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Clerics get shafted in PvP :(

bunzagabunzaga Member Posts: 52
edited June 2013 in PvE Discussion
** EDIT: Hey thanks for all the great replies and feedback guys. I realize now, that I am playing the class properly, but that I just need to give myself more time and practice. See you all in the Arena!

At least I do in the level 19 ones. I cast my Healing Word on my team mates as often as it is up, I cast Astral Seal on every enemy I can. Sometimes I use Searing Light and throw down Hallowed Ground when we are fighting over a node. I use Sun Burst in Divine mode if I get swarmed, or just to get enemies off nodes or to help heal people if Healing Word is down.

I get lots of assists, but hardly any kills, and more often than not, my deaths are way more than my kills.

So what is the point of even healing and supporting your team, when it looks like you didn't even do anything at the end of the match? I mean... I'm working my *** off, but nothing to show for it.

Am I missing something here?

Also, it seems that just about every other class can kick my *** 1v1... not a very fun experience so far. :( Especially Rogues and Wizards.
Post edited by bunzaga on
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Comments

  • mazzeimazzei Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Capturing points are worth much more than kills, so you shouldn't be focusing you kills, your should be focusing on preventing your teammates from dying. They're the ones who should deal damage, not you.

    Stay on the node when it's captured and you get 300 free points.

    As a GWF at lv 19 my job was to mostly trim away my opponent's HP and peel for the squishiest targets to DPS them. I got off nodes plenty of times and so I ended up as the worst score of my team, and often with the most deaths, but a glaringly high assist count.

    It's worth it if you win the game in the end.
  • horsepantshorsepants Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    In pretty much every MMO ever the support or healers get shafted, and they often get blamed. You just have to really like the role to enjoy it, otherwise you'll give up because you don't lead the scoreboard like a rogue. My best advice is to play with friends, they will appreciate your support.

    And yes, you are missing something here. You are level 19, not 60.
  • bloodytrailzbloodytrailz Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I almost don't consider this a legitimate thread, but i'll bite.

    You. Are. A. Cleric.

    "I throw out all my heals, and i don't get kills" < Seems pretty reasonable.
    "I can't outdps pure DPS classes or win 1v1s" < And you shouldn't be able to when you come into a BG packing skills that deal NO damage.
    "I have more deaths than kills" < Again, CLERIC. You heal, not kill. You are a healer, you are public enemy #1, people will gun for you.
    "Working my *** off, but nothing to show for it" < You have assists to show for it. Thats what a healer does, he assists. If you did your job well, you have a win to show for it as well.

    That's about it, overall based on the tone of your post/attitude i really don't think playing a support-y class is for you, try a rogue or a wizard and it might be more up your alley.
  • bunzagabunzaga Member Posts: 52
    edited May 2013
    horsepants wrote: »
    And yes, you are missing something here. You are level 19, not 60.

    I was hoping this was the case.

    Thanks for the advice mazzei. Yes, I do tend to stay off the node, and case from afar. I'll try to get into the mix a lil more.

    What are the pvp oriented abilities and talents I should be catering to?
  • necromyreznecromyrez Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Yes, what you're missing is...clerics in this game don't primary heal. They supplement heal. Change your sunburst to chains, and pick up your beam of light. Keep healing word. Toss a heal on a teammate, then dps the **** out of his target, you get MUCH better results.

    You can't outheal dmg in this game as a cleric, it won't happen, especially in the later game where people are hitting for 4 times as much as you can heal with the full heal of your HoT, not to mention by the time you get to the last tick of that HoT they can do that big hit again, making basically a 8:1 ratio of dmg to heal.

    However, using your healing as supplemental to your high dmg if you spec right....you're a beast. My cle is lvl 42, I have about a 90'ish% win record in pvp. Later you'll get some heals that actually do the normal heal + %of target's hp, that's when you can try full support healing if you want, but never until then.

    Good luck man, stick with it. Think of yourself as a caster DPS that has a little more survivability with the secondary healing. :)
  • capetorialforumcapetorialforum Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    horsepants wrote: »
    In pretty much every MMO ever the support or healers get shafted, and they often get blamed. You just have to really like the role to enjoy it, otherwise you'll give up because you don't lead the scoreboard like a rogue. My best advice is to play with friends, they will appreciate your support.

    And yes, you are missing something here. You are level 19, not 60.


    Truer words never spoken. I played Rift as a bubble healer (doesn't get logged on the score menu), ****-talking all the time in my direction. Was crazy. Honestly, I feel PvP should always be more like PvE where even though it isn't so fair to experienced players, a whole team gets only 1 score, or at least that if you group up, your team shares a score (so a healer can be guaranteed points). On SWTOR, which has a lot of shared features w/ this game this was a very, very terrible issue, much more so than in NW
  • mcwaffle777mcwaffle777 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    horsepants wrote: »
    In pretty much every MMO ever the support or healers get shafted, and they often get blamed. You just have to really like the role to enjoy it, otherwise you'll give up because you don't lead the scoreboard like a rogue. My best advice is to play with friends, they will appreciate your support.

