Right now I have leveled to level 10 or 11 playing a Control Wizard, Great Weapon Fighter, Guardian Fighter and Trickster Roque.
With the GWF it was bad: I did not exactly keep tabs, but it feeltlike I needed to hit the same enemy type as many times as with the Guardian Figther. It did not feel like I was making more damage faster. While in a party with a Contol Wizard, I definitely sucked damage-making-wise and the GWF was the only character that died (in the sewer rats dungeon while the control wizard laughed his *** off.) AND what I still do not understand is why the damage of the "Sure Strike" of the GWF is 'slightly reduced for every target hit beyond the first', while the "Cleave" of the GF 'deals additional damage with the 3rd hit'. WhyOWhy?
Right now I do not know if the GWF would be better in higher levels and I do not care. My GWF was wipped after the Beta-weekends. It is the only class for which I have lost interest, because when I choose a non-spells, non-stealth, medium armor character with a freaking big weapon I want to see freaking relevant damage dealing.
Considering that nothing has changed from BWE4 as far as I was told, and that I leveled not one but two GWFs to 12 during BWE4 (didn't want to get too far not to spoil my "real" playthrough too much) so my memory of it is still fresh - you had to be doing something really wrong if the wererat dungeon gave you any problems at all.
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jnaathraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Well this thread is derailed and sidetracked to high heaven. No ones gonna remember or care about this powerlvling HAMSTER shortly. Soon enough the game will be full of 60s.
Back on track.. Yes.. the GWF needs some help.
Scout Tragold - "I haven't lived this long by being brave... it's just another word for stupid."
I'm sure some of you know me by the threads I created in the GWF/GF forums during the start of BW4 stating how bad the GWF seemed to be, especially at the earlier levels.
Like I said in my previous posts, I really feel that Cryptic Studios scaled the GWF for lvl 60 but didn't care about lvl 1-50+ as the damage seems to be scaled WAY to low.
I noticed it in BW4 and i'm noticing it now, GWF are having some major trouble even doing solo Quest / Dungeon content and are having to chug potions to even survive.
I've stated numerous amount of times that they were doing way too low damage and the fact that they nerfed their mobility even further, continues to gimp the level experience for GWF.
Why do you think that dude who hit lvl 60 used the Leadership profession to do it? Probably cuz leveling sucked really badly but also probably cuz he had the A.D. and could do it the easy way, if I was under the same situation I probably would have gained some easy levels using Leadership too if GWF was so bad at leveling.
Sure, I get it Cryptic, GWF needed to be tweaked at lvl 60 because the damage numbers were just too high, but not only did you tweak it at lvl 60, you completed ruined the scaling for GWF up to lvl 60 and removing their mobility like having Punishing Charge at a respectable level, just completely kills the GWF leveling experience.
I've seem some streams and the damage numbers are just way WAY too low, keep the numbers the same at lvl 60 whatever, but at least buff lower level damage. If they continue to not listen they are going to lose a lot of players / customers that specifically enjoy this class.
"There are more things in heaven and earth,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Also I wanted to add, that first impressions are so important when it comes to character development in RPGS.
If anyone new to the game tries out GWF for the first time and levels from lvl 1-20 and finds out he gets owned in Solo / PvP / Lowest DPS in Dungeons / can't quest without chugging potions and just dying all the time and taking forever to kill mobs, he's going to completely disregard that class and either move on to another or just quit.
The leveling experience is probably just as important right now as tuning the lvl 60 content. Everyone keeps saying at lvl 60 all these problems won't matter, but I guarantee you it will matter, it'll matter for as long as these problems are apparent. And it's apparent that this class has some major problems when it comes to leveling.
The whole experience is a pain, rather than being fun which is obviously the way it should be when playing ANY game. Why should lvl 1-59 be terrible just so they can balance the class at lvl 60? I find this problem absolutely terrible and wish they would at least address these issues and either state their opinion on the matter or at least give us SOME feedback about what's going on with this class.
People shouldn't have to suffer leveling their GWF just so Cryptic can have the class balanced at lvl 60. Cryptic can we please get some feedback on this?
