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How the new 15 min reward system trashed my non-linear quest
gillrmn
Member Posts: 7,800 Arc User
So back when I made a nonlinear quest in BW4, it was praised a lot and people liked it. You needn't complete all the side-quest, just do main quest and its done. The main quest was no joke, but was comparitively short, while side quests were 5 times as long as that.
Now, as they trashed the BW4 reviews(when players had a lot of time with them and played the quests at their pace) and considered the alpha reviews (who had like 4 hours to play and used to run quests without even understanding what the quest was - in short, shallow, stupid and superficial reviews), it does not even have 12 reviews.
This is because your stupid "this quest does not qualify for daily rewards". NOT EVEN ONE PLAY. Why do you hate nonlinear quests so much? It keeps on getting harder and harder for nonlinear quests.
Should I stop making puzzles and side-quests? Do you want me to make themepark only quests.
I strongly hate the one who proposed this anti-sandbox quest idea. AND I HATE ALL THE ANTI-SANDBOX DEVS IN CRYPTIC, AND THE PLAYERS TOO!!!!!!!
Now, as they trashed the BW4 reviews(when players had a lot of time with them and played the quests at their pace) and considered the alpha reviews (who had like 4 hours to play and used to run quests without even understanding what the quest was - in short, shallow, stupid and superficial reviews), it does not even have 12 reviews.
This is because your stupid "this quest does not qualify for daily rewards". NOT EVEN ONE PLAY. Why do you hate nonlinear quests so much? It keeps on getting harder and harder for nonlinear quests.
Should I stop making puzzles and side-quests? Do you want me to make themepark only quests.
I strongly hate the one who proposed this anti-sandbox quest idea. AND I HATE ALL THE ANTI-SANDBOX DEVS IN CRYPTIC, AND THE PLAYERS TOO!!!!!!!
Post edited by gillrmn on
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Just dont add another stupid rule that quests longer than 4 months would be deleted when they finally decide to come. Ok??
f****** hostile themeparkers...
This doesn't seem so bad to me!
The two quests are part of the same campaign. However, due to one green line one of the quest has not got a single play ever since launch. It clearly shows their anti-sandbox quest and pro-themepark policy which has selectively targeted the sandbox quests once again after the budget limits being designed in a deliberate way to restrict the construction of open maps.
The 12 plays from alpha a re inconsequential as rules at that time (and rewards) were different. During BW4, I did have much more than 112 reviews and mostly positive. It showed people liked to explore and they liked the surprise.
By advertising that "You don't get rewards when you don't play greens" they have completely destroyed any motivation an author would have towards making a sandbox map where a player chooses what quests to do instead of what is spoon-fed to them.
There are a thousand and one faults with their ratings, but it is not bothersome as long as it is not hostile. If it is not pro- , its fine. But the latitude has been tilting lately and discrimination is strong towards certain section of authors who do not toe the line and removal of rewards(and thus motivation for players to play it) is the most extreme step.
TL;DR:-
The bottomline is, they can do the hell they want with the ratings, its never a botheration, but messing with rewards to orient people towards one kind of quest is morally wrong.
I suggest you make it say 'find house in blacklake district'.
Kudos on all the special effects, pretty neat!
The serious issues
1) How the budget limits are technically incorrect and morally evil
Budget limits are used to make maps easy to render. Fine. But is it all they do? No.
What they do? They are actively discouraging the players to make larger custom maps irrespective of how heavy they are on rendering side.
Explaination.
There are many kind of objects. Let us choose a scale of thousand then blade of grass may lie somewhere 20 while a detailed statute with etchings may lie somewhere 100. If you assign budget limit to each object, you will have a maxwell distribution curve which is very smooth with majority of values lying somewhere in the middle.
What was done?
Instead of concentrating on the budget limit system, the middle of the curve was quantumized as starting value. i.e. they clubbed the objects together by reducing the units of the limits of the objects. i.e. instead of Thousand, you just choose 5 to differentiate between objects and do not use decimals. This ends up rounding up all the numbers.
That way,
1/1000 to 200/1000 becomes 1/5
200/1000 to 400/1000 becomes 2/5
...
800/1000 to 1000/1000 becomes 5/5
What it does?
As majority of objects lieing 1/5 region, most of the differentiation between the object s lost. So while earlier you could have used 5000 objects in the same limit, you can only use 1500 objects, even when the limit is same.
Why does this happens?
This is because the upper limit is fixed based on budget limits. So most of the objects which actually are 0.01, 0.03 etc. are counted as 1.
Who does it affects?
It affects the empty large map by artificially increasing the budget limits for them. So while actually the larger maps are way behind the budget limits, it is artificially increased for them.
Basically a step to curb the open world maps.
Is it deliberate?
We were told that budget limit is something they have implemented after a lot of testing. Hence it is not some kind of overlooking on their part. It is deliberate.
Why would they do that?
In order to "encourage" authors(I would use the term dictate) to not make open world maps.
