PvP. It is the killer of mmos. Look at all the mmos that have failed just because they added pvp. WoW, Rift, SWtor, WAR, Aion, GW1, GW2, Tera... the list goes on; all dead or ruined due to pvp.
And those pvpers. They are a scourge of the mmo player base. Horrible people.
In pve I have never had little Elins decked out in +12 VM gear jumping up and down in end-game dungeons demanding that I be kicked, spamming "kick, kick, kick" because I didn't have glowing gear; I have never had kills or nodes stolen, never had people maliciously following me around just to prevent me from levelling by stealing kills, never had people spamming obscenities in chat.
Nope. The pve crowd are so pure and upstanding. You will never see them trolling constructive posts about how to enhance the already great pvp in this game. They never stoop to insulting, brow-bashing, or demeaning others, or telling them to just "go play another game".
And really, the nerve of these pvpers! Trying to come to our game, our game, our game and pollute it with their dangerous and unconventional ideas. I mean this game is based on D&D. D&D! A game where there is absolutely no sense that the DM is competing against the players (such as in a game like Descent) and never has a campaign involved any fighting between players.
These pvpers just don't get it. D&D is solely a pve experience and no person that was ever involved in D&D could possibly stoop to have anything to do with pvp. That is why WotC NEVER made pvp skirmish games like D&D minis or D&D Dungeon Command, or had pvp scenarios in their D&D adventure board game series. They knew that people who love D&D would never want to have anything to do with pvp.
So fear pvp; keep your ears and eyes shut to the corrupting presence of pvpers; shun them and keep true to the fold- to the purity of D&D which can be wholly found in a pve mmo experience.
I'm telling you- give them an inch and they will take a mile; before you know it our whole game will be ruined. A single positive post about pvp threatens our very existence!
I'm not sure if this post was supposed to be sarcastic or not. If it was - well done, if it wasn't - well, it only makes it even more hilarious.
Back in Champions Online, there were a ton of people that were interested in pvp and it literally took years to get updates to those facets of the game.
Please, let's not repeat the same mistake - a lot of people are interested in pvp in this game as well, please try your best.
Thank you
Cryptic doesn't do PvP balance. They just tack it on and let it fly. CO and STO are both shining examples.
Seriously though, if you're hoping this game is going to have a good PvP scene that isn't wildly unbalanced or super cheeseball... I wouldn't hold my breath.
On the bright side, they rarely screw up the game by nerfing the **** out of classes in PvP and then pissing off all the PvEers, so there is that.
PvP. It is the killer of mmos. Look at all the mmos that have failed just because they added pvp. WoW, Rift, SWtor, WAR, Aion, GW1, GW2, Tera
Uh huh, pvp killed GW2. Note- almost 30 servers of very high status. Its dead. Beleive it or not, even the carebears like some pvp to break up their grind. The games with low player bases are those who ignore pvp.
I'm not sure if this post was supposed to be sarcastic or not. If it was - well done, if it wasn't - well, it only makes it even more hilarious.
Would I be breaking forum rules if I titled it "Ode to Lichlament and friends"?
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vatashaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
The main problem with games that have both PVE and PVP is that they never seem to be able to balance the game and both PVE players and PVP players suffer.
I don't think this game can handle both and is basically a PVE game. Nothing wrong with that plenty of other games that have plenty of PVP that is done well.
I enjoy the large scale free roam style pvp maps that never stop going like those found in TSW or GW2. Especially when you have the option of roving warbands or keep assault/defense.
Arena style pvp just doesnt do it for me without copious amounts of alcohol. Maybe it's the lack of epicness that comes with smaller numbers or the volume of drama queens that are addicted to branding people noobs but I just dont really like it anymore.
I used to enjoy them in wow way back in vanilla before blizz made the pvp system into something that rewarded afkers and leechers more than those who were willing to fight. Back then AV battles could last all day and were more just than a pve zerg to the boss. But now they tend to be the cause of pve nerfs thanks to a certain build being considered OP and having shedloads of moaning about it on the forums.
