For those who "want" the explanation on how other "60s" could ruin other people's play. Sure, I'll give it a shot.
Thing is, this was already a lost cause. Due to 1. Founders starting 5 days early, with 2. 2 million automatic diamonds. People who started at open beta were already "behind" and not going to get the same profit as other people. So if that's what you want "fixed".... too late.
Hearing about this nerf, I ran one of my favorite "I want to get some AD for the Foundry Daily" story-based missions (need to find more of those, for variety). I got 5.5 bars of xp, got several item drops, and several minor item drops (kits, potions, etc). Got an item from the end chest.
Yes, not quite as many item drops as before. But it seemed to work just fine. But, then, I was trying to avoid those "training" quests - accidentally fell into one a couple days ago, gained two levels on my rogue. Didn't like it, I didn't really want to outlevel my zone quests & queues.
In the end, as soon as I saw people spamming "Foundry XP powerleveling", I was expecting this to happen. Because I've seen the same thing happen in every other game I've played with a similar player-made-mission system. Paragon had to do it with CoH, Cryptic had to do it with STO. Not a surprise. I am kind of surprised at all the people acting indignant and surprised, hyperventilating over how everything is "ruined" (what a laugh, grow up people), etc, etc, etc. But then I remember that the Internet is for Whining.™
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flakelessMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
They obviously didn't think the whole player-built missions thing through. It's their fault for being so oblivious, I mean really. I would love to know their thought process-- "Okay, so we're going to let players build their own quests and put in X amounts of mobs that gives X amount of exp in there and X amounts of obstacles that you can put into the mission. Any questions? No? Okay, good to go". If it's that big of a problem why don't they just have a rollback levels (and return all AD and Zen spent)? Hah. :rolleyes:
This nerf pushes farmers OUT of the foundry and into the playing world where people are questing AND into the dungeons. Dungeons on farm now actually MAKES farming an issue.
Farming in the foundry = vendor items for gold.
Farming in the real world = grief for those needing mobs for quests.
Farming in dungeons = EPICS FLOODING THE ECONOMY
Gold = NOTHING
Having tons of pots/injury kits = ? people being able to play the game
Having few pots/kits = people having to FARM to be able to get them thus...making everything worse.
Tons of gold in the market? So what, you cant get AD or ZEN with it in ANY WAY AT ALL. There is nothing you can buy with gold that will net you AD or ZEN so there could by 10000000000x the amount of gold in the game and the economy is FINE!
The nerf makes NO SENSE AT ALL in any way shape or form because it doesn't actually STOP anything that is not now going to be done in the game world....derp!
You just illustrate my #1 point. since all the farmers are now out in the world, they will farm the "non-foundry" to get items since they can't get it via foundry.
This nerf pushes farmers OUT of the foundry and into the playing world where people are questing AND into the dungeons. Dungeons on farm now actually MAKES farming an issue.
Farming in the foundry = vendor items for gold.
Farming in the real world = grief for those needing mobs for quests.
Farming in dungeons = EPICS FLOODING THE ECONOMY
Gold = NOTHING
Having tons of pots/injury kits = ? people being able to play the game
Having few pots/kits = people having to FARM to be able to get them thus...making everything worse.
Tons of gold in the market? So what, you cant get AD or ZEN with it in ANY WAY AT ALL. There is nothing you can buy with gold that will net you AD or ZEN so there could by 10000000000x the amount of gold in the game and the economy is FINE!
The nerf makes NO SENSE AT ALL in any way shape or form because it doesn't actually STOP anything that is not now going to be done in the game world....derp!
This x100,000,000
They just totally ruined the game for the rest of us because now we will have no choice but play with the farmers and worse yet, see the market get corned by their farming dungeons and flooding the market with blue/epics.
