Careful with the EQ2 comparisons, since that game's F2P function is even more horrifyingly pay2win than Neverwinter. Locked spell tiers and item rarities by membership, what the hell?
except the fact that you forgot this is an open ****ing beta and everything is subject to change, also customization and experimentation are the cores of D&D and if you dont think that then you're not playing D&D. i hope you **** up your character and cry that respects are too expensive
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championchains03Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
except the fact that you forgot this is an open ****ing beta and everything is subject to change, also customization and experimentation are the cores of D&D and if you dont think that then you're not playing D&D. i hope you **** up your character and cry that respects are too expensive
Except that this isn't really an open beta. It's a launch tagged as open beta to keep the players complaints and expectations to a minimum.
except the fact that you forgot this is an open ****ing beta and everything is subject to change, also customization and experimentation are the cores of D&D and if you dont think that then you're not playing D&D. i hope you **** up your character and cry that respects are too expensive
On topic: how this can even be considered ok to not be able to respec easily is beyond idiotic.
using the argument that because you cant do it in pnp dnd is also moronic.
This is a MMORPG based very loosely on the ruleset of pnp blah blah.
On topic: how this can even be considered ok to not be able to respec easily is beyond idiotic.
using the argument that because you cant do it in pnp dnd is also moronic.
This is a MMORPG based very loosely on the ruleset of pnp blah blah.
im an idiot yet all you can say is "you're an idiot" without providing a valid argument lmao thats funny, you tried though and thats all that counts i guess
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Except that this isn't really an open beta. It's a launch tagged as open beta to keep the players complaints and expectations to a minimum.
True. Its a 'soft launch'. It's simply a period where the company shows off their product but with an added 'grace period' to write off all poor performance. It simply provides a defensive argument to die hard fans, desperately looking to write off any and all complaints.
This game isn't changing based on reports of feedback. Hell CBT is when major game changes occur, and Cryptic/PWE reduced that period to a few publicity stunt weekends. Cryptic has always ignored feedback, and criticism, so I don't understand why anyone uses 'beta' as an excuse. Cryptic doesn't use betas the same way other companies do.
Take Gazillion, they have a much smaller budget, and much more to lose with Marvel Heroes. But their CBT and sales practices have changed based on player feedback. They were going to stop selling heroes in the cash shop directly, and start selling them randomly (like lock boxes for characters. Player feedback was unanimous, and in less than a week the CM had taken our concerns back to the CEO/development team and negotiated a fix that pleased everyone.
You probably won't see that here.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
except the fact that you forgot this is an open ****ing beta and everything is subject to change, also customization and experimentation are the cores of D&D and if you dont think that then you're not playing D&D. i hope you **** up your character and cry that respects are too expensive
No, we just understand what open beta for this game actually means. A soft launch. Anyone who has played PWE or most free to play game, knows that OBT is an open house for the finalized game, and that very little will actually change. Closed beta is where major changes usually occur, and this game did CBT poorly.
Subject to change? Yes. Possibility of actually changing? Very little.
and if so much of this game is in flux as you assume? Then why charge for repecs at all? Shouldn't they be free until abilities are fully developed? Or at the very least explained fully? If this was a transitory beta period, they wouldn't be taking money to change decisions based on systems still in flux.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
This is a beautiful case of a very vocal group of players advocating for the removal of something that literally has no effect on them whatsoever.
In a game where it's impossible to plan ahead properly, they advocate planning your build ahead of time without any leeway given for mistakes.
Absolutely disgusting vitriol coming from people that clearly don't understand how detrimental no respecs (or excessively expensive) can be to an MMO. You're fine to have your opinion on it, but why does it have to be so toxic and with a condescending attitude? With the constant "IF THIS WAS MY TABLETOP" irrelevant analogies?
The fact is that it is not possible to 'pay attention to your choices' is going over so many people's heads it upsets me. The most hardcore and diehard people in this topic are most likely the people who are actually going to be negatively impacted by their choices. Perhaps you simply won't care that your build is inefficient, but if you truly believe it's possible to make an efficient build in your first leveling experience with any class, you're deluded.
