The reason folks "attack the PVP community" (strong words there) is because they have seen it impact/degrade/destroy the PVE environment they love in other games. There is really no debating that this is a one-way nerf bat from PVP to PVE.
I like driving through the country enjoying the scenery. You like street racing. My style of driving might annoy you, but your style could destroy me. See the issue?
Because PVP players are the loud majority whiners in game forums and they tend to get listened too, then they change the game and now everyone is in the forums whining. PVP players are never happy or content with anything.
And as it pertains to this title, Neverwinter and its associated titles have always been about D&D and RPG content.
Please don't lose that focus or this game will be dead before its too late to notice or do anything about it.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited April 2013
In my MMO experience (and I started with Ragnarok Online quite a few years ago), I've yet to see PvE killing PvP. Or PvP killing PvE.
I have, however, seen developers listen to a community made of whiny PvPers who said "no PvE, only PvP!", and "de-facto" kill all PvE content in the game with a single patch...
What was that... ah yes, I whink it was Warhammer Online 1.4.
Well, at least they always advertised that PvP was their main focus, but hey, they said goodbye to my money from that patch, that's for sure.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but no, it is not a one way relationship. PvE changes and updates can and often do drop the ball on PvP in MMOs - even in PvP focused ones. It doesn't even have to be class mechanics, it can be also items from PvE that are better at PvP than their PvP reward equivalents.
I'm sorry to have my bubble burst, as well. I will stipulate that there may have been an occurrence of PVE impacting PVP in a negative way. I can only say that I don't know of single instance of PVP focused game being destroyed by PVE. Opposite examples have been made ad nauseam in these and other forums. I am not saying you're wrong, I just don't see them weighted anywhere near the same in forum discussions.
Back to my original point; You really don't see why PVE supporters worry a great deal about PVP supporters negatively impacting their game play? Although your counterpoint was meant to refute my position, you actually help to point out how either side, having different desires, can feel that the other folks are opposed to them. I'm not saying either side is "right" or "better", just that it should be obvious why we disagree. I have no use for PVP and wish that it was not a part of Neverwinter. I have never felt the need to start a thread or even comment on a thread under the topic of PVP vs PVE, but I am seeing tons of PVP focused posts and fear that I must add my voice to the discussion to keep the devs aware that there are 2 camps and we are important too.
Because PVP players are the loud majority whiners in game forums and they tend to get listened too, then they change the game and now everyone is in the forums whining. PVP players are never happy or content with anything.
And as it pertains to this title, Neverwinter and its associated titles have always been about D&D and RPG content.
Please don't lose that focus or this game will be dead before its too late to notice or do anything about it.
Quit whining WoW nerd. Putting some effort into PvP will not hurt anything. Worst case scenario they can make skills work differently in pvp and pve, just like they did in other popular MMOs.
I'm sorry to have my bubble burst, as well. I will stipulate that there may have been an occurrence of PVE impacting PVP in a negative way. I can only say that I don't know of single instance of PVP focused game being destroyed by PVE. Opposite examples have been made ad nauseam in these and other forums. I am not saying you're wrong, I just don't see them weighted anywhere near the same in forum discussions.
Maybe because we actually don't whine as much as you accuse us of? It might be difficult to define what it means to "kill" the game, but Cataclysm virtually killed Arenas, the game used to have a major support on the esport scene in late TBC and mid-late WotLK (after the DK got somewhat in line), with streamed tournaments that were actually fun to watch (oh the epic Orangemarmelade game!), now it's just blizzard tournaments and some odd shots. It didn't kill the game as a whole, but it did effectively break it for a lot of people.
Back to my original point; You really don't see why PVE supporters worry a great deal about PVP supporters negatively impacting their game play? Although your counterpoint was meant to refute my position, you actually help to point out how either side, having different desires, can feel that the other folks are opposed to them. I'm not saying either side is "right" or "better", just that it should be obvious why we disagree. I have no use for PVP and wish that it was not a part of Neverwinter. I have never felt the need to start a thread or even comment on a thread under the topic of PVP vs PVE, but I am seeing tons of PVP focused posts and fear that I must add my voice to the discussion to keep the devs aware that there are 2 camps and we are important too.