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fullmetalpopeBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
So you basically just killed the main seller of your game. I just complete a Foundry mission and got a absolute <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> amount of exp for a reward. I will NEVER do another foundry mission again. I know it is harsh to say this and it makes it look like I am punishing all of the very talented authors out there that have completed content but there is absolutely no point in leveling my rog alt doing Foundry missions now. I wanted to level a Rogue like this because I have already leveled my main to 60 doing the in game quest lines.
Why did you not ban all of these exploiters that took advantage of the AoE grind fests? Why can you not limit each person to doing each Foundry run one time per day to eliminate this ridiculous farming method of resetting. What a bone headed move.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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isakongmingMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 2Arc User
Why did you not ban all of these exploiters that took advantage of the AoE grind fests? Why can you not limit each person to doing each Foundry run one time per day to eliminate this ridiculous farming method of resetting. What a bone headed move.
1. Shouldn't ban players for doing what the game was designed to do, it was an issue brought up in the foundry beta that was ignored by the devs, we said it would happen and pointed it out several times. and besides, it actually does nothing to harm the game since there are no epic drops and gold does not effect the economy because its AD/ZEN based and you cant get that with gold and you can still power level to 60 in 2 days without foundry farming...also, now farmers will go to the dungeons and flood the AH with blue/epic drops and get ACTUAL AD/ZEN to ruin the economy!
2. Yes they absolutely should go back to the way it was in the HotN beta, can only do a foundry quest once per day.
People wanting to control how others play.In a MMO?Who would of thunk it.Reasons not to group.So some people got to 60 quick.That is their business.No one forces anyone to do what they did.My highest is 34 and who the freel cares what others do.I will get there when I get there.I haven't had anyone interfere with my game.I will just take my sweet time.That is me.How others play is up to them.
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uedajiruMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Call me weird, i thought foundrys were ment to enjoy peoples cool stories within the forgotten relms. I really dont understand those who want to lvl in foundry to get to 60 asap. There missing out on so much content , itslike your skipping a huge chunk of content to get to 60, then complain your bored as there isnt much to do. Wtf? just baffeles my mind. This is far from a competitive pve mmo either so its just strange. Maybe now with these nurfs to xp in foundry , it can actually be used for what its ment for, and i dont have to cylce threw tones of garbage foundrys that are made for xp and find my story quests nice and easy.
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cedricfontelroyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The only reason you should be running foundry missions is to have fun. If your running them for uber experience then your just attempting to exploit the game.
Running them for uber experience is fun for some people.
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sixvoltMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Hi, this is going to be my complaint thread about the foundry nerf, and I've already seen some threads on it, but I figured I may as well post my ideas too.. Oh, in case some of you haven't heard of it, people were going into Ogre farming Foundry maps, it was 100% of your exp bar each time you complete it (or at least it was for the map I was completeing, and it would take about 10-20 minutes)
First and foremost, all of the level 60s already.. they're all over every server because of this glitch, sure you've "fixed" (aka destroyed) the foundry, and any other soon to be 60s from farming them, but from what I see here you're almost saying "Ok, you've exploited this too much now, there's about 500,000 60s now, that's enough". And they get no repercussions whatsoever.
Secondly, what's the point of even running the Foundry now that you've lowered the exp and drops by what.. 85%? I know at least while I'm leveling, I will never be running another Foundry mission again, and most likely once I'm 60 as well, there's no point.
Anyways, those were my complaints, the damage has already been done, you've now given a round of applause to all of the exploiter 60s and forced everyone else to level normally again. Fix? Maybe, just not in my eyes. (And P.S. this is coming from somebody who owns the Hero of the North founders pack and who had/has high hopes for this game).
I understand your position, and if the leveling grind was even remotely hard or long, I might be inclined to agree with it... but it just doesn't take any time at all to level in NW as it currently is. Sure all those people made 60 a day or two faster than people who do it legitimately, but it's not like it's a matter of weeks or months, so there's really very little advantage they achieve from it.
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misspaigeyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Running them for uber experience is fun for some people.
Lets make it so foundry drops are BOP then so the "fun" doesnt spill over into the economy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people who dont abuse this??