The PNP mindset has no place in an MMO. This isn't a tabletop, it's an MMORPG. It's a simple fact that needs to be accepted before you even form a single opinion on this game. Asking a player to invest 20-60 hours of effort for the same class to have separate PvP and PvE builds? Is that even a serious opinion?
I'm aware my own post contains some of the rude/condescending tone I warned about, and I apologize, but it's very important for an MMO to develop a strong 'hardcore' community for it to survive. It's a smaller portion than the casual community, but a large element that advances the metagame significantly further and faster than the casual portion. Each group of players are necessary for a successful MMO, and without 'relatively available' respecs the hardcore community is less likely to develop in any real way.
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clockwerkninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I guess you should all head back over to WoW then? Going to miss you all..Stuck here in my crappy limited respec game with my closest few hundred thousand friends..
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
AD actually comes pretty quickly near cap, not enough to respect whenever you want but quick enough for once or twice a week. However Andrew does have a point.
The value of servers tends to be completely determined by the top 2-3 guilds. Granted with the small group size of the content it might become a larger number of guilds buy the % of players should be about the same. Its sort of like real life in a way where the top 1% of a country usually determines the standard of living for everyone else.
If it because to expensive for anyone but the p2p players to excel in the top 1% then there is a problem with the game that should be fixed.
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championchains03Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
I guess you should all head back over to WoW then?
One reason WoW is so successful is because the player base has so much information from theorycrafters and players who experiment, do the math and break everything down and make it understandable for other players. These theorycrafters are basically the d&d player manuals for the mmo world. If there was a dollar amount attached to each time a theorycrafter tried to experiment, WoW likely wouldn't have been as successful.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited May 2013
andrewfdsa,
Well said. Truly.
For ALL OF YOU. I am well aware this is not a tabletop game. That doesn't matter.
Some semblance to D&D has to be kept though. Touting a flag that this is an MMO so throw the D&D out and bring in full fledged MMO...it's wrong. WRONG.
I don't want respects. I'd rather have people plan their build ahead of time. That's my preference.
But my offer, as a compromise, has and always will be respecs are there if you need them. I don't care how they are limited but they need to be limited.
I don't care if they're 5 dollars or once per month quests. Either sounds fine to me.
But free respects even once per week is too common in my books, but even that I would live with.
End result is I am being very reasonable in my opinion. I'm not saying make this game PnP. If I was I'd be writing a whole lot differently.
But this isn't just an MMO. At will respecs are out of the question.
Both communities can compromise and enjoy the game. You can't have no respecs. I would prefer it but you can't.
But you also can't make a D&D game give unlimited at will respecs. Period.
One reason WoW is so successful is because the player base has so much information from theorycrafters and players who experiment, do the math and break everything down and make it understandable for other players. These theorycrafters are basically the d&d player manuals for the mmo world. If there was a dollar amount attached to each time a theorycrafter tried to experiment, WoW likely wouldn't have been as successful.
As someone who theorycrafted in WoW it will actually be fairly difficult in this game to output numbers for some classes. On the bosses I have tanked on my guardian its entirely possible to avoid all/most of the damage of a boss which devalues traditional mitigation and leaves room for a more damage oriented build. Mechanical execution is going to be more important and its hard to factor that into an equation since it isn't restricted by measurable numbers.
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
But you also can't make a D&D game give unlimited at will respecs. Period.
This game has unlimited respecs.
You just have to pay cash for them. So why aren't you running back to your bosses, and suggesting that respecs be payed for in gold, but you can only do it once a month?
I can drop a wad of cash and buy a stack of respecs and everything you said is null and void.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
a. lack of information on skills/feats to properly plan a build
b. lack of resources on endgame stats (value of stats, what endgame stats mean for your class, the value for specific specs) and how it interacts with everything else
c. tooltips not properly updating to reflect feat values
d. zen requirement for power respecs
and probably some other ones!
