The question is How hard is it to get that endgame gear or something equivalent stat wise (it looking cooler doesn't count) if you were to not spend any money at all?
Pay 2 Win doesn't exactly mean being able to buy advantages. It means being able to buy advantages that aren't moderately accessible otherwise.
For example in GW2 you could buy cash shop currency and sell it for in-game currency, and sure if you spent hundreds to do so you could get that out of this world looking legendary weapon but the stat difference was practically nothing compared to an exotic which was pretty **** easy to get along with the rest of the exotic gear. So even though you could basically buy gold (in-game currency) it was set up specifically to not matter that much. And anybody that could call gw2 pay to win with a straight face is either ignorant or an idiot.
The question is how is it set up here? Wait until you actually hit 60 and figure out exactly how hard it will be for you to get the same stat gear as any cash shop buyer before you call pay to win. If it is then it is, and it very well could be. However the simple fact that you aren't level capped yet and don't really know makes crying pay to win way too premature to be taken seriously.
So I have said this before.
It's not P2W in the traditional sense of buying something that isnt available in the game.
But it will be classified as P2W because as the scummy disgusting companies that adopt these business models change around, it doesnt escape notice of the customer. They are still using cheap tactics to force you into the cash shop, such as not being able to throw away lockboxes, but instead forced to sell them on the AH which makes you spend AD to throw something away. Rez scrolls only in the case shop and clerics not having the iconic ability of Raise Dead/Ressurection.
This is much the same way that Open World PVP....used to mean...PVP anywhere in the whole game world. But now, game devs will say they have open world PVP and they mean one zone that has open PVP. SWTOR did this very exact thing, and then went so far as to purposefully segregate the two factions to the point you had to go out of your way to find the opposing faction to PVP with them in the zone, except for a small area.
So, we can throw around jargon and lingo all day. What matters is that people will brand this game as P2W because unlike actual F2P games, they arent F2P, they are free for them to hassle the every living f*ck out of you to get you to waste money with them.
F2P game = Path of Exile. Take a lesson Cryptic.
I am not sure what you are talking about. Outside of the nightmare chests, I haven't found anything asking my to pay money.
Either you are seeing something that I'm not, or you have some kind of grudge.
Now, show me on the doll where the F2P touched you...
Problem is mindless consumers. Look at the BIGGEST P2W game PWI. I was paid by a guild to play (friend of mine) because we owned all territory by a Canadian farmer who got salaried by government and was able to slap 5K a month to support us all in game. We rocked PW Malaysia (only english server back then and considered "international"). Then it got slow to no support so they came here and did they same. Biggest Irony, the PWI was to easy to level and the P2W people got mad that noobs F2P got their level and then thrust their hands out for freebies, while the P2W, even though winning...had worked hard and played an entirely different game at launch. So they left. Leaving the territories and cash to be supported by other kids with credit cards. So yeah.... that is one example of many...and how these games do not go away that easy. I say find the truly F2P models where payment is optional (TERA, AION US, Warframe, etc) this is just another <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> shoot where people think they are the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> but really they are cold diahreah
This debait will likely go on and on. As will the predictions of the game failuring. This happens we most mmo's these days. If you don't like the game why bother with it?
I am not sure what you are talking about. Outside of the nightmare chests, I haven't found anything asking my to pay money.
Either you are seeing something that I'm not, or you have some kind of grudge.
Now, show me on the doll where the F2P touched you...
Try to throw them away.
*points slowly towards his wallet*
*a sinister light glints in eyes* they tried to touch there...then I grabbed their hand and cut it off. Promptly slapping them across their face with the offensive appendage leaving a smear of their own blood across their cheeks and seeping into their opened mouth, causing their scream of anquish to abruptly end in a choked gurgle.
If I havent offended you today....dont worry!!!....there's always tomorrow. Of course, you could also go to here for all I care.
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crusnxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This debait will likely go on and on. As will the predictions of the game failuring. This happens we most mmo's these days. If you don't like the game why bother with it?