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Still trying to find a reference to AD in my AD&D Manuals.
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blacksuntyrant1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited May 2013
I really don't want to play Cryptic content to level up alts and things. It gets pretty tiring. I didn't run the ogre type missions for xp, I just liked combat packed missions with some story in the foundry. Combat was often more challenging and more fun, and since you couldn't get quest rewards or any kind of guaranteed special items from foundry quests, it was a good offset.
As a regular foundry author, its kind of a shame. Sure, I want people to play my and friends' content, but I also don't want it to be something of a time wasting charity.
Was it really lowered to 25% of its original amount? Or was it lowered to 75%?
I'd say hopefully this is just temporary fix while they figure out a better way to address the issue of mass farming, but temporary can be anywhere from a week or two to well over a year.
I'm really sick of having to quest for progress in mmos. I don't like quests. There's pvp which gives solid XP, but that'st he only other way really. I'd rather just fight interesting mobs where the challenge lies beyond just 'get better numbers'.
Shame. Played through every single quest on my GWF, no way I'm gonna do that again on other toons, this was a viable alternative. Protip: Most of the exploit 60's are wizards or clerics, they still need the other classes to group with usually. Good luck to them all finding groups easily.
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clarkeuxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Look, bottom line is they CAN'T reset the people who done this. It's beta they found a bug and the bug is now fixed.
If they went ahead and reset the people that done this, myself included, they would leave the game because chances are they hate questing in MMO's and prefer dungeon crawling and endgame content.
"All shall burn before the hellfire I rain unto my Foes"
I completely agree with you. The nerf to the foundry was way too severe. Now the loot is terrible and the xp is unbelievably bad. The foundry was one of the best parts of the game and now they completely ruined it. I didn't pay any money for the game so I have no problem playing other games until they fix it, and hopefully they do as soon as possible.
It's really sad. I don't see why we can't both have fun and earn XP. You can either be: 1. Doing non-foundry stuff to gain levels and loots or 2. Do fun foundry stuff and don't be awarded.
I completely agree with you. The nerf to the foundry was way too severe. Now the loot is terrible and the xp is unbelievably bad. The foundry was one of the best parts of the game and now they completely ruined it. I didn't pay any money for the game so I have no problem playing other games until they fix it, and hopefully they do as soon as possible.
You mean the players exploiting right? Because that is why changes were done in the first place.
Foundry is awesome as it is, especially at cap, who cares about xp and loot that can drop from there? There are awesome ones that i have run at 60 that show the potential of the system. Any system that allows people to make these will have people trying to find ways to exploit them, it's human nature. Thankfully it is also human nature to tell stories and play.
I'll be playing foundry quests long after all the exploiters and power levelers have gone to complain in the next game, which i'm guessing will be the elder scrolls game.
At the early levels, especially for GWF, a lot of the foundry quests are difficult and its hard to tell which ones you can safely play. A return in investment is sorely needed unless you want to go bankrupt.
So you basically just killed the main seller of your game.
What I want to know is, how is the Foundry "killed"? It still gives loot, it still gives XP, and it still gives authors & players the chance to play through home-made adventure "modules" like in good old tabletop D&D.
Yes, Uber-Power-Leveling was "killed"..... but that was never the point or the advertised goal of the Foundry. So the removal of that, doesn't make the Foundry dead. Well, at least not for the people who aren't looking to push a button and ding 60.
I also find the complaining about how people can't level fast anymore to be kind of wacky, given how fast the leveling is just doing the other in-game activities. We've really come a long way from the days where you had to grind (with a party) world mobs for several days to get one level. (not that I think this isn't an improvement. Although, as I said, the leveling speed does seem a bit on the fast side. Just questing & doing some dailies.)
I agree with the xp nerf. I don't agree with the loot nerf though. They need to go back to the drawing board and refine loot based on difficulty of the foundry.