But the thing that arises from them, and has impact on why respeccing is so important, is that it is currently not possible to expect any player to plan a build in advance at the moment. There aren't even functioning talent calculators yet.
It is my opinion that cheap respecs greatly enhance a game. WoW has a significant theorycrafting community that legitimately change the way WoW works. People will argue that it is unfortunate that the prevalence of theorycrafting (and it is seriously prevalent with the ability to calculate DPS in a simulated encounter without even running the game and with the ability to change settings on a gear or talent levle) people are not only expected to run optimal builds, it is expected by the developers and tuned to those builds. However, that only impacts the community of hardcore players. Casual players will be unaffected.
ambisinisterr, thankfully you aren't rude about your opinion and offer some concession. But for the people advocating available respecs it's difficult to understand why someone would care about what another person is able to do with their skill points when it doesn't affect them in any way.
Perhaps the availability in WoW is a bit too free, but it brings up an important point. What is more important to you?
Being able to find what you enjoy in a game, and have your fun derived from that?
or
Living with your choices because that's how it should be?
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bodzsarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Would the easiest and best solution to this to have two buttons like clothing one for armor and one for cloths but instead one for PVE and one for PVP so respecs are still hard to obtain and you choices still do matter but it also solves the problem of people wanting to mix/max pvp and pve specs?
As someone who theorycrafted in WoW it will actually be fairly difficult in this game to output numbers for some classes. On the bosses I have tanked on my guardian its entirely possible to avoid all/most of the damage of a boss which devalues traditional mitigation and leaves room for a more damage oriented build. Mechanical execution is going to be more important and its hard to factor that into an equation since it isn't restricted by measurable numbers.
Encounters such as this exist in some form or another for the most part in WoW as well. However, that isn't a valid comparison for a few key reasons.
The first is that WoW is designed such that, in raiding, tank DPS is irrelevant (it is merely a bonus when pushing new content). Because of this, tanks are never forced to itemize to maximize DPS at the expense of surivability.
The other is that tanks are able to theorycraft pure survivability. You don't need to see a specific encounters damage to calculate your effective survivability for the vast majority of encounters. In the situations where you need to maximize survivability in that way, it's typically done by simply bringing another class to tank because that different tanks mechanics may be more favorable for the type of damage that needs to be mitigated.
Would the easiest and best solution to this to have two buttons like clothing one for armor and one for cloths but instead one for PVE and one for PVP so respecs are still hard to obtain and you choices still do matter but it also solves the problem of people wanting to mix/max pvp and pve specs?
If you could have a dual talent spec that was limited to specifically PvP/PvE, and got something like 1 free respec at 60, I'd probably be a lot less upset.
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asg4rdlordMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited May 2013
Well I'm all for character differentiation through choices, but in an mmo cookie-cutter builds will inevitably emerge after each patch, so players who want to play at the top of their class's potential effectiveness will switch to them sooner or later. So if the "unique" factor is out of the picture, all that strict builds leave you with is a soft "lockdown" to one facet of the game, be it pvp-spec or pve-spec. Even with the relevant itemization choices.
On the other hand, hard respecs do give a certain character to players within a guild. For instance cleric-x is a good pvp healer, cleric-y is a good pve healer or tank such and such handles multiple mob encounters better and so forth. But that also means that x or y will be left out of certain content for faster progress.
So it's a bit of a sensitive issue, but my proposal is to definitely be allowed a free respec at level cap because no one can predict the skill balance or even which aspect of the game they will delve into more at end game. Other than that paying $$ to respec at whim is quite off putting as far as balance goes. A firm but fair system of being able to respec on a weekly basis or with a gold cost that will increase or decrease every time based on how often you do it (like in old school wow), would be preferable.
That's my 2 cents anyway, sorry for the wall of text
I haven't looked in to the respec tokens, isn't it just $6 for a respec token, and that does your talent points and your feat points too, so it's like you have a brand new character?
For ALL OF YOU. I am well aware this is not a tabletop game. That doesn't matter.
Yes, it does, because tabletop games and MMOs are vastly different things.
