I hope when this game goes live they make respecing free or not to require real money. As this game is based on 4th edition respecing there could be done anytime you lvled and it should be the same here. The respec coins are a huge money grab nothing more nothing less.
Change one point per lvl..as per 4ed rules..ok..I guess..Still would be lame imho but passable.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I hope when this game goes live they make respecing free or not to require real money. As this game is based on 4th edition respecing there could be done anytime you lvled and it should be the same here. The respec coins are a huge money grab nothing more nothing less.
That wasn't actually respec'ing.
More like a choosing to swap one previously chosen power. It was a limited forgiveness system.
But it's important to also realize:
You can gain 1.5x the number of powers in NW than PnP.
This is only at level up. When you reach level 30 in PnP you are done. No more swapping points around at all.
Neverwinter has a much more lenient system all in all. Costs money/AD but it allows you to do it at any point in time and doesn't limit your possible reselections.
I am all for making respecs less necessary due to lack of information or the inability to really understand what the late game benefits of certain actions would be...
But I will keep my staff planted firmly that respecs shouldn't be something that players choose to do daily or weekly just because they're facing a different dungeon or something of the sort. That's not the point of building a character in D&D.
I'm all for forgiveness. I'm all for quality information to accurately plan. But respec'ing for the sake of respec'ing should never see the light of day in any game, let alone a game which is labeled Dungeons and Dragons.
It has been to long that gamers have had to pay no attention to choices. This is very inline with a D&D game and I am glad that it is difficult to obtain a respec. I would feel better if you could not respec at all however.
Plus 2 more character slots is cheaper than one respec. Really I would think only people that should have a huge problem with respecs would be with classes that have very different specs for PvE and PvP content and would like to play both equally. Be again...buying 2 character slots is cheaper, might as well just reroll for your other favorite spec.
I am all for making respecs less necessary due to lack of information or the inability to really understand what the late game benefits of certain actions would be...
But I will keep my staff planted firmly that respecs shouldn't be something that players choose to do daily or weekly just because they're facing a different dungeon or something of the sort. That's not the point of building a character in D&D.
I agree with this attitude. Right now, the game is in beta, I have no idea what's going on. Endgame might be completely different, I could get behind a free respec per character. But I have no problem with respecs being pricey.
I am all for making respecs less necessary due to lack of information or the inability to really understand what the late game benefits of certain actions would be...
But I will keep my staff planted firmly that respecs shouldn't be something that players choose to do daily or weekly just because they're facing a different dungeon or something of the sort. That's not the point of building a character in D&D.
I'm all for forgiveness. I'm all for quality information to accurately plan. But respec'ing for the sake of respec'ing should never see the light of day in any game, let alone a game which is labeled Dungeons and Dragons.[/QUOTE]
This may cause some mmo players to choose not to play Neverwinter, I am ok with making it harder to do but make it like once a week or month not cash money.
well since the game is beta, and alot of the skill description/mechanics are misleading a beta respec would only be good sportsmanship. also i would agree with a beginning quest prior lv10 that gives you one, bound to char to allow you to respec if you make a mistake, or so you can have a levelling build, then respec to full tank, or a pvp build or something....games that charge for respecs usually do that, and not having that option alienates your players.
one per character only, is a fair, logical and valid compromise.
edit: one respec at 60 would be ok also...as long as its bound to character, non tradable, non sellable.
Neverwinter has a much more lenient system all in all. Costs money/AD but it allows you to do it at any point in time and doesn't limit your possible reselections.
...and i like to do volunteer work to help those in need, i just charge for my time and services.
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I am sure you know before I point it out that the logic you are using is a huge circle.
Who are you to insult those of us who like the fact respcing is taken seriously in this game ?
Answer my question. What business is it of yours?
You want to take it serious? Do it yourself.
Who am I? I'm someone who's life doesn't suck, to the point where I need to enforce an artificial requirement on others in a game, because my life has no real challenges.
I'm not selfish and self centered enough, to demand the level of hindsight bias and foresight you do, in something like putting points into skills in a God **** video game. As if what someone is doing with their character, affects you in any way.
So, being a typical selfish, self centered gamer than you are. Instead of putting forth an ounce of willpower of your own, to stick to your stat/power choices, you wish for everyone to have a harder time doing so.
But oh wait! It's not really hard is it? It just costs money. That's right, you're endorsing a system that punishes a misplaced powerpoint, with a cash purchase. Or maybe, you know, the company nerfs your build into the ground, and now you want to improve your character. But what do you care? Understanding any problem other than your own is beyond you.
As long as you don't have an issue with it, you can pretend you're "hardcore" for a day, right?
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
It has been to long that gamers have had to pay no attention to choices. This is very inline with a D&D game and I am glad that it is difficult to obtain a respec. I would feel better if you could not respec at all however.
Is it good that respecs need to be hard to obtain? yes.
But paying real money for a respec? Seriously, get out.
"Your story may not last forever; but it will exist forever"
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Character development has to go deeper than min-max.
There's no point in developing your character if you're respec'ing every 5 minutes.
I don't care if it's 5 dollars, 100 dollars or free once every thirty days.