I absolutely totally do see why PvE folks worry about PvP having a negative impact on their experience. You are fully entitled to be worried. But I also don't think you have to worry much about reminding developers that there are two camps, they know it and they do have stats regarding on which part of the game people focus on more, even in GW1 (which was a ground up PvP heavy game) the majority of people played PvE or even just PvE. Cheers.
Maybe because we actually don't whine as much as you accuse us of? It might be difficult to define what it means to "kill" the game, but Cataclysm virtually killed Arenas, the game used to have a major support on the esport scene in late TBC and mid-late WotLK (after the DK got somewhat in line), with streamed tournaments that were actually fun to watch (oh the epic Orangemarmelade game!), now it's just blizzard tournaments and some odd shots. It didn't kill the game as a whole, but it did effectively break it for a lot of people.
I never accused anyone of whining. I did not say anything derogatory about you. I think you have me confused with someone else.
PS: I'm not up to speed on PVP focused games. The only one I played to any extent was GW1. (the nerf bat swung hard in every direction in that game) Not sure what those other examples you gave are...LOL.
It was meant to be a plural "you", not targeted at you in particular either. Peace.
No worries, brother. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was one of "those guys". I enjoy a healthy debate/discussion. It's the only way to find the truth. You learn, you educate and everyone is better off in the end.
I played PnP from first through 3rd ed. My group would frequenly PvP with each other outside of the story line. ie, DM takes a break to grab food, bio, whatever...we started throwin down on each other. Our DM even built PvP into his story line at times.
One of the characters in my group (a rogue) came upon a special weapon. A sentient weapon, http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Intelligent_Items, with a high charisma and special powers of its own. Chaotic evi alignment, it would speak telepathically to the rogue and convince him to attack other members of the party at random times. Yes, our DM was an evil bast**d, but it was also a lot of fun.
You can't say that D&D isnt about PvP, because the entire point of D&D was leaving that option to the Dungeon Master. Maybe YOUR PnP group was PVE focused, doesnt mean that PvP can't be a big part of D&D. Its all up to the discretion of the Dungeon Master, and thats the way it should be.
Not every one likes/plays PvP. I don't, unless its in a game where it actually fits..Like COD. Cannot abide the PvP in Defiance. Same with DCUO. Haven't tried the Marvel Heroes PvP yet, but im sure its gonna suck as well.
I realize it is not the main focus. I think you underestimate how many people actually do play pvp.
BTW: Aion sucks
We aren't underestimating them. We are simply saying that those players will probably not be happy with this game, as it's a dnd game, and in dnd "pvp" = The wizard wins. The games not made for it. Go play a game that is made for pvp, like EvE.
You can't say that D&D isnt about PvP, because the entire point of D&D was leaving that option to the Dungeon Master. Maybe YOUR PnP group was PVE focused, doesnt mean that PvP can't be a big part of D&D. Its all up to the discretion of the Dungeon Master, and thats the way it should be.
D&D is an imaginative, social experience that engages players in a rich fantasy world filled with larger-than-life heroes, deadly monsters, and diverse settings. As a hobby game, D&D is an ongoing activity to which players might devote hours of their time—much like a weekly poker game—getting together with friends on a regular basis for weeks, months, or even years.
Players create heroic fantasy characters -- mighty warriors, stealthy rogues, or powerful wizards -- which they guide through an ongoing series of adventures, working together to defeat monsters and other challenges and growing in power, glory, and achievement. The game offers endless possibilities and a multitude of choices . . . more choices than even the most sophisticated computer game, because you can do whatever you can imagine!
I can come up with even more examples to show you that PvP is not inherently a part of D&D. Sure, you can take a computer tower and fill it with dirt for flowers, but that's not the designed purpose.
That being said, I believe PvP should be in the game, but it should take a backseat and not adversely affect PvE.
If you don't like PvP, thats fine, you dont have to queue for it! But the point is, people shouldnt come to the forums whining about PvP just because the don't like it. Why cause problems for the people who DO like PvP? The OP simply asking Cryptic not to forget about us folks that enjoy PvP and a bunch of no nothings jump on the train about "D&D isnt about PvP". They have no idea what they're talking about. D&D is about whatever the dungeon master wants it to be.
If you don't like PvP, thats fine, you dont have to queue for it! But the point is, people shouldnt come to the forums whining about PvP just because the don't like it. Why cause problems for the people who DO like PvP? The OP simply asking Cryptic not to forget about us folks that enjoy PvP and a bunch of no nothings jump on the train about "D&D isnt about PvP". They have no idea what they're talking about. D&D is about whatever the dungeon master wants it to be.
