine people, just need to stop hitting greed thinking its' a good idea, ever. If everyone needs on everything, and you aren't scared of the AH or trading, you will gear your toon just as fast as compared to if people were to all conform to the rolling dice code of honor.
Personally, if my class can use I need it. If I can't use and just would end up selling it I greed it. If my inventory is full and don't want to deal with it, I pass on it.
People want to get all dainty and sugar-coat everything but at the end of the day, people need to accept that they will lose the roll and someone else will get the loot.
Personally, the only gripe I feel that is valid is when someone who can need it loses to a class who can't use it.
It's not ignorance. Quite the contrary, as the system is clearly designed to promote "need" rolls, and social censure is not, has never been, and probably never will be a sufficient deterrence.
Is it rude? Maybe, but rudeness is in the eyes of the beholder. Assuming that all rollable items are not bind-on-pickup, and assuming everyone accepts the idea of rolling "need" on everything, then the differences can be sorted out on the auction house. You may not get the item right now, but with a little patience, you stand a really good chance of getting it eventually (and probably sooner than if you just re-ran the same instances over and over). If everyone comes to grips with this way of thinking, it's no longer rude, it's business as usual.
That said, I'm all for an alternative system to the usual need/greed setup, like individualized loot rolls (e.g. GW2 or Cryptic's own City of Heroes) or marks/materials drops or any one of a number of systems that have been proposed. It's high time for Need/Greed to die IMO; there's nothing good about it from a player's point of view. But trying to get everyone to buy into a system of etiquette that is clearly in direct contradiction with the game mechanics is pretty much doomed to failure.
Pretty much uniformly agree with this, and to expound on it, the need/greed system discourages grouping in any situation that doesn't demand it, because why compete for loot if you can avoid doing so? So it really is a bad system that promotes antisocial behaviour and really benefits no one.
erebus2075Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
need should only be Available if your class can use it.
need should result in BOP with a 10min clock to give it to some one else from the group (thereby allowing 2 of the same class to trade it if one already had something better from unidentified items and therefore want to give it to the second guy needing it).
this is the only method which cannot be abused and exploited.
to every one who thinks its wonderfull as it is and that its "good/fun" to ninja stuff and hear some one rage their heart out:
"Please may you get aids and die a HORRIBLE, PAINFULL and SLOW death!, since you are the worst kinda person and you deserve nothing better. having that kinda attitude towards other people who have done nothing against you proof how much of a horrible person you are and you should get the worst punishement imaginable!..
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zilak22Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I agree with the poster!
Just because the option to hit the need button is there you should not press it because you can lol, that is stupid.
I remember in my old wow i was asked all time "are we needing or greeding" meaning what button we press on "all times".
come'on the need/greed buttons are not that hard to learn how to use.
... -.-
They just need to lock the need button so only people specified for the gear can need on it if they like, like need before greed in wow.
This system atm is equal to wow's group loot = everyone can need on everything even if its not for their characters, and many will abuse that.
Personally when I see someone need abusing i will need on everything, at least then I have a chance to give it to the right person.
.. I'm just that nice.
best tip in this game:
Either run with guild mates or as they say: "can't beat them, join them" and become a (something) you too. sigh...
Except that 90% of the stuff you think you need actually ends up being sold, because you can't know if you really "need" it until after you have it. Which means to be truly fair and equitable, everyone needs to claim need. I am amazed at how many seemingly intelligent people miss this simple fact. Who's really acting entitled here?
edit: If we could know what an item was, I'd be in agreement with many here, but we can't. Maybe instead of ID scrolls, we should be required to buy equipment unlocks.
That has nothing to do with what the quote suggested. Preventing someone from rolling need on an item that is not for their class. In that case they absolutely can't use it, regardless of what the item identifies as. The system does know you can't use the item at the time of rolling. It even tells you this. But doesnt prevent the need roll.
Everyone should be rolling need on everything, it's all BoE. It all has an AD value, meaning you can trade anything you acquire for what you do need. Are the people complaining about this scared of using the AH or trading with other players or something?
.
This is exactly the mentality that has ****ed up mmo`s and made them what they are today. I don`t know about you but when I play an mmo, I like to go out and get my own gear from dungeons, not go to the auction and buy everything. What`s that point of playing a game if I have to use an ah to equip myself because I constantly lose rolls to people needing on the **** I need because they just wanna sell it.
Ohh and btw if you bring your cleric to a dungeon run and expect to be able to roll need for gear for one of your alts, expect to get kicked. If you want gear for the alt, run the alt through the dungeon or play with friends who won`t mind handing you whatever you want.
People won't change. NGP rolls are stupid. Although it seems mind boggling that anyone would have implemented a system like this in 2013, this is what beta tests are for.
I really love the gameplay of the game, in general...so I just found this aspect extremely shocking and backwards. It obviously has to go.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That has nothing to do with what the quote suggested. Preventing someone from rolling need on an item that is not for their class. In that case they absolutely can't use it, regardless of what the item identifies as. The system does know you can't use the item at the time of rolling. It even tells you this. But doesnt prevent the need roll.
