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Poll: What buffs does the GWF Need?

zardoz007zardoz007 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2 Arc User
edited April 2013 in PvE Discussion
Simple vote multiple times for the buffs you think the GWF needs to be able to compare to other classes
Post edited by zardoz007 on
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Comments

  • warpetwarpet Member Posts: 1,969 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    he need to gert back how he was in bw3 ,they need return everything he had then since even then he was weak but now is worst class
  • kotlikotli Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 577
    edited April 2013
    He really really need his charge skill moved back down to lower levels and damage and defence both need buffing.
  • teethxteethx Member Posts: 219 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    If they dont want to give him more damage then he needs a reason for people to want to play them and right now there really isnt one. I have fun purely from the challenge but i am not sure I want that for my main since getting into a guild with him will be like pulling teeth.
  • iamzelpexiamzelpex Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 29 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    He needs to be buffed in damage cause he is kind of weak.. against other classes.
  • ganjaman1ganjaman1 Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    GWF doesn't need anything at this point glhf
  • unblessedhandunblessedhand Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 51
    edited April 2013
    I voted for more damage, AoE, and healing...though you could also substitute better healing for better damage resistance. I found the attacks weak and not even great AoE on the at-wills (left-click is almost no effective AoE in reality). If a GWF is going to be AoE, then it should have better AoE in its primary attack.
  • jestal1jestal1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 33
    edited April 2013
    I'm trying to write a whole post on the issue, but I don't have privileges to post for what ever reason. Without going into to much detail, he needs one realistic change that can happen before release on Tuesday, thus saving Cryptic about 80-100k disappointing GWF who will just get a poor impression of the game.

    The only feasible change at this moment is to simply raise the coefficient of determination gain by 25-30%. This will address all issue's that players are having in all area's with the class. It will give an effective 10ish% increase to survivability and 10ish% effective increase to damage, will allow for more freedom within PvP and survivability which it needs and will allow the class to managebly go through the first parts of the game in a fun manor. It will also not make it OP at 50-60 where it starts to get better.
  • cihuacoatlcihuacoatl Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The first two players that hit 60 are GWF.

    Are we asking for a nurf?
  • zardoz007zardoz007 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    The first 2 players who hit 60 on GWF did it through the leadership skill and by paying Astral diamonds, Ie not be anything that resembled combat and it can be done the same way on any character
  • aaxelvaaxelv Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    cihuacoatl wrote: »
    The first two players that hit 60 are GWF.

    Are we asking for a nurf?

    They leveled with professions by buying diamonds. Class was irrelevant.

    Derp more.
  • kerlaakerlaa Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    AOE and movement and then IMO the GWF might be better at his role of off striker and rounding up the adds. IMO if he is bumped up to much in damage then he would have to be nerfed in the AOE department for balance.

    He should not be the highest single target DPS'r but rather the higher Mult/target DPS'r
  • tacc4990tacc4990 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 161 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    kerlaa wrote: »
    AOE and movement and then IMO the GWF might be better at his role of off striker and rounding up the adds. IMO if he is bumped up to much in damage then he would have to be nerfed in the AOE department for balance.

    He should not be the highest single target DPS'r but rather the higher Mult/target DPS'r
    GWF should not be highest ANY target DPS because he's NOT A STRIKER. GWF is a Defender according to the official wiki (http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter) and the official DnD rules. I'm not saying GWF is balanced cause I believe the class does need some work. HOWEVER it does not need more damage and should not be compared to TR in terms of DPS. TR is the only Striker class in the game right now and as such should be considerably more damage than anyone else. GWF needs buffs to its survivability and it needs more threat to be able to fulfill its Defender role. Was it a good idea to release the game with 1 striker class available? Absolutely not but they did it anyway. Everything will be better when they release Archer Ranger and Scourge Warlock so we have more than 1 Striker available and everyone can stop pointing fingers at Rogue saying it's OP cause it does it's job.


