At current state of game original post doesn't make sense. All items that drop are unidentified so it would mean everyone rolls greed or passes which is exactly same as everyone rolling NEED or passing. If item is unidentified and you class can use it it is completely justified to roll NEED. You cant know wether its upgrade or not but neither can anyone else.
The only exclusion is class specific stuff that I personally just pass as bag space is limited enough even without collecting extra junk. But with original posters instructions every class would roll GREED on unidentified class specific item and the class that can actually use it wouldn't get better odds rolling it.
The other exclusion are runes but everyone will NEED roll them anyways unless they want to save bag space and skip them,
My personal opnion is just remove GREED button, make class specific stuff priority roll for correct classes and guilds and more organized parties can decide who gets stuff no matter how you roll it.
in this game, they just need to remove the greed option for less whine, you either need an item or not, and if you dont, you do not select greed, as the bag space is limited. simple, only options are need pass for this game...
The system is just a bad system. If I am playing with friends/ people that I can generally trust, there aren't any problems. We can all need what we need and greed the rest.
But a PUG? I don't know you; You don't know me. Even if someone acts like they are going to greed or pass all the stuff that they can not use, the possibility exists that they will choose need at any time.
With little effective punishment available, it's easier just to go need on everything, from everyone.
I have no problems with someone getting "my" loot as long as we all know what the rules are up front. If someone gets this and someone else gets that, then there can be trading after the fact. If someone ends up with all the best stuff then good on them.
I would much rather need be greyed out for classes that can not equip the item in question, but it isn't.
We have what we have, and to me universal need cuts out as much grief as possible.
hope someone does that to u when they get the item u want. cleric items are harder to find than any other item. kids dont need to play this if they act so imature about it. grow the hell up and quit being a ***** and taking items u dont need.
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serenasummersMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited May 2013
they could make it like TerA and make it so that only the job class of that particular item can roll need / greed on it, while the others dont get an option to roll on it
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ishonbuMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
I still hit greed when it's not for my class, but there's always someone that's going to press need on something that you can use. I'll wait to see if anyone else needed an item I can use, then choose accordingly.
The greed and stupidity of the average player prevents this type of system from ever working. Hopefully they come up with something better before the game is out of beta.
- Remove Greed option completely, it serves no purpose other than just being another "pass" option. (Sure, if 5 people click greed, then you still have a chance to get the loot, but come on people, seriously. This never happens.)
- Leave only 2 options availabe: "Need" and "Pass".
- Make it so that only if the specific item is useable by your class you can select Need, and if you cant use it due to different class, then the game automatically picks Pass for you, and only the people who can use it can select Need.
Example: You are a Trickster Rogue. Your team mates are: 1 rogue, 1 cleric, 1 Weapon fighter, and 1 Defender. Your party finds an item that is useable by Trickster Rogue. The cleric, weapon fighter and defender "Pass" on the item without having the ability to select any options, they dont have a choice at all. Then you and the other rogue are both offered the choice to either Need or Pass on the item, which is pretty fair.
There, everyone is happy, the system is pretty straight forward and simple, and people cant grab your rare loot only to sell it at the auction house for thousands of AD.
Greed = Thinking you're entitled to an item just because you're the only one in the party that can use it.
The need/greed system only works with friends, and perhaps guild mates. Other than that, chances are other people helped get the item that just dropped. Why shouldn't they roll and use it on an alt?...or roll and then vendor/auction it to buy other gear or items? If some exotic purple drops, everyone that helped get the item should have a shot at it, regardless of class. Besides, you can't even tell what an item is before looting it...unless I'm missing something? That item you think should be yours, may not even be an upgrade and then you'll just vendor it.
Still, I roll greed on things I can't equip on my main and need on things I can equip...that's just my style. I neither expect, or care, what others do...almost more loot where that one I just missed out came from.
- Remove Greed option completely, it serves no purpose other than just being another "pass" option. (Sure, if 5 people click greed, then you still have a chance to get the loot, but come on people, seriously. This never happens.)
- Leave only 2 options availabe: "Need" and "Pass".