Some semblance to D&D has to be kept though. Touting a flag that this is an MMO so throw the D&D out and bring in full fledged MMO...it's wrong. WRONG.
It's also way too late for that, considering they already threw out all the D&D except the flavor. When you ask someone 'what is D&D to you', they probably aren't going to have 'rigid, inflexible mechanics' in their top 10 (and if they do, you should probably run away).
But you also can't make a D&D game give unlimited at will respecs. Period.
Yes, actually, it turns out that you can. Not only in tabletop, not only in other D&D games, but in this very game, where they are both unlimited and at-will! They just also cost money, which is a weird and obnoxious cash grab. Nothing to do with the 'spirit' of D&D - just ruthlessly efficient marketing.
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
ambisinisterr, thankfully you aren't rude about your opinion and offer some concession. But for the people advocating available respecs it's difficult to understand why someone would care about what another person is able to do with their skill points when it doesn't affect them in any way.
I apologize for being so angry. But people who make it their business, preaching joyless systems that prevent something that would make the game more enjoyable to a LOT of people, that does not affect them at all, in a GAME, infuriate me.
If this affected their gameplay, I'd understand. But it really doesn't. Especially here in this case, since it really isn't harder to respec, just costly. Its a limit imposed strictly to make money.
I'd have no problem putting a limit on respecs. Putting a cool down on them, or making the gold cost higher each subsequent respec until a cap is reached. Something that doesn't require a month+ of daily grinding, or a nickle and diming cash shop purchase.
I have no problem compromising.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
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bosnianhitmanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited May 2013
Direcrow, Championchains03, Andrewfdsa - You guys/gals are amazing; thank you for being the voice of reason here.
For those of you still championing this "Respecs make the game less rewarding" nonsense, you people are either delusional or ignorant. You simply cannot make an informed decision on what constitutes an effective end-game build when you first start playing. Given this limitation, why should people be penalized for it? Many tooltips are either incredibly ambiguous, or downright misleading in how they explain effects; this makes it amazingly easy to sink valuable points into feats that do literally nothing beneficial for you.
As Direcrow has stated previously, having a convenient respec would not adversely effect you in any way shape or form. You guys would be more than welcome to ignore the system for whatever reasons you may have, and it wouldn't cause you any emotional or physical harm.
You would still be able to fly your "I'm a virtual hardass" flag.
Additionally, since so many of you are so confident that the game is still in beta, wouldn't it make sense for Cryptic to allow an infinite number of respecs. From a software testing standpoint, nothing would be better than to receive free tester feedback on any strange problems that may arise in certain builds.
Saying that having a flawed system somehow adds value to a video game (you know, those things you play to relax) is absurd to say the least.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited May 2013
Whether or not there are unlimited respecs in the game effects me. Greatly.
It's something I would leave over. And I know others would too.
There's some things I can and do turn a blind eye to but respecs aren't one of them.
$5 is enough of a limit in my book. Either you don't respec commonly or you fund the game's development.
I wouldn't be against means to get them for free on occasion. I'm not going to say add it because I am happy where it is but I wouldn't care if occasional free respecs were added.
The game should have more information on the actual powers and mechanics. The game should be more forgiving for errors such as 4E's retraining mechanics.
Those are the problems that need to be addressed.
Those you have my full support and backing on.
Respec'ing at a whim shouldn't see the light of day in any game, though, and putting it in this game would be no different than vandalism in my eyes.
EDIT - Yes, jaz182. The respec token resets powers, feats and I believe the aditional ability point selections. Possibly some other things. It basically knocks you back to level 1.
I actually do appreciate respecs not being handed out like candy. But it should actually feel rewarding to obtain one.
I remember something in CoH where you had to do a series of missions in order to gain a respec, wouldn't mind having something like that.
Then people with diamonds or money can just plop it down to get a respec NOW as convenience, win/win.
Yep I remember the respec trials, although CoH did give you one for free at max level. Then you had to earn them, either in game, or buy them, if I remember correctly. COH had design choices and mechanics that were legendary. Wanna hold Neverwinter to a higher standard? Hold it against COH not WoW. Make Cryptic top themselves.