My point is that the people the system thinks can use it, won't in most cases, yet they feel entitled to rolling, even though they'll just sell it. The problem is that unless you can look at an item, and 100% say "yes this is an upgrade for me", you don't actually need it. You're just hoping you can use it. So say you and I run a dungeon, 15 things drop that are "usable" to me, and 3 drop that you can "use". Of those 15, none end up being upgrades, so I sell them, and none of yours are upgrades either so you sell them. I just made 5 times as much as you based on what? The system was stacked in my favor if you play the need/greed game. You and I were both there, do we not both deserve at least the chance at the same amount of upgrades or marketable items? The system is broken, and it favors the "need" people, while <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over the "greed" people. In other words the nice guys get bent over.
Like I said, I am all about a fair system, but the current one is not fair, and making items only able to be looted by those for whom they are usable doesn't fix it, because you can't honestly know if you will use an item as an upgrade. Take away the need to ID items, and make them Bind on Loot, and the problem will be fixed, or make everything an automatic random 100, (which is about as fair as possible).
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
/10 chars OMG this forum server. DBL post
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serenasummersMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited May 2013
since everything is bind on equip instead of bind on pickup, EVERYONE will need it just to make profit to afford their own equips.. just dont queue for dungeons get a guild with 5 or 6 pro people and do runs with them that way you guys can divide loot equally
Probably already been suggested, but deciding the "Need" and "Greed" rules before starting or just at the beginning of a dungeon can resolve this problem sometimes. Of course, this only functions if your groupmates are able to keep a promise.
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archanjo17041985Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
they need to change this. they are making <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and ninjas all arround neverwinter...
i7 3770k @ 4.0//HD 7950 WF3//16 GB ram Corsair @ 1600//Corsair 120 GB SSD x 2//Hyper Evo 212
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kubera87Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
It honestly is somewhat reminiscent of my actually DnD games. Wizards identifying loot and then rolling bluff to say it's worthless , or Rogue's using sleight of hand. One difference though is that they had to RP it and they had to Roll for it. Rolling need on everything when the rest of your group rolls greed doesn't make you clever, it makes you a tool. That being said if you want to make a difference roll need against him/her and give it to the corresponding group member. It's up to you to choose your alignment.
I roll greed on stuff that isn't an upgrade for my character, until I see that the party is rolling Need on everything. Just because the internet is full of antisocial jerks, is no reason to automatically become one too.
You totally contradicted yourself there.
"Your story may not last forever; but it will exist forever"
I'll say something if I see some clown doing this and if they don't stop I'll either kick them or leave the group myself. So rare is the time that a green you find is bettr than what you have there's no need to roll need unless it's a blue, or a crafting item.
Midget soothsayer robs bank. Small medium at large.
Comments
I roll greed on anything that isn't a class item, and not directly usable by someone on my team. For example a GW item when we dont have one in the group.
I usually pass on any item that is obviously usable by someone else in the group, provided they've been a considerate groupmate who isn't rolling need on items they cant use. Some people are too nice to roll need even for their class items. That gives em a chance to get some goods too. I also pass on any blue drop that I already have. So someone else of that class can get it.
Luckily to date, most people I've grouped with have been equally considerate on rolls.
(I only roll "Need" on items for my class)
I walked away with absolutely NOTHING.
That Need/Greed System needs to die a painful, fiery death. Preferably sooner, rather than later.
Yeah, this is what I do. I watch the first few rolls and then maybe spot check some as we go along...
My default is usually roll Greed on items my class cannot use or that are definitely not an upgrade, and Need for items my class can use (if unidentified) or if it actually is an upgrade.
I havent had a problem yet in this game, but in previous games, if someone continues rolling Need on things their character cant use and wont stop after being asked, I'll simply roll Need on everything too, or leave, depending on my mood. I think it is pretty poor form though. Taking an item for Cash is not "need", it's "greed".... that's why there is a preference hierarchy there in the first place. People who can directly use an item get priority over simply taking an item no one else can use for cash or an alt. If no one in the group can directly use the item, then it moves to being fully up for grabs. *shrug*
That's just an excuse. We are all equally anonymous, but some people are nice considerate individuals while others are wastes of oxygen. It's not the anonymity.
Boom. Your system works now.
Greed seems to run rampant in this game, so I've noticed that being a problem that often fits the free-to-play model. Makes me miss subscriptions honestly.
An easy fix for this (though not a perfect one) is to make the Need roll only available to classes that can actually use the item. Otherwise you only get the need option and then tack on Greed rolls only for the other stuff such as crafting that may turn up just to establish a theme.
I have no use for greedy people. I don't get worked up over them but if one rubs me the wrong way I simply add them to my list to avoid in the future or outright reject should they ever apply to our guild.
Except that 90% of the stuff you think you need actually ends up being sold, because you can't know if you really "need" it until after you have it. Which means to be truly fair and equitable, everyone needs to claim need. I am amazed at how many seemingly intelligent people miss this simple fact. Who's really acting entitled here?
edit: If we could know what an item was, I'd be in agreement with many here, but we can't. Maybe instead of ID scrolls, we should be required to buy equipment unlocks.