If your DM is running a game where you square off over a battleground... get a new DM. Well i guess maybe not so much if you're a necromancer archetype that's roflstoping everything into the ground.
Ever since the 70s, "pvp" pretty much meant this: dead fighter, victorious wizard with full HP.
We are talking about how this might not be the game for you because if the pve game is modified for the purpose of pvp, it will no longer resemble dnd, because "balancing classes for pvp" will homogonize them. It's happened in every game that has a major pvp focus.
If they want to throw in battlegrounds, that's fine, but when you cats start whining about how x class does too much burst or y class has too much control.... that's where the line needs to be drawn, imo.
I realize it is not the main focus. I think you underestimate how many people actually do play pvp.
BTW: Aion sucks
I think you are underestimating the number of games out there that have a heavy focus on PvP. If they had enough time to work out an extensive PvP system I would be sort of surprised, considering how lacking the game has been up to this point.
They could implement it in a way that does not effect PVE as they do in Rift or in LOTRO (monsters) - a separate setup i rift or a separate game in LOTRO. anyway im for PVE in this game but who knows about the future.
Polls have been launched. PvP is an afterthought, if that, in D&D...
Since 1974 tabletop through today, D&D has been about PvE, adventuring, grouping and questing... this game is following the same paths that has made true D&D the product that has entranced millions of gamers over decades of play.
This is not your standard MMO. This is not your PvP mmo.
How many topics must the same people start to get this point across.
Your comments are OPINION and not fact. I have played DnD since 1980 and am telling you that you are wrong. The best DnD campaigns we ever had were PVP. Because you chose not to play that way does not mean that is how DnD was meant or not meant to be played. I wish people would stop acting like their opinion was fact, because it is not.
Anyone who has picked up a PHB can tell people Dungeons and Dragons is not a PvP based game
Oh you'll get your PvP... and according to the Dev's.. You'll get it when everything else has been finished because Dungeons & dragons is not BASED off of PvP.... thats the point I am stressing.
PvP players want this game to have a PvP foundation based off their discussions, topics and posts.... but your beating your head against a wall because...
D&D is not PvP...
Explaning what the core base of Dungeons and Dragons is, is not trolling...
it is clarifying...
Again you are wrong, Chain Mail, which is what DnD was based off of was always about PVP. Get off your high PVE horse and stop spouting your opinion is fact when it is not and it is incorrect anyways.
I'd like to see the ability to make PvP maps and games in the foundry. Let the PvE players complain all they want, they have been catered to in all MMOs, they won't expect any less in Neverwinter.
Really? Have you played Guild Wars 2? What a completely garbage game for PvE. The most monotonous and redundant HAMSTER I've ever seen. That game is completely catered to PvP. It's pretty to look at but there is no substance there. That's just one example, I'm sure there are others....
Your comments are OPINION and not fact. I have played DnD since 1980 and am telling you that you are wrong. The best DnD campaigns we ever had were PVP. Because you chose not to play that way does not mean that is how DnD was meant or not meant to be played. I wish people would stop acting like their opinion was fact, because it is not.
Hahaha dude...just stop, seriously. You're not doing yourself any favors here. "The best DnD campaigns we ever had were PVP." You're complaining about someone else speaking from a place of opinion and not fact? That statement is 100% opinion my friend. His statements however, are facts. Just do a little bit of research...he's speaking about the actual history of DnD, not an opinion.
Hahaha dude...just stop, seriously. You're not doing yourself any favors here. "The best DnD campaigns we ever had were PVP." You're complaining about someone else speaking from a place of opinion and not fact? That statement is 100% opinion my friend. His statements however, are facts. Just do a little bit of research...he's speaking about the actual history of DnD, not an opinion.
I offered an opinion and not fact, that is the difference, so do yourself a favor and get some comprehension lessons. His statements are not fact, but are opinion, I do not have to research, I have played DnD as long as he has or longer I am willing to bet. I have 2 bookshelves full of DnD books and hundreds of lead and pewter figurines. His opinion is not fact if you like it or not.
Don't worry folks, PvP is not an afterthought. Lich is just expressing his views, nothing official.