    And yes, you are missing something here. You are level 19, not 60.

    Score board means nothing, besides the two x/1000 numbers. Rogues bring the least to the table of the 5 classes. I have won a game with our team having 3 kills to there 45.
  • necromyreznecromyrez Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I almost don't consider this a legitimate thread, but i'll bite.

    You. Are. A. Cleric.

    "I throw out all my heals, and i don't get kills" < Seems pretty reasonable.
    "I can't outdps pure DPS classes or win 1v1s" < And you shouldn't be able to when you come into a BG packing skills that deal NO damage.
    "I have more deaths than kills" < Again, CLERIC. You heal, not kill. You are a healer, you are public enemy #1, people will gun for you.
    "Working my *** off, but nothing to show for it" < You have assists to show for it. Thats what a healer does, he assists. If you did your job well, you have a win to show for it as well.

    That's about it, overall based on the tone of your post/attitude i really don't think playing a support-y class is for you, try a rogue or a wizard and it might be more up your alley.

    This guy is a nub, don't listen to him. Clerics are pvp beasts.
  • bunzagabunzaga Member Posts: 52
    edited May 2013
    I almost don't consider this a legitimate thread, but i'll bite.

    You. Are. A. Cleric.

    "I throw out all my heals, and i don't get kills" < Seems pretty reasonable.
    "I can't outdps pure DPS classes or win 1v1s" < And you shouldn't be able to when you come into a BG packing skills that deal NO damage.
    "I have more deaths than kills" < Again, CLERIC. You heal, not kill. You are a healer, you are public enemy #1, people will gun for you.
    "Working my *** off, but nothing to show for it" < You have assists to show for it. Thats what a healer does, he assists. If you did your job well, you have a win to show for it as well.

    That's about it, overall based on the tone of your post/attitude i really don't think playing a support-y class is for you, try a rogue or a wizard and it might be more up your alley.

    I think you hit the nail on the head here. I usually don't play cleric classes. I'm usually a tank hybrid or rogue.

    However I have found the Cleric class in Neverwinter to be super fun, and I suppose I shouldn't be looking at the leader boards for my gratification.

    On the other hand, it would be nice if they put an 'Amount Healed' stat, that way I can be number 1 and feel good :D

    I'll try to re-evaluate my attitude about the rankings in the leader board, and consider the things you said.
  • mcwaffle777mcwaffle777 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 28 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Truer words never spoken. I played Rift as a bubble healer (doesn't get logged on the score menu), ****-talking all the time in my direction. Was crazy. Honestly, I feel PvP should always be more like PvE where even though it isn't so fair to experienced players, a whole team gets only 1 score, or at least that if you group up, your team shares a score (so a healer can be guaranteed points). On SWTOR, which has a lot of shared features w/ this game this was a very, very terrible issue, much more so than in NW

    Bubble healer, lol prob cause a bubble isnt a heal I bet it was self bobble only too boot
  • argonacargonac Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    One thing to consider regarding healers is that if the healer can't outheal one dps, how is he supposed to keep his TEAM healed then?

    That said, clerics in this game don't have very powerful heals in comparison to some other games, and instead have better dps options.
  • bunzagabunzaga Member Posts: 52
    edited May 2013
    necromyrez wrote: »
    Change your sunburst to chains, and pick up your beam of light.

    Is the beam of light Searing Light or did you mean something else?
  • bandor1234bandor1234 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I've only done 4 of the lvl 19 battlegrounds. But my pug team has won all 4.

    At lvl 12 after 4 fights I have had around 6 kills, 1 death, and around 80 assists as a cleric. I imagine going back in a few more levels with better gear will be a lot of fun.

    I can only speak for my own experiences, but clerics seem pretty good.
  • purutzilpurutzil Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Clerics actually become quite durable in PvP. If TR and CW weren't so **** powerful you would actually stand out quite a lot in PvP as a cleric. So given focus fire? Iffy... but if everyones being split up on who is being damaged, a team with a cleric would be more likely to win.
    GWF level 60 (Beholder) - The pains of leveling!
    Cleric level 5X (Dragon) - Holy goblin so much easier!
  • necromyreznecromyrez Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bunzaga wrote: »
    Is the beam of light Searing Light or did you mean something else?

