fail out of players perspective? probably
fail out of economic perspective? doubt it, just look around how many (lets be nice...)"people" bought founder packs
In this game I honestly don't see how any of this stupid pay to win BS matters, who gives a wooden nickle if the guy next to you spent his pay check to get ahead. Why does it even matter, just how does he being ahead affect your ability to play the game and/or enjoy it.
Simply put, it doesn't unless you let it.
This makes it a personal problem existing solely with YOU and you inability to get over it.
Life isn't fair princess so I suggest you eat a bag of cement and harden the hell up.
/applaud!!!
Thank you for saying what myself and many others are thinking. This whole P2W BS is ridiculous.
though nothing the OP said is bad/wrong, you are missing the point. P2W means you can literally buy what you NEED from the store, in this game you can buy currency and use it to get stuff off the auction house... every single f2p game allows this, especially since in this game nothing great can be bought from the auction house... all the good stuff is dropped/looted/earned thru other currency, so for endgame this game really isnt P2W, yes it is pay for speed (ie getting 60 within 5 hours) but honestly, everyone will hit 60 so who cares how fast it takes?
honestly, even if you can buy starter lvl 60 gear in the store this wouldnt be pay to win, age of conan let you buy rank 4 pvp gear at max lvl (80) from the store and since there were 10 ranks of gear it wasnt a big deal at all, hell no one even complained since you outranked that area so fast it didnt matter. this game is way less P2W than age of conan... but i digress, this game has a lot of things worth buying in the store which other games dont meaning it's a huge money sink which is a good thing, it means the game will be healthy etc...
What is democrazy? It is a government in which the ruling power is given to whoever is most skillful at directing the herd instincts of the largest masses of their most ignorant citizens.
--Nom Anor
though nothing the OP said is bad/wrong, you are missing the point. P2W means you can literally buy what you NEED from the store, in this game you can buy currency and use it to get stuff off the auction house... every single f2p game allows this, especially since in this game nothing great can be bought from the auction house... all the good stuff is dropped/looted/earned thru other currency, so for endgame this game really isnt P2W, yes it is pay for speed (ie getting 60 within 5 hours) but honestly, everyone will hit 60 so who cares how fast it takes?
honestly, even if you can buy starter lvl 60 gear in the store this wouldnt be pay to win, age of conan let you buy rank 4 pvp gear at max lvl (80) from the store and since there were 10 ranks of gear it wasnt a big deal at all, hell no one even complained since you outranked that area so fast it didnt matter. this game is way less P2W than age of conan... but i digress, this game has a lot of things worth buying in the store which other games dont meaning it's a huge money sink which is a good thing, it means the game will be healthy etc...
sure it is. in pve this means you can buy the best raid buffs/consumables from the store as well as tier 1 raid gear since that is what you need to raid. in pvp it means you can buy the best weapons/armor as well as pvp usable consumables which are simply OP if available. otherwise what are you winning? it's pay to win, not pay to max lvl... only by having the best stuff ever and beating your opponents are you winning anything...
What is democrazy? It is a government in which the ruling power is given to whoever is most skillful at directing the herd instincts of the largest masses of their most ignorant citizens.
--Nom Anor
sure it is. in pve this means you can buy the best raid buffs/consumables from the store as well as tier 1 raid gear since that is what you need to raid. in pvp it means you can buy the best weapons/armor as well as pvp usable consumables which are simply OP if available. otherwise what are you winning? it's pay to win, not pay to max lvl... only by having the best stuff ever and beating your opponents are you winning anything...
The P2W originated from mostly Asian games where you could buy best gear which gave people considerable advantage in PVE as well as PVP.
Merely buying xp boosts or cosmetic items to look good isn't P2W. What advantage are you getting from cash shop in NW right now which makes it P2W?
Pay to win means that, no matter how hard you try, you can't get things as good as what I pay for without paying. Since this situation does not exist in this game, At All, there is no pay to win. That's it. That's the end. You CAN get everything in the game without paying. EVERYTHING. I may be able to get it faster than you, but that has NO bearing on your gameplay. Grow up please.