    Quote from DnD 4e Players Handbook. I bolded the important parts where it says GWF is a Defender according to the official DnD rules.
    FIGHTER
    CLASS TRAITS
    Role: Defender. You are very tough and have the exceptional
    ability to contain enemies in melee.
    Power Source: Martial. You have become a master of
    combat through endless hours of practice, determination,
    and your own sheer physical toughness.
    Key Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom,
    Constitution
    Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail,
    scale; light shield, heavy shield
    Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee,
    simple ranged, military ranged
    Bonus to Defense: +2 Fortitude
    Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution score
    Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
    Healing Surges per Day: 9 + Constitution modifier
    Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, choose
    three trained skills at 1st level.
    Class Skills: Athletics (Str), Endurance (Con), Heal
    (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Streetwise (Cha)
    Build Options: Great weapon fighter, guardian fighter
    Class Features: Combat Challenge, Combat Superiority,
    Fighter Weapon Talent
  • ashensteelashensteel Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    tacc4990 wrote: »
    GWF should not be highest ANY target DPS because he's NOT A STRIKER. GWF is a Defender according to the official wiki (http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter) and the official DnD rules. I'm not saying GWF is balanced cause I believe the class does need some work. HOWEVER it does not need more damage and should not be compared to TR in terms of DPS. TR is the only Striker class in the game right now and as such should be considerably more damage than anyone else. GWF needs buffs to its survivability and it needs more threat to be able to fulfill its Defender role. Was it a good idea to release the game with 1 striker class available? Absolutely not but they did it anyway. Everything will be better when they release Archer Ranger and Scourge Warlock so we have more than 1 Striker available and everyone can stop pointing fingers at Rogue saying it's OP cause it does it's job.


    Quote from DnD 4e Players Handbook. I bolded the important parts where it says GWF is a Defender according to the official DnD rules.

    To bad anyone can edit wiki pages and they are super reliable...
  • divinehopedivinehope Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 48
    edited April 2013
    Once again you can spit out all these DnD rules but the fact of the matter is we are not up to par in any role, be it a DPS, Defender, AoEer, Striker. Its all completely irrelevant because the class really isn't working as intended or fulfilling any role atm. We are just kinda there filling up a slot.
  • kerlaakerlaa Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    tacc4990 wrote: »
    GWF should not be highest ANY target DPS because he's NOT A STRIKER. GWF is a Defender according to the official wiki (http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter) and the official DnD rules. I'm not saying GWF is balanced cause I believe the class does need some work. HOWEVER it does not need more damage and should not be compared to TR in terms of DPS. TR is the only Striker class in the game right now and as such should be considerably more damage than anyone else. GWF needs buffs to its survivability and it needs more threat to be able to fulfill its Defender role. Was it a good idea to release the game with 1 striker class available? Absolutely not but they did it anyway. Everything will be better when they release Archer Ranger and Scourge Warlock so we have more than 1 Striker available and everyone can stop pointing fingers at Rogue saying it's OP cause it does it's job.


    Quote from DnD 4e Players Handbook. I bolded the important parts where it says GWF is a Defender according to the official DnD rules.

    Agreed. They should not be a Striker class nor a pure Defender class imo but rather a combination of both. It can be LABELED as a Defender but should be a mix. IMO they should be mix sort of like mixing AOC Barbarian with the Conqueror or for those old school players a cross between an EQ Warrior and Berserker.

    Guess its the old school D&D player in me but never figured a fighter wielding a great two hander as very defensive but rather offensive. IE the Barbarian of old wielding a great sword or great hammer.
  • mazzeimazzei Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    As much as I hate to do this in here, anyone ever heard of the Bruiser role in League of Legends?

    The bruiser is the guy who has the survivability to survive the frontline while having ENOUGH!!!!! JUST ENOUGH, neither high nor low, that means moderate-to-high damage, just ENOUGH to be a threat to the enemy team and not be something you should ignore like a full tank.

    It's like the a guy there saying "Hey, your primary target, the ones dealing most damage are right behind me, the rogue and the wizard, but you'd better stay on me or I can deal just enough damage to make you regret that decision."