    Searing light. Forget hallowed ground until it heals people(paragon talent around lvl 50'ish) Focus on your flamestrike, maybe keep hallowed as your 2nd daily at 18. But the amount of defense it gives just doesn't matter when you're fighting the higher levels, because they just shred you.
  • lordfuxatonlordfuxaton Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I am level 39, I've leveled through pvp mostly. My gear is ****, and my damage is pathetic compared to dps classes, my CC abilities are a joke, I have no way to escape being focused by rogues other than to slide around. The heals are weak, and the channeled divine heal can easily be interrupted.

    Clerics aren't the primary healers, then who is suppose to do the healing? I picked cleric thinking I'd be a healer, instead I am a ****ty mage. The class can be fun, but I have 0 motivation to do dungeons, since no one plays a guardian, and I constantly have agro, also dungeon experience is terrible, I get 2 bars for 45 minute dungeon, I can afk in pvp and get 4 bars in a 6 minute loss to the opposing team.
  • pantamimepantamime Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    If you are playing to win don't even look at the score board til the game is over. Capture nodes, defend nodes and assist - never be concerned with kills or killing blows. You can have 0 kills and 10 deaths and still win the match. Leave the KB counting to the insecure elitists who think Killing people is what matters.

    It only matters if theyre capturing or defending a point. I can't tell you how many videos I have seen of a player going after a kill finally getting the kill then running to the health pot spawn for a heal. Then they continue to run up accross the bridge drop down and sneak a KB then run back to the health pot.

    Sure they are technically "beating" people because they killed them. But in all that time their team has lost 1 or both nodes and their healer is getting chain CC'ed and killed while they worry about "derderp I got a KB"

    I also see many TR even at level 60 still concerned with KB, they just sit up top on the overhead bridge and jump down to chase low HP people. This isn't a horrible tactic except when they are going out of their way to get the kill when the node is being capped. The PvP here is all about applying pressure to certain people at certain times to get them off and away from the node.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
  • bunzagabunzaga Member Posts: 52
    edited May 2013
    bandor1234 wrote: »
    ...6 kills, 1 death, and around 80 assists as a cleric.
    That sounds about right.

    Usually 0-2 kills, 4-6 deaths, and like 20+ assists per match.

    I just look at the board at the end, and think, my team must be thinking I am not doing anything, because if it says I died 6 times and didn't kill anyone, it looks like I suck LOL.

    I guess you guys are right, I am looking at this from a tank / dps point of view, and I was just not used to being a healing class.
  • necromyreznecromyrez Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I dunno what these other clerics are doing man, you should be positive K/D Ratio every match, and try to stay on nodes as much as possible. I quite frequently get top of the team and get my blue piece of gear, which is why I queue up, not just to win, to get blue gear.
  • v1510n5v1510n5 Member Posts: 54
    edited May 2013
    bunzaga wrote: »
    Am I missing something here?

    Yes. You're a healer. Not a DPS class. You can't expect to get kills as a healer. Your job is to keep yourself and your allies alive.

    Clerics are INDISPENSABLE in PvP. If your team doesn't have a healer you're screwed. Trust me, your teammates appreciate your efforts more than they do the Rogue or the GWF who burst down enemies.
  • horsepantshorsepants Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 23 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Score board means nothing, besides the two x/1000 numbers. Rogues bring the least to the table of the 5 classes. I have won a game with our team having 3 kills to there 45.


    I'm not saying it does, I'm saying don't expect to be the top. Some people care for whatever reason.

    And I disagree, smokebomb and taking a key target out in a 1-2 combo is very useful.
  • kiddeath989kiddeath989 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I did pvp when i was lv14 and got 3rd with only 4kills 1 death and 30 assist. Never focus on trying to fight unless it's necessary or you trying to ks and yes i ks for those 4 kills lol
  • pantamimepantamime Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bunzaga wrote: »
    That sounds about right.

    Usually 0-2 kills, 4-6 deaths, and like 20+ assists per match.

    I just look at the board at the end, and think, my team must be thinking I am not doing anything, because if it says I died 6 times and didn't kill anyone, it looks like I suck LOL.

    I guess you guys are right, I am looking at this from a tank / dps point of view, and I was just not used to being a healing class.

    Yes indeed that's about right. I was in a few games last night and I kept getting one of the top spots. We started as a PUG, but just kept requeueing the whole group since we all wanted to pvp anyway. I was asking about the amount of glory per win becuase it kept changing randomly on me even though we won every time but that's a different discussion.

    I told the group I was the top spot on the score board and i got less Glory this win than last win. And 2 of them chimed in and said "How did you even get any points?"

    This just shows how focused people are on getting kills.

    I had like 1 kill 6 or 8 deaths and upwards of 30 assists.