In this game I honestly don't see how any of this stupid pay to win BS matters, who gives a wooden nickle if the guy next to you spent his pay check to get ahead. Why does it even matter, just how does he being ahead affect your ability to play the game and/or enjoy it.
It's a matter of preserving the appeal of getting those things the traditional way. If it were possible to just swing your mastercard and get the best items in the game that way, it'll be very hard for anybody else to justify working hard to do it. It's not as if a strong MMORPG character has some real life purpose or value, it's just a game that people play. If the effort of getting that gear is perceived to be pointless because the next guy might simply have bought it, it kills the reason most people have for playing MMORPGs in the first place. It's a genre where much of the incentive is centered around a look-what-I've-accomplished feeling, the pride and bragging rights of having got the best gear in the game and so on.
Microtransaction games also tend to design gameplay around their cash shop. Some don't, such as Path of Exile, while others make it so the game is barely enjoyable if you try to play it for free because everything is made to take a prohibitively long time to get the natural way. It remains to be seen whether or not this is true in Neverwinter, but it usually is to some extent in cash grab MMORPGs. We're in a time when the games are developed 90% for the profit and 10% for the love of making games, and it shows. It's the reason game after game dies out within a few months of being released. People have good reason to be wary of Neverwinter and its suspiciously heavy emphasis on the cash shop.
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Literal definition 1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
So in summation no it is not Pay to win because exactly the same thing that players that play without paying get
Literal definition 1. pay-to-win Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
So in summation no it is not Pay to win because exactly the same thing that players that play without paying get
And people will still call it P2W anyways no matter how much what you wrote is true. Every single forum that i have visited is calling NW a P2W game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think the OP is being a bit hypocritical by complaining about P2W.
I will be lvl 60 before early access ends for the 3 day pass.
Stating above did you not pay to get in and receive all those perks, mount, weapon, etc.. ?? Doesn't that give YOU an advantage over those that didn't?
I too paid for early access so please don't think this is sour grapes. The perks for using RL cash are tempting to speed up the process of certain in game thing, nightmare boxes, etc.. And that is the point. They WANT you to be tempted as they need your money, NOW. Those willing to pay will get it now. The rest will get the same thing just a bit later. The only advantage I see is you get you candy first. Which to me is a waste. What's the sense of having your candy if you can't share the experience with others? Isn't that the point of an MMO in the first place?
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think the OP is being a bit hypocritical by complaining about P2W.
Stating above did you not pay to get in and receive all those perks, mount, weapon, etc.. ?? Doesn't that give YOU an advantage over those that didn't?
nothing more than convenience and has no actual benefits other than how long YOU will enjoy the game
I too paid for early access so please don't think this is sour grapes. The perks for using RL cash are tempting to speed up the process of certain in game thing, nightmare boxes, etc.. And that is the point. They WANT you to be tempted as they need your money, NOW. Those willing to pay will get it now. The rest will get the same thing just a bit later. The only advantage I see is you get you candy first. Which to me is a waste. What's the sense of having your candy if you can't share the experience with others? Isn't that the point of an MMO in the first place?
yeah do you have Better gear than anyone else can get because you paid? can you do more damage/heal more than anyone else that didn't pay? The best gear in the game is available to everyone paying or non
makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
There are already games out there that are using the same exact method and are not considered failures so I doubt than NW will. What I am concerned about is whether I 'm able to eventually (and after farming) be on par with a guy that is spending money for this game. What I'm asking is: do the people that pay get more powerfull items than those that don't or they just get the items faster?
Wtf do you care what another player does. it does not affect you unless you want to pvp only.
**** PW and there zen, and there master keys that open boxes full of ****. I wish Cryptic never joined up with PW, they suck.
conveniences?! half the **** in STO if you want you HAVE to buy from there over priced zen store. There zen prices are jacked everyone knows it, don't try and say different.
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thevlakaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
it's pwe.
