If you feel that P2W means that you must pay in order to advance in the game and play all the content, then NO. There are none of those mechanics that require a cash shop item to level up. Nor are there any quests, dungeons or instances that you buy with cash.
If you feel that P2W means that you have to buy the best gear with cash, then NO. There are no uber armor or weapons for sale in the cash shop.
If you feel that P2W means that someone can pay and obtain something that grants in-game power advantages that they could not obtain from normal gameplay, then NO. The only possible exceptions I see are heal stones and rez scrolls. These are being looked at by the devs, but I don't count them as unbalancing advantages. Heal stones are better than healing pots because they heal you to full, but NW does not expect you to have full health bars all the time. The game isn't balanced for that. Just look at how Cleric heals work and you will see that they are not designed to keep you at full hit points, but rather to provide maintenance healing and lessen down time between encounters. I don't think one-shotting players is going to be much of an issue here and regular potions should be enough to keep you on your feet with smart play. Heal stones will help less skilled players keep up but won't make much difference for players who carefully avoid and mitigate damage. And rez scrolls simply don't add power to your character. They just save you from running back from spawn points and from repeating content because you died. They are purely a convenience item and don't make it easier for your character to survive in the first place.)
If you feel that P2W means that someone can pay and obtain something that grants in-game power advantages even if they could also obtain it from normal gameplay, then YES.
If you feel that P2W means that it is at all possible for a player to use cash to get something somehow and use it somewhere at some time, then YES. By that ridiculous definition Neverwinter is P2W.
If you feel that the ability to use cash to obtain in-game currency with which to buy powerful items is P2W, then YES. You can trade ZEN, purchased with cash, to another player on the Exchange in return for AD. You can then use AD to purchase gear from the auction house. I would point out, however, that you can only do this to obtain power from other players. Some player or players had to put in the work playing the game to generate the AD and also the loot sold on the auction house. You could obtain these items through direct trade or earn them yourself, so it never puts your character at an advantage over what some other player's character could have just gone out and earned in game. The proof of this is the fact that it was available for trade or sale on the auction house in the first place. So, I don't feel that is Pay to Win. I feel that it is Pay to be Equal.
And what is meant by "Winning" in this context? One can win a PvP match, but how does one win a Role Playing Game? The objective of a Role Playing Game is to have fun playing a role. If you enjoy yourself and use your character's abilities and/or give them a name, personality or backstory then congratulations. You win.
This is a very good post!!!
Hear!!! Hear!!!
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ordainedoneMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
This is Perfect World Entertainment, have you ever played any of their other MMO's? If so, you wouldn't be asking this question. They are everything that Pay 2 Win stands for.
EDIT: All it takes is checking out a few of PWI's other MMOs to see where NWO is heading. PWI tends to start off slow, then when you get hooked is when they change stuff up. You'll see. Thankfully it's just a filler right now. If they offered a Sub option then I would love to spend my time her, but they don't because they know they can make far more money off p2w then subs.
The company GGG is a Free 2 Play company that sets the standards for what a F2P game should be. Path of Exile.
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
edited April 2013
Every single free 2 play game from an actual company is pay to get better stuff. If you don't want that stick to subscription games.
Though I haven't played any PWI titles before this, their reputation is legendary. It's a fact this will never approach titles like Guild Wars 2 or Path of Exile in terms of a balanced and non-P2W cash shop.
I like this game a lot though, and I'm going to enjoy it. That doesn't stop me from seeing it for what it is. P2W. Some of you seem to believe that there is no P2W unless you're talking about a PvP context, or that there is no P2W if you can (theoretically) earn what paying players have through grinding, dailies, or whatever.
Fact is that this game is P2W, the only question is how bad. You should look at the minimum amount of gear that will let you realistically experience and progress through all the endgame and top level content. The question is where they set that entry bar for the top level content. Because that's what most of us want to be able to experience without being fleeced or forced into a unrealistic grind.
Until we know how bad it is in endgame, I'm just going to enjoy the game.
The company GGG is a Free 2 Play company that sets the standards for what a F2P game should be. Path of Exile.
Actually most people herald PWE as a CHAMPION of Free to Play especially with the system they have implemented in Blacklight. THEY set the F2P standards.
This is Perfect World Entertainment, have you ever played any of their other MMO's? If so, you wouldn't be asking this question. They are everything that Pay 2 Win stands for.