Respec'ing shouldn't be a common occurrence. They should exist because you made a fatal error, not because you want to change things around for every single fight. That defeats the entire purpose of building and developing a character.
If you want to do it once per months I don't care. I'd love to see something like that added. But respec'ing being a five minute occurrence is the exact opposite of the core concept of developing characters.
There's room for improvement to prevent the need for character respecs...
But the answer isn't to hand respecs out like candy on Holloween.
and that would be all well and good, if this were something remotely important. Not whether or not your cartoon elf can throw a fireball or a lightning bolt.
How is respeccing not developing a character? Testing builds, seeing what you enjoy, seeing what works? How is that not development of your custom character? Making respeccs somehow rare in a game with constantly changing mechanics and multiple situations, isn't character development. Its making the game less flexible, and joyless to sate a few gamers egos'. But we all know that's not why NW does it.
You put so much artificial merit on something that, for most, is minor. The gameplay/quests/dungeons are the fun part. Shuffling around a few feats doesn't affect your character's story, or the flow of progress. It just makes something mechanical less intrusive.
If respecs were available for simple costs, you'd have every chance to ignore them, but somehow I really doubt you would.
and they shouldn't be a cash grab. Which is what this game does. This game's respec system has nothing to do with any faux-integrity you think respec costs should enforce. Its all about the money.
I don't need a respec every week. but this game uses it as nothing more than a sleazy money grab (yeah I know AD, because nothing sounds more fun, than grinding over a month for max possible AD, only to spend several hundred thousand to change one or two power points/feats)
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
and that would be all well and good, if this were something remotely important. Not whether or not your cartoon elf can throw a fireball or a lightning bolt.
How is respeccing not developing a character? Testing builds, seeing what you enjoy, seeing what works? How is that not development of your custom character? Making respeccs somehow rare in a game with constantly changing mechanics and multiple situations, isn't character development. Its making the game less flexible, and joyless to sate a few gamers egos'. But we all know that's not why NW does it.
You put so much artificial merit on something that, for most, is minor. The gameplay/quests/dungeons are the fun part. Shuffling around a few feats doesn't affect your character's story, or the flow of progress. It just makes something mechanical less intrusive.
If respecs were available for simple costs, you'd have every chance to ignore them, but somehow I really doubt you would.
and they shouldn't be a cash grab. Which is what this game does. This game's respec system has nothing to do with any faux-integrity you think respec costs should enforce. Its all about the money.
I don't need a respec every week. but this game uses it as nothing more than a sleazy money grab (yeah I know AD, because nothing sounds more fun, than grinding over a month for max possible AD, only to spend several hundred thousand to change one or two power points/feats)
+1 Agreed
Re-specs have become a staple of mmos, it's clear cryptic/pwe agree (or they wouldn't have them at all) they've simply chosen to throw them in the cash shop to milk more $ out of people.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited May 2013
Simply put because if there was one theme which ties everything about D&D together it would be:
Your choices matter.
In MMO's choices so often don't matter. Heck most of the choices in Neverwinter right now don't matter.
It's truly dumbed down so the hack and slash I don't want to care about choices crowd can blaze through without a care in the world.
That's why the pre-build set-up was ridiculed so much by fans of D&D. Choices are not only important but the choices have to matter. There were/are plenty of choices of powers to choose from but the bottom line is everybody else had the same available options handed to them. The players only chose what versions were active.
Well, now we have a system where not everybody in the same class has the same build. Not enough choices to truly diversify but it's a great foundation for future expansion.
The thing is the point becomes moot if everybody respecs left and right. The point in building a character is that YOU CHOOSE your build. You choose not only what you can do but you also choose what you can't do.
Specialization within classes is truly not an optional bit of D&D to ignore.
This game is at an odd front. We have a D&D Crowd which is used to choices mattering to an extreme level. Heck they're not only used to it they expect and demand it. And we have the MMO crowd who has gotten used to having rather mindless choices because everything can be solved with a magic eraser.
No matter which Cryptic chooses to favor in this debate there will be casualties.
I see so many posts stating that if this isn't MMO Player friendly with magic erasers they'll leave. Well the same goes true of the D&D players. Compromises must be made by both sides in order for this game to survive.
Respecs are there. I don't care if they are once per month limitations or funds for the game...
But they can't be unlimited hand-me-outs like other MMO's or there is no chance of keeping large portions of the D&D crowd here.
Simply put because if there was one theme which ties everything about D&D together it would be:
Your choices matter.
In MMO's choices so often don't matter. Heck most of the choices in Neverwinter right now don't matter.
It's truly dumbed down so the hack and slash I don't want to care about choices crowd can blaze through without a care in the world.
That's why the pre-build set-up was ridiculed so much by fans of D&D. Choices are not only important but the choices have to matter. There were/are plenty of choices of powers to choose from but the bottom line is everybody else had the same available options handed to them. The players only chose what versions were active.
Well, now we have a system where not everybody in the same class has the same build. Not enough choices to truly diversify but it's a great foundation for future expansion.
The thing is the point becomes moot if everybody respecs left and right. The point in building a character is that YOU CHOOSE your build. You choose not only what you can do but you also choose what you can't do.
