From my experience, as a Rogue player, most players do not know how to deal with me, because:
1. There isn't a big circle on the ground saying "OMG WATCHOUT DANGER DANGER DANGER!" when I do an action.
2. People don't know how to DODGE
Now I am not going to sit here and claim that Rogue isn't overpowered or doesn't have it easier in the beginning, but generally in ANY game, rogues have always been one of the best picks because it forces a player to THINK due to their high utility, which the majority does not, and that is the sad truth.
And really, if you want to win most of your matches, play a Cleric, because like in any other game ... the one side with the healer takes the cake.
In pvp daze strike is ridiculously HAMSTER on my GF. Idk what the exact lockout time is but losing all defensive ability for that long on a class specifically designed to survive feels extremely ****ty.
Idk if I would consider it unbalancing but I would much prefer if it only affected a couple of ability's or there was a defensive cooldown to get me out of it. All I know is its enough to kill me from 40ish% health.
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
The reason for the large number of rogues in PvP is...
They are rogues.
No deeper reason than that, really. There are more rogues than many other classes PvPing in pretty much every game in existence. Heck, every time I was ganked in Darkshore/STV/TM, it was by a rogue. It's just the class that naturally attracts a competitive player.
Likely, it's more visible in NWO because there are only five classes. That sort of concentrated sample distills the PvP-minded into basically one quick, fast damage, high bursty DPS class with stealth.
Which, when you think of the word "gank", as in "these dudes just ganked my HAMSTER$", tell me a rogue popping out of stealth isn't the first picture that comes to mind.
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epixcomixMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
The reason for the large number of rogues in PvP is...
They are rogues.
No deeper reason than that, really. There are more rogues than many other classes PvPing in pretty much every game in existence. Heck, every time I was ganked in Darkshore/STV/TM, it was by a rogue. It's just the class that naturally attracts a competitive player.
Likely, it's more visible in NWO because there are only five classes. That sort of concentrated sample distills the PvP-minded into basically one quick, fast damage, high bursty DPS class with stealth.
Which, when you think of the word "gank", as in "these dudes just ganked my HAMSTER$", tell me a rogue popping out of stealth isn't the first picture that comes to mind.
Rogues are typically high damage characters with stealth. In pvp that usually means they melt face, thus, there are tons of rogue players (at least at the lower levels since this is a new game). If rogues actually weren't good in pvp, or were down near the bottom of the classes in the pvp pool, you wouldn't see as many because the random pvper tends to be fickle and will either avoid pvp all together or much more likely, reroll whatever the "best class" is at the time. The people that grief and gank don't care whether they are rogue or not, they care only that they have the advantage.
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forsakenlich1Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
just had a rogue with about a 500 lower gear score than mine do 3mil in clak tower. i as a GWF did 1.8 million.
Rogues are typically high damage characters with stealth. In pvp that usually means they melt face, thus, there are tons of rogue players (at least at the lower levels since this is a new game). If rogues actually weren't good in pvp, or were down near the bottom of the classes in the pvp pool, you wouldn't see as many because the random pvper tends to be fickle and will either avoid pvp all together or much more likely, reroll whatever the "best class" is at the time. The people that grief and gank don't care whether they are rogue or not, they care only that they have the advantage.
Rogues have been some of the worst arena classes in WoW for a long long time. The only real comp they fit into consistently was Rogue, Mage, Priest because (at least in WoW) burst and stealth fall flat faced with survivability and cc. Granted it might and probably will be different in this game but I will have to see when I get to cap. I don't know about overworld pvp since that never really mattered to me since it isn't competitive in any meaningful way.
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forsakenlich1Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Rogues are typically high damage characters with stealth. In pvp that usually means they melt face, thus, there are tons of rogue players (at least at the lower levels since this is a new game). If rogues actually weren't good in pvp, or were down near the bottom of the classes in the pvp pool, you wouldn't see as many because the random pvper tends to be fickle and will either avoid pvp all together or much more likely, reroll whatever the "best class" is at the time. The people that grief and gank don't care whether they are rogue or not, they care only that they have the advantage.
rogues are supposed to be high burst damage characters. Which they ARE, they shouldnt have high SUSTAINED damage as well, which they DO.
under no circumstances should a rogue out dps an equally geared GWF or wizard in a dungeon, unless its a single target boss fight
it is just wrong to give so much to one class
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rpgbroMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited May 2013
So many complaints already... Thus begins the inevitable downward spiral of rogue viability. This happens in every single game. Soon rogues are going to be the weakest class, when they should actually be one of the strongest DPS. Wizards and Great Weapon Fighters and everything introduced hereafter will soon trump us in every single regard.
I just want you guys to know what you're doing. But you probably already knew.
I hope to god that you play a cw so everyone can laugh at you. I've played every single class and by far the rogue hands down takes the most skill to play. survivability? you can still hit rogues and stealth and cc them. they are visible. you can hear them around you in stealth. so here. I play a rogue and I can easily shut down any moron who doesnt know how to counter them.
1. Use your ears and not your ***. dodge when you hear them.
2. use your eyes and not your ***. we have ZERO control. no stuns just a interupt, WHICH IS SO EASY TO SEE, hes going to jump in the air and cross his swords. THAT IS WHEN YOU DODGE. OMG you just dodged all of a rogues cc. great.