"There are more things in heaven and earth,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
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divinehopeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 48
Right now I have leveled to level 10 or 11 playing a Control Wizard, Great Weapon Fighter, Guardian Fighter and Trickster Roque.
With the GWF it was bad: I did not exactly keep tabs, but it feeltlike I needed to hit the same enemy type as many times as with the Guardian Figther. It did not feel like I was making more damage faster. While in a party with a Contol Wizard, I definitely sucked damage-making-wise and the GWF was the only character that died (in the sewer rats dungeon while the control wizard laughed his *** off.) AND what I still do not understand is why the damage of the "Sure Strike" of the GWF is 'slightly reduced for every target hit beyond the first', while the "Cleave" of the GF 'deals additional damage with the 3rd hit'. WhyOWhy?
Right now I do not know if the GWF would be better in higher levels and I do not care. My GWF was wipped after the Beta-weekends. It is the only class for which I have lost interest, because when I choose a non-spells, non-stealth, medium armor character with a freaking big weapon I want to see freaking relevant damage dealing.
If BW4 was any indication then the GWF doesn't really get any punch until level 30 or so. As for the rest of your questions:
Sure Strike does less damage to each additional enemy because each additional enemy isn't your primary target. Think of it in terms of shooting multiple targets with one bullet. The bullet goes through the first target but loses a lot of power. That's the deal.
As for the cleave, it is following the same mechanics that most of the at-wills do. The at-wills that have multiple moves to them are essentially a combo attack performed while holding down one button, so it's a light -> light -> heavy! combo. Clerics, CW, TR and even the GF follow those exact same mechanics for at least one set of their at-wills.
Right now I think our damage is stinking at early levels because of two things, Reaping Strike & Defiance. Charge abilities suck, never do enough damage versus activation cost. With Reaping we sit there, get our asses beat on, then do rather lackluster damage. It's an all or nothing attack and if you try to use it on a boss and can't get to your 3rd tick before you have to get out of a red-zone you're boned.
With Defiance it's that that is where tons of our damage output comes from. Bad enough we require being hit in order to build the gauge which makes it far less useful in dungeons where you're not being smacked around all the time, but the lack of it at early levels means our DPS is going to suffer.
If reaping was replaced by our Cleave attack we'd have far less trouble and could then skip between mass AoE death and strong single target ***-whuppin'. Instead we have one button no one ever uses while we just sit around waiting to level up and get something useful.
Either way, stick to it. You'll see results soon enough but it still stinks having to work to 45 for true mobility and to have to go through so much of the early levels without being the AoE powerhouse that the class is promised to be.
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neverasherMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
watching both the GWF*not the leadership one+* streams and TR rogue streams that got to 60; they took about the same time to kill things, chugged many pots,and died to the same quest bosses. Mind you I don't think they understood the secrets of combat advantage and could of been doing much better.
There are frightening people that play MMOs for the bragging right of getting somewhere first. Even D&D MMOs.
So, to this person, "winning" was getting to max before anyone else. Which is pretty funny :P
You would have to be a moron to attempt to gain bragging rights without all the preparations ready (including financial preparations).
Tis already understood by the people who legitimately attempt to gain bragging rights.
Not the posers who want things handed to them for free.
However, if the level 60 Rogue also used zen to assist in leveling, then the spot of being the first F2P level 60 is still "open."
Technically, everyone playing before the 30th is using zen in the form of the Hero/Guardian packs to assist in leveling.
Well there still be the off chance that a player might have made a 2nd character (without the perks of the pack) & leveled that to 60.
Besides, only takes a little over a day to get to 60. (As seen from the GWF and TR streams)
('-')
Also I wanted to add, that first impressions are so important when it comes to character development in RPGS.
You said a ton there. Ret Paladin in WoW, comes to mind. Look how long it took certain specs in WOW to gain acceptance well after they became viable. My Prot Paladin used to get kicked from groups in early BC for normal dungeons without even being given a chance. The satisfaction was finding another group and PMing the original group members after I finished the run , often on Heroic. Most were under halfway done and still had a few curse words they hadn't gotten out of the way when they booted me with the advice "L2heal ****" ). Hopefully the GWF also rewards those with the faith to play it because its what they want.