Who said that we don't like the game? We like the game. That is why we are here. What we don't like is P2W model that goes with it. Im still not able to log in so I can't say if it actually is P2W. But with just one look at cash shop items you can usually tell if it is or isn't.
So this thread is basically a circle-jerk for those that share your definition of P2W?
I, like many here, disagree with your premise and thus find the rest of the argument failing from the base assumption.
P2W to me is when paying gets you combat/power advantages that playing for free does not allow one to attain/achieve.
Paying to decrease grind is not P2W, no matter how severe the grind is.
Everything in the game is attainable with in-game play, including Zen.
Wrong, the winning here is leading servers (or just in rival guilds) on downing content. There IS competition in PvE, even if you put your hands over your eyes and ears and refuse to acknowledge it.
It can be directly linked to football, football in most countries is not P2W, the people with the most money win.
(The guy above is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> head.)
Okay, so you can spend real money on Zen, and use Zen to buy Astral Diamonds, and Astral Diamonds to buy epic gear for level 60...
You can also get AD in game through various methods
This game isn't P2W. It's Pay 2 Cap faster than everyone else.. And that's not a problem in the least I think
You spend moments power leveling on a brand new game? You won't play your character very well anyway. Enjoy the months before level cap gets increased and you have nothing to do.
~They are Lions, and I am their Shepherd~
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sasheriaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
First off I hope this is not deleted but I expect it will be.
My first point is the developer of this game does not understand or has a very different definition of P2W than what it actually means.
As far as I know P2W is "Pay to win" it means if you have unlimited resources you can "pay" to buy an advantage over those that don't.
..and I have NEVER played a bigger P2W game than NW. I am lvl 55 at the time of this writing. I will be lvl 60 before early access ends for the 3 day pass. This in itself does not bode well but what is worse is the fact I was passed by people not even leaving town. Yes you can hit 60 in a matter of hours by spending AD's to speed up crafting and getting XP.
Now that alone is not really a problem, but the fact is you can buy Zen and trade it for AD's to purchase gear from the AH giving a HUGE advantage in any competitive forum, be it PvE or PvP. From buying things to boost DPS or health or even resurrecting after death at the spot you died!
----
Ultimately i'm not that bothered tbh, I DID enjoy and will still enjoy the game for while, however I HIGHLY doubt this title has ANY longevity at all and expect it to crash and burn as the biggest P2W game of all time. Other games in the future will compared to this and not in a favourable light.
I agree with the OP, this game is VERY HEAVY P2W. The fact that Auction house items are sold via AD's is just mind blowing. Worst decision ever by this gaming studio, very disappointing.
Back to WoW i go, to bad, NW seemed to have potential
First off I hope this is not deleted but I expect it will be.
My first point is the developer of this game does not understand or has a very different definition of P2W than what it actually means.
As far as I know P2W is "Pay to win" it means if you have unlimited resources you can "pay" to buy an advantage over those that don't.
..and I have NEVER played a bigger P2W game than NW. I am lvl 55 at the time of this writing. I will be lvl 60 before early access ends for the 3 day pass. This in itself does not bode well but what is worse is the fact I was passed by people not even leaving town. Yes you can hit 60 in a matter of hours by spending AD's to speed up crafting and getting XP.
Now that alone is not really a problem, but the fact is you can buy Zen and trade it for AD's to purchase gear from the AH giving a HUGE advantage in any competitive forum, be it PvE or PvP. From buying things to boost DPS or health or even resurrecting after death at the spot you died!
----
Ultimately i'm not that bothered tbh, I DID enjoy and will still enjoy the game for while, however I HIGHLY doubt this title has ANY longevity at all and expect it to crash and burn as the biggest P2W game of all time. Other games in the future will compared to this and not in a favourable light.
This isn't pay to win, this is pay for convenience. Every game with an in-game market has it, whether it be a subscription based game, or a free to play game. What people buy on the AH still has to be put up by people who found it, and who cares about how fast someone levels. You almost hit level cap before Early Access ended without paying, I assume?