Specialization within classes is truly not an optional bit of D&D to ignore.
This game is at an odd front. We have a D&D Crowd which is used to choices mattering to an extreme level. Heck they're not only used to it they expect and demand it. And we have the MMO crowd who has gotten used to having rather mindless choices because everything can be solved with a magic eraser.
No matter which Cryptic chooses to favor in this debate there will be casualties.
I see so many posts stating that if this isn't MMO Player friendly with magic erasers they'll leave. Well the same goes true of the D&D players. Compromises must be made by both sides in order for this game to survive.
Respecs are there. I don't care if they are once per month limitations or funds for the game...
But they can't be unlimited hand-me-outs like other MMO's or there is no chance of keeping large portions of the D&D crowd here.
You know what doesn't matter? What someone ELSE is doing with their skill points.
You are free to self-enforce whatever arbitrary stamp of importance on respecs all you like. Just don't try to push that on everyone else. It's important to you. So by all means, ignore respeccing and never touch the option.
As for casualties no matter what they do? Please. Choosing to allow people to respec by paying in game gold won't result in ANY "casualties" save maybe PWE's bottom line. Why? Because you'll always be free to:
- Choose to ignore them
- Buy something else from the cash shop
Whereas your opinion is that everyone needs to agree with you about what is "important" and have their gameplay evolve around it.
If I had my way, the only thing stopping you, would be your own willpower, and convictions.
And referencing D&D is a cop out, especially when so many flaws and differences, on these boards are defended with "It's not the P&P game" It's an MMO, not a D&D tabletop game. Your GM most likely isn't going to suddenly decide you're too strong, and halve the damage on your skills, or take away spells, etc.
You can try to justify it with all the claims of how important it is, and how it cheapens the character, but nothing cheapens a character like spending a few dollars, and changing it.
Imagine if your D&D GM charged you 6 bucks to change something on your character. How long would you be part of their campaign or gaming group?
Paying cash to change something? Cheapens the character.
Having background options that never effect gameplay, cheapens the character.
Choosing a race that is often maligned, and having everyone react the same no matter what, cheapens the character.
Getting a Phoenix or Nightmare out of a magic box you bought in an invisible mall? Cheapens the character.
So don't come at me with some argument, that this is all done to maintain some kind of integrity.
Cryptic doesn't give a **** about what cheapens the character.
Until your developers can present this game with the same level of transparency on mechanics/abilities, and provide as stable/unchanging a system as the P&P game, you treat this game like an mmorpg, not a tabletop game.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited May 2013
What cheapens games: not caring about your actions because you can use a magic eraser.
You're welcome to your opinion but in this situation it does matter.
It's sort of like saying add guns into the game and just choose not to use them. It matters.
Like I said it doesn't matter to me by what means respecs are limited. It serves my purpose either way.
Respec'ing as the MMO crowd would have it is not an acceptable thing to implement in a D&D game. This is both an MMO and Dungeons and Dragons game. We're willing to compromise, are you?
It has been to long that gamers have had to pay no attention to choices. This is very inline with a D&D game and I am glad that it is difficult to obtain a respec. I would feel better if you could not respec at all however.
The issue isn't that people have to pay attention to choices. It's that they're asked to make choices long before they understand the consequences.
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brollypopMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I feel like charging $ for a respec in current phase of the game is actually cheating players. The game is still in open beta, skill tooltips don't give enough information, there are no guides for classes yet, the classes that are implemented are barely a few % of possible class choices in D&D, game may and propably will change after a few weeks when people get end game gear and start crying buff me nerf rest, for god's sake at 30 lvl u get to choose one paragon path of the ... one possible, when they add other paragon paths will I also have to pay 5$ to change the one that was practicaly forced on me, are you out of your mind ?
And stop saying that getting respec is hard so it's good... Making people to pay for it doesn't make it hard ... I agree that there should be a cooldown, like a one respec per week and if someone wants to respec more he needs to pay. But right now it doesn't feel right, everytime they make some changes for balance it will seem like forcing people to pay just to have viable characters, do they really want to deal with the all the whining their gonna get each time they try to make a change ...
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What cheapens games: not caring about your actions because you can use a magic eraser.
You're welcome to your opinion but in this situation it does matter.
It's sort of like saying add guns into the game and just choose not to use them. It matters.
Like I said it doesn't matter to me by what means respecs are limited. It serves my purpose either way.
Respec'ing as the MMO crowd would have it is not an acceptable thing to implement in a D&D game. This is both an MMO and Dungeons and Dragons game. We're willing to compromise, are you?
For a D&D purist you don't seem to understand D&D at all. You do realize that guns were a part of D&D (rare as they may have been) since AD&D right? http://bit.ly/Yw8AZP
Wow you pretty much ignored every single argument I made too.
The assumption that just because you can change your character's stats, somehow means you don't care at all, is absolutely ludicrous and insulting. People change specs for all sorts of reasons. To try something new, to fix a mistake. Etc.
If they didn't care, as you so ignorantly put it. Why would they want to respec at all?!? They don't care! Respeccing means people care about their stats, not the other way around.
Its called suspension of disbelief.