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zetxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
This is very disappointing, I'm still gonna play a gwf, but when you see the huge number difference between the Gwf and the TR is just sad. Normal hits from Gwf go for 1k and they crit for around 5k. TR normal hits 4-5k and they crit for 19k. You can check them out in the live streams going on right now(this are two comparisons between two level 60s).
This is very disappointing, I'm still gonna play a gwf, but when you see the huge number difference between the Gwf and the TR is just sad. Normal hits from Gwf go for 1k and they crit for around 5k. TR normal hits 4-5k and they crit for 19k. You can check them out in the live streams going on right now(this are two comparisons between two level 60s).
Seriously O.O wauw... How can you even make stuff that unbalanced O.o seems completely and utterly unprofessional Hope they fix this, not only for us (the players) but also for themselves, cause if this keeps being the case... I can't see myself spending a lot of time playing.
The TR is a striker class. Comparing the GWF, which is a defender, to the TR is not going to give meaningful results when it comes to damage. Now, survivability is obviously an issue and the damage may be too low, but still, TR's damage will always be higher. This isn't WoW, it's DnD 4th Edition.
(I'm not exactly enjoying my GWF either. It's why I have been leveling my CW more. Might make a TR just to have one).
The TR is a striker class. Comparing the GWF, which is a defender, to the TR is not going to give meaningful results when it comes to damage. Now, survivability is obviously an issue and the damage may be too low, but still, TR's damage will always be higher. This isn't WoW, it's DnD 4th Edition.
(I'm not exactly enjoying my GWF either. It's why I have been leveling my CW more. Might make a TR just to have one).
But its still expected to be able to perform a DPS role. Just not as well, specifically on single target, as the TR. If its a true damage/defender hybrid then it should to X% of the damage of a pure DPS role and X% of the survivability of a pure defender role. Say 80% as effective for example, which is far from the ~25% dps numbers and extremely low survivability were seeing reported.
The TR is a striker class. Comparing the GWF, which is a defender, to the TR is not going to give meaningful results when it comes to damage. Now, survivability is obviously an issue and the damage may be too low, but still, TR's damage will always be higher. This isn't WoW, it's DnD 4th Edition.
(I'm not exactly enjoying my GWF either. It's why I have been leveling my CW more. Might make a TR just to have one).
with that said, they still need to give the GWF a identity, it cant do good at the defender role or the striker role or controller role...so it needs to be able to do good at one of them, not saying great just good, when my cleric companion is pulling agro away and i cant get it off of her then there is something wrong....
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No disagreement from me. I do agree that the GWF needs a buff offensively and defensively. I just commented on the direct comparisons to the TR.
Nice to agree with you on something ). But yeah I hope the majority of people aren't really asking for TR-like DPS from the GWF. Just like I hope IF GWF or any class needing a serious review it gets it ASAP.
Now that I think about it, they had plenty of classes they could have picked from why this one? Any of them could have been easier to place in a role. Shaman, warlord, barbarian...any of these would have made 10x more sense to use and easy to spec into....they tried to hard to get a 2h plate user and ended up with a bunch of confusion.
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Now that I think about it, they had plenty of classes they could have picked from why this one? Any of them could have been easier to place in a role. Shaman, warlord, barbarian...any of these would have made 10x more sense to use and easy to spec into....they tried to hard to get a 2h plate user and ended up with a bunch of confusion.
How many of the 5 classes use plate?