- Make it so that only if the specific item is useable by your class you can select Need, and if you cant use it due to different class, then the game automatically picks Pass for you, and only the people who can use it can select Need.
Example: You are a Trickster Rogue. Your team mates are: 1 rogue, 1 cleric, 1 Weapon fighter, and 1 Defender. Your party finds an item that is useable by Trickster Rogue. The cleric, weapon fighter and defender "Pass" on the item without having the ability to select any options, they dont have a choice at all. Then you and the other rogue are both offered the choice to either Need or Pass on the item, which is pretty fair.
There, everyone is happy, the system is pretty straight forward and simple, and people cant grab your rare loot only to sell it at the auction house for thousands of AD.
- Remove Greed option completely, it serves no purpose other than just being another "pass" option.
Then you and the other rogue are both offered the choice to either Need or Pass on the item, which is pretty fair.
Stupid...
I think you mean greed, not pass.
Pass = not take it.
Greed = I can take it if no one needs it and then if i win it i can save it or sell it and make profit.
if everyone passes on it its an item that could been sold or something or for guild members, aka its still useful even if the one right spec'd class did not need it.
if it's something I can use I always select need cos there's the chance it could be something good. if it's something I can't equip though i'll select greed.
A viable solution is to have treasure drop for the player and only they can see it...it already happens with minor items.....
As for major items.....
Ultimately this issue only exists in one forum......PUGS.........The easy answer is do not pug. This form of loot HAMSTER forces usto find friends and foster guild raiding parties.
Today we fight the GAULS......monstrous and HAIRY beyond reason.
Stupid...
I think you mean greed, not pass.
Pass = not take it.
Greed = I can take it if no one needs it and then if i win it i can save it or sell it and make profit.
if everyone passes on it its an item that could been sold or something or for guild members, aka its still useful even if the one right spec'd class did not need it.
I meant what I said. Just remove the greed option altogether.
But I guess if all people pass on it then the loot is lost?
If thats true, then remove the pass option and leave only Need and Greed.
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baaddareMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
<rant on> I don't know if there are just a lot of rude people, a lot of ignorant people, or a mix of both. So, here is a clarification:
GREED: this is what you select when the character class you are playing cannot equip the gear up for grabs because it's not for your class, or when the item is unidentified.. you can't "need" something when you don't even know what it is or know if it's better or worse than what you already have yet. If you are just going to sell the item, or hold it for an alt (who can run his own dungeons instead of taking from those who are actually running the dungeon and need the item, especially at this stage of the game when they don't yet have money to buy much), that is "greed".
Now, if everyone wants to select need on every single item, I and everyone else will have to do that too. Chances are when something comes up you really want/need, you'll be less likely to get it because instead of passing on the item as civil people normally would, I and everyone else in the party will be having to select need in order to sell stuff to buy the gear needed that you took by selecting need on an item you can't even equip. So, would you prefer I act like a civilized human being when something you really need is up for grabs that I can't use, or do we need to really resort to mob mentality in a game? Thanks.</rant off>
Unfortunately, the gaming society is not what it once was. Way back when people would find they were social outcasts unable to get a group if they rolled need on items they obviously did not need.
"Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads. SWORDS FOR EVERYONE!!!"
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combatclown81Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited May 2013
i was in a party where i was the only rogue. two rogue weapons dropped and I didn't get either of them because two of the other 4 players were jerks who needed every single thing. IMO this system seriously needs changing.
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merrybelleMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited May 2013
Boycott doing dungeons. If no one runs them, then they'll change the rolls so people will play them. Just don't do it, and also don't buy epics on auction house from the greedy who abuse the roll system. I'm not really interested in dungeons. I'm doing them as I level, but I'm not going to waste countless hours running dungeons if I can't get good loot. Getting good loot is the entire point of doing dungeons. Since I have read all about the craptastic loot system in dungeons from all of you, I'm just going to confine my gameplay to the foundry at endgame. I don't care if I have epic gear or not, because I only need it for more dungeon running. Dungeons aren't even very well done here, the bosses are only difficult due to the adds. That's cheesy and boring if you are going to be doing the same thing over and again. I prefer questing, and I will happily devour all the content that the foundry has to offer. That's really the only life this game will have for me beyond 60 anyway. Dungeons just take too long to accomplish to have your loot swiped out from beneath your nose, so why waste your time being aggravated?