3. kite. rogues are the easiest class to kite in game. you have 1 shadowstep and thats it. we have to stop to ATTACK JSUT LIEK ANYONE ELSE. THAT MEANS IF YOU KEEP RUNNING WE CANT HIT YOU. so for example. rogues have two dodges a interupt and a shadowstep mechanic. Control wizards have 3 blinks and every ability is a cc. with a push back, a intrupt, a black hole and a stun. so dont come on the forums saying rogues have best cc. you just suck at dodging. we dont have enough dodges to out dodge a cw's cc. he ALWAYS has something up and can kite easily. rogues seem easy to play because you are to stupid to think with your head on how to counter them.
4. rogues are the easiest class to kill in this game. I play rogue because they are a pure dmg dealer class. and quite frankly the only class that takes skill. you try and play a rogue and stick to a cw that has a brain and knows how touse his cc's effectively. its IMPOSSIBLE to kill him. literally impossible.
5. you have to know what you are doing to be good at a rogue. sorry to burst your bubble. its hard to stick to a target on top of that I specced into duelist flurry. try using that and tell me rogues dont take skill. so next time you complain about them being op. think with your head and not your *** and learn to kite. easiest class in game to kill and kite.
P.S I made every class in game. by far cw is the skilless class of the bunch. so I hope you play one so i can laugh at you. ****ing moron
So many complaints already... Thus begins the inevitable downward spiral of rogue viability. This happens in every single game. Soon rogues are going to be the weakest class, when they should actually be one of the strongest DPS. Wizards and Great Weapon Fighters and everything introduced hereafter will soon trump us in every single regard.
I just want you guys to know what you're doing. But you probably already knew.
Yep, happens in every game. Anything that forces a player to adapt is op, because people are just bad at thinking ahead.
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purutzilMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Are rogues OP to the extent with all the points the OP says? No... but they are very very powerful and do need a nerf bat for sure. Right now in PvP you can see CW and TR doing some work, rogues being a notch above. Clerics to some extent are strong but honestly I see more in need of ways to counter them then tuning them down. Right now TR in particular followed by CW just destroy a match. You can sadly tell which team is likely to win by its class make up, the team with Rogues will likely win, with brownie points in their favor if its GWF against them, GF being a bit better though mostly in being able to distract them away for a little bit.
Though i will add that playing a GWF doesn't really help to much with my view so to some extent i sure it causes me to exaggerated what I see further.
GWF level 60 (Beholder) - The pains of leveling!
Cleric level 5X (Dragon) - Holy goblin so much easier!
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epixcomixMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
I hope to god that you play a cw so everyone can laugh at you. I've played every single class and by far the rogue hands down takes the most skill to play. survivability? you can still hit rogues and stealth and cc them. they are visible. you can hear them around you in stealth. so here. I play a rogue and I can easily shut down any moron who doesnt know how to counter them.
1. Use your ears and not your ***. dodge when you hear them.
2. use your eyes and not your ***. we have ZERO control. no stuns just a interupt, WHICH IS SO EASY TO SEE, hes going to jump in the air and cross his swords. THAT IS WHEN YOU DODGE. OMG you just dodged all of a rogues cc. great.
3. kite. rogues are the easiest class to kite in game. you have 1 shadowstep and thats it. we have to stop to ATTACK JSUT LIEK ANYONE ELSE. THAT MEANS IF YOU KEEP RUNNING WE CANT HIT YOU. so for example. rogues have two dodges a interupt and a shadowstep mechanic. Control wizards have 3 blinks and every ability is a cc. with a push back, a intrupt, a black hole and a stun. so dont come on the forums saying rogues have best cc. you just suck at dodging. we dont have enough dodges to out dodge a cw's cc. he ALWAYS has something up and can kite easily. rogues seem easy to play because you are to stupid to think with your head on how to counter them.
4. rogues are the easiest class to kill in this game. I play rogue because they are a pure dmg dealer class. and quite frankly the only class that takes skill. you try and play a rogue and stick to a cw that has a brain and knows how touse his cc's effectively. its IMPOSSIBLE to kill him. literally impossible.
5. you have to know what you are doing to be good at a rogue. sorry to burst your bubble. its hard to stick to a target on top of that I specced into duelist flurry. try using that and tell me rogues dont take skill. so next time you complain about them being op. think with your head and not your *** and learn to kite. easiest class in game to kill and kite.
P.S I made every class in game. by far cw is the skilless class of the bunch. so I hope you play one so i can laugh at you. ****ing moron
It's funny you mentioning that rogues take the most skill to play. Now this may be you talking about game play in the 50-60 range, because I've played a rogue and GWF up to 40s and find the rogue is actually is much easier to play WELL than the GWF. Each class has their advantages, but rogues have it pretty good at least up to 40 (won't comment beyond that since my experience isn't there).
Love the classic learn to dodge line. GWF doesn't get one! Also by the way about having people out running you...isn't that what your snare attack is for?