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divinehopeMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 48
bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited April 2013
the GWF IS suppose to out damage the TR, in aoe, just like how clerics and CW's outdamage the rogue in AoE, the GWF holds aggro through aoe damage, whill the GF holds aggro on single boss mobs using single target damage
Currently, the GWF does bad aoe damage and cant tank, GWF needs a buff in BOTH of these area's, whill single target dps remains under rogues
the GWF IS suppose to out damage the TR, in aoe, just like how clerics and CW's outdamage the rogue in AoE, the GWF holds aggro through aoe damage, whill the GF holds aggro on single boss mobs using single target damage
Currently, the GWF does bad aoe damage and cant tank, GWF needs a buff in BOTH of these area's, whill single target dps remains under rogues
GWF is a Defender not a Striker. Why are you comparing Defender DPS to Striker DPS?
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bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
GWF is a Defender not a Striker. Why are you comparing Defender DPS to Striker DPS?
I didnt say GWF dps, I said damage, which means enough aoe damage for the GWF to hold aggro off of all the other classes, the GWF should easily out damage a trickster rogue in aoe situations because it defends through damage, where the GF defends through mitigation and blocking
The TR is not an AoE striker, so it should not out damage a GWF in those situations, simple to understand really
Comments
thanks for the link.
Hasn't been posted in the non-beta-forum (or i missed it).
curious why so many still complain that they feel gwf is lacking now, guess i have to find out myself tomorrow^^
Considering that nothing has changed from BWE4 as far as I was told, and that I leveled not one but two GWFs to 12 during BWE4 (didn't want to get too far not to spoil my "real" playthrough too much) so my memory of it is still fresh - you had to be doing something really wrong if the wererat dungeon gave you any problems at all.
Back on track.. Yes.. the GWF needs some help.
Like I said in my previous posts, I really feel that Cryptic Studios scaled the GWF for lvl 60 but didn't care about lvl 1-50+ as the damage seems to be scaled WAY to low.
I noticed it in BW4 and i'm noticing it now, GWF are having some major trouble even doing solo Quest / Dungeon content and are having to chug potions to even survive.
I've stated numerous amount of times that they were doing way too low damage and the fact that they nerfed their mobility even further, continues to gimp the level experience for GWF.
Why do you think that dude who hit lvl 60 used the Leadership profession to do it? Probably cuz leveling sucked really badly but also probably cuz he had the A.D. and could do it the easy way, if I was under the same situation I probably would have gained some easy levels using Leadership too if GWF was so bad at leveling.
Sure, I get it Cryptic, GWF needed to be tweaked at lvl 60 because the damage numbers were just too high, but not only did you tweak it at lvl 60, you completed ruined the scaling for GWF up to lvl 60 and removing their mobility like having Punishing Charge at a respectable level, just completely kills the GWF leveling experience.
I've seem some streams and the damage numbers are just way WAY too low, keep the numbers the same at lvl 60 whatever, but at least buff lower level damage. If they continue to not listen they are going to lose a lot of players / customers that specifically enjoy this class.
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
If anyone new to the game tries out GWF for the first time and levels from lvl 1-20 and finds out he gets owned in Solo / PvP / Lowest DPS in Dungeons / can't quest without chugging potions and just dying all the time and taking forever to kill mobs, he's going to completely disregard that class and either move on to another or just quit.
The leveling experience is probably just as important right now as tuning the lvl 60 content. Everyone keeps saying at lvl 60 all these problems won't matter, but I guarantee you it will matter, it'll matter for as long as these problems are apparent. And it's apparent that this class has some major problems when it comes to leveling.
The whole experience is a pain, rather than being fun which is obviously the way it should be when playing ANY game. Why should lvl 1-59 be terrible just so they can balance the class at lvl 60? I find this problem absolutely terrible and wish they would at least address these issues and either state their opinion on the matter or at least give us SOME feedback about what's going on with this class.
People shouldn't have to suffer leveling their GWF just so Cryptic can have the class balanced at lvl 60. Cryptic can we please get some feedback on this?
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
If BW4 was any indication then the GWF doesn't really get any punch until level 30 or so. As for the rest of your questions:
Sure Strike does less damage to each additional enemy because each additional enemy isn't your primary target. Think of it in terms of shooting multiple targets with one bullet. The bullet goes through the first target but loses a lot of power. That's the deal.