EDIT: All it takes is checking out a few of PWI's other MMOs to see where NWO is heading. PWI tends to start off slow, then when you get hooked is when they change stuff up. You'll see. Thankfully it's just a filler right now. If they offered a Sub option then I would love to spend my time her, but they don't because they know they can make far more money off p2w then subs.
The company GGG is a Free 2 Play company that sets the standards for what a F2P game should be. Path of Exile.
Cryptic made the game. Perfect World just publishes them. It's like when you get a book and it is done by the author in every way, shape, and form, but still needs a publisher to back the book and get it into peoples hands.
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werealchemistMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
but the one thing that irks me is that you can't purchase scroll of identify with in-game currency (unless i'm mistaken?) and all of the green drops and above need to be identified.
you can buy them for AD from a vendor they are all 15-45 AD depending on the level of the scroll you want to buy.
Seeing as this is a P2W thread, are the founder's pack worth the money. I was debating the Guardian Pack and after reading this thread I am now debating the game.
I am coming over from Aeria Games who are the champions of "P2W" and the "let's suck the last drop of money from a homeless mans wallet" type of game publishing.... I do not want to get into another game like that.
So, again, I do not mind dropping a dime here and there, but hundreds over and over cannot be done. So what say you all? Worth the time to play and the $60 or not?
P.S. Not a nub to PW, I played FW for awhile.
I haven't played it, but it seems like most of the complaints are coming from people who don't want to play the game for a long time to earn points. Bear in mind the game is technically not out yet.
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coldfusion1122Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited April 2013
It's mostly pay2savetime
grind for weeks or pay and get everything instantly (which is stupid) The daily cap on how many AD you can refine everyday scream, "Hey, buy zen!" though
Seeing as this is a P2W thread, are the founder's pack worth the money. I was debating the Guardian Pack and after reading this thread I am now debating the game.
I am coming over from Aeria Games who are the champions of "P2W" and the "let's suck the last drop of money from a homeless mans wallet" type of game publishing.... I do not want to get into another game like that.
So, again, I do not mind dropping a dime here and there, but hundreds over and over cannot be done. So what say you all? Worth the time to play and the $60 or not?
P.S. Not a nub to PW, I played FW for awhile.
I feel like the mount is the best thing about the pack. I feel like I would have gotten to my current level without the other parts. You get the extra ADs which will come in handy for sure, but I don't feel like you would have a bad time on Tuesday without paying. But definitely pay the 60 for Guardian if you think you're going to enjoy the game.
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ordainedoneMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
The only thing GGG has in the cash shop is, Vanity items and extra stash tabs which they already start you off with more then most people need. Not even Exp potions, or Respec tokens. GGG has the only game I have ever played that was totally run by donations, because lets be honest, there is nothing in the cash shop worth spending money on. Besides Stash tabs. But because of the way the run the game I have willingly spent 90$ of a pet (that does nothing for you), glowy after effects that you can put on your weapon (That do nothing for you) and a few extra stash tabs. (Which I honestly didn't need as what they give you is more then enough.)
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ordainedoneMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well the game LOOKS awesome, but seeing the discontent one the forums here seems to scare me abit.... I just popped for a founders pack in another new game that I had high hopes for and darned if that didn't backfire on me.... that game went straight up P2W in under a month of launch.... I work for a living, I cannot throw away money like that.... HOWEVER, I do not mind SPENDING some money on something I will enjoy.... Hmmmmm..... probably should not have read the forums :P
I didn't buy Hero, or Guardian because I know exactly where PWI will take this game. Just give it a couple montsh before spnding a dime. You'll find out real quick.
Well the game LOOKS awesome, but seeing the discontent one the forums here seems to scare me abit.... I just popped for a founders pack in another new game that I had high hopes for and darned if that didn't backfire on me.... that game went straight up P2W in under a month of launch.... I work for a living, I cannot throw away money like that.... HOWEVER, I do not mind SPENDING some money on something I will enjoy.... Hmmmmm..... probably should not have read the forums :P
Bear in mind that on the WoW forums the next expansion is always the end of WoW... Basically what I'm saying, the forums for a game always have the most negative feedback.