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meeporizedMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
Well im tired and lazy so i dont wanna read the whole thread but from my POV Rogues do not really seem OP they may feel like they hit hard but what me boggles me actually is....a Trickster Rogue is the least powerfull of all Rogue disciplines and yet i feel very very strong actually and on top of that my "rogueish expertise" is a waste of time i.e. disarming traps, sneaking and looking around corners etc.... im not sure how a rogue will play his "role" in higher dungeons but as of now i am not a rogue and beeing a Rogue in DDO feels by far better ;o
PS: It is just constructive criticism not sayin i dislike the game etc.
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ohanziiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited May 2013
90% (that's just as accurate an estimate as the 80% thrown around earlier in this thread ) of all the people *****ing about rogues are not lvl60. But a game has to be balanced at every single level right, or it just sucks. This is the same **** every time a MMO comes out. People play 10 levels, get instagibbed by someone and that other class is all of a sudden OP. I hope they don't start nerfing any class based on the opinion of people PvPing at lvl12-13.
Ok only on page 2 of this post and I see that are starter of this post must not be either a TR or CW and he or she is pissed that non **** players keep owning him or her This is and Rpg action or not there are rules tanks are tanks there not built to do dmg least not in the Dps ranks Healers have 1 job heal battle healers get people killed unless there secondary meaning there is a prime healer in the group too. CW also know as a wizzy nuker they are st8 dmg but still squishy but very deadly Rouge is a bust Dps class they "can" kill quickly because if they don't they die they too are squishy not as much as the nuker but u get the point the GSF is sustained dps due to the heavier armor they can hit hit hit hit with out having to stealth out or run the second point is they are off tanks they are not very squishy but without the shield they are lesss than a st8 tank but make up for it in dmg but compared to a CW or TR their speed is well slow hence why we TRs and other CW s tend to look like Gods. where fast but not OP by the rule of a true RPG ...Wow is blasphemy ...Era Nightborn
It's funny you mentioning that rogues take the most skill to play. Now this may be you talking about game play in the 50-60 range, because I've played a rogue and GWF up to 40s and find the rogue is actually is much easier to play WELL than the GWF. Each class has their advantages, but rogues have it pretty good at least up to 40 (won't comment beyond that since my experience isn't there).
Love the classic learn to dodge line. GWF doesn't get one! Also by the way about having people out running you...isn't that what your snare attack is for?
first of all your sprint acts as a dodge moron. sprint through someone you have no collision. use it. gwf was my first class they are liek any other warrior class you do nothing but spam your abilities and mongloid dmg. you guys think rogues are oveprowered because you are bad and they HAMSTER on bad people easily. you have a snare attack that son a 13.9 second cd which lasts 2 seconds.
Rogues are strong. very strong only when played well by someone who knows what thier doing. because after palying all the classes. they are the easiest to counter and kill. so instead of people complaining about them. learn to counter them. cw is by far the most broken class because they have a unlimited cc rotation with 3 blinks and a pushback. I wouldnt say nerf them to **** I would jsut say to give an open window to be able to stick and do damge because we have to stop to attack.
rogues dont need a nerf. l2p and l2 counter them. its very easy. dodge their interupt and you will win everytime. if your a gwf l2 sprint through his interupt. its very easy if you know what you are looking for.
The fact that rogues are outrageously overpowered cannot be denied.
-snip-
There is no down side to rogues they have the best dps of any class, amazing control, and survivability. This is just from a pve standpoint.
It's actually really easy to deny your claims. Best single target dps? Absolutely. But when a GWF comes in and doesn't try to pretend they're single target as well, and they go and mop up hordes of adds and keep the caster classes alive, the can pretty easily be first or second on damage done charts.
Amazing control? What are you talking about? The Rogue has one effective daze, and it comes with a 23ish second cooldown. Yeah, there's that smokebomb that's an aoe daze, but it's only effective if you stand inside the smoke, mouth agape at the screen, wondering what to do.
Survivability? I don't know what kind of rogue you've been looking at. On the PVE side, take one to Mt Hotenow, or the Whispering Caverns, and let's see how long you last. If you aren't constantly in stealth, dodging or finding clever ways to misdirect enemies, even minion level mobs will obliterate half or more of your health in literally one second. If you overpull and don't have enough stealth extending tricks to get through it, it's going to hurt, a lot, if you even manage to survive. On the PVP side, Rogues are the easiest class to kill. CWs and DCs have enough range that a good one can kill you before you even get close enough to touch them. A good GF will block basically all of a rogue's burst damage without breaking a sweat.
In pvp rogues are gods. 80% of active pvpers are playing the rogue class. Rogues currently have better control than control wizards. This is indisputable.
It's entirely disputable. Level 60 PVP, I went up against a team featuring 2 pretty great CWs, who effectively stun locked my entire team, so badly that two of them rage-quit and made the CW's job even easier. Instead of crying "Control Wizards are OP, they have too much CC!!!1" I just sat back and accepted the fact that there are people who are simply better than I am at PVP.
I know all the hordes of rogues in this game are going to flock here and attack me for not knowing anything. They just want to enjoy their OPness a little longer. Ignore them.