    This is what the class is supposed to do. Being in the frontline, BOTH dealing and taking punishment while AoE hitting everybody around. That doesn't sound OP to me.
  • zardoz007zardoz007 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    I agree that the GWF needs more Defender abilities, IE Damage mitigation and Threat. But looking at the pole now the top 3 things people want are Damage, by a huge margin, Damage resistance and AOE (which is essentially just more damage)

    More healing power would also help the tank-ness of the class, but right now it is sitting in the bottom two along with the poeple that are confused enough to not want this class to be buffed. Funny I was thinking more rogue players would be spamming that button to keep the GWF down and make themselves feel more important but I guess most people realize they have to play this game with GWF and they want them to be a respectable teammate.
  • tacc4990tacc4990 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 161 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    kerlaa wrote: »
    Agreed. They should not be a Striker class nor a pure Defender class imo but rather a combination of both. It can be LABELED as a Defender but should be a mix. IMO they should be mix sort of like mixing AOC Barbarian with the Conqueror or for those old school players a cross between an EQ Warrior and Berserker.

    Guess its the old school D&D player in me but never figured a fighter wielding a great two hander as very defensive but rather offensive. IE the Barbarian of old wielding a great sword or great hammer.
    This is the problem. They plan to release a Barbarian class eventually. If the GWF does a ton of damage and wields a 2h weapon then what the heck would they release a Barbarian with a 2h weapon that does a ton of damage for? That's why I say either they need to buff up GWF defensive role or just scrap the class idea all together and just redo a few abilities rename it Barbarian and call it a day.

    I linked the Wiki because the guy before me quoted the Wiki trying to prove his point that GWF are Strikers (which isn't said ANYWHERE on the official wiki) I realize that Wiki's aren't a rock solid source of information. That's why I linked a DIRECT QUOTE from the DnD Player's Handbook from DnD 4e which this game is based upon... I don't know how you can possibly argue directly against the ruleset this entire game is based on. It's hard to argue with people that don't agree on facts. It's like trying to talk some sense into Jehovah's Witnesses that just stick their fingers in their ears and go "Lalalalala can't hear you" when you bring up facts and proof against their argument.
  • neverasherneverasher Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Can you really trust that wiki yet tacc4990 in which one breath says it's primary role is a defender then in another says it's primary role is damage dealer(not striker, just damage dealer). You have to make sure you know who's editing that thing.
    2uhmn1l.jpg
  • delgatto42delgatto42 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 135 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    They were toted as mobile melee hybrid AOE Striker and defender. Not supposed to be the best damage, but supposed to be the best AOE DPS currently while not being paper thin. So be great at AOE Melee, you need the ablility to do AOE damage, and stay in the middle of groups.

    Recently I realized the issue with their AOR power is, if they hit 10 guys for 200 damage, thats 20 damage per guy. If the mobility wont be upped, maybe the damage division should be altered. I know in PnP you do for instance X[W] damage to each target hit, or X[W] for primary target, and Y to all secondairy
    When he gets to Heaven To Saint Peter he will say, "Hand me 4d6. Lets roll the dice and play!"
  • delgatto42delgatto42 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 135 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    mazzei wrote: »
    As much as I hate to do this in here, anyone ever heard of the Bruiser role in League of Legends?

    The bruiser is the guy who has the survivability to survive the frontline while having ENOUGH!!!!! JUST ENOUGH, neither high nor low, that means moderate-to-high damage, just ENOUGH to be a threat to the enemy team and not be something you should ignore like a full tank.

    It's like the a guy there saying "Hey, your primary target, the ones dealing most damage are right behind me, the rogue and the wizard, but you'd better stay on me or I can deal just enough damage to make you regret that decision."

    This is what the class is supposed to do. Being in the frontline, BOTH dealing and taking punishment while AoE hitting everybody around. That doesn't sound OP to me.

