izariel44 is right, lets step away from the pvp discussion to mention dungeons and skirmishes.
Now, I'm a competent player, i know what to use when to maximize my damage and i feel like I do decent damage(I play a GWF). But whenever I play with my friend who plays as a TR and is the same skill level as me, he makes me feel like i do a third of his damage...
For people to say that rogue isn't op are either oblivious to this fact or simply play as rogues themselves and always want to be OP.
The thing is imo, sa i epericed is understanding damage dealing mechanisms. Key is dps= damage per sec, ususaly build up from weapon speed, and the dexterity or agility depend on the game and damage itsef from strength weapon class. There other extra stuff, llike accuracy or armor penetration, but that not that imprtant im my example. If you are a gwf the you have a 2h weapon which is have a big damage but slow attack speed, and if you add the staring lvl 2 ability, which have to charge , then you have a very big damage (on yor lvl of course) but it is slow. You are like a Burst dmg class. I didnt leve it bus seen self heal, so it will be probably mor good to smt like secondary tank or dps like a retribution paladin on Wow. (Again im not gwf so anyone else know better feel free to correct) And rogue, small dmg weapon, dagger, short sword, but fast attakck speed, more like a sustained dps. And the msot important is time: in a same time, lets say a minute, a rogue would be able to do more damage per sec. WHile gwf hit 1 rogue hit 3-4. It is lower lvl based 'test' in highere lvl and gear can change it. Like if gwf have so awsome gear compared to the same lvl rogue then gfw will deal more damage, but in bursts still. Like slam in WoW's warrior. Original post's issue Ive seen ol lower lvl too, when killing the first 'bosses' the crown guardian and the brute on the bridge. ANd in an example again from wow, a marksmanship hunter(supposed be one of the higer damage class) and a survival hunter(who at low at es, more 'burst' dont have to charge up skill) was a way much better dps(one more feature there what tthe marksman cant move while charging his aimed shot) gwf can move, but very slow, but quite the same thing. And don forget armor and healt, qwf,seems hybrid tank/dps class, about high healt and armor/defense, stamina and stranght main. Rogue dodge,parry(deflect here) based on dexterity mainly (str is 2ndary) and lesser armor. And on lover level, gfw just dont have the gear to be the 'hit me i have 50k health'
i did't realize how op a rog was until i made one, i was laughing. you just run into groups of mobs and hold auto attack for win. haven't tried pvp, im only lv 15, mabye they get worse at higher levels?
If your having a tough time you may want to reflect on your playstyle and what you need to change to be more competitive if you find yourself lacking.
That's why I mentioned gear gaps and L2P issues that everyone has, since the game is so new. It's also why I don't ask for nerfs, My approach is to level one of each class (fast enough here and you don't have the WoW problem where it takes ages to gear up -- at 60, you get a minimum of 350 glory even if you lose, and PvP pieces cost between below-3k and 4.8k glory) and get a look at both sides of the fence. People who suggest nerfs should do that, too.
As a cleric I've been having more trouble with wizards in PvP than I've had with rogues.
1 Wizard = stunned 70% of the time, and you can say 'dodge' but once the first stun hits they can chain them while you are unable to dodge or resist in any way.
Going 1 on 1 against a rogue is challenging sure, they will stun for a few seconds and deal a lot of damage in that time, but then you dodge away/knock them back then you just need to land of few hard hits to put them below 50% health and they will stealth and back off.
(The rogue's escape is definitely OP, but you can't regen health in PvP unless someone heals you, so I'm not sure if escape does them much good TBH)
About control: So far rogues have 1 encounter move that dazes targets. Yeah you could get another one but then you would give up either damage or shadowstep. So ...no.
Rogue can burst ...that's right. But that's what they are known for, right? Dont make this another WoW where rogues do zero damage and lose control. Or in other words ...you are in the wrong forums ...WoW's that way.
Now let's talk about rogue versus wizards. yesterday I had my first encounter with a wiz who I'm pretty sure of was competent about his class. First of all there was litereally almost no chance to deal damage because I was either slowed or frozen or stunned. If I managed to reach him via dodge roll he teleported and thus dodged my dmg.
Oh and for the curious ones: Rogues dodge 2 times in a row, then our stamina is gone. Wizards teleport 3 times in a row and still have some stamina left due to its regeneration rate.
Oh and for the curious ones: Rogues dodge 2 times in a row, then our stamina is gone. Wizards teleport 3 times in a row and still have some stamina left due to its regeneration rate.