Pay to Win is paying money for an actual advantage over other players. Exclusive, Item-Shop only powerful gear that's better than anything a Non paying player can loot, craft, or buy off an AH. Allods is a GREAT free to play game, but it borders on Pay2Win because of a Buff that costs money (Or you can get the buff for 24 Hours by doing a daily quest, hence why I say Borders on it). This buff gives +100% (And then some depending on its level) to Damage and Healing done. That's Pay2Win
I think a simple fix is to allow AD's to be bought with in-game currency AND real life money. Guild Wars 2 does this, and it works fantastically well
Wrong, the winning here is leading servers (or just in rival guilds) on downing content. There IS competition in PvE, even if you put your hands over your eyes and ears and refuse to acknowledge it.
It can be directly linked to football, football in most countries is not P2W, the people with the most money win.
(The guy above is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> head.)
There is no leaderboards.
Am I the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> head?
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
LoL @ all these idiots that dont know what P2W ACTUALLY means
1. pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
NW has officially beaten out Diablo 3 in terms of paytowin exploitation. NW could have easily sustained itself as a F2P game with simple cosmetic/vanity cash shop items. They did not choose to go that route, however. This game is systematically designed with milking $$ out of the whole playerbase demographic. Not only impatient "want it all now" kiddies are potential victims...hardcore players and casuals alike will be faced with the microtransaction question almost immediately. Items which have been constants in other games (f2p and non) are heavily monetized here. It's a shame too since this game was decently developed and the gameplay seems semi-satisfying (probally as a filler MMORPG in small chunks). The grind is far to long for the conversion so I see NW as being a more casual, shorter game session experience then. It is definitely not the right choice for a new timesink imo. my 2 cents.
How does leveling faster directly affect your enjoyment of the game? See, that's where the p2w, at least from a pve standpoint, argument is flawed. P2W exists only in a pvp environment, where my purchases can directly affect your enjoyment of the game.
Since you can earn premium currency by playing the game this game CANNOT be P2W. P2W means you can spend money to get an advantage over people who don't. Problem is, people who don't spend money can still get the same advantage.
You do know that Cryptic really really loved pay to win stuff right? I mean, take a look at STO. The ships you can buy from that store or with the keys for the lockboxes are SOOOOO much better then the POS you get with the dilithium.
First off I hope this is not deleted but I expect it will be.
My first point is the developer of this game does not understand or has a very different definition of P2W than what it actually means.
As far as I know P2W is "Pay to win" it means if you have unlimited resources you can "pay" to buy an advantage over those that don't.
..and I have NEVER played a bigger P2W game than NW. I am lvl 55 at the time of this writing. I will be lvl 60 before early access ends for the 3 day pass. This in itself does not bode well but what is worse is the fact I was passed by people not even leaving town. Yes you can hit 60 in a matter of hours by spending AD's to speed up crafting and getting XP.
Now that alone is not really a problem, but the fact is you can buy Zen and trade it for AD's to purchase gear from the AH giving a HUGE advantage in any competitive forum, be it PvE or PvP. From buying things to boost DPS or health or even resurrecting after death at the spot you died!
----
Ultimately i'm not that bothered tbh, I DID enjoy and will still enjoy the game for while, however I HIGHLY doubt this title has ANY longevity at all and expect it to crash and burn as the biggest P2W game of all time. Other games in the future will compared to this and not in a favourable light.
Well your idea of play to win is wrong to start off with. Pay to win means having an UNFAIR advantage over another person who can not over come this advantage through normal gameplay. So that makes your whole point invalid.
I don't know of many F2P games that don't have some form of what you describe, SWTOR, Eve Online, Even WOW to an extent with purchasing pets that can be sold in the auction house, Tera Online, Guild Wars. Honestly right now I can't think of one Pay to play or free to play that doesn't have some form of this.
Comments
Pay 2 Win doesn't exactly mean being able to buy advantages. It means being able to buy advantages that aren't moderately accessible otherwise.