    Actually, that sounds like the Exact role of GWF. Lets See, Garen's Spin to win, Panth's skyfall, Rammus' earthquake. All three powers are GWF Action Point Power. All three are decent representations of the bruiser role. All three have a combo of survivability and damage to make them a threat
    When he gets to Heaven To Saint Peter he will say, "Hand me 4d6. Lets roll the dice and play!"
  • jestal1jestal1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 33
    edited April 2013
    I answered damage, attack speed and damage resistance.
  • unjustbladeunjustblade Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 91
    edited April 2013
    The problem to me seems to be that the damage modifiers on the GWF's abilities are... Well... Complete ****. Let's compare numbers. We'll start with the Guardian Fighter:

    Total Character Power: 100
    Weapon Damage: 42-51
    44-51 physical damage cleave (2 ranks) (No damage debuff for hitting multiple enemies)

    162-182 damage griffin's wrath
    202-233 lunging strike

    And now the Great Weapon Fighter:

    Character Power: 144 Total
    Weapon Damage: 83-101
    38-45 physical damage Sure Strike (2 ranks)
    41-49 physical damage wicked strike (2 ranks) (damage debuff for every target hit beyond the first)
    165-195 physical damage Reaping Strike (2 ranks) (Approximately 3.2-3.7 seconds between each fully charged Reaping Strike)

    So we can see that the Great Weapon Fighter's abilities use not even half of the equipped sword's full power, while a Guardian Fighter's abilities use 100% +. Not to mention, Cleave has no damage debuff for hitting multiple enemies. Does this seem like it's keeping with the GWF's theme of "Great AoE Damage Dealer" to anyone else? It doesn't to me.

    This isn't even considering the GWF's other flaws, like Sprint not allowing you to "Dodge" enemy attacks like the Wizard's teleport. The only thing sprint is decent at is getting you out of a red zone.
  • akwartz01akwartz01 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Give it a real role, right now it's too weak to be a real DPS or an off-tank and doesn't have the utility to justify its presence compared to other classes.

    Reduce their encounter cooldowns, a relentless fighter should not only have abilities with ~14-15s cooldowns. This could also help set them up as a steady DPS option against the Rogue's burst.

    Do something, anything, about Reaping Strike.

    If the class is supposed to be a DPS then Determination needs reworking, right now it rewards you the best for getting hit, which makes no sense for a DPS class. Especially in a game like Neverwinter where the best form of mitigation is completely evading attacks.

    The sprint needs to be a better defensive move, right now I'd rather have a short dash, especially since I can already move swiftly around the field with Mighty Leap, Avalanche of Steel and/or Spinning Strike.

    Animations for Mighty Leap and Takedown should be reworked as they are really underwheling and often buggy.

    The class should have been introduced as the Barbarian, since that's what it really is : superior life but inferior armor, a "rage" system, increased movement in battle and a huge two-hander ? If the game is successful enough to last long, adding the Barbarian class is going to be a conundrum because we pretty much already have it in game under another name. This would also have given the game only one Fighter subclass, which would have made it much less confusing to people who have no knowledge of D&D 4E.
  • unjustbladeunjustblade Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 91
    edited April 2013
    akwartz01 wrote: »
    Do something, anything, about Reaping Strike.

    I think adding a stacking damage resist buff while charging Reaping Strike would help. As in, for every successive hit you take while charging Reaping Strike, damage is decreased by 15% to a max of 90%. Also, the Destroyer buff needs to last longer than 3 seconds. At least 15 seconds and any successive 3+ mob hits should refresh the duration, unless you go over the amount initially hit. Then it would increase the stacks by the appropriate amount AND refresh the duration.
  • jestal1jestal1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 33
    edited April 2013
    The problem to me seems to be that the damage modifiers on the GWF's abilities are... Well... Complete ****. Let's compare numbers. We'll start with the Guardian Fighter:

    Total Character Power: 100
    Weapon Damage: 42-51
    44-51 physical damage cleave (2 ranks) (No damage debuff for hitting multiple enemies)