The same suspension that goes into fires healing you, and buying a Phoenix off of an auction house, to running through the same dungeon to kill the same monster for fourth time in a single day for a pair of human sized boots that fell out of its corpse, with a Halforc named Sugartits, or xXSephirothXx or whatever. The same suspension that goes into learning new skills, by opening a magical, fourth wall breaking window and pressing a button.
I'll ask you ONE MORE TIME:
What do you care if someone does it? What business is it of yours?
Quit dodging this question.
Oh I'm sorry, and paying six dollars for that same magic change as many times as you can pay, is somehow less cheap?
This is a D&D MMO. Doing things that are acceptable in MMOS are acceptable in a D&D MMO. I don't see you complaining about any of the decidedly non-D&D type things, implemented for the sake of the format.
You took a basic amenity of mmorpgs, a product development evolution, and you turned it into a money grab. I'll bet only one out of one hundred people find easy respecs unenjoyable. You KNEW this, you knew how wanted they are, and saw the opportunity to make cheap change. Rather than making a lot of fluff items and selling those. You took a highly used game mechanic, and stuck a price tag on it.
Make no mistake, you didn't exchange cheapening for something better. You exchanged it for a money grab.
All your talk about cheapening things means NOTHING, as you still decided to cheapen it another way.
I'm totally willing to compromise, but when was the last time your company did?
You're not willing to compromise! What is your compromise? Grinding for more than a month? Thanks a bunch. Make it as unappealing as possible to drive sales. you could not give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> less about this game's integrity. Your lock boxes prove that much.
You say you don't care how its done, but its a moot point seeing as its done this way. I don't see you running back to the developers with this feedback, or talking about how you are, as if compromise is anywhere in your intentions.
What you really mean, is am I willing to shut up about it.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
0
clockwerkninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
and that would be all well and good, if this were something remotely important. Not whether or not your cartoon elf can throw a fireball or a lightning bolt.
How is respeccing not developing a character? Testing builds, seeing what you enjoy, seeing what works? How is that not development of your custom character? Making respeccs somehow rare in a game with constantly changing mechanics and multiple situations, isn't character development. Its making the game less flexible, and joyless to sate a few gamers egos'. But we all know that's not why NW does it.
You put so much artificial merit on something that, for most, is minor. The gameplay/quests/dungeons are the fun part. Shuffling around a few feats doesn't affect your character's story, or the flow of progress. It just makes something mechanical less intrusive.
If respecs were available for simple costs, you'd have every chance to ignore them, but somehow I really doubt you would.
and they shouldn't be a cash grab. Which is what this game does. This game's respec system has nothing to do with any faux-integrity you think respec costs should enforce. Its all about the money.
I don't need a respec every week. but this game uses it as nothing more than a sleazy money grab (yeah I know AD, because nothing sounds more fun, than grinding over a month for max possible AD, only to spend several hundred thousand to change one or two power points/feats)
You know as well as myself that if respecs were both cheap and easy to obtain ,every player would be expected to use them. Not only use them but be speced optimally for every singular situation..I do not want to play that game..
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
You know as well as myself that if respecs were both cheap and easy to obtain ,every player would be expected to use them. Not only use them but be speced optimally for every singular situation..I do not want to play that game..
I know as well as you do, that if respecs were easier, it would simply be an option. Like all games with easy respecs. I also know as well as you do, that you lack the willpower to stand by your convictions, in the face of having an alternative option.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
0
direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
'respeccing is not easy'
'insert 5 dollars, receive respec'
wat
Exactly. This has nothing to do with making respecs rare, or putting more thought into choices. Its about turning a common game mechanic into a cheap, lazy money making scheme.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
What cheapens games: not caring about your actions because you can use a magic eraser.
You're welcome to your opinion but in this situation it does matter.
It's sort of like saying add guns into the game and just choose not to use them. It matters.
Like I said it doesn't matter to me by what means respecs are limited. It serves my purpose either way.
Respec'ing as the MMO crowd would have it is not an acceptable thing to implement in a D&D game. This is both an MMO and Dungeons and Dragons game. We're willing to compromise, are you?
Every DM I've ever played under has allowed full character respecs. 4e had retraining, which was limited respeccing every level. Pathfinder is supposedly implementing a respec function in Ultimate Campaign. 3e's Player's Handbook 2 had retraining akin to 4e, IIRC.
Only a jerk thinks it's okay to not let his players change to something more fun when something on their character is lacking.
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clockwerkninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
'respeccing is not easy'
'insert 5 dollars, receive respec'
wat
Yea, we covered that ..."easy" would be intended to mean , you would have to consider the action. ..Splitting hairs is the first sign of a losing argument.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Every DM I've ever played under has allowed full character respecs. 4e had retraining, which was limited respeccing every level. Pathfinder is supposedly implementing a respec function in Ultimate Campaign. 3e's Player's Handbook 2 had retraining akin to 4e, IIRC.
Only a jerk thinks it's okay to not let his players change to something more fun when something on their character is lacking.
Its almost as if people play games to have fun! Not feel like a pro because they set their points perfectly the first time.