To be fair I'm full healer spec and didn't know the glitch if there was one. Those full ogre maps were pretty much unclearable for me even with full aoe skills. The nerf seems to hit normal maps pretty hard though, not an ideal situation. Punish everyone for a few people exploiting.
The only reason you should be running foundry missions is to have fun. If your running them for uber experience then your just attempting to exploit the game.
This, this, this, thank you. A fellow gamer of high calibur. Seriously who cares if people already got to 60, at least it is fixed, it will make it much more fun now like it should be. Move along and enjoy the game for gods sake, I know I will be. I didn't even want to play the Foundry as I felt like I would be cheating myself the way it was "now I will actually enjoy some", surprised so many did/wanted to, gamers lack tenacity these days that is for sure.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
For those asking the question, "Why are people mad about people who exploited their way to 60, it doesn't affect you."
Really? Those people who managed to reap all the rewards of an easy 60, who just got any moderate reward that people using the foundry as intended (and don't give me 'well it was intended to be exploited' because clearly it wasn't or they wouldn't have been constantly removing exploit foundry quests) removed entirely- didn't effect us?
They just destroyed foundry as a viable alternative for levelling by legitimate players. Sure, you couldn't gain a level a minute by doing story based quests or dungeon delves- but you could still gain levels eventually- now, the xp is so paltry you might as well not be getting anything at all from it.
And once again, exploiters have ruined the game for everyone else- good job Cryptic for going after the people who are just trying to play the game and ignoring all the people who used obvious exploits. Thank you so much for ignoring all the warnings you got in alpha telling you that this would be exploited, and asking you what you were going to do to make sure this didn't happen- and good job ignoring the fact that you already had a game with this feature and THAT didn't even teach you a lesson.
And thank you, all you people standing up for the exploiters, who kept making new foundry exploit quests even after everyone knew (because zone chat was being spammed with it) that these were being banned and removed constantly.
Good job Cryptic, it takes a special kind of developer to say 'hey all you cheaters, you can keep what you earned- by the way, everyone who didn't cheat, take this punishment'.
Good thing you're proving you're exactly the company everyone said you were before open beta is even done, bravo.
Of course, we all know the real reason you haven't done anything about the cheaters is because they weren't able to exploit in zen.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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sandolphanMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited May 2013
All they needed to do was make it so if a mob couldn't reach its attacker because of it's AI (mobs wont walk over traps) OR by a physical barrier, that the mob gives no xp. Easy fix and only hurts exploiters.
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highjusticarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0
edited May 2013
Here is my problem with it.
One of the main sellers of the game is the Foundry. Create your own missions/dungeons and play the one other people created.
What most people wanted to do is play the main missions with a few characters and then level any new characters using the foundry. This was my plan and just last night I was wondering would I fall behind in the loot I need at each level range other than the free bag if I did this.
The answer now is a resounding YES!
It seems that not only will I fall behind on loot/gear, I will be behind on gold to buy the incidentals all the while while having to run far more missions in the foundry compared to the main quests just to gain a level.
Yes, I was there for the Champions opening day nerf where they completed gutted the game I had paid to play early to the point that everybody's builds were invalid and had to be respec'd on opening day.
As a six and a half year vet of City of Heroes(the game that -pioneered- user generated content, by the way), when the Mission Architect system came out.....same thing happened. People made a bunch of low-risk, high-reward maps and just farmed the h-e-double-hockey-sticks out of them. Bans were leveled once exploits were found. People wailed and gnashed teeth. Paragon Studios started the nerfs. Eventually, the rewards of running AE missions just wasn't worth the effort and people stopped playing AE missions. Even the "good" ones, that were story based.
Taking that page from the lesson book presented to you, Cryptic developers...do NOT remove or reduce the rewards in Foundry missions, otherwise the main draw of your game is now defunct and nullified. Word of warning from someone who has SEEN it happen. Don't repeat someone else's mistake.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
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misspaigeyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
All they had to do was make mobs immune to damage if they can't attack you.. Then all the stupid "ogres in a box" maps would've been useless and all the "you actually have to fight the mobs" maps still viable. As it is now, you get almost no xp while doing foundry and you get almost no reward for doing it except the story. It really would've been nice to have another option besides doing cryptic quests when going from 1-60.