2) Dictating players to play a certain kind of maps
Like the culprit above, the action of "15 min maps are qualifying for rewards" looks innocent. However it is not.
Why?
The quests which are less than 15 mins (say 10 mins) count 0 in terms of daily rewards. You cannot do the 3 5 mins quests to claim daily reward for them.
How is it wrong?
The devs are clearly trying to dictate players WHAT TO PLAY, not HOW TO PLAY. Basically they are handpicking the content for you.
How it should have been?
All other actions (like unfair star rating) dictate to players "how to play". i.e. players should spend 1 hour in foundry quests to be flagged for rewards, etc.
Here the time spent in doing quests less than 15 mins is the time wasted due to this unfair reward policy.
Is it deliberate?
Yes it sure is. Anybody applying his understanding to this system should easily be able to see how it has recently been changed for this particular game to cater to thempark style conventional quests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lastly, why do they do it? Does it boosts their popularity? In short, is it wise?
I believe their discrimination comes from the data from MMO which is not an accurate portrayal of success. It is good to have conventional quests in game, but actively weeding out diversity by a discrimination policy in determining costs on author side and rewards on player side is a very stupid attitude.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rest minor issues with rating system are minor, but all other features also make sure that only certain quests which qualify their themepark agenda come up.
However rating is a minor issue as it is only a suggestion which can be overcome by increasing the overall quality your quests when compared to other run of the mill quests.
===========================================
@izatar, you are deflecting the real issue. The second quests had got a lot of plays already - it is about first quest which did not qualify for rewards. However I had to apply a change to it in order to make it artificially longer and destroy my story in the process because of hostile attitude of the game system. And your perception is not required when I already have data from BW4 to compare with the same crowd.
Even when now both my quests qualify for rewards does not condone the discriminatory policy of devs in any way.
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And after 3 days i have almost 4000 plays.
When you have 1 hour of 1,5x EXP, AND 4 quest on lv 55+ to finish to get Astral diamonds, people will play quest close to 15 min to get most of it (EXP and astral diamonds)
This system is just not too good.
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest
Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ecy4o6JqLc
And at the moment most players only play quest that is green??? How should all the other quests be played and when? They don't give AD even if they are 15+ min.
I find this system hostile against authors.
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Shouldn't the reward of creating something be the act itself? And, if a couple of people who want more than the widest xp/item spigot they can find happen to play and enjoy something you create, isn't that just icing on the cake?
If, however, one is creating something for monetary purposes (gems), then having to pervert one's creative ideas to fit the consumer market is hardly something new.
I know I, when I'm logged in as a player, actively do search for something a little more above board than kill 7 of this and 3 of that "quests", but so many quests have such horrible descriptions written more as software release notes than something that might compel me to go "oh hey, that might be an interesting story, etc", that I can't say I've spent more than a few minutes doing so prior to going to the Foundry myself to make something a little deeper than what seems to be pumped out en masse currently.
Over in Star Trek Online, people used to publish Foundry missions which were just little maps with a few interactable objects. So you hop in, click or press F next to the objects, then get out. Bam. You have your nice little currency reward for less than a minute of gameplay.
What this meant was that the most-played and most-rated missions in the STO Foundry became all these tiny glowie-maps. Actual story missions were pushed down the list, or worse, downvoted via one-starring.
So a minimum-time restriction was introduced to the STO Foundry to prevent abuse like that. The idea being that players should only get rewards from missions that actually tell a story. The trouble is, they can't exactly screen every mission to make sure it's an actual story, not a farming or speedrun tool...so they used a time restriction instead.
The 15 minute window is a measure intended to help storytellers, not hurt them. That's the idea, anyway. By doing this, it makes sure that actual substantial mission content gets the most players, not these...teeny-tiny speed farms with barely any written text.
Trouble is, the time restriction means that content like the quests in this thread will be sort of screwed over. But it's not like Cryptic has some kind of nefarious evil hatred for open-ended mission maps, and wants to exterminate all sandbox creators. It's a side effect. It's collateral damage.
EDIT: To clarify, I feel your pain - I've almost scrapped my own plans for an open-ended sidequest-heavy story because of this.
Personally, I don't do dailies (tried this once).
It is quite hard to find any other quests than go into the dungeon and fight ridiculous hard opponents (boss-mobs every two meters). Those Death-Witches are very common at the moment with their ability to heal their group and respawn monsters, just to annoy the players (Guardian Fighter has interruption as long as they come alone and not 2-3 of them).
So, just be happy that your quest is there and it will be played
p.s. how are the times measured anyway? I could play a quest in 1min, because most of it happens on the official map and not in the dungeon.
I personally don't think that the 15-min requirement is "hostile to authors"; as acylion explained above, the rationale is usually far more mundane: to prevent abuse.
The fun is in the act of creation, particularly for something that's a hobby and not work; if it turns out to be popular and well-liked, that's just icing on the cake.
Creatives who insist on creative freedom usually end up creating ... nothing.