Their track record for drowning games in cash shop is number one.
Still trying to understand why they'd make epic dungeon class drops BOE...
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thevlakaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
P2W is when you can buy gear and items to buff up stats. that is the only true definition.
B2P is when you need to purchase product first with no other fees.
F2P is when you download, install, and play with no fees required.
Haven't check the AH and the tonne of level 60 epics on there have ya?
That r
if you spend money to save time your not giving your toon any other advantage.
you sir do not know the definitions I'm sorry to say.
btw I have spent money to get keys and character slots by which supports the game to make more content. this is what your money goes towards.
Go check the AH for level 60 epic dungeons armour and weapons then come back to this thread.
The game is p2w.
Go check the AH for level 60 epic dungeons armour and weapons then come back to this thread.
The game is p2w.
No it isn't. You get AD in game without paying a dime. AD is used as AH currency. It's pay for convenience/expedience. You don't seem to understand what pay to win is.
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No it isn't. You get AD in game without paying a dime. AD is used as AH currency. It's pay for convenience/expedience. You don't seem to understand what pay to win is.
And how far do you think 24k a day gets you? level 60 gear from vendor is 2m ad. Do the math. Just because I can walk to work doesn't mean the price of gas isn't too high. The "logic" some people use to justify wanting to P2W. Also anyone who thinks the actions of others have zero effect on you in an MMO are amazingly short sighted or just naive.
And how far do you think 24k a day gets you? level 60 gear from vendor is 2m ad. Do the math. Just because I can walk to work doesn't mean the price of gas isn't too high. The "logic" some people use to justify wanting to P2W. Also anyone who thinks the actions of others have zero effect on you in an MMO are amazingly short sighted or just naive.
You are still failing to realize... this is not P2W, regardless of how you feel about the time you may need to invest.
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alfirielshiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 1Arc User
I'm sorry.....did you just say getting to 60 super fast by wasting tons of real life money on AD to craft faster and miss all of the content in between equals....."winning"? ROFL.
exactly my thought when i read this **** ... poor little ******* doesnt know that the way is the goal.
on a sidenote .... the kids call that here grind today ? lol.... you never played a grinding game ... i wish this game had some grind adding to his longlivity.
So this thread is basically a circle-jerk for those that share your definition of P2W?
I, like many here, disagree with your premise and thus find the rest of the argument failing from the base assumption.
P2W to me is when paying gets you combat/power advantages that playing for free does not allow one to attain/achieve.
Paying to decrease grind is not P2W, no matter how severe the grind is.
Everything in the game is attainable with in-game play, including Zen.
And anyone complaining about this game's grind is fairly new to MMOs, you kids don't know grind.
Now if this was a topic about reducing grind... perhaps by making the AD to Zen ratio 40-400 (instead of 50-500 as it is now), that is a different topic. It is a discussion about reducing the grind and not about whether the game is P2W.
To further your point here, people should have tried out Everquest when it first began (if anyone even remembers it). That was a horrible grind, yet still fun.
To further your point here, if you really want a terrible grind go back to beginning Everquest days (if anyone even remembers it). That was horrible, yet still had fun somehow ha.
This. Grinding mobs for a week to gain 1 level. That was rough.
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archanjo17041985Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
this is pay to win :
you can make your gear +1 / +2 / +3 / +4 - +12
and there are runes on the item shop that allows you to get the piece of gear to +12 with no fail
you can increase the tier of your gear with combined runes, and there are runes already to buy directly from the item shop.
you can buy daily reset with credit card so you can level every alt to max in 4 or 5 hours
your gear breaks when you die, and if it is a low durability gear you have to buy with credit card hammers to make it high durability untill you die again
Lots will now what company im talking about here.
cof* runewaker cof*
i7 3770k @ 4.0//HD 7950 WF3//16 GB ram Corsair @ 1600//Corsair 120 GB SSD x 2//Hyper Evo 212
So I have said this before.
It's not P2W in the traditional sense of buying something that isnt available in the game.