First of all the polls that were put up are a small demographic. I am sure that PvP is in the game because Cryptic knows there is value in it, otherwise why would it be there? Secondly, all you have to do is log into the most popular western MMO to date and look at the population of RP servers to PvP servers to know who the bigger demographic is. Thirdly, it don't matter what YOU think PnP DnD is, at its heart it has ALWAYS been PvP. DM's versus the party, plain and simple. It was always about them matching wits against each other in a good natured, fun, and fair way. Lastly, the devs love PvP and talk about how much they test it and enjoy it in Neverwinter.
Oh BTW, they have also talked about doing PvP maps in the foundry, it is in the plans for the future.
Just because YOU, yes you, Lich. Just because you THINK anything does not make it so. Thank god that the developer is not so narrow minded. There is plenty of room in Neverwinter for all. PvE, PvP, RP, Raiding, whatever. I agree that the main focus of the game should be on PvE and that it is the largest demographic, however to completely discount PvP would be silly. I really never understood why people attack the PvP community, it is voluntary, if you don't like it then just don't participate in it. Cryptic will have statistics on how many hours are spent in PvP versus PvE and I am sure they will put the development dollars where it makes the most sense. This is not YOUR game, this is OUR game. Show a little respect for something bigger than your own selfish desires.
Ok argantis, point taken. I'm going to have to call you out on saying PvP is at the heart of DnD though. DM's matching wits against the people actually running the dungeon isn't the same as what we're talking about with modern PvP...you're better than that. Modern PvP seems to be one giant pissing contest for the most part. A party of adventurers out to try to slay...another party of adventurers? Yeah, seems to be in the spirit of DnD to me...? My only other point is...although some servers may be more clogged with PvPer's as you say, that doesn't mean they spend any money. If I had to guess I would say that most people that primarily play PvP spend slim to none on any game they play. The people trying to enjoy and enrich their PvE experience are the people fueling the game and actually spending money. How many people bought Founder's Packs to have PvP play as their main focus do you think? I'm guessing not many. Filling servers is one thing, and that's all well and good...earning the company a profit is something else.
Ok argantis, point taken. I'm going to have to call you out on saying PvP is at the heart of DnD though. DM's matching wits against the people actually running the dungeon isn't the same as what we're talking about with modern PvP...you're better than that. My only other point is...although some servers may be more clogged with PvPer's as you say, that doesn't mean they spend any money. If I had to guess I would say that most people that primarily play PvP spend slim to none on any game they play. The people trying to enjoy and enrich their PvE experience are the people fueling the game and actually spending money. How money people bought Founder's Packs to have PvP play as their main focus do you think? I'm guessing not many. Filling servers is one thing, and that's all well and good...earning the company a profit is something else.
Show us the research to back up your opinion. Bet you can't because it doesn't exist. Another person stating an opinion as fact and being incorrect.
Show us the research to back up your opinion. Bet you can't because it doesn't exist. Another person stating an opinion as fact and being incorrect.
Well by using the words "If I had to guess" I was hoping that might clue you into the fact (no pun intended) that I was speaking from a place of opinion and not fact. Not sure where the assumption is coming from that I could actually back something like that up with research, but ok...
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karsuskMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited April 2013
No pvp in a F2P makes it stand for forgettable to play.
Comments
Because PVP players are the loud majority whiners in game forums and they tend to get listened too, then they change the game and now everyone is in the forums whining. PVP players are never happy or content with anything.
And as it pertains to this title, Neverwinter and its associated titles have always been about D&D and RPG content.
Please don't lose that focus or this game will be dead before its too late to notice or do anything about it.
I have, however, seen developers listen to a community made of whiny PvPers who said "no PvE, only PvP!", and "de-facto" kill all PvE content in the game with a single patch...
What was that... ah yes, I whink it was Warhammer Online 1.4.
Well, at least they always advertised that PvP was their main focus, but hey, they said goodbye to my money from that patch, that's for sure.
I'm sorry to have my bubble burst, as well. I will stipulate that there may have been an occurrence of PVE impacting PVP in a negative way. I can only say that I don't know of single instance of PVP focused game being destroyed by PVE. Opposite examples have been made ad nauseam in these and other forums. I am not saying you're wrong, I just don't see them weighted anywhere near the same in forum discussions.