It has nothing to do with enjoying this imaginary "OPness", and rather has more to do with making people understand that nerfing a class that doesn't need a nerf is only going to make it unplayable and unenjoyable.
The only class I think really needs any fine tuning is the GWF, and not their damage side either, but rather their tanky side. If they're supposed to be a hybrid, then their off-tank side should be a more worthwhile pursuit, but that's another thing entirely that plenty of people have already spoken on.
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papi032Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Ok, so Dazing strike (which is HAMSTER easy to dodge), Deft strike (the blink), and for 3rd one viable ones are Wicked reminder (semi spammable debuff with some damage), Shadow Strike (refills stealth), Impossible to catch (3 secs immune to cc), or Smoke Bomb (dazes and slows people in it). So basically your damage is autoattacks, or you lack a gapcloser, or you lack cc. The most debilitating thing is that you can't run and attack. Just by running around you are semi unhittable. The guy that said rogues are easiest to kite wasn't wrong. Slow you say? 10% for 3 secs used once in a fight, please.. There are talents that increase your speed, but the main factor is that your damage as a rogue comes from at-wills. People that are whinning need to improve or wait until they get high level experience (not trying to be snobbish here like some sort of a uber pro). If you disagree with me, well.. you're entitled to..
Dazing strike is easy to dodge with a perfect connection.... that said very few people don't suffer from lag in cryptic games. Easy to dodge on paper perhaps. Then there's that daily that lets 'em one shot (or close to it) pretty much anyone who isn't blocking. As for control wizards... yeah. They're powerful. They're a ranged class with high damage (mind you nowhere close to the numbers TRs have). That's generally regarded as being advantageous in pvp from the getgo. They also have control when their cooldowns are up. Once their cooldowns go, however, it gets ugly for 'em pretty quick. Hells... work as a team and when you see them focusing on someone take the initiative. That's gonna hurt 'em. They can lock one person down but the chaotic nature of team vs team doesn't afford too many one on ones.
I hope to god that you play a cw so everyone can laugh at you. I've played every single class and by far the rogue hands down takes the most skill to play. survivability? you can still hit rogues and stealth and cc them. they are visible. you can hear them around you in stealth. so here. I play a rogue and I can easily shut down any moron who doesnt know how to counter them.
1. Use your ears and not your ***. dodge when you hear them.
2. use your eyes and not your ***. we have ZERO control. no stuns just a interupt, WHICH IS SO EASY TO SEE, hes going to jump in the air and cross his swords. THAT IS WHEN YOU DODGE. OMG you just dodged all of a rogues cc. great.
3. kite. rogues are the easiest class to kite in game. you have 1 shadowstep and thats it. we have to stop to ATTACK JSUT LIEK ANYONE ELSE. THAT MEANS IF YOU KEEP RUNNING WE CANT HIT YOU. so for example. rogues have two dodges a interupt and a shadowstep mechanic. Control wizards have 3 blinks and every ability is a cc. with a push back, a intrupt, a black hole and a stun. so dont come on the forums saying rogues have best cc. you just suck at dodging. we dont have enough dodges to out dodge a cw's cc. he ALWAYS has something up and can kite easily. rogues seem easy to play because you are to stupid to think with your head on how to counter them.
4. rogues are the easiest class to kill in this game. I play rogue because they are a pure dmg dealer class. and quite frankly the only class that takes skill. you try and play a rogue and stick to a cw that has a brain and knows how touse his cc's effectively. its IMPOSSIBLE to kill him. literally impossible.
5. you have to know what you are doing to be good at a rogue. sorry to burst your bubble. its hard to stick to a target on top of that I specced into duelist flurry. try using that and tell me rogues dont take skill. so next time you complain about them being op. think with your head and not your *** and learn to kite. easiest class in game to kill and kite.
P.S I made every class in game. by far cw is the skilless class of the bunch. so I hope you play one so i can laugh at you. ****ing moron
You have a join date of May 2013, you must be the fastest leveller there is to have played all five classes to a degree where you know all about them.
You have five posts, all of them either bashing CW or defending TR.
I smell a troll and I haven't even been here very long.
A rogues attacks are not so easy to dodge anymore. I don't know if they changed something, but I am super fast when it comes to those attacks, and most of the time I still get hit now. I've been PVPing on my GWF since the first moment I got into the tests, and for the first few test weekends it was fine. I heard the noise, Punishing Charge. They would miss, every time. Or I would just sprint out of the way. No problem whatsoever.
Now, they are nearly impossible to dodge. I was in a match yesterday, fighting a rogue as usual, and I was anticipating the big attack. Just by chance I managed to do my Punishing Charge just slightly BEFORE I heard the sound. By the time the actual attack came through I was 10 feet behind them. I still got hit. So, there is something wrong. I have a fast FIOS connection, so it's not lag either. Just sayin.
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ararararararagiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
>Claim that everything you say is infallible and undeniable.
>Say that anyone who denies or argues what you say is a troll rogue that wants to stay OP.
It is not fact that rogues are OP. It is not common knowledge, either. 80% of the player base are not rogues. This was determined by sitting around in Protector's Enclave and recording the class of everyone who walked by. Needless to say, it is nowhere near 80% and actually around 20-30%.