Whether or not there are unlimited respecs in the game effects me. Greatly.
It's something I would leave over. And I know others would too.
There's some things I can and do turn a blind eye to but respecs aren't one of them.
$5 is enough of a limit in my book. Either you don't respec commonly or you fund the game's development.
I wouldn't be against means to get them for free on occasion, but I'm not going to say add it because I am happy where it is but I wouldn't care if occasional free respecs were added.
The game should have more information on the actual powers and mechanics. The game should be more forgiving for errors such as 4E's retraining mechanics.
Those are the problems that need to be addressed.
Those you have my full support and backing on.
Respec'ing at a whim shouldn't see the light of day in any game, though, and putting it in this game would be no different than vandalism in my eyes.
No, it really, really doesn't affect you at all.
There's a shock. The community manager draws the line, right where the company you work for, said it should be. The CM says you "pay, or get lost". Great that's where you need to stop. You're a CM astroturfing your company's cheap cash grab. That's it man! You're done. None of this nonsense about staying true to D&D. I doubt you've ever played a single D&D campaign in your life.
How does it affect you "greatly"? I notice you claim this, but can't really explain it.
Please, I'll wait. How does someone else enjoying the game with a system you NEVER have to touch, affect you in any way?
I mean if you're gonna quit because of something as minor as other players being able to fix mistakes without paying money. Please don't hesitate to find the door, right now. You won't be missed, and neither will the ten or so people who agree with you.
Equal to vandalism?...Are you trolling? I don't think I've ever seen anyone take such a ridiculous stance in my life, and I read Fundies Say the Darndest Things.
This game has made so many concessions to the mmorpg format, but somehow this would just be too much for you? D&D is all about flexibility, and making the game your own.
Even every edition of the D&D Players Guides and Dungeon Masters Guilds encourage people to play what they find fun. It's all up to your DM. thats the beauty of D&D and something sadly, that is lost on you. Your limited preconception of what make D&D, D&D. If a DM allows respects, ta dah D&D has respecs.
It seems to me, that any and all concessions to the PnP game are acceptable to you, as long as your company decided they were justified.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
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championchains03Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
Whether or not there are unlimited respecs in the game effects me. Greatly.
It's something I would leave over. And I know others would too.
You honestly don't think for every person who thinks this way, there are legions who would leave or never join to begin with without respec limitations relaxed? Stupid little limitations like this are what keep games like Neverwinter from ever reaching the levels of success and popularity you see in games like WoW.
I would GLADLY pay a monthly membership for conveniences like a dual spec function. Even respecs purchased with in-game gold. And I would still shell out cash for things like vanity armor and weapons, mounts and whatnot.
Some of us agree with no respec, but concessions have to be made for the mmo experience. With much reservation, I accept the respec, and you better believe it should be hard to get.
i would love to get a free respec at lv 40 and 1 at level 60.
New people do misstakes. could be a missclick that i did yesterday that wasnt to funny.
Tip: dont dubble click the freaking spec tree ^^,
Comments
(other than that, yes)
Except that this isn't really an open beta. It's a launch tagged as open beta to keep the players complaints and expectations to a minimum.
the game isn't even finished how u gonna tell me its a release
On topic: how this can even be considered ok to not be able to respec easily is beyond idiotic.
using the argument that because you cant do it in pnp dnd is also moronic.
This is a MMORPG based very loosely on the ruleset of pnp blah blah.
im an idiot yet all you can say is "you're an idiot" without providing a valid argument lmao thats funny, you tried though and thats all that counts i guess
True. Its a 'soft launch'. It's simply a period where the company shows off their product but with an added 'grace period' to write off all poor performance. It simply provides a defensive argument to die hard fans, desperately looking to write off any and all complaints.
This game isn't changing based on reports of feedback. Hell CBT is when major game changes occur, and Cryptic/PWE reduced that period to a few publicity stunt weekends. Cryptic has always ignored feedback, and criticism, so I don't understand why anyone uses 'beta' as an excuse. Cryptic doesn't use betas the same way other companies do.