Imho, there should be two options, roll or pass. If the item is class specific, characters who are that class automatically get a "need" if they opt to roll. If it's not class specific, you roll or you pass, giving everyone the same chance at the item if they choose to roll for non class specific items. If everyone passes, then the item can be up for a reroll similar to EQII. Also I'm noticing that lag is a factor for some people in dungeons with getting to loot items that don't require a roll which gives people with better connections or systems an advantage that should be equalized.
Devs, don't you think need and greed are clearly mislabeled here? Those with a personal ethos are those most likely to select greed instead of need, while those who are the most self serving and inconsiderate will be spamming the need option like there is no tomorrow.
It's really not a difficult thing to fix, given how much loot in this game is class specific. It's not even like other MMOs where armor types were used by multiple classes (cloth for casters, etc).
If it's a class-restricted item, only that class can roll Need. Everyone else can roll greed.
If it's a non-restricted (belt, ring, etc), keep it as it is.
Wow, problem solved. So difficult.
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ccoulterMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited May 2013
I'm still wondering why Cryptic hasn't implemented an individual loot system like, oh I don't know, DDO, a game that came out seven years ago...
I mean nothing's more of a genuine D&D experience that fighting over loot, so if they're going to use this system why half-HAMSTER$ it and just make it so the first person who grabs something pockets it and turn on total PVP so we can kill and loot each other? I mean hey, it worked out great for Ultima Online right?
As it stands simple looting has become a deeply divisive and adversarial part of the game. Are they lazy designers or is there a reason it is the way it is?
I'm still wondering why Cryptic hasn't implemented an individual loot system like, oh I don't know, DDO, a game that came out seven years ago...
Or like Cryptic Studio's first game, "City of Heroes," which came out nearly nine years ago...
As it stands simple looting has become a deeply divisive and adversarial part of the game. Are they lazy designers or is there a reason it is the way it is?
There's a reason, or at least I'm convinced there is. If you see a nice piece of loot, you've got something to work for - but you'll only work for it if it's not immediately available to you. If it's not available because another player rolled "need" on off-class gear, is your instinct to blame the game, or to blame the player?
In other words, it's a way to dangle a carrot on a stick, and getting people to believe that the reason they can't get the carrot is because of other people, rather than the stick.
____________________
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
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ccoulterMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited May 2013
I feel like they're delivering a lot more stick than carrot at this point and it might be driving more people to quit than to try and keep going. I don't think they though it out as much as you have; it feels like a low priority development issue that was left the way it is because it technically works, so they focused on more dangerous issues like crashes etc.
I feel like they're delivering a lot more stick than carrot at this point and it might be driving more people to quit than to try and keep going. I don't think they though it out as much as you have; it feels like a low priority development issue that was left the way it is because it technically works, so they focused on more dangerous issues like crashes etc.
But, at the same time, Cryptic did put enough thought into coloring off-class loot icons red.
It's classic Las Vegas psychology - inflate people's expectations about payouts by showing that other people are winning, while minimizing the individiual chances of those payouts actually occurring. (Bonus points if that minimization involves direct competition with other people; that kills both birds with one stone...)
Why do you think we all get lockbox spam when someone wins a mount? It's the same principle, just more blatant, so why do you think Cryptic/PWE wouldn't have considered the psychology of NGP? I've no doubt that the original implementation way back when didn't have that sort of reasoning behind it, but I also have no doubt that the marketing psychologists have keyed in on the effect. And I have no doubt they put it in the "Pro" column when deciding between loot systems.
____________________
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
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soulforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
ninja-looting is bad.
Don't do it and shame anyone who does it.
Those stating that we should get used to the new norm are clearly ninja-looters themselves and are trying to assuage their own guilt.