Also every GM I've ever had, worked with the players to make the game as enjoyable as possible.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
0
clockwerkninjaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I know as well as you do, that if respecs were easier, it would simply be an option. Like all games with easy respecs. I also know as well as you do, that you lack the willpower to stand by your convictions, in the face of having an alternative option.
If it were easier , and I still liked the game enough . I would probably use it because I play games within the framework presented.
What I do not do, is load a game, decide I like a few aspects of it. Then think to myself,"If I head over to the forums and QQ like a school girl, then I can get the game changed into the game I already enjoy playing"..Thus it feels like you have not really switched games at all..
LOL.
Of all the insulting and boasting you have done the last couple of days,you really are obvious. You only want to pwn sum nubz,and you gonna need to respec about 50 times before you get it right..
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
Yea, we covered that ..."easy" would be intended to mean , you would have to consider the action. ..Splitting hairs is the first sign of a losing argument.
The thing is that if you have sufficient disposable income or free time, you DON'T have to pay attention. It's the average player who's in trouble.
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yea, we covered that ..."easy" would be intended to mean , you would have to consider the action. ..Splitting hairs is the first sign of a losing argument.
Not splitting hairs. People with deep pockets won't hesitate. Neither will obsessive compulsives. Why not make money off of them, and make a system that makes players like you feel a pro? You know, like the people who feed PWE hundreds/thousands a month on games like PWI?
Also seeing as this is an mmo, there is a chance that as little as a week from now, half your abilities can be completely reworked around your immaculate set up. Or maybe you just feel like trying something else with your character.
Say goodbye to testing builds, and trying out new things, experimenting. This system you endorse, is pretty much going to make people afraid to try anything, that isn't in an existing build. Its going to penalize people who aren't psychic, or punish people because something they chose for any reason, is no longer viable because of a patch.
Sometimes games include a feature for the sake of, *GASP* FUN! Not everything needs to be some hardcore, hardass BS. Like some funsquito making sure the game isn't too enjoyable.
I know I can't get enough of the paranoia, and fear of potentially messing up my character because I find out the feats I choose aren't as effective as they imply, or that the vague tooltip on the abilities I chose failed to explain how worthless they are.
That's FUN!
Nothing better than second guessing all of my decisions in a game I play, to unwind and take my mind off of all the important decisions I second guess in real life! Nah, better that a game be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about them, too.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
Put a time limit on purchasing respec tokens to help even the play field for casuals and hardcores. Also make an epic quest line that rewards a respec in game doable once every 2 weeks or 1 month.
This would accommodate every different kind of player. Would lessen the feeling of Pay2Win, while retaining the forethought and strategizing of making character builds.
win win right? or am i missing something?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Put a time limit on purchasing respec tokens to help even the play field for casuals and hardcores. Also make an epic quest line that rewards a respec in game doable once every 2 weeks or 1 month.
This would accommodate every different kind of player. Would lessen the feeling of Pay2Win, while retaining the forethought and strategizing of making character builds.
win win right? or am i missing something?
Good idea, and it would solve the implied issue of cheaping the process. But they would make less money, and that's why it is like it is. Cryptic/PWE has never cared about making the respecs cost money for any reason other than because they know people do it a lot, and that mistakes are easy to make in these types of games.
They could easily limit it, while keeping the costs low, but they won't.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
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championchains03Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited May 2013
All it comes down to is a money trap. Plain and simple. It takes too long to raise the astral diamonds to support the amount of respecs min/max/mmo players need on a daily basis (without a dual spec option). The people it hurts most are tanks and healers. They're the ones who need dps specs for soloing, survivability specs for daily pvp and then their main pve spec. DPS classes can more or less manage without as much need to respec. So the backbone classes are the ones shouldering the majority of the cash shop burden (if you need to respec at least once every day to do all your dailies, there's no way it will ever be possible to earn enough astral diamonds to pay for all the respec tokens needed...thus, forced to either be subpar in half the game, or fork over cash). Chase away your tanks and healers and you have no dungeon runs.
Stop arguing that it's because pnp doesn't have respecs. In pnp, you don't solo grind through quests then jump into pvp and then tank/heal dungeons for your buddies. You have a set role and there's never a need to alter your spec in the least. It cannot be said enough: THIS IS NOT PNP D&D
Not even remotely close.
Stop using the argument that it can't be done in pnp, so it doesn't belong in an mmo. Drow aren't a common race in pnp, don't see basement dwellers here arguing to limit the number of Drow and Tieflings per server. Pnp focuses most on rp and decision making. This game is 95% combat.
What it comes down to is this game needs a dual spec function. I'd willingly pay a $15 monthly sub to have conveniences like dual specs. This game should model their cash shop after EQII. Load it with vanity items and things like foundry crafted player housing and guild halls and cash shop furniture items to fill them. I don't even want to think about how much cash i spent on vanity armor/mounts and housing items in EQII, but i felt like I was getting my moneys worth because the features of the game I felt like were crucial were already included and didn't require even more payout.
This is so clearly a pay-to-win game. The people forking out the cash will level fastest, level their tradeskills the fastest, have the highest level enchants and will be able to afford more respecs to min/max for every situation. It's not about retaining an "authentic d&d experience" as the community moderator claims. This game breaks and disregards so many aspects of d&d and lore that I'm surprised wizards of the coast gave them a copyright. The only thing cryptic and perfect world want authentic is your credit card info when you're buying features that are standard in every mmo on the market.