Clearly, the current scheme is exploitable- just design a quest that can be completed in 1 minute if you know the right method, but longer by the ignorant masses, or by an army of alts. Thus, the current system seems designed to be cheated, as it bases your reward not on how long you played, but on how long other people played.
Having actual time played also solves a horrible issue: I make a quest that averages 15 minutes at the start, but then people start farming it since its exactly 15 minutes, and do it so fast that the time goes down. Once a quest goes below 15 minutes again, it is doomed; getting the average back up will never happen.
It does, actually. Or at least is supposed to, based on what the devs have told us since the beginning.
I can understand you're upset because cryptic set up the rewards for doing quests in such a way that it would hurt traffic to your quest, but don't you think you're overreacting just a little?
Your suggestion is probably not a good idea. The players who pick a random Foundry quest for their Daily, only to have it be a 1-minute quest and receiving almost nothing for their trouble, are not going to be happy about it.
I don't think it's right that we have the same detail budget on a large map as we do on a small map.
Larger maps need to have more objects populating them than small maps - in order to make them feel natural or not "empty".
As it is currently, we are limited to the same number of detail objects, but spread out over a larger area (in large maps) as opposed to in smaller maps - which has the end result of making larger maps look very artificial and empty.
Gil's quest (which was incredible by the way you should play it whether it's 15min or not) Meant you could literally go in and do what you wanted, sure there was a main point, but there was also all this other stuff to discover and enjoy. The problem with a hard limit is, if no one searches for other stuff or goes off the beaten path, then the quest won't qualify for rewards and no one will play it.
As it stands everyone is now using the Foundry as a reward wheel. They play only the quests that are are closest to the 15min mark without taking longer. Anything under they won't bother with unless they are friends, guildmates etc.
If this was made actual playtime inside the quest for rewards, then players could play any quest they wanted. as long as they spend 15min in the quest they get the rewards, and can't farm the quest in 2mins etc.
For my own quest for example you begin the quest in a starting area, then branch out on 3 entirely different stories within the same Adventure. But I'd have to build it so each of those paths are 15min long otherwise it won't qualify unless someone plays Path 1 only etc. I build my Adventures with the same thing Gil likes to add. Replay value, so you can play the quest again and actually find something new you didn't the last time.
When my quest is done you can play through it 3 times and have a different adventure each time. That is my goal but the current 15min limit not being based on actual time spent in the Foundry quest is a problem. Instead of having it based on average playtime, just make it you must spend at least 15min inside any Foundry quest in order to get rewards. It's not exploitable since everyone would have to spend a minimum of 15min in each quest.
Search @Longshire for 12 Foundry Quests, all are story driven adventures
Story -- Medium/Heavy, Combat -- Light/Medium, Lore -- Medium/Heavy
Do you have anything to back up this statement with? The 15-minute limit counts once a day at most, and I haven't seen any indication that what you're saying is true. People still played my second quest despite it not qualifying for a while.
Let's not use grand sweeping statements not founded in actual fact. That only does all of us a disservice and muddles the discussion. Apologies if you actually have a factual basis for your claim.
It would qualify if people would play it but in a sea of quests it gets lost. Needs some fine tuning, but for the most part everything is there. Including story line.
So, fellow Silverstars/Moonstars. Play "Progenitors Shadow: Book One, The Skullcracker Tribe". Take the time to read the dialog. It sets up alot of the story line for later quests.
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Gill... sorry to see your quests get hurt, but the system is set up the way that it is to prevent exploitation. Why do you think they are taking so long to even look at adding harvesting nodes or allowing us to add treasure chests? Someone out there is going to take th tools and they are going to exploit it in some way. They have to put in these limitations.
I have played the STO farming missions... yeah, I won't go there.
@kmhknight
My campaign: The Madness Plague.
My quest: Blacklake Gold
My guild: "The Older" Age 30+, Casual
The lesser of the evils here is to augment your individual campaigns with a mandatory 15 minute activity. Yes, it's a restraint, but as creative people we work BEST when overcoming challenges. I know you can too. So chin up, I and many others would love to see more of what you have in store-- and play with you, too!
As for the 15 minute marking, I noticed that the current average time of most quests were significantly impacted by the Founder's rewards (such as the Greycloak weapons and readily available Companions) allowing low-level players burn through content much faster than originally intended. I expect it will even out a bit more once the game is fully Open Beta, and the flood of non-Founder Enhanced players go through that content again.
I also don't think a lot of players will only play the Foundry content for the Daily Rewards. Unlike STO or even City of Heroes before it, the Neverwinter Foundry was a part of the game from day one, and UGC is inexorably tied to D&D in general. Yeah, there's that 'punch the monkey' aspect (man, that reference will go over most peoples' heads), but the way the game is organized, there's a lot of reason to think the Foundry content will see a lot of adoption in general.
At least I hope so -- I'm heading to the opposite problem; my content is going to run considerably more than 15 minutes run time. I doubt the Daily reward would be enough of a hook, since other content will give it to people inside of fifteen minutes.
"I had the ambition to not only go farther than man had gone before,
but to go as far as it was possible to go"
--Captain James Cook