But it will be classified as P2W because as the scummy disgusting companies that adopt these business models change around, it doesnt escape notice of the customer. They are still using cheap tactics to force you into the cash shop, such as not being able to throw away lockboxes, but instead forced to sell them on the AH which makes you spend AD to throw something away. Rez scrolls only in the case shop and clerics not having the iconic ability of Raise Dead/Ressurection.
This is much the same way that Open World PVP....used to mean...PVP anywhere in the whole game world. But now, game devs will say they have open world PVP and they mean one zone that has open PVP. SWTOR did this very exact thing, and then went so far as to purposefully segregate the two factions to the point you had to go out of your way to find the opposing faction to PVP with them in the zone, except for a small area.
So, we can throw around jargon and lingo all day. What matters is that people will brand this game as P2W because unlike actual F2P games, they arent F2P, they are free for them to hassle the every living f*ck out of you to get you to waste money with them.
F2P game = Path of Exile. Take a lesson Cryptic.
If I havent offended you today....dont worry!!!....there's always tomorrow. Of course, you could also go to here for all I care.
Since you can earn premium currency by playing the game this game CANNOT be P2W. P2W means you can spend money to get an advantage over people who don't. Problem is, people who don't spend money can still get the same advantage.
Comments
fail out of economic perspective? doubt it, just look around how many (lets be nice...)"people" bought founder packs
/applaud!!!
Thank you for saying what myself and many others are thinking. This whole P2W BS is ridiculous.
honestly, even if you can buy starter lvl 60 gear in the store this wouldnt be pay to win, age of conan let you buy rank 4 pvp gear at max lvl (80) from the store and since there were 10 ranks of gear it wasnt a big deal at all, hell no one even complained since you outranked that area so fast it didnt matter. this game is way less P2W than age of conan... but i digress, this game has a lot of things worth buying in the store which other games dont meaning it's a huge money sink which is a good thing, it means the game will be healthy etc...
--Nom Anor
No that is not what P2W means.
sure it is. in pve this means you can buy the best raid buffs/consumables from the store as well as tier 1 raid gear since that is what you need to raid. in pvp it means you can buy the best weapons/armor as well as pvp usable consumables which are simply OP if available. otherwise what are you winning? it's pay to win, not pay to max lvl... only by having the best stuff ever and beating your opponents are you winning anything...
--Nom Anor
The P2W originated from mostly Asian games where you could buy best gear which gave people considerable advantage in PVE as well as PVP.
Merely buying xp boosts or cosmetic items to look good isn't P2W. What advantage are you getting from cash shop in NW right now which makes it P2W?
It's a matter of preserving the appeal of getting those things the traditional way. If it were possible to just swing your mastercard and get the best items in the game that way, it'll be very hard for anybody else to justify working hard to do it. It's not as if a strong MMORPG character has some real life purpose or value, it's just a game that people play. If the effort of getting that gear is perceived to be pointless because the next guy might simply have bought it, it kills the reason most people have for playing MMORPGs in the first place. It's a genre where much of the incentive is centered around a look-what-I've-accomplished feeling, the pride and bragging rights of having got the best gear in the game and so on.
Microtransaction games also tend to design gameplay around their cash shop. Some don't, such as Path of Exile, while others make it so the game is barely enjoyable if you try to play it for free because everything is made to take a prohibitively long time to get the natural way. It remains to be seen whether or not this is true in Neverwinter, but it usually is to some extent in cash grab MMORPGs. We're in a time when the games are developed 90% for the profit and 10% for the love of making games, and it shows. It's the reason game after game dies out within a few months of being released. People have good reason to be wary of Neverwinter and its suspiciously heavy emphasis on the cash shop.
1. pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
So in summation no it is not Pay to win because exactly the same thing that players that play without paying get
And people will still call it P2W anyways no matter how much what you wrote is true. Every single forum that i have visited is calling NW a P2W game.
That's because people are idiots
Stating above did you not pay to get in and receive all those perks, mount, weapon, etc.. ?? Doesn't that give YOU an advantage over those that didn't?