Comments
Change one point per lvl..as per 4ed rules..ok..I guess..Still would be lame imho but passable.
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
That wasn't actually respec'ing.
More like a choosing to swap one previously chosen power. It was a limited forgiveness system.
But it's important to also realize:
You can gain 1.5x the number of powers in NW than PnP.
This is only at level up. When you reach level 30 in PnP you are done. No more swapping points around at all.
Neverwinter has a much more lenient system all in all. Costs money/AD but it allows you to do it at any point in time and doesn't limit your possible reselections.
I am all for making respecs less necessary due to lack of information or the inability to really understand what the late game benefits of certain actions would be...
But I will keep my staff planted firmly that respecs shouldn't be something that players choose to do daily or weekly just because they're facing a different dungeon or something of the sort. That's not the point of building a character in D&D.
I'm all for forgiveness. I'm all for quality information to accurately plan. But respec'ing for the sake of respec'ing should never see the light of day in any game, let alone a game which is labeled Dungeons and Dragons.
I agree with this attitude. Right now, the game is in beta, I have no idea what's going on. Endgame might be completely different, I could get behind a free respec per character. But I have no problem with respecs being pricey.
But I will keep my staff planted firmly that respecs shouldn't be something that players choose to do daily or weekly just because they're facing a different dungeon or something of the sort. That's not the point of building a character in D&D.
I'm all for forgiveness. I'm all for quality information to accurately plan. But respec'ing for the sake of respec'ing should never see the light of day in any game, let alone a game which is labeled Dungeons and Dragons.[/QUOTE]
This may cause some mmo players to choose not to play Neverwinter, I am ok with making it harder to do but make it like once a week or month not cash money.
one per character only, is a fair, logical and valid compromise.
edit: one respec at 60 would be ok also...as long as its bound to character, non tradable, non sellable.
...and i like to do volunteer work to help those in need, i just charge for my time and services.
Answer my question. What business is it of yours?
You want to take it serious? Do it yourself.
Who am I? I'm someone who's life doesn't suck, to the point where I need to enforce an artificial requirement on others in a game, because my life has no real challenges.
I'm not selfish and self centered enough, to demand the level of hindsight bias and foresight you do, in something like putting points into skills in a God **** video game. As if what someone is doing with their character, affects you in any way.
So, being a typical selfish, self centered gamer than you are. Instead of putting forth an ounce of willpower of your own, to stick to your stat/power choices, you wish for everyone to have a harder time doing so.
But oh wait! It's not really hard is it? It just costs money. That's right, you're endorsing a system that punishes a misplaced powerpoint, with a cash purchase. Or maybe, you know, the company nerfs your build into the ground, and now you want to improve your character. But what do you care? Understanding any problem other than your own is beyond you.
As long as you don't have an issue with it, you can pretend you're "hardcore" for a day, right?
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
Is it good that respecs need to be hard to obtain? yes.
But paying real money for a respec? Seriously, get out.
and that would be all well and good, if this were something remotely important. Not whether or not your cartoon elf can throw a fireball or a lightning bolt.
How is respeccing not developing a character? Testing builds, seeing what you enjoy, seeing what works? How is that not development of your custom character? Making respeccs somehow rare in a game with constantly changing mechanics and multiple situations, isn't character development. Its making the game less flexible, and joyless to sate a few gamers egos'. But we all know that's not why NW does it.
You put so much artificial merit on something that, for most, is minor. The gameplay/quests/dungeons are the fun part. Shuffling around a few feats doesn't affect your character's story, or the flow of progress. It just makes something mechanical less intrusive.
If respecs were available for simple costs, you'd have every chance to ignore them, but somehow I really doubt you would.
and they shouldn't be a cash grab. Which is what this game does. This game's respec system has nothing to do with any faux-integrity you think respec costs should enforce. Its all about the money.
I don't need a respec every week. but this game uses it as nothing more than a sleazy money grab (yeah I know AD, because nothing sounds more fun, than grinding over a month for max possible AD, only to spend several hundred thousand to change one or two power points/feats)
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
+1 Agreed
Re-specs have become a staple of mmos, it's clear cryptic/pwe agree (or they wouldn't have them at all) they've simply chosen to throw them in the cash shop to milk more $ out of people.
CS issue? Check this thread first! | Reporting exploits: Done Right
Your choices matter.
In MMO's choices so often don't matter. Heck most of the choices in Neverwinter right now don't matter.
It's truly dumbed down so the hack and slash I don't want to care about choices crowd can blaze through without a care in the world.
That's why the pre-build set-up was ridiculed so much by fans of D&D. Choices are not only important but the choices have to matter. There were/are plenty of choices of powers to choose from but the bottom line is everybody else had the same available options handed to them. The players only chose what versions were active.
Well, now we have a system where not everybody in the same class has the same build. Not enough choices to truly diversify but it's a great foundation for future expansion.
The thing is the point becomes moot if everybody respecs left and right. The point in building a character is that YOU CHOOSE your build. You choose not only what you can do but you also choose what you can't do.