    I play a CW, and I focus on control. I told them I got the points because I ninja cap their home point and I focus on assists and defending the mid point/our home point when i see that red line forming around our blue circle. You get most Points For Capping and defending, and if you can get an assist for every kill in the match you are getting a ton of points.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
  • mandelhandlemandelhandle Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Are you kidding me kid ?
    Ur a cleric exatcly the same as me. im specced into full heal. sure we got some trubbles holding our teams alive in pvp when they get jumped. but what are you talking about kills for ? clerics is rated of other players by the amoult of assist and death prevents. we are there to help our team stay alive not to kill people. if you want to have a good amoult of kills go a dps class then or spec into a dps cleric instead of heal. read youre spells learn youre controls and you will be just fine. and for god sake forget about getting kills when youre a cleric focus on helping youre team stay alive and communicate with them.
  • bunzagabunzaga Member Posts: 52
    edited May 2013
    pantamime wrote: »
    Sure they are technically "beating" people because they killed them. But in all that time their team has lost 1 or both nodes and their healer is getting chain CC'ed and killed while they worry about "derderp I got a KB"

    Haha! You made me LOL. Good point.

    Yeah, I also found that when everyone is focused on the center node, I can easily just run past them to either 1 or 3 and attempt to cap it. Usually 2-3 people try to follow me, so it means (hopefully) my allies are taking advantage of this and are able to secure the center.
  • zingarbagezingarbage Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    At 60 it is more about debuffing and buffing. You do have heals, but that is mainly in the form of regen from astral shield. The key is to keep you teams damage resistance high through AS and foresight.

    You also want to build for action point gain, divinity gain, and recovery. This way you have a very high up time on hallowed ground. Having a hallowed on top of an AS makes you and your team incredibly durable.

    Outside of AS or Hallowed you are vulnerable which is why you build for recovery and divinity gain. If you are going against a dps that has stacked the tenebrous enchant, you'll die regardless, but surely it will get nerfed soon.

    Also, the cleric can go, and is effective, at dps. Apply your three dots and then nuke. Stuff will melt. I'd still have astral shield though, it is just too strong. The dungeon set is built more for dps having power, crit, defense, and recovery. If you can build this, you will be strong.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mandelhandlemandelhandle Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    btw when you get to 20+ you will see a massive improvement. i only die 1-3 times during a pvp match and get tons of assists and helping my team to the victory. kite behind cover and stack your bar as fast as possible have it ready and dont spam hots on ppl like giving out candy. they last for a good amoult of time and are not needed to be reapplied all the time. check for the enemys movement and try to predict where the heavy dmg is going to fall on.
  • necromyreznecromyrez Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Are you kidding me kid ?
    Ur a cleric exatcly the same as me. im specced into full heal. sure we got some trubbles holding our teams alive in pvp when they get jumped. but what are you talking about kills for ? clerics is rated of other players by the amoult of assist and death prevents. we are there to help our team stay alive not to kill people. if you want to have a good amoult of kills go a dps class then or spec into a dps cleric instead of heal. read youre spells learn youre controls and you will be just fine. and for god sake forget about getting kills when youre a cleric focus on helping youre team stay alive and communicate with them.

    I assume this is directed at me, as I stated previously, I win 90% of the pvp matches I play, and of those about 75% as top of the team.....so trust me, I am helping the team, very much so. When all the *****ing and whining clerics learn that in the current state of play you just CAN NOT outheal dps, not even a remotely close, and start helping burn targets down and debuffing, all the sudden cleric becomes a god.

    You have knock up, then knock down, and (Feat spec'd)Stun just from flame strike, not to mention it's aoe dmg. You have root from chains. You have weaken from lvl 45 DoT. You have plenty of CC/Debuffs to use.

    If you don't want to play like me, don't. But i'm extremely strong in pvp and love cleric. I am not the one asking how to be stronger, nor am I complaining my heals are strong enough. This guy asked how to do better, I'm telling him.

    As far as the "make a DPS". No thanks, I faceroll DPS classes as cleric. :)
  • pantamimepantamime Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    bunzaga wrote: »
    Haha! You made me LOL. Good point.

    Yeah, I also found that when everyone is focused on the center node, I can easily just run past them to either 1 or 3 and attempt to cap it. Usually 2-3 people try to follow me, so it means (hopefully) my allies are taking advantage of this and are able to secure the center.

    That's another big part of the game play for PvP. Knowing when to ninja cap
    A big problem is that either
    A) no one pays attention and you get your home point ninjad or
    B) most of the team runs away from mid to go defend the home point leaving mid vulnerable for capture.

    If the battle at mid is raging on and it seems like you might lose but everyone else on your team is still fighting the good fight, you should go for the enemy point and try to ninja it. Even if you don't succeed you will most likely pull 2 of the enemy team away from mid to come defend their point.

    I guess it all come down to communication and always looking around at the points and at the map to see whats being capped and where your team needs you.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
  • mandelhandlemandelhandle Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    that post was meant to bunzaga.
    Never said that clerics cant dps.
    But hes a healing cleric and QQ's that he does no dmg. no ****!
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