For example in GW2 you could buy cash shop currency and sell it for in-game currency, and sure if you spent hundreds to do so you could get that out of this world looking legendary weapon but the stat difference was practically nothing compared to an exotic which was pretty **** easy to get along with the rest of the exotic gear. So even though you could basically buy gold (in-game currency) it was set up specifically to not matter that much. And anybody that could call gw2 pay to win with a straight face is either ignorant or an idiot.
The question is how is it set up here? Wait until you actually hit 60 and figure out exactly how hard it will be for you to get the same stat gear as any cash shop buyer before you call pay to win. If it is then it is, and it very well could be. However the simple fact that you aren't level capped yet and don't really know makes crying pay to win way too premature to be taken seriously.
I am not sure what you are talking about. Outside of the nightmare chests, I haven't found anything asking my to pay money.
Either you are seeing something that I'm not, or you have some kind of grudge.
Now, show me on the doll where the F2P touched you...
*points slowly towards his wallet*
*a sinister light glints in eyes* they tried to touch there...then I grabbed their hand and cut it off. Promptly slapping them across their face with the offensive appendage leaving a smear of their own blood across their cheeks and seeping into their opened mouth, causing their scream of anquish to abruptly end in a choked gurgle.
Who said that we don't like the game? We like the game. That is why we are here. What we don't like is P2W model that goes with it. Im still not able to log in so I can't say if it actually is P2W. But with just one look at cash shop items you can usually tell if it is or isn't.
Wrong, the winning here is leading servers (or just in rival guilds) on downing content. There IS competition in PvE, even if you put your hands over your eyes and ears and refuse to acknowledge it.
It can be directly linked to football, football in most countries is not P2W, the people with the most money win.
(The guy above is a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> head.)
You can also get AD in game through various methods
This game isn't P2W. It's Pay 2 Cap faster than everyone else.. And that's not a problem in the least I think
You spend moments power leveling on a brand new game? You won't play your character very well anyway. Enjoy the months before level cap gets increased and you have nothing to do.
Please review my campaign and I'll return the favor.
I agree with the OP, this game is VERY HEAVY P2W. The fact that Auction house items are sold via AD's is just mind blowing. Worst decision ever by this gaming studio, very disappointing.
Back to WoW i go, to bad, NW seemed to have potential
This isn't pay to win, this is pay for convenience. Every game with an in-game market has it, whether it be a subscription based game, or a free to play game. What people buy on the AH still has to be put up by people who found it, and who cares about how fast someone levels. You almost hit level cap before Early Access ended without paying, I assume?
Pay to Win is paying money for an actual advantage over other players. Exclusive, Item-Shop only powerful gear that's better than anything a Non paying player can loot, craft, or buy off an AH. Allods is a GREAT free to play game, but it borders on Pay2Win because of a Buff that costs money (Or you can get the buff for 24 Hours by doing a daily quest, hence why I say Borders on it). This buff gives +100% (And then some depending on its level) to Damage and Healing done. That's Pay2Win
I think a simple fix is to allow AD's to be bought with in-game currency AND real life money. Guild Wars 2 does this, and it works fantastically well
There is no leaderboards.
Am I the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> head?
Centurion maximus92
12th Legion, Romulan Republic
12th Fleet
=\/= ================================ =\/=
You do know that Cryptic really really loved pay to win stuff right? I mean, take a look at STO. The ships you can buy from that store or with the keys for the lockboxes are SOOOOO much better then the POS you get with the dilithium.
Well your idea of play to win is wrong to start off with. Pay to win means having an UNFAIR advantage over another person who can not over come this advantage through normal gameplay. So that makes your whole point invalid.
I don't know of many F2P games that don't have some form of what you describe, SWTOR, Eve Online, Even WOW to an extent with purchasing pets that can be sold in the auction house, Tera Online, Guild Wars. Honestly right now I can't think of one Pay to play or free to play that doesn't have some form of this.