Stating the benefits of a class does not show how that class has no downsides. It is in fact disputable that Rogues don't have better control than Control Wizards. Play a control wizard and perhaps it will not be so indisputable in your eyes.
Contrary to what you said earlier, and despite how much you emphasize that everything you say is fact, Rogues do not have very good survivability. They have 2 skills that can be used defensively and they don't last very long. Beyond that, Rogues are quite squishy.
I don't main a rogue so I have no ulterior motives in saying that Rogues are no more OP than control wizards or guardians. If you actually had a decent amount of knowledge of the game, you would not be here *****ing about a class that isn't OP.
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epixcomixMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 2Arc User
first of all your sprint acts as a dodge moron. sprint through someone you have no collision. use it. gwf was my first class they are liek any other warrior class you do nothing but spam your abilities and mongloid dmg. you guys think rogues are oveprowered because you are bad and they HAMSTER on bad people easily. you have a snare attack that son a 13.9 second cd which lasts 2 seconds.
Rogues are strong. very strong only when played well by someone who knows what thier doing. because after palying all the classes. they are the easiest to counter and kill. so instead of people complaining about them. learn to counter them. cw is by far the most broken class because they have a unlimited cc rotation with 3 blinks and a pushback. I wouldnt say nerf them to **** I would jsut say to give an open window to be able to stick and do damge because we have to stop to attack.
rogues dont need a nerf. l2p and l2 counter them. its very easy. dodge their interupt and you will win everytime. if your a gwf l2 sprint through his interupt. its very easy if you know what you are looking for.
Sprint is NOT a dodge...and if you think it works the same way, then you're the moron. Dodge has an inherent speed boost+evade effect when activated for that first step. Sprint does not have this little bonus. If you pay attention at all in pvp, you will notice the little *dodge* or *evade* message when someone uses a dodge even though they are still within range of your actual attack. Sprint has no such evasion to it, it's just a faster run speed. When the first little signal of daze comes up, a straight sprint will not carry you far enough away through the rogue or away from them to get out of range of the hit. If you do engage sprint right before the daze animation triggers, then yes you can sprint out of range in time. If you consider mind-reading or pre-signal dodging a "mindless skill" you're obviously quite deluded. It's a hell of a lot easier to use the dodge mechanic to evade.
As for a warrior class that does nothing but spam abilities...really...it's quite obvious that if you did play a warrior, either guardian or GWF it couldn't have been for long since you really have no idea what you're talking about. Tell me what exactly you are doing with the rogue that makes you use so much more "skill". Go play a level 20 GWF against a similarly skilled level 20 TR and tell me how many times you win that fight. The deck is stacked in the TR favor...deny it as much as you want but there's a reason you're playing TR and not GWF and it ain't got nothing to do with TR needing more "skill".
Go play a level 20 GWF against a similarly skilled level 20 TR and tell me how many times you win that fight.
You can't base game balance around level 20 PvP. Or really, anything but max level. I agree that the GWF is likely to need buffs for the sub-35 experience, but what you see at level 20 (or even 59) is not representative of what level 60 PvP is like, especially with PvP gear in the equation.
You can't base game balance around level 20 PvP. Or really, anything but max level. I agree that the GWF is likely to need buffs for the sub-35 experience, but what you see at level 20 (or even 59) is not representative of what level 60 PvP is like, especially with PvP gear in the equation.
I'm expecting the 60 hgear+runes to have a major impact on increasing the difference in classes abilities. Which is kind of why im reluctant to complain too much. I'm guessing at 60 I will be able to laugh off a rogues damage while I'm cc'd with little problem.
I'm expecting the 60 hgear+runes to have a major impact on increasing the difference in classes abilities. Which is kind of why im reluctant to complain too much.
Same for me. My L60 experience in PvP with the CW has not really been enjoyable and rogues do kill me in about two seconds while I'm silenced or stunned, but it is at least in part a gear and l2p issue on my end, so until I have fixed those, I'm staying away from asking for nerfs for any class. I even rolled a rogue so I gain a better understanding of the class mechanics. (GFs are entirely impossible for my CW, too!)
@OP
Don't you think it's a bit early for nerf herding? The game hasn't even officially launched yet and you're in here crying about something that probably doesn't need to be fixed. I say probably since my TR is still under 10, I only play that character with my spouse, and I don't PvP.
Its not so much i faceroll on my TR as other classes dont know how to properly face me. Thus resulting me into 9/10 of some poor scrub trying to bait me.
Only to get blinked, then rageraped and i ride off on my t3 mount into the sunset.
OP would be a VERY good CW. Ive only seen one or 2.
I can usually 2v1 most rogues my level range.
So no, I believe it is the other characters who are bad, not TRs being OP.
Ive met a few dudes who could also tank me, but they couldnt kill me. Id eventually win that fight if they didnt haul *** to backup.
This is why I am of the opinion that a game should specialize in one or the other, but not both. How many times, in how many games have we had this discussion now? Balancing for both PvE and PvP is difficult, and one side always seems to suffer. With Rogues, the issue always comes down to stealth/control. If you nerf their damage for PvP, then we become a CC class in PvE. Bosses are typically immune to CC, so now you have a class with poor DPS and very little to offer a raid group. You could nerf their CC, but then you have a leather clad fighter/warrior, not a Rogue. They are difficult to balance, have been in every game I have played. Just something to keep in mind before everyone starts screaming nerf.