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tekaruMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The mistake would be nerfing classes for PvP at the expense of PvE.
yeah, too many other MMOs do that. I realize it's challenging to keep classes balanced for PvP AND PvE. but if they lose focus on one or the other, it becomes harder and harder to balance classes after the fact.
that was one of the things I really liked about Warhammer Online, for example, the classes and abilities were designed from the ground up to behave a certain way. which worked wonders for PvP.
Uh huh, pvp killed GW2. Note- almost 30 servers of very high status. Its dead. Beleive it or not, even the carebears like some pvp to break up their grind. The games with low player bases are those who ignore pvp.
I am, at best, thoroughly ambivalent about PvP in MMO's in general. The above is part of the reason why. The other parts are being constantly harrassed by "So-and-so challenges you to a duel to the death" screens *constantly* appearing right when I am doing something. I hurriedly decline, then unbeknownst to the challenger, con them, and sure enough, they invariably con red to me. Fair fight? Indeed...
Yet another aspect was having, *by design* to cross PvP territory to acess PvE, then being attacked by someone who is ten times my level. Again, fair fight? Right! PvP'ers need to realize that attitudes like mine were *not* formed in a vacuum, springing full-fledged, without any cause whatsoever. No, they are the *cumulative* result of days of gaming ruined by PvP'ers, who had supposedly enriched their gaming experience, at the expense of mine...
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delgatto42Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 135Bounty Hunter
edited April 2013
I m one of those people that play PvP oriented mmo's when I need PvP, and play PvE oriented MMO's when I want PvE. You know what is always full of fail? Games that think they can do both well.
You want PvP, go play some RFO or Planetside 2. You want PvE, try Warframe, or play some Neverwinter. Mixing generally means you get to feel crappy at everything, and many many 'balance' nerfs to everyone for both aspects of the game, till everything you play is stupidly underwhelming.
I'm not saying games can't have both, but games can't do both well. PvP is Neverwinter is fairly lame, and unbalanced. I'm cool with that as long as PvE never changes because of the PvP crowd. And no, i don't really enjoy playing TR nor CW, so I'm not just saying that because I want to win in PvP. I'm saying that cause I jsut don't give a **** about PvP in one of the best PvE games I've had the pleasure of playing.
When he gets to Heaven To Saint Peter he will say, "Hand me 4d6. Lets roll the dice and play!"
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pat13ntzeroMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Polls have been launched. PvP is an afterthought, if that, in D&D...
Since 1974 tabletop through today, D&D has been about PvE, adventuring, grouping and questing... this game is following the same paths that has made true D&D the product that has entranced millions of gamers over decades of play.
This is not your standard MMO. This is not your PvP mmo.
How many topics must the same people start to get this point across.
Not only him, once our whole dnd group got killed by our mage, het got angry with us because we kept making jokes about the **** in his pants..
On a serious note, pvp is fun when done right. And the arcade style combat of this game is very much suited for pvp. I really hope someone will add a 3d dota pvp map, with pc and npc interaction.....
Edit... You can overdo things, adding the word S h i t to the list of blocked words.. Common thats really overdone
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blasph3m3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I've tried to read as much of this as I could cope with, which means I may have missed some points but this is the way I see it:
PvP is in Neverwinter because without it Cryptic would lose a substantial player demographic and thus, the money that demographic would spend on Zen/packs.
It's not about whether D&D is "PvP" or not, it's a business decision, pure and simple.
For the record though in my experience I have had some of the best (and worst) fights against my fellow players, but that's just how our group rolled.
PnP D&D is as PvP or PvE as the DM allows it. As the DM for Neverwinter, Cryptic is allowing it, and rightly so. The revenue the PvPers bring to the game will help every aspect of the game, just as the PvE revenue will.
We're all here to enjoy the game, even if it's a different aspect of it.
Let's play nice and help the game be what it can be for a long time coming.
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leissesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I am, at best, thoroughly ambivalent about PvP in MMO's in general. The above is part of the reason why. The other parts are being constantly harrassed by "So-and-so challenges you to a duel to the death" screens *constantly* appearing right when I am doing something. I hurriedly decline, then unbeknownst to the challenger, con them, and sure enough, they invariably con red to me. Fair fight? Indeed...