In related news, I was doing a pug Dungeon earlier today, and when a GWF purple dropped from a boss, everyone but the GWF rolled Greed and the GWF rolled Need. Everyone rolled Need on the Shard that dropped, but that's to be expected since those are quite usable by everyone. Then again, I was spamming Pass/Greed on every green because I didn't want to waste scrolls/inventory space on <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that'd just be vendored off anyway. Some people play nice with others.
I always ask now if we're nbg, or if everyone is gonna just need everything, most groups have been good.
Personally if I am group leader, and someone is needing for gear that their class can't use, I give them 3 warnings, then the boot. Works well for skimishes and dungeons.
Wouldn't it be a good idea to let people that are playing healers have a fair chance at acquiring gear for their other toons? Wouldn't that provide an incentive for people to play healers, especially once they're healers are already geared?
Everyone should be rolling need on everything, it's all BoE. It all has an AD value, meaning you can trade anything you acquire for what you do need. Are the people complaining about this scared of using the AH or trading with other players or something?
If bind on pickup items are added to the game, I can see teh need/greed system becoming an issue, but otherwise it's fine people, just need to stop hitting greed thinking its' a good idea, ever. If everyone needs on everything, and you aren't scared of the AH or trading, you will gear your toon just as fast as compared to if people were to all conform to the rolling dice code of honor.
People want to get all dainty and sugar-coat everything but at the end of the day, people need to accept that they will lose the roll and someone else will get the loot.
Personally, the only gripe I feel that is valid is when someone who can need it loses to a class who can't use it.
Pretty much uniformly agree with this, and to expound on it, the need/greed system discourages grouping in any situation that doesn't demand it, because why compete for loot if you can avoid doing so? So it really is a bad system that promotes antisocial behaviour and really benefits no one.
need should result in BOP with a 10min clock to give it to some one else from the group (thereby allowing 2 of the same class to trade it if one already had something better from unidentified items and therefore want to give it to the second guy needing it).
this is the only method which cannot be abused and exploited.
to every one who thinks its wonderfull as it is and that its "good/fun" to ninja stuff and hear some one rage their heart out:
"Please may you get aids and die a HORRIBLE, PAINFULL and SLOW death!, since you are the worst kinda person and you deserve nothing better. having that kinda attitude towards other people who have done nothing against you proof how much of a horrible person you are and you should get the worst punishement imaginable!..
Just because the option to hit the need button is there you should not press it because you can lol, that is stupid.
I remember in my old wow i was asked all time "are we needing or greeding" meaning what button we press on "all times".
come'on the need/greed buttons are not that hard to learn how to use.
... -.-
They just need to lock the need button so only people specified for the gear can need on it if they like, like need before greed in wow.
This system atm is equal to wow's group loot = everyone can need on everything even if its not for their characters, and many will abuse that.
Personally when I see someone need abusing i will need on everything, at least then I have a chance to give it to the right person.
.. I'm just that nice.
best tip in this game:
Either run with guild mates or as they say: "can't beat them, join them" and become a (something) you too. sigh...
I blame the game dev's on this one....
That has nothing to do with what the quote suggested. Preventing someone from rolling need on an item that is not for their class. In that case they absolutely can't use it, regardless of what the item identifies as. The system does know you can't use the item at the time of rolling. It even tells you this. But doesnt prevent the need roll.
This is exactly the mentality that has ****ed up mmo`s and made them what they are today. I don`t know about you but when I play an mmo, I like to go out and get my own gear from dungeons, not go to the auction and buy everything. What`s that point of playing a game if I have to use an ah to equip myself because I constantly lose rolls to people needing on the **** I need because they just wanna sell it.
Ohh and btw if you bring your cleric to a dungeon run and expect to be able to roll need for gear for one of your alts, expect to get kicked. If you want gear for the alt, run the alt through the dungeon or play with friends who won`t mind handing you whatever you want.
I really love the gameplay of the game, in general...so I just found this aspect extremely shocking and backwards. It obviously has to go.
My point is that the people the system thinks can use it, won't in most cases, yet they feel entitled to rolling, even though they'll just sell it. The problem is that unless you can look at an item, and 100% say "yes this is an upgrade for me", you don't actually need it. You're just hoping you can use it. So say you and I run a dungeon, 15 things drop that are "usable" to me, and 3 drop that you can "use". Of those 15, none end up being upgrades, so I sell them, and none of yours are upgrades either so you sell them. I just made 5 times as much as you based on what? The system was stacked in my favor if you play the need/greed game. You and I were both there, do we not both deserve at least the chance at the same amount of upgrades or marketable items? The system is broken, and it favors the "need" people, while <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over the "greed" people. In other words the nice guys get bent over.
Like I said, I am all about a fair system, but the current one is not fair, and making items only able to be looted by those for whom they are usable doesn't fix it, because you can't honestly know if you will use an item as an upgrade. Take away the need to ID items, and make them Bind on Loot, and the problem will be fixed, or make everything an automatic random 100, (which is about as fair as possible).
Then I noticed that even though I was following an ingrained etiquette, no one else was. So I stopped caring too. Now I just need on everything.
You totally contradicted yourself there.