I don't really see it as rogues being OP (though they may be).
A lot of the classes are simply dull, lifeless and uninteresting. Rogues present you with more options, more flash, and more style. Even if rogues were the weakest class in the game, with the exact same abilities and tools available...I would still be a TR.
Normally I play bruiser types almost exclusively across every game I play. That should tell you something about how dull the two warrior types are to me =(
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beruskooMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited May 2013
Looks like in your post you know everything what rogues have, now you just have to counter them. Btw Rogue is the pure dps class ingame, focused in single target dps, so yeah it's normal to be "OP" cuz it's the ONLY ONE.
When they add the next 2 classes, specially Ranger, then balanced will kick in.
CW can make a rogue cry btw.
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quo2rMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
I am playing a rogue, and I am struggling currently to kill anything in PvP. Unsure if its my build, my gear, or my usage, but its really turning me off.
I am playing a rogue, and I am struggling currently to kill anything in PvP. Unsure if its my build, my gear, or my usage, but its really turning me off.
The op basically abandoned this which looks like he is just trying to troll. I just got done running several pvp and each of them the rogues had more deaths then kills. Yes they can kill stuff quickly but they can be killed just as easily.
There are also several posts claiming Control Wizards are OP. So if 80% are rogues the rest must be CW. Do you have some official source for this 80% claim?
According to forum, 80% of the player base are playing rouge, the other 80% are pure control wizard.
Looks like in your post your everything what rogues have, now you just have to counter them. Btw Rogue is the pure dps class ingame, focused in single target dps, so yeah it's normal to be "OP" cuz it's the ONLY ONE.
When they add the next 2 classes, specially Ranger, then balanced will kick in.
CW can make a rogue cry btw.
CW can make any class cry. 2 half decent CW spamming CC and the next thing you know ur locked down for 15 second before getting sucked into a stupid ball of light and fly all over the screen.
I'm not saying the class needs a nerf, but the animation definitely needs some work.
Could only stand rubber-banding round the battlefield for so much.
Their CC is OP... they are able to take me down as guardian during the single CC... And seems there is no diminishing return of stunlock by several players... Making the game against CC classes not fun, cause you just die while not being able to do anything.
Yep, happens in every game. Anything that forces a player to adapt is op, because people are just bad at thinking ahead.
This, so much this. All depends on the balls of the developer team. I remember htis happening in shadowbane, and the dev's laughed at the whiners and basically told them to F'K off.And that game had 25 races and about 300 class combinations.
It's actually really easy to deny your claims. Best single target dps? Absolutely. But when a GWF comes in and doesn't try to pretend they're single target as well, and they go and mop up hordes of adds and keep the caster classes alive, the can pretty easily be first or second on damage done charts.
Amazing control? What are you talking about? The Rogue has one effective daze, and it comes with a 23ish second cooldown. Yeah, there's that smokebomb that's an aoe daze, but it's only effective if you stand inside the smoke, mouth agape at the screen, wondering what to do.
Survivability? I don't know what kind of rogue you've been looking at. On the PVE side, take one to Mt Hotenow, or the Whispering Caverns, and let's see how long you last. If you aren't constantly in stealth, dodging or finding clever ways to misdirect enemies, even minion level mobs will obliterate half or more of your health in literally one second. If you overpull and don't have enough stealth extending tricks to get through it, it's going to hurt, a lot, if you even manage to survive. On the PVP side, Rogues are the easiest class to kill. CWs and DCs have enough range that a good one can kill you before you even get close enough to touch them. A good GF will block basically all of a rogue's burst damage without breaking a sweat.
It's entirely disputable. Level 60 PVP, I went up against a team featuring 2 pretty great CWs, who effectively stun locked my entire team, so badly that two of them rage-quit and made the CW's job even easier. Instead of crying "Control Wizards are OP, they have too much CC!!!1" I just sat back and accepted the fact that there are people who are simply better than I am at PVP.
It has nothing to do with enjoying this imaginary "OPness", and rather has more to do with making people understand that nerfing a class that doesn't need a nerf is only going to make it unplayable and unenjoyable.
The only class I think really needs any fine tuning is the GWF, and not their damage side either, but rather their tanky side. If they're supposed to be a hybrid, then their off-tank side should be a more worthwhile pursuit, but that's another thing entirely that plenty of people have already spoken on.