Back to my original point; You really don't see why PVE supporters worry a great deal about PVP supporters negatively impacting their game play? Although your counterpoint was meant to refute my position, you actually help to point out how either side, having different desires, can feel that the other folks are opposed to them. I'm not saying either side is "right" or "better", just that it should be obvious why we disagree. I have no use for PVP and wish that it was not a part of Neverwinter. I have never felt the need to start a thread or even comment on a thread under the topic of PVP vs PVE, but I am seeing tons of PVP focused posts and fear that I must add my voice to the discussion to keep the devs aware that there are 2 camps and we are important too.
Quit whining WoW nerd. Putting some effort into PvP will not hurt anything. Worst case scenario they can make skills work differently in pvp and pve, just like they did in other popular MMOs.
Maybe because we actually don't whine as much as you accuse us of? It might be difficult to define what it means to "kill" the game, but Cataclysm virtually killed Arenas, the game used to have a major support on the esport scene in late TBC and mid-late WotLK (after the DK got somewhat in line), with streamed tournaments that were actually fun to watch (oh the epic Orangemarmelade game!), now it's just blizzard tournaments and some odd shots. It didn't kill the game as a whole, but it did effectively break it for a lot of people.
I absolutely totally do see why PvE folks worry about PvP having a negative impact on their experience. You are fully entitled to be worried. But I also don't think you have to worry much about reminding developers that there are two camps, they know it and they do have stats regarding on which part of the game people focus on more, even in GW1 (which was a ground up PvP heavy game) the majority of people played PvE or even just PvE. Cheers.
It was meant to be a plural "you", not targeted at you in particular either. Peace.
No worries, brother. Just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was one of "those guys". I enjoy a healthy debate/discussion. It's the only way to find the truth. You learn, you educate and everyone is better off in the end.
One of the characters in my group (a rogue) came upon a special weapon. A sentient weapon, http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Intelligent_Items, with a high charisma and special powers of its own. Chaotic evi alignment, it would speak telepathically to the rogue and convince him to attack other members of the party at random times. Yes, our DM was an evil bast**d, but it was also a lot of fun.
You can't say that D&D isnt about PvP, because the entire point of D&D was leaving that option to the Dungeon Master. Maybe YOUR PnP group was PVE focused, doesnt mean that PvP can't be a big part of D&D. Its all up to the discretion of the Dungeon Master, and thats the way it should be.
We aren't underestimating them. We are simply saying that those players will probably not be happy with this game, as it's a dnd game, and in dnd "pvp" = The wizard wins. The games not made for it. Go play a game that is made for pvp, like EvE.
I can come up with even more examples to show you that PvP is not inherently a part of D&D. Sure, you can take a computer tower and fill it with dirt for flowers, but that's not the designed purpose.
That being said, I believe PvP should be in the game, but it should take a backseat and not adversely affect PvE.
If your DM is running a game where you square off over a battleground... get a new DM. Well i guess maybe not so much if you're a necromancer archetype that's roflstoping everything into the ground.
Ever since the 70s, "pvp" pretty much meant this: dead fighter, victorious wizard with full HP.
We are talking about how this might not be the game for you because if the pve game is modified for the purpose of pvp, it will no longer resemble dnd, because "balancing classes for pvp" will homogonize them. It's happened in every game that has a major pvp focus.
If they want to throw in battlegrounds, that's fine, but when you cats start whining about how x class does too much burst or y class has too much control.... that's where the line needs to be drawn, imo.
And the profligate usage of terms such as "carebear" figures into this, exactly how?
I think you are underestimating the number of games out there that have a heavy focus on PvP. If they had enough time to work out an extensive PvP system I would be sort of surprised, considering how lacking the game has been up to this point.
Your comments are OPINION and not fact. I have played DnD since 1980 and am telling you that you are wrong. The best DnD campaigns we ever had were PVP. Because you chose not to play that way does not mean that is how DnD was meant or not meant to be played. I wish people would stop acting like their opinion was fact, because it is not.
Again you are wrong, Chain Mail, which is what DnD was based off of was always about PVP. Get off your high PVE horse and stop spouting your opinion is fact when it is not and it is incorrect anyways.
I offered an opinion and not fact, that is the difference, so do yourself a favor and get some comprehension lessons.
Show us the research to back up your opinion. Bet you can't because it doesn't exist. Another person stating an opinion as fact and being incorrect.