Specialization within classes is truly not an optional bit of D&D to ignore.
This game is at an odd front. We have a D&D Crowd which is used to choices mattering to an extreme level. Heck they're not only used to it they expect and demand it. And we have the MMO crowd who has gotten used to having rather mindless choices because everything can be solved with a magic eraser.
No matter which Cryptic chooses to favor in this debate there will be casualties.
I see so many posts stating that if this isn't MMO Player friendly with magic erasers they'll leave. Well the same goes true of the D&D players. Compromises must be made by both sides in order for this game to survive.
Respecs are there. I don't care if they are once per month limitations or funds for the game...
But they can't be unlimited hand-me-outs like other MMO's or there is no chance of keeping large portions of the D&D crowd here.
You know what doesn't matter? What someone ELSE is doing with their skill points.
You are free to self-enforce whatever arbitrary stamp of importance on respecs all you like. Just don't try to push that on everyone else. It's important to you. So by all means, ignore respeccing and never touch the option.
As for casualties no matter what they do? Please. Choosing to allow people to respec by paying in game gold won't result in ANY "casualties" save maybe PWE's bottom line. Why? Because you'll always be free to:
- Choose to ignore them
- Buy something else from the cash shop
Whereas your opinion is that everyone needs to agree with you about what is "important" and have their gameplay evolve around it.
If I had my way, the only thing stopping you, would be your own willpower, and convictions.
And referencing D&D is a cop out, especially when so many flaws and differences, on these boards are defended with "It's not the P&P game" It's an MMO, not a D&D tabletop game. Your GM most likely isn't going to suddenly decide you're too strong, and halve the damage on your skills, or take away spells, etc.
You can try to justify it with all the claims of how important it is, and how it cheapens the character, but nothing cheapens a character like spending a few dollars, and changing it.
Imagine if your D&D GM charged you 6 bucks to change something on your character. How long would you be part of their campaign or gaming group?
Paying cash to change something? Cheapens the character.
Having background options that never effect gameplay, cheapens the character.
Choosing a race that is often maligned, and having everyone react the same no matter what, cheapens the character.
Getting a Phoenix or Nightmare out of a magic box you bought in an invisible mall? Cheapens the character.
So don't come at me with some argument, that this is all done to maintain some kind of integrity.
Cryptic doesn't give a **** about what cheapens the character.
Until your developers can present this game with the same level of transparency on mechanics/abilities, and provide as stable/unchanging a system as the P&P game, you treat this game like an mmorpg, not a tabletop game.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
You're welcome to your opinion but in this situation it does matter.
It's sort of like saying add guns into the game and just choose not to use them. It matters.
Like I said it doesn't matter to me by what means respecs are limited. It serves my purpose either way.
Respec'ing as the MMO crowd would have it is not an acceptable thing to implement in a D&D game. This is both an MMO and Dungeons and Dragons game. We're willing to compromise, are you?
And stop saying that getting respec is hard so it's good... Making people to pay for it doesn't make it hard ... I agree that there should be a cooldown, like a one respec per week and if someone wants to respec more he needs to pay. But right now it doesn't feel right, everytime they make some changes for balance it will seem like forcing people to pay just to have viable characters, do they really want to deal with the all the whining their gonna get each time they try to make a change ...
For a D&D purist you don't seem to understand D&D at all. You do realize that guns were a part of D&D (rare as they may have been) since AD&D right? http://bit.ly/Yw8AZP
Wow you pretty much ignored every single argument I made too.
The assumption that just because you can change your character's stats, somehow means you don't care at all, is absolutely ludicrous and insulting. People change specs for all sorts of reasons. To try something new, to fix a mistake. Etc.
If they didn't care, as you so ignorantly put it. Why would they want to respec at all?!? They don't care! Respeccing means people care about their stats, not the other way around.
Its called suspension of disbelief.
The same suspension that goes into fires healing you, and buying a Phoenix off of an auction house, to running through the same dungeon to kill the same monster for fourth time in a single day for a pair of human sized boots that fell out of its corpse, with a Halforc named Sugartits, or xXSephirothXx or whatever. The same suspension that goes into learning new skills, by opening a magical, fourth wall breaking window and pressing a button.
I'll ask you ONE MORE TIME:
What do you care if someone does it? What business is it of yours?
Quit dodging this question.
Oh I'm sorry, and paying six dollars for that same magic change as many times as you can pay, is somehow less cheap?
This is a D&D MMO. Doing things that are acceptable in MMOS are acceptable in a D&D MMO. I don't see you complaining about any of the decidedly non-D&D type things, implemented for the sake of the format.
You took a basic amenity of mmorpgs, a product development evolution, and you turned it into a money grab. I'll bet only one out of one hundred people find easy respecs unenjoyable. You KNEW this, you knew how wanted they are, and saw the opportunity to make cheap change. Rather than making a lot of fluff items and selling those. You took a highly used game mechanic, and stuck a price tag on it.
Make no mistake, you didn't exchange cheapening for something better. You exchanged it for a money grab.
All your talk about cheapening things means NOTHING, as you still decided to cheapen it another way.