Take Gazillion, they have a much smaller budget, and much more to lose with Marvel Heroes. But their CBT and sales practices have changed based on player feedback. They were going to stop selling heroes in the cash shop directly, and start selling them randomly (like lock boxes for characters. Player feedback was unanimous, and in less than a week the CM had taken our concerns back to the CEO/development team and negotiated a fix that pleased everyone.
You probably won't see that here.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
No, we just understand what open beta for this game actually means. A soft launch. Anyone who has played PWE or most free to play game, knows that OBT is an open house for the finalized game, and that very little will actually change. Closed beta is where major changes usually occur, and this game did CBT poorly.
Subject to change? Yes. Possibility of actually changing? Very little.
and if so much of this game is in flux as you assume? Then why charge for repecs at all? Shouldn't they be free until abilities are fully developed? Or at the very least explained fully? If this was a transitory beta period, they wouldn't be taking money to change decisions based on systems still in flux.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
In a game where it's impossible to plan ahead properly, they advocate planning your build ahead of time without any leeway given for mistakes.
Absolutely disgusting vitriol coming from people that clearly don't understand how detrimental no respecs (or excessively expensive) can be to an MMO. You're fine to have your opinion on it, but why does it have to be so toxic and with a condescending attitude? With the constant "IF THIS WAS MY TABLETOP" irrelevant analogies?
The fact is that it is not possible to 'pay attention to your choices' is going over so many people's heads it upsets me. The most hardcore and diehard people in this topic are most likely the people who are actually going to be negatively impacted by their choices. Perhaps you simply won't care that your build is inefficient, but if you truly believe it's possible to make an efficient build in your first leveling experience with any class, you're deluded.
The PNP mindset has no place in an MMO. This isn't a tabletop, it's an MMORPG. It's a simple fact that needs to be accepted before you even form a single opinion on this game. Asking a player to invest 20-60 hours of effort for the same class to have separate PvP and PvE builds? Is that even a serious opinion?
I'm aware my own post contains some of the rude/condescending tone I warned about, and I apologize, but it's very important for an MMO to develop a strong 'hardcore' community for it to survive. It's a smaller portion than the casual community, but a large element that advances the metagame significantly further and faster than the casual portion. Each group of players are necessary for a successful MMO, and without 'relatively available' respecs the hardcore community is less likely to develop in any real way.
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
The value of servers tends to be completely determined by the top 2-3 guilds. Granted with the small group size of the content it might become a larger number of guilds buy the % of players should be about the same. Its sort of like real life in a way where the top 1% of a country usually determines the standard of living for everyone else.
If it because to expensive for anyone but the p2p players to excel in the top 1% then there is a problem with the game that should be fixed.
One reason WoW is so successful is because the player base has so much information from theorycrafters and players who experiment, do the math and break everything down and make it understandable for other players. These theorycrafters are basically the d&d player manuals for the mmo world. If there was a dollar amount attached to each time a theorycrafter tried to experiment, WoW likely wouldn't have been as successful.
Well said. Truly.
For ALL OF YOU. I am well aware this is not a tabletop game. That doesn't matter.
Some semblance to D&D has to be kept though. Touting a flag that this is an MMO so throw the D&D out and bring in full fledged MMO...it's wrong. WRONG.
I don't want respects. I'd rather have people plan their build ahead of time. That's my preference.
But my offer, as a compromise, has and always will be respecs are there if you need them. I don't care how they are limited but they need to be limited.
I don't care if they're 5 dollars or once per month quests. Either sounds fine to me.
But free respects even once per week is too common in my books, but even that I would live with.
End result is I am being very reasonable in my opinion. I'm not saying make this game PnP. If I was I'd be writing a whole lot differently.
But this isn't just an MMO. At will respecs are out of the question.
Both communities can compromise and enjoy the game. You can't have no respecs. I would prefer it but you can't.
But you also can't make a D&D game give unlimited at will respecs. Period.