    162-182 damage griffin's wrath
    202-233 lunging strike

    And now the Great Weapon Fighter:

    Character Power: 144 Total
    Weapon Damage: 83-101
    38-45 physical damage Sure Strike (2 ranks)
    41-49 physical damage wicked strike (2 ranks) (damage debuff for every target hit beyond the first)
    165-195 physical damage Reaping Strike (2 ranks) (Approximately 3.2-3.7 seconds between each fully charged Reaping Strike)

    So we can see that the Great Weapon Fighter's abilities use not even half of the equipped sword's full power, while a Guardian Fighter's abilities use 100% +. Not to mention, Cleave has no damage debuff for hitting multiple enemies. Does this seem like it's keeping with the GWF's theme of "Great AoE Damage Dealer" to anyone else? It doesn't to me.

    This isn't even considering the GWF's other flaws, like Sprint not allowing you to "Dodge" enemy attacks like the Wizard's teleport. The only thing sprint is decent at is getting you out of a red zone.

    Ya makes you wonder.....
  • zardoz007zardoz007 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    Maybe we should have a thread just focusing on GWF abilities and how they compare to other classes.

    Note that the GWF is the only prime str class in the game meaning his strength is higher than any other classes yet his attacks are still putting up lower numbers than minimum strength rogues and GF's.
  • unjustbladeunjustblade Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 91
    edited April 2013
    I wonder about the damage debuff on Wicked Strike. Why are you PUNISHING the player for doing what the class is supposed to do? You should get a damage BUFF for every enemy hit beyond the first, not a debuff. That'd be like if they gave a Guardian Fighter a debuff to his damage the more damage he absorbed with his shield or lowered the rogues damage for going into stealth or the wizard's for using CC. It makes no logical sense.

    As a GWF, you're SUPPOSED to WANT to run into a group of enemies, because you know you'll kill them before they are able to do much if any real damage. It's when you come across a single tough enemy that should give you a cause for pause.
  • maiku217maiku217 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2013
    zardoz007 wrote: »
    The first 2 players who hit 60 on GWF did it through the leadership skill and by paying Astral diamonds, Ie not be anything that resembled combat and it can be done the same way on any character

    Total horse ****. I'm level 18 leadership and it's been 3 days of release, I'm level 43.
    PS: I've spent $600 USD, so go figure.
    ElfenLiedSig.gif
  • idontcomehereidontcomehere Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 156 Bounty Hunter
    edited April 2013
    tacc4990 wrote: »
    GWF should not be highest ANY target DPS because he's NOT A STRIKER. GWF is a Defender according to the official wiki (http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Great_Weapon_Fighter) and the official DnD rules.

    *clicks the link, sees ROLE "Damage Dealer, second defender" laughs* The info says "A fighter is a class with martial origin and excels in primary role of a Defender" Note it says fighter not GWF. Thats why we have GF who fits that, and GWF who fits the other half "A Great Weapon Fighter has a secondary role of a striker. They are warriors who eschew shields in favor of large two-handed weapons"

    They should be a damage dealer if they want to be, and why not hit as hard as Rogues, rogues arnt 'just' damage, their stealth and dodging lets them avoid the most powerful attacks, they get ranged skills and lots of CC. I'd prefer GWF match them in terms of damage, even with less CC and ranged options, and instead of a REAL dodge, they eat the damage instead. Who should win in a straight up fight do you think ? GWF or rogue, face to face, dont even move or use skills, just one classes HP, damage, and armor VS anothers? I'd honestly like to see someone test this because a GWF should not lose that.

    There are clearly three paragon paths, and probably will be prestige classes starting with swordmaster. They should AT THE LEAST encompass a DPS, a defense, and a hybrid path. Even better, with mix of prestige/paragon, get the 'support' role thrown in there, and let players lean towards single or aoe damage roles. All three of the TR's paths arnt damage right ?

    Also do we even know for sure they will be adding a class like Barbarian to be a 'striker' instead ? Because if they arnt then this is the 2h weapon striker we're stuck with.
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