The only thing GGG has in the cash shop is, Vanity items and extra stash tabs which they already start you off with more then most people need. Not even Exp potions, or Respec tokens. GGG has the only game I have ever played that was totally run by donations, because lets be honest, there is nothing in the cash shop worth spending money on. Besides Stash tabs. But because of the way the run the game I have willingly spent 90$ of a pet (that does nothing for you), glowy after effects that you can put on your weapon (That do nothing for you) and a few extra stash tabs. (Which I honestly didn't need as what they give you is more then enough.)
This. GGG makes you want to give them money because they released a quality game and don't force their shop on to you. They've earned every penny they've been given. I wish more companies would copy their model. I'd still be playing PoE if it wasn't so hardcore of a game. The end game is simply brutal.
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ordainedoneMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Agreed, but they also give you a feel for the mood of the game too... I guess I will flip a coin
I may have a pretty negative attitude but it's for good reason. I was really saddened when I found out PWI was the one controlling the cookie jar as I know how they run their cash shop. I will play on the 30th and at any point in time I feel I have to spend money to accomplish something, or items you can buy in the cash shop are better then what you can find in game I will quit and make sure anyone I know stays away from the game. Most of my friends won't touch the game already because of PWI. We have experience with the company, and sadly it's not good.
For instance, in Jade Dynasty there is a quest which you have to do to progress. The only way you can do it is thorugh buying an item through the cash shop. This is how most of their games run. Right now you are forced to pick up lockbox's and can't drop them which clutter your already small invo/bank.
I may have a pretty negative attitude but it's for good reason. I was really saddened when I found out PWI was the one controlling the cookie jar as I know how they run their cash shop. I will play on the 30th and at any point in time I feel I have to spend money to accomplish something, or items you can buy in the cash shop are better then what you can find in game I will quit and make sure anyone I know stays away from the game. Most of my friends won't touch the game already because of PWI. We have experience with the company, and sadly it's not good.
For instance, in Jade Dynasty there is a quest which you have to do to progress. The only way you can do it is thorugh buying an item through the cash shop. This is how most of their games run. Right now you are forced to pick up lockbox's and can't drop them which clutter your already small invo/bank.
WHO CARES about not being able to drop/discard them. I mean honestly. People are ignoring the WAY bigger problem with these lock boxes. The lock boxes are the biggest form of p2w in any game I've ever seen. In fact, the only thing that comes as blatantly close is getting AD with buying the founders packs to buy gear on the AH with. So you get epic mounts/adornments/gear from these lock boxes buy giving them straight up $. It doesn't matter if one has the option of using it or not. It's there, and your character is at a disadvantage if you DON'T use them.
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ordainedoneMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes, BUT, theres another whole thread about it. It cost AD to use the AH, and the AH is already going to be flooded with them a few weeks after release. I imagine if they don't sell where do they end back up at and at the cost of AD.
EDIT: And as the guy said above me, Idm lockbox's as long as what is in them is vanity stuff. Wait til we start seeing gear that come out of em that is far better then anything you can find in game. (It'll happen)
Yes, BUT, theres another whole thread about it. It cost AD to use the AH, and the AH is already going to be flooded with them a few weeks after release. I imagine if they don't sell where do they end back up at and at the cost of AD.
EDIT: And as the guy said above me, Idm lockbox's as long as what is in them is vanity stuff. Wait til we start seeing gear that come out of em that is far better then anything you can find in game. (It'll happen)
But don't you get AD's from doing stuff in the game and can't you just keep putting up on the AH until it sells?
Also, isn't Perfect World just the publisher? We would have to look at Cryptic's track record to get an idea for how it will work.
Regardless, all the complaining won't do anything. It's a free to play game. Generally speaking they try to suck out poor sap's money through any means.
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terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Well the game LOOKS awesome, but seeing the discontent one the forums here seems to scare me abit.... I just popped for a founders pack in another new game that I had high hopes for and darned if that didn't backfire on me.... that game went straight up P2W in under a month of launch.... I work for a living, I cannot throw away money like that.... HOWEVER, I do not mind SPENDING some money on something I will enjoy.... Hmmmmm..... probably should not have read the forums :P
Keep in mind that if the forums of any game where accurate no game would last more than a week after launch. At most a week after launch. Every game sucks because of posters favorite thing X isn't there or more likely because game has a cash store and they want to just play for free and never ever give money to the people making the game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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ordainedoneMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
But don't you get AD's from doing stuff in the game and can't you just keep putting up on the AH until it sells?