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Thing is, this was already a lost cause. Due to 1. Founders starting 5 days early, with 2. 2 million automatic diamonds. People who started at open beta were already "behind" and not going to get the same profit as other people. So if that's what you want "fixed".... too late.
Hearing about this nerf, I ran one of my favorite "I want to get some AD for the Foundry Daily" story-based missions (need to find more of those, for variety). I got 5.5 bars of xp, got several item drops, and several minor item drops (kits, potions, etc). Got an item from the end chest.
Yes, not quite as many item drops as before. But it seemed to work just fine. But, then, I was trying to avoid those "training" quests - accidentally fell into one a couple days ago, gained two levels on my rogue. Didn't like it, I didn't really want to outlevel my zone quests & queues.
In the end, as soon as I saw people spamming "Foundry XP powerleveling", I was expecting this to happen. Because I've seen the same thing happen in every other game I've played with a similar player-made-mission system. Paragon had to do it with CoH, Cryptic had to do it with STO. Not a surprise. I am kind of surprised at all the people acting indignant and surprised, hyperventilating over how everything is "ruined" (what a laugh, grow up people), etc, etc, etc. But then I remember that the Internet is for Whining.™
Should we really be surprised by this though?
You just illustrate my #1 point. since all the farmers are now out in the world, they will farm the "non-foundry" to get items since they can't get it via foundry.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
This x100,000,000
They just totally ruined the game for the rest of us because now we will have no choice but play with the farmers and worse yet, see the market get corned by their farming dungeons and flooding the market with blue/epics.
Why did you not ban all of these exploiters that took advantage of the AoE grind fests? Why can you not limit each person to doing each Foundry run one time per day to eliminate this ridiculous farming method of resetting. What a bone headed move.
1. Shouldn't ban players for doing what the game was designed to do, it was an issue brought up in the foundry beta that was ignored by the devs, we said it would happen and pointed it out several times. and besides, it actually does nothing to harm the game since there are no epic drops and gold does not effect the economy because its AD/ZEN based and you cant get that with gold and you can still power level to 60 in 2 days without foundry farming...also, now farmers will go to the dungeons and flood the AH with blue/epic drops and get ACTUAL AD/ZEN to ruin the economy!
2. Yes they absolutely should go back to the way it was in the HotN beta, can only do a foundry quest once per day.
Running them for uber experience is fun for some people.
I understand your position, and if the leveling grind was even remotely hard or long, I might be inclined to agree with it... but it just doesn't take any time at all to level in NW as it currently is. Sure all those people made 60 a day or two faster than people who do it legitimately, but it's not like it's a matter of weeks or months, so there's really very little advantage they achieve from it.
That's me.
Lets make it so foundry drops are BOP then so the "fun" doesnt spill over into the economy <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people who dont abuse this??
As a regular foundry author, its kind of a shame. Sure, I want people to play my and friends' content, but I also don't want it to be something of a time wasting charity.
Was it really lowered to 25% of its original amount? Or was it lowered to 75%?
I'd say hopefully this is just temporary fix while they figure out a better way to address the issue of mass farming, but temporary can be anywhere from a week or two to well over a year.
I'm really sick of having to quest for progress in mmos. I don't like quests. There's pvp which gives solid XP, but that'st he only other way really. I'd rather just fight interesting mobs where the challenge lies beyond just 'get better numbers'.
If they went ahead and reset the people that done this, myself included, they would leave the game because chances are they hate questing in MMO's and prefer dungeon crawling and endgame content.
Oops.
You mean the players exploiting right? Because that is why changes were done in the first place.
I'll be playing foundry quests long after all the exploiters and power levelers have gone to complain in the next game, which i'm guessing will be the elder scrolls game.