If something was wrong to do before it's still wrong to do now even IF you don't like how the systems implemented.
Its market economics, win or lose. Welcome to capitalism. But let’s not get overly academic. Let’s look at the mechanics.
In the business world, if even a single business does something to get ahead, every other business must do that as well or they lose.
That means if you are in a group of wonderful people and just a single bad guy, the bad guy automatically wins, unless you are all willing to be bad guys as well. And then it is an even competition. The devs could institute some mechanic to change that dynamic but they will only do so if there is pressure to do so.
So how can you put pressure on the devs to change a system that they clearly think is fine? Don’t use it. Roll need on all. Just state that going in. “Hi and welcome to the group, remember to need on all.” Want to trade class specific items? Go ahead; just feeling bad for that GW and want to give him that purple shield you won? Awesome. I think you should. But don’t rely on the broken stratagem of need vs. greed. Bypass it and go straight to the only strategy that guarantees a fair chance for everyone in the party. Roll need for all.
They game is still in beta and that means developers are still tweaking things. Having the majority of the player base simply reject a mechanic can be a stinging rebuke. Especially for admins who don’t really want other games, other companies and their bosses to see them and ineffectual.
The choice is yours and you have the power to send a message. Put some pressure on the developers to examine this system and make some better choices.
F.A.Q.
Rolling need all the time just isn’t nice
This isn’t about nice; it is about winning or losing. You can still be nice. You can trade or give out the equipment you have won. It is really even more proof of your largess that you take the time and effort to offer something to someone when you clearly do not have to do so. But you can only do this if you win the items and if someone else is hitting need while you are not, then you will not be winning. Your best chance lies in that need button and even then it is just an even chance.
Roll need on all means I will end up with other people's stuff and they will have mine.
Need on all does make the loot distribution truly random. You can trade items after the fact if you like or you can auction the items to raise the funds to buy things for your characters.
Need on all isn’t fair!
In truth it is the only system that is fair in that everyone in the group has the same chance to get anything. The need button turns the greed button into a pass button. That’s two pass buttons and one roll button, if we are counting. Eschew the pass buttons, everyone should roll.
It’s pretty cynical, are you really that jaded?
Mainly I want the devs to institute a system that helps classes get the loot they need without having it snatched out of their hands by ninja looters and greedy sods. In my opinion they should have thought about this way back when seeing as how it has been a constant problem for years in every other game that has loot. I am hoping that this will prompt them to devote a few mental watts to the problem to stop looking like clowns if for no other reason.
No clowns were harmed in the making of this post
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
^^^ Nornsavant. I agree 100%, well thought out, and well explained.
Edit: O.o there was a great post there...really.
Edit 2.0: o.O It's back!
HY! My name is Worthlessgroupmate PWE/Cryptic created me with their third world loot system. The healers get more dps and kills than me because I stand at chests while they kill stuff for me. If for some reason one of them beats me to the chests I run back and forth over top of them so they cant loot it after 2-5 minutes of this they always give up and eventually move on so I have all the chests. This gets me 3-4 blues every skirmish. In instances I need on everything and I wont talk in chat except when I win a blue I can't use then I say "lol" or "haha". I really enjoy it most when at the end I' 4th or 5th dps and win the loot of that last boss over the guy who out damaged me by 800,000.
I spend all day reading every thread and letting people know this is BETA.
Because that's totally worked for the past ten years, right? :rolleyes:
Those stating that we should get used to the new norm are clearly ninja-looters themselves and are trying to assuage their own guilt.
Is that a fact? It couldn't possibly be that people are saying, "hey, you're getting screwed, here's why," could it?
Not sure why people cling to systems of etiquette that completely fly in the face of reality... If you're gonna shake a finger at someone, do so at the developers who knowingly force players to compete for loot.
____________________
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
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keznMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited May 2013
generally i dont have this problem, but once in awhile there is the one guy that needs on every single item regardless if its BOP, ive lost a few upgrade blues because of it while i leveled up, annoying as hell but sadly its a common occurence in mmo's where you compete for loot and you just have to get used to it.