Also, isn't Perfect World just the publisher? We would have to look at Cryptic's track record to get an idea for how it will work.
Regardless, all the complaining won't do anything. It's a free to play game. Generally speaking they try to suck out poor sap's money through any means.
Yes you can do dailies to earn AD, however if the market is flooded with lockbox's and you have to pay AD to even put the item up for sale, and the return is less then what it cost to put it up there. Well that presents a problem. Personally the AH should not use AD. I never knew AD exsisted in the forgotten realms series. Going to have to check that out. "Twas a great journey with lots of treasure, the treasure was something we've never seen before! Astral Diamonds!" I just don't see that fitting.
Perfect world is indeed the publisher, however I've also heard from many they are the ones who control what goes in and out of the cash shop. You're right about complaining though, the only way this game will remain f2p is if enough people boycott the cash shop until all p2w items are removed. Which will never happen. Dual Wielding credits card users are strong in the force! Personally I'm okay with the f2p model as long as it has a sub option aside from it w/bonuses.
EDIT: To the poster above I am quite the opposite. I'd love if the game had a Sub model. In truth I tend to only play Sub modeled games because F2Ps often cost more money then Subbed games do. This is why the F2P model is popular. They can make 10x the amount of cash on p2w items vs Sub,
Perfect world is indeed the publisher, however I've also heard from many they are the ones who control what goes in and out of the cash shop. You're right about complaining though, the only way this game will remain f2p is if enough people boycott the cash shop until all p2w items are removed. Which will never happen. Dual Wielding credits card users are strong in the force! Personally I'm okay with the f2p model as long as it has a sub option aside from it w/bonuses.
Didn't they also publish Blacklight? I'm not familiar with it, but I've heard that it's not necessary to spend any money on the game to enjoy it.
I hope more people are finally starting to realize how completely disingenuous the word "free" usually is in the "free to play" mentality. For so many years "free" has been the buzz word in marketing - nothing is ever free.
Well, I will say this, if you are going to advertise a game as "FTP" then it needs to be that way. I do not mind a cash shop and I do not mind dropping $20 here and there.... but when "Johnny Moneybags" decides to drop $4000 on a game just so he can 1 hit me and DOES.... that is when the game stops being fun and I move on with my "$20 here and there".
Have you played endgame PvP yet?
Do you know the best PvP gear currently in the game is bought with glory and is BOP????
Do you know that the only way to aquire Glory is by participation in PvP???
So Johnny moneybags who spent $4000 to acquire PVE BASED GEAR will be at a disadvantage if you are BIS with PvP gear. . .
Do a little research before you go spouting out misinformation like that. . .
And no game is truly free, you either pay with time or cash, most of the time its a mix of both. . .
Comments
This is the biggest difference between a Pay2Win and a GOOD F2P game.
This is a very good post!!!
Hear!!! Hear!!!
EDIT: All it takes is checking out a few of PWI's other MMOs to see where NWO is heading. PWI tends to start off slow, then when you get hooked is when they change stuff up. You'll see. Thankfully it's just a filler right now. If they offered a Sub option then I would love to spend my time her, but they don't because they know they can make far more money off p2w then subs.
The company GGG is a Free 2 Play company that sets the standards for what a F2P game should be. Path of Exile.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I like this game a lot though, and I'm going to enjoy it. That doesn't stop me from seeing it for what it is. P2W. Some of you seem to believe that there is no P2W unless you're talking about a PvP context, or that there is no P2W if you can (theoretically) earn what paying players have through grinding, dailies, or whatever.
Fact is that this game is P2W, the only question is how bad. You should look at the minimum amount of gear that will let you realistically experience and progress through all the endgame and top level content. The question is where they set that entry bar for the top level content. Because that's what most of us want to be able to experience without being fleeced or forced into a unrealistic grind.
Until we know how bad it is in endgame, I'm just going to enjoy the game.