As someone who theorycrafted in WoW it will actually be fairly difficult in this game to output numbers for some classes. On the bosses I have tanked on my guardian its entirely possible to avoid all/most of the damage of a boss which devalues traditional mitigation and leaves room for a more damage oriented build. Mechanical execution is going to be more important and its hard to factor that into an equation since it isn't restricted by measurable numbers.
This game has unlimited respecs.
You just have to pay cash for them. So why aren't you running back to your bosses, and suggesting that respecs be payed for in gold, but you can only do it once a month?
I can drop a wad of cash and buy a stack of respecs and everything you said is null and void.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
a. lack of information on skills/feats to properly plan a build
b. lack of resources on endgame stats (value of stats, what endgame stats mean for your class, the value for specific specs) and how it interacts with everything else
c. tooltips not properly updating to reflect feat values
d. zen requirement for power respecs
and probably some other ones!
But the thing that arises from them, and has impact on why respeccing is so important, is that it is currently not possible to expect any player to plan a build in advance at the moment. There aren't even functioning talent calculators yet.
It is my opinion that cheap respecs greatly enhance a game. WoW has a significant theorycrafting community that legitimately change the way WoW works. People will argue that it is unfortunate that the prevalence of theorycrafting (and it is seriously prevalent with the ability to calculate DPS in a simulated encounter without even running the game and with the ability to change settings on a gear or talent levle) people are not only expected to run optimal builds, it is expected by the developers and tuned to those builds. However, that only impacts the community of hardcore players. Casual players will be unaffected.
ambisinisterr, thankfully you aren't rude about your opinion and offer some concession. But for the people advocating available respecs it's difficult to understand why someone would care about what another person is able to do with their skill points when it doesn't affect them in any way.
Perhaps the availability in WoW is a bit too free, but it brings up an important point. What is more important to you?
Being able to find what you enjoy in a game, and have your fun derived from that?
or
Living with your choices because that's how it should be?
Encounters such as this exist in some form or another for the most part in WoW as well. However, that isn't a valid comparison for a few key reasons.
The first is that WoW is designed such that, in raiding, tank DPS is irrelevant (it is merely a bonus when pushing new content). Because of this, tanks are never forced to itemize to maximize DPS at the expense of surivability.
The other is that tanks are able to theorycraft pure survivability. You don't need to see a specific encounters damage to calculate your effective survivability for the vast majority of encounters. In the situations where you need to maximize survivability in that way, it's typically done by simply bringing another class to tank because that different tanks mechanics may be more favorable for the type of damage that needs to be mitigated.
If you could have a dual talent spec that was limited to specifically PvP/PvE, and got something like 1 free respec at 60, I'd probably be a lot less upset.
On the other hand, hard respecs do give a certain character to players within a guild. For instance cleric-x is a good pvp healer, cleric-y is a good pve healer or tank such and such handles multiple mob encounters better and so forth. But that also means that x or y will be left out of certain content for faster progress.
So it's a bit of a sensitive issue, but my proposal is to definitely be allowed a free respec at level cap because no one can predict the skill balance or even which aspect of the game they will delve into more at end game. Other than that paying $$ to respec at whim is quite off putting as far as balance goes. A firm but fair system of being able to respec on a weekly basis or with a gold cost that will increase or decrease every time based on how often you do it (like in old school wow), would be preferable.
That's my 2 cents anyway, sorry for the wall of text
I apologize for being so angry. But people who make it their business, preaching joyless systems that prevent something that would make the game more enjoyable to a LOT of people, that does not affect them at all, in a GAME, infuriate me.
If this affected their gameplay, I'd understand. But it really doesn't. Especially here in this case, since it really isn't harder to respec, just costly. Its a limit imposed strictly to make money.
I'd have no problem putting a limit on respecs. Putting a cool down on them, or making the gold cost higher each subsequent respec until a cap is reached. Something that doesn't require a month+ of daily grinding, or a nickle and diming cash shop purchase.