>Claim that everything you say is infallible and undeniable.
>Say that anyone who denies or argues what you say is a troll rogue that wants to stay OP.
It is not fact that rogues are OP. It is not common knowledge, either. 80% of the player base are not rogues. This was determined by sitting around in Protector's Enclave and recording the class of everyone who walked by. Needless to say, it is nowhere near 80% and actually around 20-30%.
Stating the benefits of a class does not show how that class has no downsides. It is in fact disputable that Rogues don't have better control than Control Wizards. Play a control wizard and perhaps it will not be so indisputable in your eyes.
Contrary to what you said earlier, and despite how much you emphasize that everything you say is fact, Rogues do not have very good survivability. They have 2 skills that can be used defensively and they don't last very long. Beyond that, Rogues are quite squishy.
I don't main a rogue so I have no ulterior motives in saying that Rogues are no more OP than control wizards or guardians. If you actually had a decent amount of knowledge of the game, you would not be here *****ing about a class that isn't OP.
Actually this is easily disputable. 80% would mean every time I join on average 4 out of 5 of my team would be rogues. This observation is laughable. I have been pvp all the way to 42 getting the majority of my experience running pvp. In that time I have never been in a 5 out of 5 or 4 out of 5 rogue pvp party.
I have run into control wizards guardians healers that have beaten me, I have beaten rogues. Maybe try an easier game like checkers.
Most everything being said against rogues is laughable, this version of stealthers has the least cc of any pvp mmo I've ever seen and their dmg is "auto attacks" or at wills not instant from stealth openers like other games. This crying is just that, and BS if you ask me.
Damage aside I thinks the problem with the tr is that they outclass the cw at their own roll. There are rouge builds that hard lock much more effiecent than the cw. I'd be estatic if tr cc's scaled back in pvp as the cws do
Yeah, 1 cc against CW's outclasses them at their own role................. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
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voxclamantisMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
The one thing that is absolutely undeniable is that TRs have significantly higher single target damage potential than any other class currently in the game. This has been measured and quantified by various testers over the beta weekends. Whether that constitutes a design oversight remains to be determined, but it seems like a good starting place to discuss class balance. There are four things that are important in PvP: damage, mitigation (including healing), mobility, and crowd control. If a class has more of one, they ought to have less of the others. Do rogues have less mitigation, mobility, and crowd control than the classes they out-damage? If the answer is no (not saying it is), then rogues may be overpowered.
Their I-win button is absolutely OP. Stun + heavy nuke at same time... and with short cooldown... its just radiculous. How can such a nuke stun class have such a great survavibility on top of that? Its just lame.
The op basically abandoned this which looks like he is just trying to troll. I just got done running several pvp and each of them the rogues had more deaths then kills. Yes they can kill stuff quickly but they can be killed just as easily.
This is so true, all rogues except the occasional well geared AND experienced ones have bad KDR.
The one thing that is absolutely undeniable is that TRs have significantly higher single target damage potential than any other class currently in the game. This has been measured and quantified by various testers over the beta weekends. Whether that constitutes a design oversight remains to be determined, but it seems like a good starting place to discuss class balance. There are four things that are important in PvP: damage, mitigation (including healing), mobility, and crowd control. If a class has more of one, they ought to have less of the others. Do rogues have less mitigation, mobility, and crowd control than the classes they out-damage? If the answer is no (not saying it is), then rogues may be overpowered.
1 cc, no mitigation, no sustain and a few iffy escapes at higher level. It is fine, people are crying.
It's funny how control wizards say rogues are OP, and rogues say control wizards are OP. This thread amuses me.
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bobopongoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I've seen only a couple of good rogues till now. I've always been an hardcore pvper and I have to say I've seen way stronger clerics. People just tend to burn all their cooldowns in two seconds, all rogues do that: they think they are smart and hide behind you to nuke. Learn how to position in fights, learn how to dodge. They sure have an high damage output, but as a CW I have no problems doing 1 on 1.
The trouble may happen if you get attacked by two rogues (or more) at once. But that's another story.