Actually most people herald PWE as a CHAMPION of Free to Play especially with the system they have implemented in Blacklight. THEY set the F2P standards.
you can buy them for AD from a vendor they are all 15-45 AD depending on the level of the scroll you want to buy.
location number 24 on the map
I haven't played it, but it seems like most of the complaints are coming from people who don't want to play the game for a long time to earn points. Bear in mind the game is technically not out yet.
grind for weeks or pay and get everything instantly (which is stupid) The daily cap on how many AD you can refine everyday scream, "Hey, buy zen!" though
I feel like the mount is the best thing about the pack. I feel like I would have gotten to my current level without the other parts. You get the extra ADs which will come in handy for sure, but I don't feel like you would have a bad time on Tuesday without paying. But definitely pay the 60 for Guardian if you think you're going to enjoy the game.
I didn't buy Hero, or Guardian because I know exactly where PWI will take this game. Just give it a couple montsh before spnding a dime. You'll find out real quick.
Bear in mind that on the WoW forums the next expansion is always the end of WoW... Basically what I'm saying, the forums for a game always have the most negative feedback.
This. GGG makes you want to give them money because they released a quality game and don't force their shop on to you. They've earned every penny they've been given. I wish more companies would copy their model. I'd still be playing PoE if it wasn't so hardcore of a game. The end game is simply brutal.
I may have a pretty negative attitude but it's for good reason. I was really saddened when I found out PWI was the one controlling the cookie jar as I know how they run their cash shop. I will play on the 30th and at any point in time I feel I have to spend money to accomplish something, or items you can buy in the cash shop are better then what you can find in game I will quit and make sure anyone I know stays away from the game. Most of my friends won't touch the game already because of PWI. We have experience with the company, and sadly it's not good.
For instance, in Jade Dynasty there is a quest which you have to do to progress. The only way you can do it is thorugh buying an item through the cash shop. This is how most of their games run. Right now you are forced to pick up lockbox's and can't drop them which clutter your already small invo/bank.
Can't you sell those on the AH though?
Yes, BUT, theres another whole thread about it. It cost AD to use the AH, and the AH is already going to be flooded with them a few weeks after release. I imagine if they don't sell where do they end back up at and at the cost of AD.
EDIT: And as the guy said above me, Idm lockbox's as long as what is in them is vanity stuff. Wait til we start seeing gear that come out of em that is far better then anything you can find in game. (It'll happen)
But don't you get AD's from doing stuff in the game and can't you just keep putting up on the AH until it sells?
Also, isn't Perfect World just the publisher? We would have to look at Cryptic's track record to get an idea for how it will work.
Regardless, all the complaining won't do anything. It's a free to play game. Generally speaking they try to suck out poor sap's money through any means.
Keep in mind that if the forums of any game where accurate no game would last more than a week after launch. At most a week after launch. Every game sucks because of posters favorite thing X isn't there or more likely because game has a cash store and they want to just play for free and never ever give money to the people making the game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yes you can do dailies to earn AD, however if the market is flooded with lockbox's and you have to pay AD to even put the item up for sale, and the return is less then what it cost to put it up there. Well that presents a problem. Personally the AH should not use AD. I never knew AD exsisted in the forgotten realms series. Going to have to check that out. "Twas a great journey with lots of treasure, the treasure was something we've never seen before! Astral Diamonds!" I just don't see that fitting.
Perfect world is indeed the publisher, however I've also heard from many they are the ones who control what goes in and out of the cash shop. You're right about complaining though, the only way this game will remain f2p is if enough people boycott the cash shop until all p2w items are removed. Which will never happen. Dual Wielding credits card users are strong in the force! Personally I'm okay with the f2p model as long as it has a sub option aside from it w/bonuses.
EDIT: To the poster above I am quite the opposite. I'd love if the game had a Sub model. In truth I tend to only play Sub modeled games because F2Ps often cost more money then Subbed games do. This is why the F2P model is popular. They can make 10x the amount of cash on p2w items vs Sub,
Didn't they also publish Blacklight? I'm not familiar with it, but I've heard that it's not necessary to spend any money on the game to enjoy it.
Have you played endgame PvP yet?
Do you know the best PvP gear currently in the game is bought with glory and is BOP????
Do you know that the only way to aquire Glory is by participation in PvP???
So Johnny moneybags who spent $4000 to acquire PVE BASED GEAR will be at a disadvantage if you are BIS with PvP gear. . .
Do a little research before you go spouting out misinformation like that. . .
And no game is truly free, you either pay with time or cash, most of the time its a mix of both. . .