I too paid for early access so please don't think this is sour grapes. The perks for using RL cash are tempting to speed up the process of certain in game thing, nightmare boxes, etc.. And that is the point. They WANT you to be tempted as they need your money, NOW. Those willing to pay will get it now. The rest will get the same thing just a bit later. The only advantage I see is you get you candy first. Which to me is a waste. What's the sense of having your candy if you can't share the experience with others? Isn't that the point of an MMO in the first place?
nothing more than convenience and has no actual benefits other than how long YOU will enjoy the game
yeah do you have Better gear than anyone else can get because you paid? can you do more damage/heal more than anyone else that didn't pay? The best gear in the game is available to everyone paying or non this game BY ACTUAL definition is not pay to win
B2P is when you need to purchase product first with no other fees.
F2P is when you download, install, and play with no fees required.
if you spend money to save time your not giving your toon any other advantage.
you sir do not know the definitions I'm sorry to say.
btw I have spent money to get keys and character slots by which supports the game to make more content. this is what your money goes towards.
conveniences?! half the **** in STO if you want you HAVE to buy from there over priced zen store. There zen prices are jacked everyone knows it, don't try and say different.
Their track record for drowning games in cash shop is number one.
Still trying to understand why they'd make epic dungeon class drops BOE...
Go check the AH for level 60 epic dungeons armour and weapons then come back to this thread.
The game is p2w.
No it isn't. You get AD in game without paying a dime. AD is used as AH currency. It's pay for convenience/expedience. You don't seem to understand what pay to win is.
well that's great that you can buy it, but it STILL gives them no advantage over the people that got their gear themselves...
And how far do you think 24k a day gets you? level 60 gear from vendor is 2m ad. Do the math. Just because I can walk to work doesn't mean the price of gas isn't too high. The "logic" some people use to justify wanting to P2W. Also anyone who thinks the actions of others have zero effect on you in an MMO are amazingly short sighted or just naive.
You are still failing to realize... this is not P2W, regardless of how you feel about the time you may need to invest.
exactly my thought when i read this **** ... poor little ******* doesnt know that the way is the goal.
on a sidenote .... the kids call that here grind today ? lol.... you never played a grinding game ... i wish this game had some grind adding to his longlivity.
To further your point here, people should have tried out Everquest when it first began (if anyone even remembers it). That was a horrible grind, yet still fun.
This. Grinding mobs for a week to gain 1 level. That was rough.
you can make your gear +1 / +2 / +3 / +4 - +12
and there are runes on the item shop that allows you to get the piece of gear to +12 with no fail
you can increase the tier of your gear with combined runes, and there are runes already to buy directly from the item shop.
you can buy daily reset with credit card so you can level every alt to max in 4 or 5 hours
your gear breaks when you die, and if it is a low durability gear you have to buy with credit card hammers to make it high durability untill you die again
Lots will now what company im talking about here.
cof* runewaker cof*
Pathetic.
It's not P2W in the traditional sense of buying something that isnt available in the game.
But it will be classified as P2W because as the scummy disgusting companies that adopt these business models change around, it doesnt escape notice of the customer. They are still using cheap tactics to force you into the cash shop, such as not being able to throw away lockboxes, but instead forced to sell them on the AH which makes you spend AD to throw something away. Rez scrolls only in the case shop and clerics not having the iconic ability of Raise Dead/Ressurection.
This is much the same way that Open World PVP....used to mean...PVP anywhere in the whole game world. But now, game devs will say they have open world PVP and they mean one zone that has open PVP. SWTOR did this very exact thing, and then went so far as to purposefully segregate the two factions to the point you had to go out of your way to find the opposing faction to PVP with them in the zone, except for a small area.
So, we can throw around jargon and lingo all day. What matters is that people will brand this game as P2W because unlike actual F2P games, they arent F2P, they are free for them to hassle the every living f*ck out of you to get you to waste money with them.
F2P game = Path of Exile. Take a lesson Cryptic.