I'm totally willing to compromise, but when was the last time your company did?
You're not willing to compromise! What is your compromise? Grinding for more than a month? Thanks a bunch. Make it as unappealing as possible to drive sales. you could not give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> less about this game's integrity. Your lock boxes prove that much.
You say you don't care how its done, but its a moot point seeing as its done this way. I don't see you running back to the developers with this feedback, or talking about how you are, as if compromise is anywhere in your intentions.
What you really mean, is am I willing to shut up about it.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
You know as well as myself that if respecs were both cheap and easy to obtain ,every player would be expected to use them. Not only use them but be speced optimally for every singular situation..I do not want to play that game..
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
'insert 5 dollars, receive respec'
wat
I know as well as you do, that if respecs were easier, it would simply be an option. Like all games with easy respecs. I also know as well as you do, that you lack the willpower to stand by your convictions, in the face of having an alternative option.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
Exactly. This has nothing to do with making respecs rare, or putting more thought into choices. Its about turning a common game mechanic into a cheap, lazy money making scheme.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
Only a jerk thinks it's okay to not let his players change to something more fun when something on their character is lacking.
Yea, we covered that ..."easy" would be intended to mean , you would have to consider the action. ..Splitting hairs is the first sign of a losing argument.
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
Its almost as if people play games to have fun! Not feel like a pro because they set their points perfectly the first time.
Also every GM I've ever had, worked with the players to make the game as enjoyable as possible.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
If it were easier , and I still liked the game enough . I would probably use it because I play games within the framework presented.
What I do not do, is load a game, decide I like a few aspects of it. Then think to myself,"If I head over to the forums and QQ like a school girl, then I can get the game changed into the game I already enjoy playing"..Thus it feels like you have not really switched games at all..
LOL.
Of all the insulting and boasting you have done the last couple of days,you really are obvious. You only want to pwn sum nubz,and you gonna need to respec about 50 times before you get it right..
Quote Originally Posted by roents
It's an "open beta" that can't be wiped even in the midst of multiple economy destroying exploits. FUN
Not splitting hairs. People with deep pockets won't hesitate. Neither will obsessive compulsives. Why not make money off of them, and make a system that makes players like you feel a pro? You know, like the people who feed PWE hundreds/thousands a month on games like PWI?
Also seeing as this is an mmo, there is a chance that as little as a week from now, half your abilities can be completely reworked around your immaculate set up. Or maybe you just feel like trying something else with your character.
Say goodbye to testing builds, and trying out new things, experimenting. This system you endorse, is pretty much going to make people afraid to try anything, that isn't in an existing build. Its going to penalize people who aren't psychic, or punish people because something they chose for any reason, is no longer viable because of a patch.
Sometimes games include a feature for the sake of, *GASP* FUN! Not everything needs to be some hardcore, hardass BS. Like some funsquito making sure the game isn't too enjoyable.
I know I can't get enough of the paranoia, and fear of potentially messing up my character because I find out the feats I choose aren't as effective as they imply, or that the vague tooltip on the abilities I chose failed to explain how worthless they are.
That's FUN!
Nothing better than second guessing all of my decisions in a game I play, to unwind and take my mind off of all the important decisions I second guess in real life! Nah, better that a game be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about them, too.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
This would accommodate every different kind of player. Would lessen the feeling of Pay2Win, while retaining the forethought and strategizing of making character builds.
win win right? or am i missing something?
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
Good idea, and it would solve the implied issue of cheaping the process. But they would make less money, and that's why it is like it is. Cryptic/PWE has never cared about making the respecs cost money for any reason other than because they know people do it a lot, and that mistakes are easy to make in these types of games.
They could easily limit it, while keeping the costs low, but they won't.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
Stop arguing that it's because pnp doesn't have respecs. In pnp, you don't solo grind through quests then jump into pvp and then tank/heal dungeons for your buddies. You have a set role and there's never a need to alter your spec in the least. It cannot be said enough:
THIS IS NOT PNP D&D
Not even remotely close.
Stop using the argument that it can't be done in pnp, so it doesn't belong in an mmo. Drow aren't a common race in pnp, don't see basement dwellers here arguing to limit the number of Drow and Tieflings per server. Pnp focuses most on rp and decision making. This game is 95% combat.
What it comes down to is this game needs a dual spec function. I'd willingly pay a $15 monthly sub to have conveniences like dual specs. This game should model their cash shop after EQII. Load it with vanity items and things like foundry crafted player housing and guild halls and cash shop furniture items to fill them. I don't even want to think about how much cash i spent on vanity armor/mounts and housing items in EQII, but i felt like I was getting my moneys worth because the features of the game I felt like were crucial were already included and didn't require even more payout.
This is so clearly a pay-to-win game. The people forking out the cash will level fastest, level their tradeskills the fastest, have the highest level enchants and will be able to afford more respecs to min/max for every situation. It's not about retaining an "authentic d&d experience" as the community moderator claims. This game breaks and disregards so many aspects of d&d and lore that I'm surprised wizards of the coast gave them a copyright. The only thing cryptic and perfect world want authentic is your credit card info when you're buying features that are standard in every mmo on the market.