Yet another aspect was having, *by design* to cross PvP territory to acess PvE, then being attacked by someone who is ten times my level. Again, fair fight? Right! PvP'ers need to realize that attitudes like mine were *not* formed in a vacuum, springing full-fledged, without any cause whatsoever. No, they are the *cumulative* result of days of gaming ruined by PvP'ers, who had supposedly enriched their gaming experience, at the expense of mine...
The mistake would be nerfing classes for PvP at the expense of PvE.
This. Nerfing for the perfect 'balance' so that each character has an a perfectly equal chance to kill the other in PVP leads to a viscious cycle of nerfing and altering of the PVE experience.
If only there were such things as PVE servers where you can't get attacked by griefers. It's a dream of mine that one day, such server types will be made reality and people who take offense when ganked will no longer be forced to suffer such injustice.
I don't mind pvp as an option. I even enjoy it when it is a large scale objective based pvp as with GW2 WvW or WAR's RvR. But the one thing I don't want to see is the PvE being negatively impacted by the pvp especially in terms of balance. I would rather the game had absolutely no pvp before that happens.
So yes, lets have PvP, IF they can do it right, which means not HAMSTER up the PvE because of PvP balance crybabies in the forums.
I don't mind pvp as an option. I even enjoy it when it is a large scale objective based pvp as with GW2 WvW or WAR's RvR. But the one thing I don't want to see is the PvE being negatively impacted by the pvp especially in terms of balance. I would rather the game had absolutely no pvp before that happens.
So yes, lets have PvP, IF they can do it right, which means not HAMSTER up the PvE because of PvP balance crybabies in the forums.
While I'm willing to agree that this should be a PvE focused game, and the D&D nerd inside me wants to focus on PvE content since this is, after all, a D&D game, and while I am not expecting PvP to be balanced, demanding that no change is ever made based on feedback from PvP is rather selfish. PvP has always been affected by PvE in MMOs, even the PvP focused ones, if you think that people who play mostly if not exclusively PvP have no right to complain about that, then to keep it fair you shouldn't complain if the opposite happens. In the end you have the best perspective when you sit on the fence.
i have absolutely zero interest in pvp in this game however i more than understand people like pvp and that's cool, however, every mmo bases so many nerfs for the sake of pvp that it screws up pvp. If they can keep abilities and such changes FOR pvp only on the pvp side then great if they can't then people are gonna be pissed at another game is nerfing based on pvp and crippling pve players..
All they need to do is make any changes to pvp balance not effective when outside of pvp. Its just that most companies don't do this or don't do it very well. So that is why I would say, if it is going to effect pve balance then screw pvp, I would rather not see it in this game at all. there are hundreds of pvp oriented games out their to choose from. Lots of games have endgames that are primarily PvP. This game appears to be choosing the PvE route primarily. But which ever it chooses, it needs to choose what its focus is going to be. Trying to be all things to all players is asking for disaster. Be a PvP game with some PvE or be a PvE game with some PvP. But don't try to be both and fail at everything.
Polls have been launched. PvP is an afterthought, if that, in D&D...
Since 1974 tabletop through today, D&D has been about PvE, adventuring, grouping and questing... this game is following the same paths that has made true D&D the product that has entranced millions of gamers over decades of play.
This is not your standard MMO. This is not your PvP mmo.
How many topics must the same people start to get this point across.
I'm tired of misinformed posts like this. FACT - In D&D there IS PvP. you can attack players whenever you want. In fact my friends and I used to duel each other all the time in 1981 tabletop. FACT #2 - People WANT PvP, and there IS PvP, and it is definitely NOT an afterthought. DEAL WITH IT.
I'm tired of misinformed posts like this. FACT - In D&D there IS PvP. you can attack players whenever you want. In fact my friends and I used to duel each other all the time in 1981 tabletop. FACT #2 - People WANT PvP, and there IS PvP, and it is definitely NOT an afterthought. DEAL WITH IT.
so you going to pick my first post or last post to quote ?
Grow up. Guess what, it is an afterthought... Just because you used to kill your party and have orc's drop + 5 plate mail doesn't mean that's what 99.9 of everyone else did.