I have no problem compromising.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
For those of you still championing this "Respecs make the game less rewarding" nonsense, you people are either delusional or ignorant. You simply cannot make an informed decision on what constitutes an effective end-game build when you first start playing. Given this limitation, why should people be penalized for it? Many tooltips are either incredibly ambiguous, or downright misleading in how they explain effects; this makes it amazingly easy to sink valuable points into feats that do literally nothing beneficial for you.
As Direcrow has stated previously, having a convenient respec would not adversely effect you in any way shape or form. You guys would be more than welcome to ignore the system for whatever reasons you may have, and it wouldn't cause you any emotional or physical harm.
You would still be able to fly your "I'm a virtual hardass" flag.
Additionally, since so many of you are so confident that the game is still in beta, wouldn't it make sense for Cryptic to allow an infinite number of respecs. From a software testing standpoint, nothing would be better than to receive free tester feedback on any strange problems that may arise in certain builds.
Saying that having a flawed system somehow adds value to a video game (you know, those things you play to relax) is absurd to say the least.
It's something I would leave over. And I know others would too.
There's some things I can and do turn a blind eye to but respecs aren't one of them.
$5 is enough of a limit in my book. Either you don't respec commonly or you fund the game's development.
I wouldn't be against means to get them for free on occasion. I'm not going to say add it because I am happy where it is but I wouldn't care if occasional free respecs were added.
The game should have more information on the actual powers and mechanics. The game should be more forgiving for errors such as 4E's retraining mechanics.
Those are the problems that need to be addressed.
Those you have my full support and backing on.
Respec'ing at a whim shouldn't see the light of day in any game, though, and putting it in this game would be no different than vandalism in my eyes.
EDIT - Yes, jaz182. The respec token resets powers, feats and I believe the aditional ability point selections. Possibly some other things. It basically knocks you back to level 1.
Yep I remember the respec trials, although CoH did give you one for free at max level. Then you had to earn them, either in game, or buy them, if I remember correctly. COH had design choices and mechanics that were legendary. Wanna hold Neverwinter to a higher standard? Hold it against COH not WoW. Make Cryptic top themselves.
No, it really, really doesn't affect you at all.
There's a shock. The community manager draws the line, right where the company you work for, said it should be. The CM says you "pay, or get lost". Great that's where you need to stop. You're a CM astroturfing your company's cheap cash grab. That's it man! You're done. None of this nonsense about staying true to D&D. I doubt you've ever played a single D&D campaign in your life.
How does it affect you "greatly"? I notice you claim this, but can't really explain it.
Please, I'll wait. How does someone else enjoying the game with a system you NEVER have to touch, affect you in any way?
I mean if you're gonna quit because of something as minor as other players being able to fix mistakes without paying money. Please don't hesitate to find the door, right now. You won't be missed, and neither will the ten or so people who agree with you.
Equal to vandalism?...Are you trolling? I don't think I've ever seen anyone take such a ridiculous stance in my life, and I read Fundies Say the Darndest Things.
This game has made so many concessions to the mmorpg format, but somehow this would just be too much for you? D&D is all about flexibility, and making the game your own.
Even every edition of the D&D Players Guides and Dungeon Masters Guilds encourage people to play what they find fun. It's all up to your DM. thats the beauty of D&D and something sadly, that is lost on you. Your limited preconception of what make D&D, D&D. If a DM allows respects, ta dah D&D has respecs.
It seems to me, that any and all concessions to the PnP game are acceptable to you, as long as your company decided they were justified.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
You honestly don't think for every person who thinks this way, there are legions who would leave or never join to begin with without respec limitations relaxed? Stupid little limitations like this are what keep games like Neverwinter from ever reaching the levels of success and popularity you see in games like WoW.
I would GLADLY pay a monthly membership for conveniences like a dual spec function. Even respecs purchased with in-game gold. And I would still shell out cash for things like vanity armor and weapons, mounts and whatnot.
i would love to get a free respec at lv 40 and 1 at level 60.
New people do misstakes. could be a missclick that i did yesterday that wasnt to funny.
Tip: dont dubble click the freaking spec tree ^^,