Comments
The only exclusion is class specific stuff that I personally just pass as bag space is limited enough even without collecting extra junk. But with original posters instructions every class would roll GREED on unidentified class specific item and the class that can actually use it wouldn't get better odds rolling it.
The other exclusion are runes but everyone will NEED roll them anyways unless they want to save bag space and skip them,
My personal opnion is just remove GREED button, make class specific stuff priority roll for correct classes and guilds and more organized parties can decide who gets stuff no matter how you roll it.
The system is just a bad system. If I am playing with friends/ people that I can generally trust, there aren't any problems. We can all need what we need and greed the rest.
But a PUG? I don't know you; You don't know me. Even if someone acts like they are going to greed or pass all the stuff that they can not use, the possibility exists that they will choose need at any time.
With little effective punishment available, it's easier just to go need on everything, from everyone.
I have no problems with someone getting "my" loot as long as we all know what the rules are up front. If someone gets this and someone else gets that, then there can be trading after the fact. If someone ends up with all the best stuff then good on them.
I would much rather need be greyed out for classes that can not equip the item in question, but it isn't.
We have what we have, and to me universal need cuts out as much grief as possible.
- Remove Greed option completely, it serves no purpose other than just being another "pass" option. (Sure, if 5 people click greed, then you still have a chance to get the loot, but come on people, seriously. This never happens.)
- Leave only 2 options availabe: "Need" and "Pass".
- Make it so that only if the specific item is useable by your class you can select Need, and if you cant use it due to different class, then the game automatically picks Pass for you, and only the people who can use it can select Need.
Example: You are a Trickster Rogue. Your team mates are: 1 rogue, 1 cleric, 1 Weapon fighter, and 1 Defender. Your party finds an item that is useable by Trickster Rogue. The cleric, weapon fighter and defender "Pass" on the item without having the ability to select any options, they dont have a choice at all. Then you and the other rogue are both offered the choice to either Need or Pass on the item, which is pretty fair.
There, everyone is happy, the system is pretty straight forward and simple, and people cant grab your rare loot only to sell it at the auction house for thousands of AD.
The need/greed system only works with friends, and perhaps guild mates. Other than that, chances are other people helped get the item that just dropped. Why shouldn't they roll and use it on an alt?...or roll and then vendor/auction it to buy other gear or items? If some exotic purple drops, everyone that helped get the item should have a shot at it, regardless of class. Besides, you can't even tell what an item is before looting it...unless I'm missing something? That item you think should be yours, may not even be an upgrade and then you'll just vendor it.
Still, I roll greed on things I can't equip on my main and need on things I can equip...that's just my style. I neither expect, or care, what others do...almost more loot where that one I just missed out came from.
This. 10char
Stupid...
I think you mean greed, not pass.
Pass = not take it.
Greed = I can take it if no one needs it and then if i win it i can save it or sell it and make profit.
if everyone passes on it its an item that could been sold or something or for guild members, aka its still useful even if the one right spec'd class did not need it.
As for major items.....
Ultimately this issue only exists in one forum......PUGS.........The easy answer is do not pug. This form of loot HAMSTER forces usto find friends and foster guild raiding parties.
But I guess if all people pass on it then the loot is lost?
If thats true, then remove the pass option and leave only Need and Greed.
Unfortunately, the gaming society is not what it once was. Way back when people would find they were social outcasts unable to get a group if they rolled need on items they obviously did not need.
Devs, don't you think need and greed are clearly mislabeled here? Those with a personal ethos are those most likely to select greed instead of need, while those who are the most self serving and inconsiderate will be spamming the need option like there is no tomorrow.
If it's a class-restricted item, only that class can roll Need. Everyone else can roll greed.
If it's a non-restricted (belt, ring, etc), keep it as it is.
Wow, problem solved. So difficult.
I mean nothing's more of a genuine D&D experience that fighting over loot, so if they're going to use this system why half-HAMSTER$ it and just make it so the first person who grabs something pockets it and turn on total PVP so we can kill and loot each other? I mean hey, it worked out great for Ultima Online right?