The only reason people are slamming pvp is because it tends to attract the dreaded epeen swinging, LEET skillz, nub pwning, nerf screaming pvpers that run rampant in any game with organized, and ranked, pvp.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen "Oh, you haven't even achieved **** rating? STFU nub, get owned." and most would prefer to let those brand of players stay where they are.
Ppl that are no good at pvp, ppl that can only beat computer generated opponents that always follow the same pattern and timers, those are the ones that slam pvp. They are low to no skill players that want games to be easy mode. ALL PVE is EZ mode. You can ALWAYS beat even the "hardest" NPCs in the game in time. Not true of players. PvP separates the men from the women.
Ppl that are no good at pvp, ppl that can only beat computer generated opponents that always follow the same pattern and timers, those are the ones that slam pvp. They are low to no skill players that want games to be easy mode. ALL PVE is EZ mode. You can ALWAYS beat even the "hardest" NPCs in the game in time. Not true of players. PvP separates the men from the women.
Funny part is that you just demonstrated the kind of player my quote was describing. Good job.
so you going to pick my first post or last post to quote ?
Grow up. Guess what, it is an afterthought... Just because you used to kill your party and have orc's drop + 5 plate mail doesn't mean that's what 99.9 of everyone else did.
Please post where Cryptic calls it an afterthought. I'll be waiting. Just cause carebear wants something to be true doesn't mean it is :-)
Comments
I'm not sure if this post was supposed to be sarcastic or not. If it was - well done, if it wasn't - well, it only makes it even more hilarious.
I DON'T WANT TO LIVE ON THIS PLANET ANYMORE!
Cryptic doesn't do PvP balance. They just tack it on and let it fly. CO and STO are both shining examples.
Seriously though, if you're hoping this game is going to have a good PvP scene that isn't wildly unbalanced or super cheeseball... I wouldn't hold my breath.
On the bright side, they rarely screw up the game by nerfing the **** out of classes in PvP and then pissing off all the PvEers, so there is that.
Well, it sure is more entertaining to read if you read it with an angry voice in your mind
Uh huh, pvp killed GW2. Note- almost 30 servers of very high status. Its dead. Beleive it or not, even the carebears like some pvp to break up their grind. The games with low player bases are those who ignore pvp.
Would I be breaking forum rules if I titled it "Ode to Lichlament and friends"?
I don't think this game can handle both and is basically a PVE game. Nothing wrong with that plenty of other games that have plenty of PVP that is done well.
Arena style pvp just doesnt do it for me without copious amounts of alcohol. Maybe it's the lack of epicness that comes with smaller numbers or the volume of drama queens that are addicted to branding people noobs but I just dont really like it anymore.
I used to enjoy them in wow way back in vanilla before blizz made the pvp system into something that rewarded afkers and leechers more than those who were willing to fight. Back then AV battles could last all day and were more just than a pve zerg to the boss. But now they tend to be the cause of pve nerfs thanks to a certain build being considered OP and having shedloads of moaning about it on the forums.
yeah, too many other MMOs do that. I realize it's challenging to keep classes balanced for PvP AND PvE. but if they lose focus on one or the other, it becomes harder and harder to balance classes after the fact.
that was one of the things I really liked about Warhammer Online, for example, the classes and abilities were designed from the ground up to behave a certain way. which worked wonders for PvP.
I am, at best, thoroughly ambivalent about PvP in MMO's in general. The above is part of the reason why. The other parts are being constantly harrassed by "So-and-so challenges you to a duel to the death" screens *constantly* appearing right when I am doing something. I hurriedly decline, then unbeknownst to the challenger, con them, and sure enough, they invariably con red to me. Fair fight? Indeed...
Yet another aspect was having, *by design* to cross PvP territory to acess PvE, then being attacked by someone who is ten times my level. Again, fair fight? Right! PvP'ers need to realize that attitudes like mine were *not* formed in a vacuum, springing full-fledged, without any cause whatsoever. No, they are the *cumulative* result of days of gaming ruined by PvP'ers, who had supposedly enriched their gaming experience, at the expense of mine...