As for the cleave, it is following the same mechanics that most of the at-wills do. The at-wills that have multiple moves to them are essentially a combo attack performed while holding down one button, so it's a light -> light -> heavy! combo. Clerics, CW, TR and even the GF follow those exact same mechanics for at least one set of their at-wills.
Right now I think our damage is stinking at early levels because of two things, Reaping Strike & Defiance. Charge abilities suck, never do enough damage versus activation cost. With Reaping we sit there, get our asses beat on, then do rather lackluster damage. It's an all or nothing attack and if you try to use it on a boss and can't get to your 3rd tick before you have to get out of a red-zone you're boned.
With Defiance it's that that is where tons of our damage output comes from. Bad enough we require being hit in order to build the gauge which makes it far less useful in dungeons where you're not being smacked around all the time, but the lack of it at early levels means our DPS is going to suffer.
If reaping was replaced by our Cleave attack we'd have far less trouble and could then skip between mass AoE death and strong single target ***-whuppin'. Instead we have one button no one ever uses while we just sit around waiting to level up and get something useful.
Either way, stick to it. You'll see results soon enough but it still stinks having to work to 45 for true mobility and to have to go through so much of the early levels without being the AoE powerhouse that the class is promised to be.
You would have to be a moron to attempt to gain bragging rights without all the preparations ready (including financial preparations).
Tis already understood by the people who legitimately attempt to gain bragging rights.
Not the posers who want things handed to them for free.
However, if the level 60 Rogue also used zen to assist in leveling, then the spot of being the first F2P level 60 is still "open."
Technically, everyone playing before the 30th is using zen in the form of the Hero/Guardian packs to assist in leveling.
*takes a look*
Okay...I see this GWF doleing out 5k hits every other second. Is that underpowered?? Or is it just gear-dependant like most melee classes in MMORPGs?
Well there still be the off chance that a player might have made a 2nd character (without the perks of the pack) & leveled that to 60.
Besides, only takes a little over a day to get to 60. (As seen from the GWF and TR streams)
('-')
You said a ton there. Ret Paladin in WoW, comes to mind. Look how long it took certain specs in WOW to gain acceptance well after they became viable. My Prot Paladin used to get kicked from groups in early BC for normal dungeons without even being given a chance. The satisfaction was finding another group and PMing the original group members after I finished the run , often on Heroic. Most were under halfway done and still had a few curse words they hadn't gotten out of the way when they booted me with the advice "L2heal ****" ). Hopefully the GWF also rewards those with the faith to play it because its what they want.
Seriously O.O wauw... How can you even make stuff that unbalanced O.o seems completely and utterly unprofessional Hope they fix this, not only for us (the players) but also for themselves, cause if this keeps being the case... I can't see myself spending a lot of time playing.
(I'm not exactly enjoying my GWF either. It's why I have been leveling my CW more. Might make a TR just to have one).
But its still expected to be able to perform a DPS role. Just not as well, specifically on single target, as the TR. If its a true damage/defender hybrid then it should to X% of the damage of a pure DPS role and X% of the survivability of a pure defender role. Say 80% as effective for example, which is far from the ~25% dps numbers and extremely low survivability were seeing reported.
with that said, they still need to give the GWF a identity, it cant do good at the defender role or the striker role or controller role...so it needs to be able to do good at one of them, not saying great just good, when my cleric companion is pulling agro away and i cant get it off of her then there is something wrong....
Nice to agree with you on something ). But yeah I hope the majority of people aren't really asking for TR-like DPS from the GWF. Just like I hope IF GWF or any class needing a serious review it gets it ASAP.
How many of the 5 classes use plate?
3, but it does not really matter.
Currently, the GWF does bad aoe damage and cant tank, GWF needs a buff in BOTH of these area's, whill single target dps remains under rogues
I didnt say GWF dps, I said damage, which means enough aoe damage for the GWF to hold aggro off of all the other classes, the GWF should easily out damage a trickster rogue in aoe situations because it defends through damage, where the GF defends through mitigation and blocking
The TR is not an AoE striker, so it should not out damage a GWF in those situations, simple to understand really