What I want to know is, how is the Foundry "killed"? It still gives loot, it still gives XP, and it still gives authors & players the chance to play through home-made adventure "modules" like in good old tabletop D&D.
Yes, Uber-Power-Leveling was "killed"..... but that was never the point or the advertised goal of the Foundry. So the removal of that, doesn't make the Foundry dead. Well, at least not for the people who aren't looking to push a button and ding 60.
I also find the complaining about how people can't level fast anymore to be kind of wacky, given how fast the leveling is just doing the other in-game activities. We've really come a long way from the days where you had to grind (with a party) world mobs for several days to get one level. (not that I think this isn't an improvement. Although, as I said, the leveling speed does seem a bit on the fast side. Just questing & doing some dailies.)
This, this, this, thank you. A fellow gamer of high calibur. Seriously who cares if people already got to 60, at least it is fixed, it will make it much more fun now like it should be. Move along and enjoy the game for gods sake, I know I will be. I didn't even want to play the Foundry as I felt like I would be cheating myself the way it was "now I will actually enjoy some", surprised so many did/wanted to, gamers lack tenacity these days that is for sure.
Really? Those people who managed to reap all the rewards of an easy 60, who just got any moderate reward that people using the foundry as intended (and don't give me 'well it was intended to be exploited' because clearly it wasn't or they wouldn't have been constantly removing exploit foundry quests) removed entirely- didn't effect us?
They just destroyed foundry as a viable alternative for levelling by legitimate players. Sure, you couldn't gain a level a minute by doing story based quests or dungeon delves- but you could still gain levels eventually- now, the xp is so paltry you might as well not be getting anything at all from it.
And once again, exploiters have ruined the game for everyone else- good job Cryptic for going after the people who are just trying to play the game and ignoring all the people who used obvious exploits. Thank you so much for ignoring all the warnings you got in alpha telling you that this would be exploited, and asking you what you were going to do to make sure this didn't happen- and good job ignoring the fact that you already had a game with this feature and THAT didn't even teach you a lesson.
And thank you, all you people standing up for the exploiters, who kept making new foundry exploit quests even after everyone knew (because zone chat was being spammed with it) that these were being banned and removed constantly.
Good job Cryptic, it takes a special kind of developer to say 'hey all you cheaters, you can keep what you earned- by the way, everyone who didn't cheat, take this punishment'.
Good thing you're proving you're exactly the company everyone said you were before open beta is even done, bravo.
Of course, we all know the real reason you haven't done anything about the cheaters is because they weren't able to exploit in zen.
One of the main sellers of the game is the Foundry. Create your own missions/dungeons and play the one other people created.
What most people wanted to do is play the main missions with a few characters and then level any new characters using the foundry. This was my plan and just last night I was wondering would I fall behind in the loot I need at each level range other than the free bag if I did this.
The answer now is a resounding YES!
It seems that not only will I fall behind on loot/gear, I will be behind on gold to buy the incidentals all the while while having to run far more missions in the foundry compared to the main quests just to gain a level.
Yes, I was there for the Champions opening day nerf where they completed gutted the game I had paid to play early to the point that everybody's builds were invalid and had to be respec'd on opening day.
As a six and a half year vet of City of Heroes(the game that -pioneered- user generated content, by the way), when the Mission Architect system came out.....same thing happened. People made a bunch of low-risk, high-reward maps and just farmed the h-e-double-hockey-sticks out of them. Bans were leveled once exploits were found. People wailed and gnashed teeth. Paragon Studios started the nerfs. Eventually, the rewards of running AE missions just wasn't worth the effort and people stopped playing AE missions. Even the "good" ones, that were story based.
Taking that page from the lesson book presented to you, Cryptic developers...do NOT remove or reduce the rewards in Foundry missions, otherwise the main draw of your game is now defunct and nullified. Word of warning from someone who has SEEN it happen. Don't repeat someone else's mistake.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
EXACTLY! Updating my post with that