I think WAR did this well. They balanced for pvp first and then the rest of the content around that. The thing is, I'm pretty sure this game is pve first-pvp tacked on and that is extremely hard to balance properly without getting the raid moms' estrogen-cannons all sandy. Eventually some extra stat gets thrown in for pvp and the whole thing becomes a big ol' complicated mess.
I do think the TR is currently a bit too strong. I would not say his dps is the biggest problem, he is a single target dps, a striker after all. The problem is his combined utility/strength!
The TR just simply has too many tools, like the poster above listed. I like how half of the people hate/defend the TR but haven't even reached lvl 60 (nor did I, I am only lvl 42, but I have played about 30 PvP matches so far). The situation I have encountered is the following...
TR have a gap closer (teleports him behind the target)
TR have a silence/stun w/e which prevents you from doing anything but running for 3 seconds(ish) - yes it is dodge-able but who can dodge it 100% of the time?
TR have a slow they can put on you, which makes it a tad bit harder to kite, but it's ok imo
TR have a ranged attack - which kind of rounds out their kit - they gapclose and use the HUGE *** KNIFE - awsome burst, you kite etc etc, but at the end when I have zero HP he just stands still and throws his little knives and I am dead nontheless
TR are tougher than they look - not as tough as a GF or GWF but still
TR have their stealth - yes you can hear when they enter it but it is still a great great tool!
TR have dodge mechanic - which they can use to avoid a lot of CC from other classes
I think you are starting to see my point here...there is just too many skills and utilities for one class imo. They shouldn't be hitting the dmg part of it, he's a striker after all, but this many options to go - it's just unfair against other classes I think. Every class has it's strengths and it's weaknesses but the TR seems to have less of the latter
I had my ups and downs as a control wizzard. In some games I stomped in some games I GOT stomped. It feels a lot more balanced - every CC skill of mine is easy to dodge if you know when to do it I stomped TRs and I also got stomped by some. All I think is the TR class needs some tweaks to make it more balanced in PvP and also PvE probably!
Comments
1. There isn't a big circle on the ground saying "OMG WATCHOUT DANGER DANGER DANGER!" when I do an action.
2. People don't know how to DODGE
Now I am not going to sit here and claim that Rogue isn't overpowered or doesn't have it easier in the beginning, but generally in ANY game, rogues have always been one of the best picks because it forces a player to THINK due to their high utility, which the majority does not, and that is the sad truth.
And really, if you want to win most of your matches, play a Cleric, because like in any other game
Idk if I would consider it unbalancing but I would much prefer if it only affected a couple of ability's or there was a defensive cooldown to get me out of it. All I know is its enough to kill me from 40ish% health.
They are rogues.
No deeper reason than that, really. There are more rogues than many other classes PvPing in pretty much every game in existence. Heck, every time I was ganked in Darkshore/STV/TM, it was by a rogue. It's just the class that naturally attracts a competitive player.
Likely, it's more visible in NWO because there are only five classes. That sort of concentrated sample distills the PvP-minded into basically one quick, fast damage, high bursty DPS class with stealth.
Which, when you think of the word "gank", as in "these dudes just ganked my HAMSTER$", tell me a rogue popping out of stealth isn't the first picture that comes to mind.
Rogues are typically high damage characters with stealth. In pvp that usually means they melt face, thus, there are tons of rogue players (at least at the lower levels since this is a new game). If rogues actually weren't good in pvp, or were down near the bottom of the classes in the pvp pool, you wouldn't see as many because the random pvper tends to be fickle and will either avoid pvp all together or much more likely, reroll whatever the "best class" is at the time. The people that grief and gank don't care whether they are rogue or not, they care only that they have the advantage.
this is stupid
Rogues have been some of the worst arena classes in WoW for a long long time. The only real comp they fit into consistently was Rogue, Mage, Priest because (at least in WoW) burst and stealth fall flat faced with survivability and cc. Granted it might and probably will be different in this game but I will have to see when I get to cap. I don't know about overworld pvp since that never really mattered to me since it isn't competitive in any meaningful way.
rogues are supposed to be high burst damage characters. Which they ARE, they shouldnt have high SUSTAINED damage as well, which they DO.
under no circumstances should a rogue out dps an equally geared GWF or wizard in a dungeon, unless its a single target boss fight
it is just wrong to give so much to one class
I just want you guys to know what you're doing. But you probably already knew.
1. Use your ears and not your ***. dodge when you hear them.
2. use your eyes and not your ***. we have ZERO control. no stuns just a interupt, WHICH IS SO EASY TO SEE, hes going to jump in the air and cross his swords. THAT IS WHEN YOU DODGE. OMG you just dodged all of a rogues cc. great.
3. kite. rogues are the easiest class to kite in game. you have 1 shadowstep and thats it. we have to stop to ATTACK JSUT LIEK ANYONE ELSE. THAT MEANS IF YOU KEEP RUNNING WE CANT HIT YOU. so for example. rogues have two dodges a interupt and a shadowstep mechanic. Control wizards have 3 blinks and every ability is a cc. with a push back, a intrupt, a black hole and a stun. so dont come on the forums saying rogues have best cc. you just suck at dodging. we dont have enough dodges to out dodge a cw's cc. he ALWAYS has something up and can kite easily. rogues seem easy to play because you are to stupid to think with your head on how to counter them.
4. rogues are the easiest class to kill in this game. I play rogue because they are a pure dmg dealer class. and quite frankly the only class that takes skill. you try and play a rogue and stick to a cw that has a brain and knows how touse his cc's effectively. its IMPOSSIBLE to kill him. literally impossible.
5. you have to know what you are doing to be good at a rogue. sorry to burst your bubble. its hard to stick to a target on top of that I specced into duelist flurry. try using that and tell me rogues dont take skill. so next time you complain about them being op. think with your head and not your *** and learn to kite. easiest class in game to kill and kite.
P.S I made every class in game. by far cw is the skilless class of the bunch. so I hope you play one so i can laugh at you. ****ing moron
Yep, happens in every game. Anything that forces a player to adapt is op, because people are just bad at thinking ahead.
Though i will add that playing a GWF doesn't really help to much with my view so to some extent i sure it causes me to exaggerated what I see further.
Cleric level 5X (Dragon) - Holy goblin so much easier!
It's funny you mentioning that rogues take the most skill to play. Now this may be you talking about game play in the 50-60 range, because I've played a rogue and GWF up to 40s and find the rogue is actually is much easier to play WELL than the GWF. Each class has their advantages, but rogues have it pretty good at least up to 40 (won't comment beyond that since my experience isn't there).
Love the classic learn to dodge line. GWF doesn't get one! Also by the way about having people out running you...isn't that what your snare attack is for?
PS: It is just constructive criticism not sayin i dislike the game etc.
first of all your sprint acts as a dodge moron. sprint through someone you have no collision. use it. gwf was my first class they are liek any other warrior class you do nothing but spam your abilities and mongloid dmg. you guys think rogues are oveprowered because you are bad and they HAMSTER on bad people easily. you have a snare attack that son a 13.9 second cd which lasts 2 seconds.
Rogues are strong. very strong only when played well by someone who knows what thier doing. because after palying all the classes. they are the easiest to counter and kill. so instead of people complaining about them. learn to counter them. cw is by far the most broken class because they have a unlimited cc rotation with 3 blinks and a pushback. I wouldnt say nerf them to **** I would jsut say to give an open window to be able to stick and do damge because we have to stop to attack.
rogues dont need a nerf. l2p and l2 counter them. its very easy. dodge their interupt and you will win everytime. if your a gwf l2 sprint through his interupt. its very easy if you know what you are looking for.
Amazing control? What are you talking about? The Rogue has one effective daze, and it comes with a 23ish second cooldown. Yeah, there's that smokebomb that's an aoe daze, but it's only effective if you stand inside the smoke, mouth agape at the screen, wondering what to do.
Survivability? I don't know what kind of rogue you've been looking at. On the PVE side, take one to Mt Hotenow, or the Whispering Caverns, and let's see how long you last. If you aren't constantly in stealth, dodging or finding clever ways to misdirect enemies, even minion level mobs will obliterate half or more of your health in literally one second. If you overpull and don't have enough stealth extending tricks to get through it, it's going to hurt, a lot, if you even manage to survive. On the PVP side, Rogues are the easiest class to kill. CWs and DCs have enough range that a good one can kill you before you even get close enough to touch them. A good GF will block basically all of a rogue's burst damage without breaking a sweat.
It's entirely disputable. Level 60 PVP, I went up against a team featuring 2 pretty great CWs, who effectively stun locked my entire team, so badly that two of them rage-quit and made the CW's job even easier. Instead of crying "Control Wizards are OP, they have too much CC!!!1" I just sat back and accepted the fact that there are people who are simply better than I am at PVP.
It has nothing to do with enjoying this imaginary "OPness", and rather has more to do with making people understand that nerfing a class that doesn't need a nerf is only going to make it unplayable and unenjoyable.
The only class I think really needs any fine tuning is the GWF, and not their damage side either, but rather their tanky side. If they're supposed to be a hybrid, then their off-tank side should be a more worthwhile pursuit, but that's another thing entirely that plenty of people have already spoken on.
You have a join date of May 2013, you must be the fastest leveller there is to have played all five classes to a degree where you know all about them.
You have five posts, all of them either bashing CW or defending TR.
I smell a troll and I haven't even been here very long.
Now, they are nearly impossible to dodge. I was in a match yesterday, fighting a rogue as usual, and I was anticipating the big attack. Just by chance I managed to do my Punishing Charge just slightly BEFORE I heard the sound. By the time the actual attack came through I was 10 feet behind them. I still got hit. So, there is something wrong. I have a fast FIOS connection, so it's not lag either. Just sayin.
>Say that anyone who denies or argues what you say is a troll rogue that wants to stay OP.
It is not fact that rogues are OP. It is not common knowledge, either. 80% of the player base are not rogues. This was determined by sitting around in Protector's Enclave and recording the class of everyone who walked by. Needless to say, it is nowhere near 80% and actually around 20-30%.
Stating the benefits of a class does not show how that class has no downsides. It is in fact disputable that Rogues don't have better control than Control Wizards. Play a control wizard and perhaps it will not be so indisputable in your eyes.
Contrary to what you said earlier, and despite how much you emphasize that everything you say is fact, Rogues do not have very good survivability. They have 2 skills that can be used defensively and they don't last very long. Beyond that, Rogues are quite squishy.
I don't main a rogue so I have no ulterior motives in saying that Rogues are no more OP than control wizards or guardians. If you actually had a decent amount of knowledge of the game, you would not be here *****ing about a class that isn't OP.
Sprint is NOT a dodge...and if you think it works the same way, then you're the moron. Dodge has an inherent speed boost+evade effect when activated for that first step. Sprint does not have this little bonus. If you pay attention at all in pvp, you will notice the little *dodge* or *evade* message when someone uses a dodge even though they are still within range of your actual attack. Sprint has no such evasion to it, it's just a faster run speed. When the first little signal of daze comes up, a straight sprint will not carry you far enough away through the rogue or away from them to get out of range of the hit. If you do engage sprint right before the daze animation triggers, then yes you can sprint out of range in time. If you consider mind-reading or pre-signal dodging a "mindless skill" you're obviously quite deluded. It's a hell of a lot easier to use the dodge mechanic to evade.
As for a warrior class that does nothing but spam abilities...really...it's quite obvious that if you did play a warrior, either guardian or GWF it couldn't have been for long since you really have no idea what you're talking about. Tell me what exactly you are doing with the rogue that makes you use so much more "skill". Go play a level 20 GWF against a similarly skilled level 20 TR and tell me how many times you win that fight. The deck is stacked in the TR favor...deny it as much as you want but there's a reason you're playing TR and not GWF and it ain't got nothing to do with TR needing more "skill".
You can't base game balance around level 20 PvP. Or really, anything but max level. I agree that the GWF is likely to need buffs for the sub-35 experience, but what you see at level 20 (or even 59) is not representative of what level 60 PvP is like, especially with PvP gear in the equation.
I'm expecting the 60 hgear+runes to have a major impact on increasing the difference in classes abilities. Which is kind of why im reluctant to complain too much. I'm guessing at 60 I will be able to laugh off a rogues damage while I'm cc'd with little problem.
Same for me. My L60 experience in PvP with the CW has not really been enjoyable and rogues do kill me in about two seconds while I'm silenced or stunned, but it is at least in part a gear and l2p issue on my end, so until I have fixed those, I'm staying away from asking for nerfs for any class. I even rolled a rogue so I gain a better understanding of the class mechanics. (GFs are entirely impossible for my CW, too!)
Don't you think it's a bit early for nerf herding? The game hasn't even officially launched yet and you're in here crying about something that probably doesn't need to be fixed. I say probably since my TR is still under 10, I only play that character with my spouse, and I don't PvP.
Only to get blinked, then rageraped and i ride off on my t3 mount into the sunset.
OP would be a VERY good CW. Ive only seen one or 2.
I can usually 2v1 most rogues my level range.
So no, I believe it is the other characters who are bad, not TRs being OP.
Ive met a few dudes who could also tank me, but they couldnt kill me. Id eventually win that fight if they didnt haul *** to backup.
I think WAR did this well. They balanced for pvp first and then the rest of the content around that. The thing is, I'm pretty sure this game is pve first-pvp tacked on and that is extremely hard to balance properly without getting the raid moms' estrogen-cannons all sandy. Eventually some extra stat gets thrown in for pvp and the whole thing becomes a big ol' complicated mess.
The TR just simply has too many tools, like the poster above listed. I like how half of the people hate/defend the TR but haven't even reached lvl 60 (nor did I, I am only lvl 42, but I have played about 30 PvP matches so far). The situation I have encountered is the following...
TR have a gap closer (teleports him behind the target)
TR have a silence/stun w/e which prevents you from doing anything but running for 3 seconds(ish) - yes it is dodge-able but who can dodge it 100% of the time?
TR have a slow they can put on you, which makes it a tad bit harder to kite, but it's ok imo
TR have a ranged attack - which kind of rounds out their kit - they gapclose and use the HUGE *** KNIFE - awsome burst, you kite etc etc, but at the end when I have zero HP he just stands still and throws his little knives and I am dead nontheless
TR are tougher than they look - not as tough as a GF or GWF but still
TR have their stealth - yes you can hear when they enter it but it is still a great great tool!
TR have dodge mechanic - which they can use to avoid a lot of CC from other classes
I think you are starting to see my point here...there is just too many skills and utilities for one class imo. They shouldn't be hitting the dmg part of it, he's a striker after all, but this many options to go - it's just unfair against other classes I think. Every class has it's strengths and it's weaknesses but the TR seems to have less of the latter
I had my ups and downs as a control wizzard. In some games I stomped in some games I GOT stomped. It feels a lot more balanced - every CC skill of mine is easy to dodge if you know when to do it
Just my two cents!
Anathera