PS: I wear blue NPC items, no donation stuff
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tyler23434Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Comments
The thing is imo, sa i epericed is understanding damage dealing mechanisms. Key is dps= damage per sec, ususaly build up from weapon speed, and the dexterity or agility depend on the game and damage itsef from strength weapon class. There other extra stuff, llike accuracy or armor penetration, but that not that imprtant im my example. If you are a gwf the you have a 2h weapon which is have a big damage but slow attack speed, and if you add the staring lvl 2 ability, which have to charge , then you have a very big damage (on yor lvl of course) but it is slow. You are like a Burst dmg class. I didnt leve it bus seen self heal, so it will be probably mor good to smt like secondary tank or dps like a retribution paladin on Wow. (Again im not gwf so anyone else know better feel free to correct) And rogue, small dmg weapon, dagger, short sword, but fast attakck speed, more like a sustained dps. And the msot important is time: in a same time, lets say a minute, a rogue would be able to do more damage per sec. WHile gwf hit 1 rogue hit 3-4. It is lower lvl based 'test' in highere lvl and gear can change it. Like if gwf have so awsome gear compared to the same lvl rogue then gfw will deal more damage, but in bursts still. Like slam in WoW's warrior. Original post's issue Ive seen ol lower lvl too, when killing the first 'bosses' the crown guardian and the brute on the bridge. ANd in an example again from wow, a marksmanship hunter(supposed be one of the higer damage class) and a survival hunter(who at low at es, more 'burst' dont have to charge up skill) was a way much better dps(one more feature there what tthe marksman cant move while charging his aimed shot) gwf can move, but very slow, but quite the same thing. And don forget armor and healt, qwf,seems hybrid tank/dps class, about high healt and armor/defense, stamina and stranght main. Rogue dodge,parry(deflect here) based on dexterity mainly (str is 2ndary) and lesser armor. And on lover level, gfw just dont have the gear to be the 'hit me i have 50k health'
my main is a GF
That's why I mentioned gear gaps and L2P issues that everyone has, since the game is so new. It's also why I don't ask for nerfs, My approach is to level one of each class (fast enough here and you don't have the WoW problem where it takes ages to gear up -- at 60, you get a minimum of 350 glory even if you lose, and PvP pieces cost between below-3k and 4.8k glory) and get a look at both sides of the fence. People who suggest nerfs should do that, too.
1 Wizard = stunned 70% of the time, and you can say 'dodge' but once the first stun hits they can chain them while you are unable to dodge or resist in any way.
Going 1 on 1 against a rogue is challenging sure, they will stun for a few seconds and deal a lot of damage in that time, but then you dodge away/knock them back then you just need to land of few hard hits to put them below 50% health and they will stealth and back off.
(The rogue's escape is definitely OP, but you can't regen health in PvP unless someone heals you, so I'm not sure if escape does them much good TBH)
Rogue can burst ...that's right. But that's what they are known for, right? Dont make this another WoW where rogues do zero damage and lose control. Or in other words ...you are in the wrong forums ...WoW's that way.
Now let's talk about rogue versus wizards. yesterday I had my first encounter with a wiz who I'm pretty sure of was competent about his class. First of all there was litereally almost no chance to deal damage because I was either slowed or frozen or stunned. If I managed to reach him via dodge roll he teleported and thus dodged my dmg.
Oh and for the curious ones: Rogues dodge 2 times in a row, then our stamina is gone. Wizards teleport 3 times in a row and still have some stamina left due to its regeneration rate.
And rogues have a gap closer.
*edit*
A lot of the classes are simply dull, lifeless and uninteresting. Rogues present you with more options, more flash, and more style. Even if rogues were the weakest class in the game, with the exact same abilities and tools available...I would still be a TR.
Normally I play bruiser types almost exclusively across every game I play. That should tell you something about how dull the two warrior types are to me =(
When they add the next 2 classes, specially Ranger, then balanced will kick in.
CW can make a rogue cry btw.
The op basically abandoned this which looks like he is just trying to troll. I just got done running several pvp and each of them the rogues had more deaths then kills. Yes they can kill stuff quickly but they can be killed just as easily.
According to forum, 80% of the player base are playing rouge, the other 80% are pure control wizard.
The math is perfect.
CW can make any class cry. 2 half decent CW spamming CC and the next thing you know ur locked down for 15 second before getting sucked into a stupid ball of light and fly all over the screen.
I'm not saying the class needs a nerf, but the animation definitely needs some work.
Could only stand rubber-banding round the battlefield for so much.
I was a cleric.
/10char
Yeah, 1 cc against CW's outclasses them at their own role................. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
The trouble may happen if you get attacked by two rogues (or more) at once. But that's another story.
PS: I wear blue NPC items, no donation stuff
They have more then one cc and in pvp the duration isn't scaled back