You want PvP, go play some RFO or Planetside 2. You want PvE, try Warframe, or play some Neverwinter. Mixing generally means you get to feel crappy at everything, and many many 'balance' nerfs to everyone for both aspects of the game, till everything you play is stupidly underwhelming.
I'm not saying games can't have both, but games can't do both well. PvP is Neverwinter is fairly lame, and unbalanced. I'm cool with that as long as PvE never changes because of the PvP crowd. And no, i don't really enjoy playing TR nor CW, so I'm not just saying that because I want to win in PvP. I'm saying that cause I jsut don't give a **** about PvP in one of the best PvE games I've had the pleasure of playing.
Artemis Entreri was all about PVP
On a serious note, pvp is fun when done right. And the arcade style combat of this game is very much suited for pvp. I really hope someone will add a 3d dota pvp map, with pc and npc interaction.....
Edit... You can overdo things, adding the word S h i t to the list of blocked words.. Common thats really overdone
PvP is in Neverwinter because without it Cryptic would lose a substantial player demographic and thus, the money that demographic would spend on Zen/packs.
It's not about whether D&D is "PvP" or not, it's a business decision, pure and simple.
For the record though in my experience I have had some of the best (and worst) fights against my fellow players, but that's just how our group rolled.
PnP D&D is as PvP or PvE as the DM allows it. As the DM for Neverwinter, Cryptic is allowing it, and rightly so. The revenue the PvPers bring to the game will help every aspect of the game, just as the PvE revenue will.
We're all here to enjoy the game, even if it's a different aspect of it.
Let's play nice and help the game be what it can be for a long time coming.
You mistake griefers for PvPers.
This. Nerfing for the perfect 'balance' so that each character has an a perfectly equal chance to kill the other in PVP leads to a viscious cycle of nerfing and altering of the PVE experience.
Open Beta is launch. There are no more character wipes.
Here is list of questions/answers called Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ).
http://nw.perfectworld.com/about/faq
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?18401-Neverwinter-Extended-FAQ
If not sure if a thread is posted, try the SEARCH function below:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/search.php
So yes, lets have PvP, IF they can do it right, which means not HAMSTER up the PvE because of PvP balance crybabies in the forums.
All die, so die well.
While I'm willing to agree that this should be a PvE focused game, and the D&D nerd inside me wants to focus on PvE content since this is, after all, a D&D game, and while I am not expecting PvP to be balanced, demanding that no change is ever made based on feedback from PvP is rather selfish. PvP has always been affected by PvE in MMOs, even the PvP focused ones, if you think that people who play mostly if not exclusively PvP have no right to complain about that, then to keep it fair you shouldn't complain if the opposite happens. In the end you have the best perspective when you sit on the fence.
How does one tell the difference?
All die, so die well.
What kind exactly?
A intelligent, mavericky renegade?
A rich but with a heart of gold Cowboy?
A Elitist, gearscore loving, PvE playing Carebear?
A L33t Speaking, Arena rating loving, PVP playing Ganker?
I'm tired of misinformed posts like this. FACT - In D&D there IS PvP. you can attack players whenever you want. In fact my friends and I used to duel each other all the time in 1981 tabletop. FACT #2 - People WANT PvP, and there IS PvP, and it is definitely NOT an afterthought. DEAL WITH IT.
so you going to pick my first post or last post to quote ?
Grow up. Guess what, it is an afterthought... Just because you used to kill your party and have orc's drop + 5 plate mail doesn't mean that's what 99.9 of everyone else did.
Ppl that are no good at pvp, ppl that can only beat computer generated opponents that always follow the same pattern and timers, those are the ones that slam pvp. They are low to no skill players that want games to be easy mode. ALL PVE is EZ mode. You can ALWAYS beat even the "hardest" NPCs in the game in time. Not true of players. PvP separates the men from the women.
Funny part is that you just demonstrated the kind of player my quote was describing. Good job.
So be it. Low skill carebear commentary has never bothered me. :-)
Please post where Cryptic calls it an afterthought. I'll be waiting. Just cause carebear wants something to be true doesn't mean it is :-)