As it stands simple looting has become a deeply divisive and adversarial part of the game. Are they lazy designers or is there a reason it is the way it is?
There's a reason, or at least I'm convinced there is. If you see a nice piece of loot, you've got something to work for - but you'll only work for it if it's not immediately available to you. If it's not available because another player rolled "need" on off-class gear, is your instinct to blame the game, or to blame the player?
In other words, it's a way to dangle a carrot on a stick, and getting people to believe that the reason they can't get the carrot is because of other people, rather than the stick.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
It's classic Las Vegas psychology - inflate people's expectations about payouts by showing that other people are winning, while minimizing the individiual chances of those payouts actually occurring. (Bonus points if that minimization involves direct competition with other people; that kills both birds with one stone...)
Why do you think we all get lockbox spam when someone wins a mount? It's the same principle, just more blatant, so why do you think Cryptic/PWE wouldn't have considered the psychology of NGP? I've no doubt that the original implementation way back when didn't have that sort of reasoning behind it, but I also have no doubt that the marketing psychologists have keyed in on the effect. And I have no doubt they put it in the "Pro" column when deciding between loot systems.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
Don't do it and shame anyone who does it.
Those stating that we should get used to the new norm are clearly ninja-looters themselves and are trying to assuage their own guilt.
If something was wrong to do before it's still wrong to do now even IF you don't like how the systems implemented.
In the business world, if even a single business does something to get ahead, every other business must do that as well or they lose.
That means if you are in a group of wonderful people and just a single bad guy, the bad guy automatically wins, unless you are all willing to be bad guys as well. And then it is an even competition. The devs could institute some mechanic to change that dynamic but they will only do so if there is pressure to do so.
So how can you put pressure on the devs to change a system that they clearly think is fine? Don’t use it. Roll need on all. Just state that going in. “Hi and welcome to the group, remember to need on all.” Want to trade class specific items? Go ahead; just feeling bad for that GW and want to give him that purple shield you won? Awesome. I think you should. But don’t rely on the broken stratagem of need vs. greed. Bypass it and go straight to the only strategy that guarantees a fair chance for everyone in the party. Roll need for all.
They game is still in beta and that means developers are still tweaking things. Having the majority of the player base simply reject a mechanic can be a stinging rebuke. Especially for admins who don’t really want other games, other companies and their bosses to see them and ineffectual.
The choice is yours and you have the power to send a message. Put some pressure on the developers to examine this system and make some better choices.
F.A.Q.
Rolling need all the time just isn’t nice
This isn’t about nice; it is about winning or losing. You can still be nice. You can trade or give out the equipment you have won. It is really even more proof of your largess that you take the time and effort to offer something to someone when you clearly do not have to do so. But you can only do this if you win the items and if someone else is hitting need while you are not, then you will not be winning. Your best chance lies in that need button and even then it is just an even chance.
Roll need on all means I will end up with other people's stuff and they will have mine.
Need on all does make the loot distribution truly random. You can trade items after the fact if you like or you can auction the items to raise the funds to buy things for your characters.
Need on all isn’t fair!
In truth it is the only system that is fair in that everyone in the group has the same chance to get anything. The need button turns the greed button into a pass button. That’s two pass buttons and one roll button, if we are counting. Eschew the pass buttons, everyone should roll.
It’s pretty cynical, are you really that jaded?
Mainly I want the devs to institute a system that helps classes get the loot they need without having it snatched out of their hands by ninja looters and greedy sods. In my opinion they should have thought about this way back when seeing as how it has been a constant problem for years in every other game that has loot. I am hoping that this will prompt them to devote a few mental watts to the problem to stop looking like clowns if for no other reason.
No clowns were harmed in the making of this post
Edit: O.o there was a great post there...really.
Edit 2.0: o.O It's back!
Is that a fact? It couldn't possibly be that people are saying, "hey, you're getting screwed, here's why," could it?
Not sure why people cling to systems of etiquette that completely fly in the face of reality... If you're gonna shake a finger at someone, do so at the developers who knowingly force players to compete for loot.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos