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Please do not stack encounters and test your quest end to end after publishing
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Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
Today I have been busy trying to complete my foundry achievements, so have been trying to get a lot of foundry quests completed. I am planning on giving 500 astral diamonds to each half-way decent one I complete so I can get a foundry achievement.
Sadly I have been forced to abandon more than half of the quests I have taken! Now remember, if a quest is not completed, you do not get any feedback from the player. Thus, many of the quests are not getting as many ratings or reviews as people attempting to play them because the players cannot finish them.
The biggest culprit is that people are stacking mob encounters (making the player fight more than one encounter at a time). Sadly, the difficulty of the game is changing every patch, and it changes with level, and it changes with class. A stacked encounter which you can do easily on your level 10 rogue is probably very difficult for a level 60 rogue, and near impossible for a high level healer.
For example, the last quest I just did stacked 2 standard spider encounters. My cleric died, and then respawned with no campfire, so I used a kit. I try again. The spiders zerg me down. Now I have an injury an no way to heal it, and am facing combat I couldn't complete uninjured. So, I was forced to exit the quest.
No review, no plays, and no astral diamonds from me for that quest today! How many people who haven't been playing as long as I have had to abandon it too? We'll never know!
Another issue is untriggerable objects because they are out of line of sight; mobs that are unkillable because they are inside a wall, and things of that sort. You must play your quest after you publish it to ensure that that the story line can be completed! Published quests have different pathing AI from the foundry, and you might be surprised to find out how different things behave on the live server.
Test! Or, no reviews, no plays, and no astral diamonds for you!
Sadly I have been forced to abandon more than half of the quests I have taken! Now remember, if a quest is not completed, you do not get any feedback from the player. Thus, many of the quests are not getting as many ratings or reviews as people attempting to play them because the players cannot finish them.
The biggest culprit is that people are stacking mob encounters (making the player fight more than one encounter at a time). Sadly, the difficulty of the game is changing every patch, and it changes with level, and it changes with class. A stacked encounter which you can do easily on your level 10 rogue is probably very difficult for a level 60 rogue, and near impossible for a high level healer.
For example, the last quest I just did stacked 2 standard spider encounters. My cleric died, and then respawned with no campfire, so I used a kit. I try again. The spiders zerg me down. Now I have an injury an no way to heal it, and am facing combat I couldn't complete uninjured. So, I was forced to exit the quest.
No review, no plays, and no astral diamonds from me for that quest today! How many people who haven't been playing as long as I have had to abandon it too? We'll never know!
Another issue is untriggerable objects because they are out of line of sight; mobs that are unkillable because they are inside a wall, and things of that sort. You must play your quest after you publish it to ensure that that the story line can be completed! Published quests have different pathing AI from the foundry, and you might be surprised to find out how different things behave on the live server.
Test! Or, no reviews, no plays, and no astral diamonds for you!
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2-3xDeath-Witch
~12xMinions (respawned and healed by each witch)
~4-5xRandom mage or somthing in the group
The quest was/is advertised as with level 40+ you probably need two players to complete. I did it with level 25 and died 3 times without a campfire or anything. The monsters followed me up to the entrance, so I couldn't even run away.
Tried cleric and wolf companions, cost me ~20 heal potions etc.
No fun...
In the mean time, If you wish to test your quest on the live servers, make sure the quest description clearly states:
*THIS QUEST IS PUBLISHED ONLY FOR TESTING PURPOSES*
AI pathing elements are different on the live server, so this quest is published only to allow testing of the pathing. DO NOT PLAY this quest or rate/review. Thank You.
If your testing a quest that is already published, create a duplicate, and rename it to include the TEST identifier. that alone will scare away most players, and since it is a separate quest from the one that is published, it's ratings will not affect your published quest.
There are certain tell-tale signs that you are about to enter a mediocre to poor quest. One of them is stacked encounters. They can be used well, but in my experience rarely are.
Actually, that's interesting information to note. Personally, I've been doing quests on characters I have - which right now is a 26 cleric, 25 guardian fighter, and a 15 control wizard. I had started using mutliple mob encounters simply because with those characters at the time, anything less felt very trivial - 2 standard pulls on a level 26 cleric isn't something I sweat.
I'll have to rethink this and down-tune my quest a bit I think. It's worth nothing that given the foundry tools, the buggy author character with poor gear and no companion, it's not uprising there are some very difficult encounters. Things like The Draconis Pub are very popular because they spawn rooms full of silvers.
I did however play test my quest immediately after I published it and proved that I could solo it, and that it was working, for what that's worth
What would be the best leveled character to test the combat with, though? It'd be nice to have one go-to test level.
Also, soft launch, or be able to share a beta version with people in your friendslist or something, would be incredibly helpful
NW-DPTEETULF
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Also, as far as quests like the Pub go, remember that the Founders got souped-up gear and perks that make them much more powerful especially at lower levels. Most of the plays so far are from founders. New players are going to have a harder time, and need to do them in a group. I still expect those types of quests to be popular simply because guilds can use them to powerlevel 5 toons at a time; however that doesn't mean they will play your hard quest, since they already have their own.
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1.) The author has very limited control over the difficulty scaling of their quests, at least right now.
2.) Many authors create adventures that are simply not intended for solo play.
So basically, if the adventure is meant to be solo'd you won't find too much encounter stacking, if it's intended for small or full groups you will. Personally, I always include in the description what I recommend to enjoy the adventure. I would recommend everyone do likewise, but recommendations for completion is not its own required field (though I feel it should be).
So may I humbly suggest that instead of trying to persuade people to alter their adventures to make them an easy solo for everyone, perhaps request that the authors give a recommendation for completion, and go even a step further and ask Cryptic to put in a recommendation field that will also be searchable.
This just won't work. First, why would anyone run a healing build, with healing abilities to solo? Play to your strengths, if you're a healing cleric who goes into a dungeon with no one to heal, well, even the most dedicated HAMSTER probably wouldn't tolerate the slowness of that scenario for long.
So lets say that I tune my adventure for a healing cleric. Then everything else will roll it with no sense of challenge at all. Even a cleric, who wisely arranged themselves to put out at least moderate damage will steam roll the place.
I don't discount the possibility I might make a solo adventure that you will enjoy (or not enjoy, whichever.. lol), but when I have a vision of a quest that I want to build and play that's what I make. I won't compromise that particular quest by trying in vain to make it solo friendly while still trying to maintain some level of challenge for multiple characters, it can't happen with the things we currently have to work with. If we could make ground markers spawn or not based on who or better yet how many are in the group, then perhaps we could do more to accommodate different size groups, but at present I can't think of a good way to do that.
I have played many Foundry quests that were specifically built for solo play (I don't play group quests. It's just not my thing), and many of them stacked encounters routinely, as in just about every encounter. Also, a Foundry quest with no warning about it being a group quest in the description is assumed to be a solo quest and should be judged as such.
This discussion is about solo content. For group content all bets are off, and if that's what you want to discuss as regards to stacking, I don't think you're in the right thread.
I could be interpreting evakane's post wrong, but I think the point was that a healing cleric is the most mundane and useless build in all of Neverwinter , including GWF. To get a positive review, even the worst character (a solo healing cleric) must be able to at least complete the quest. In that case, imagine what a solo rogue would think of that same quest (too easy, no fun), or better yet, ANY type of group doing the same quest.
Some quests are simply built for groups, and stacked mobs is one way to increase difficulty. Some quests you might even find are built only for a Foundry author's friends to play through, complete with names and expected classes being referenced. In general, if you can't solo the mobs, get a friend. Likewise, the authors should say something in the desc like, "It's dangerous to go alone, take a friend!" if there are multiple stacks.
Yes. When I go in if I see a stacked encounter the first time I won;t even bother wasting my time: bail. I just hit the "exit" on the minimap and abort the quest from my journal. It is the "red flag" (for me) that this is a potion-spamming hack-n-whack combat-fest. Thank you, but no thank you. Just not my play style.
In (somewhat) defense of new authors: there is a major learning curve, not just in the Foundry tools, but also how the play experience translates from Foundry Preview to Live. These authors will learn quickly (I hope).
As to "test" publishing - When I do it, I just change the title of the quest to [Incomplete - Don't bother] - then I go in and test. Now that I have a level 33 Cleric I have a decent character to test with. I'll start my making the quest relatively easy. Then if I feel more challenge is needed, I'll go in and add a bit more. Rarely the other way around.
When I do publish a "final" version I always go conservative on challenge level. Then if I get a lot of reviews that say it felt too easy, I'll ramp it up a notch or two. At least this way I'm getting completed plays and reviews I can use.
As to the OP: I concur completely. Not only is to too difficult to deal with stacked encounters at mid-range to higher levels, it's completely unnecessary.
THEN SAY SO.
This is the problem - if you create a quest for multiplayer - SAY SO.
I've been doing Foundry works for almost three years in STO and I am fortunate to be a silverstar so I got a head-start on it here. Sure, the author has no control over power-balancing, but the author DOES have control over which encounters he chooses.
Lokk, the old mantra that only one in every few hundred Foundry works will be really god is true - not because a story sucks, or because there are bugs (i.e. Encounters stuck in the walls or something) - but because the Author doesn't have a clear understanding of how his work will affect the majority of players.
Now allow me to qualify the above statement: "good" is relative. So the above statement is from the perspective of the player, not the quest itself. What's great for me may suck for you. We all understand that. All I'm saying is this: use your Quest description *wisely* - be as verbose as possible. Tell players exactly what they're in for.
Sure, a lot of players won;t read all that stuff - but those are the players looking for straight-action and loove the idea of impossible-to-kill stacked encounters. But there are even more people who *will* read the description in full as they go through the list Quest-shopping the Foundry.
This is how I took the comment also - and I think it's a good suggestion, except I'd change one thing: the perfect "testing" character on like would be a mid-range DC - around level 30-40 - primarily because a level 60 character will (often) have the best gear and more powerful abilities. However a mid-range DC (or any class) is at their weakest in terms of the context of this discussion, because they may certainly not have the best gear for their level and are still in "transition" from start to finish leveling-wise.
Seriously, though: I did a Foundry quest where every encounter spawned AFTER you walked past it - and they were too close to each other - so you run along, encounter spawns then chases you (you don;t notice) by the time they catch up to you you've already triggered the next batch or two - get three stacks going. Then there was the end encounter - three stacked "medium" difficulty and a Hero Hulk - it took me six (SIX!) fricken' respawns to complete it. (I was only level 26 at the time). I would have bailed, but I was determined to finish just so I could rant in the review box.
Now: one stacked encounter and I bail.
Just remember, you will never please everyone with your quests. Out of 5K reviews, 2500 say there is not enough combat and 2500 say it is too hard. Balance it out with other things... like a great story or detailed map. Grab your stars that way. I prefer moderate combat that a player can survive so that they can actually put in a review.
Once again, remember that you WILL NOT please everyone.
@kmhknight
My campaign: The Madness Plague.
My quest: Blacklake Gold
My guild: "The Older" Age 30+, Casual
I almost never stack encounters. When I do, it's to make an encounter stand out, and I'm always very careful about it. Stacking an easy encounter with a standard one can be fine with some care and as an exception, but expect this fight to be the hardest in your quest (the spider fight in A Hidden Blade is like this, for example). In The Lanaar Legacy I stack encounters regularly in the outdoors street section of the quest, but this is because the player is accompanied by friendly soldiers in almost every fight there. Only one of the fights where the player is alone is stacked, and that's two easy encounters (don't underestimate these! They can be brutal at high levels).
So take this into consideration: If my quests, featuring a minimum of encounter stacking, are called "very challenging" by a large amount of players, what does that tell you about quests that feature plenty of stacking?
While I have heard some of my fights are pretty hard on 60, I have had some people run through them and find them challenging, but also quite expensive health potion wise.
I have spent most of my time in foundry since the 27th last month, and my highest character is lvl 18, so testing out stuff for higher levels does get tricky.
I agree with this so much. Quests should be clearly marked if for solo or group play, and should be searchable as such.
I played a quest that started out seeming good, but then escalated to the point where the tavern area had so many major mobs all attacking me that i ended up dead a lot. Felt like a group quest, but no mention. The reviews said it was a harder quest, but not why.
My comments pertain to this thread just fine Tilt. So go pretend to moderate somewhere else... As for me wanting to discuss group content, did you even read what I wrote? I offered the OP insight and a possible remedy to his complaint regarding difficulty that would also help the Foundry content be more searchable and organized.
I play how I want, when I want, and I don't really care if it's "not in line with the developers." You clearly don't have any idea what my playstyle is about, and your assertion that the developers don't want people to expect this game to actually be an MMO is contradicted not only in the game itself, but also in the changes that have come into play since the beginning of closed beta. So I really don't think you are qualified to second guess either of these items.
Now, on the matter of the 60 healing cleric, which is not a solo arrangement, I'm sorry but it's not, if it were they wouldn't be discouraged with that -40% self healing debuff.. Let me try this another way, since my clean concise english isn't getting the job done. Try this:
A man is building himself a new deck, and you wander up. You see that the man is standing there trying to drive a 10 penny nail into a deck board with a table spoon, while a perfectly good hammer is sitting not 2 feet from him, looking lonely and unused.
Would you:
A.) Take the man to the hardware store, and complain that the nails they sold him were not nearly sharp enough for him to drive them in with his tablespoon? Then when they looked at you like you were a nutcase, picket the store because they wouldn't sharpen their nails so this poor fool would have an easier time building his deck with his tablespoon?
or
B.) Tell the guy to put the tablespoon back in the kitchen and use the fraqin hammer?
or
C.) Tell the guy to take that tablespoon in the kitchen, use it to cook you a good meal, and you'll use the hammer to work on the deck.
The right tool for the job, that's all I'm saying...
In my post I think I make myself pretty clear on my thoughts regarding proper advertising. That still assumes the person playing actually takes the time to read what's written there, and if not it's no ones fault but their own.
So you are in full agreement then?
....Does this really need commentary?
What is it that makes people think they know better than Cryptic when it comes to game balance? What is it that makes someone go "oh surely this can't be right. This Hard encounter doesn't look hard at all" and then smack down multiple of them on top of each other to compensate? What's with the hubris?
I dropped most of those quests when I saw where they were heading, then sent a mail to the authors to explain the problems with their quests. It's a shame too. A couple of them looked absolutely brilliant. The one I did get through I rated low with a clear description of why. Unplayable, and worst of all unfun.
I hope this was just bad luck and that it doesn't mark a trend among authors. If I have to blindly stumble into stacked encounters in 3 of 4 quests forever, I'm going to seriously lose all my interest in playing other people's content, and that would be a bloody shame.
What on earth does that have to do with this thread?
So yes, I sympathize with you on badly designed quests that aren't fun. But that's not because they have encounter stacking, it's because they are badly designed quests. Encounter stacking is just one element.
Oh, and Cryptic does want us doing content in groups. Otherwise they wouldn't have a party system or dungeons
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But now you can change your test character. I suggest (and use) a level 31 cleric for testing difficulty under worst case scenario. They did say they would and could add higher level testing specs, so hopefully they'll keep going up with them.
Search by shortcode, it seems to be the only search option working for newly published or republished quests (within the last few days). The shortcode is the NW-123485etc ID that shows up in the summary/overview area in the first tab in the Foundry.
Some mobs get more powerful at the higher levels. Believe it or not, 26-ish is not too high. One of the Mind Flayer "hard" encounters do not start getting hard until about level 30. Likewise, I also think SOME people may want EZMODE all the time. Inversely, you may be a pro at your character and have all the uber purple epics for your level - while someone else may be new and have whites and green equipment SEVERAL levels lower than themselves and the mobs. Lastly, I would also suggest if you plan on grouping "HARD" encounters in your foundry quest you tell people upfront it is difficult and may make a suggested size of 2+companions. I created a foundry mission where I could solo it... at level 31 and 32, but i purposely put in the description that it was a difficult, fight intensive, and meant for a group. I also mentioned it was hard and I recommended 3+Companions. Would you believe all the one stars that i talked to... were solo players. Go figure. Reading and comprehension for the win?
tilt42, I have read the entire thread and did not see where this was intended for solo content. The suggestion that you not stack encounters and test from end to end is just advice. Testing from end to end seems solid advice for solo or group content and depending on level or difficulty desired not stacking encounters could apply to either solo or group content as well. As with all tools they will only help so much in the end its up to the craftsman to judge his work, and then the populace at large as his creation is consumed. Just my 2 cents. Peace and thanks to all the users churning out content. Thus far everything I have run has been enjoyable. Some easy some hard but still fun.
I can't say I'm surprised 26 isn't too high. What I think really caught me off guard was this idea that encounters at level 1 are much EASIER than at level 35. I think the problem was with 2 basic assumptions I had:
1 - The developer was smart enough to make monsters scale evenly. If my level 26 can do it, so can a 45, ect.
2 - And furthermore, as I get to higher level, I will have more tools, and more power at my disposal. This will further decrease the difficulty.
The second piece of the puzzle is that I was chatting with my friend about my quest, and his initial feedback was that it was too easy because there was nothing really he had to CC actively to live. Without something large to kill him, it was too easy, and so version 2 with evil monsters of doom was born
Obviously, this isn't the case. If I think about this in a somewhat logical manner, I would think this: If a level 1 guardian fighter with no companion and only an auto attack can solo my quest, a level 45 with a companion should have no issues. That's the dissonance that's going on right now. Also, all I have published was my very first quest, like many of the other authors on here right now. It's good that this thread is here, it let's me know I should rethink the difficulty a bit.
My final bit of curiosity - is it possible to enable or disable spawns based on a text selection made early in the quest? That way we can establish multiple difficulties based on a dialog selection made at the start. This would let me make my nice hard 2 man quest, but still tune it down for a solo player to enjoy. I feel that is the real solution to this problem, configurable difficulties.