Here are some quotes from the AMA with lead combat designer Kevin Stoker found here.
jaspor
I did a bit of PvP over the weekend, and it was a lot of fun, though at times it did seem like certain classes were dominating. How are you handling class balance in PvP? Would you consider having a single ability perform differently between PvE and PvP?
cryptic_crucial
We have played a ton of PVP internally. Basically, the flavor of the week changes a lot even in house. Initially a lot of people say "the Wizard is OP! He can CC me for so long!" But this is only until the Rogue or GWF start doing their job and going to disrupt him. I feel we're in a great spot right now where everyone has an important job to do in PVP combat.
nepumuk
Is combat based around the trinity roles of tank, control/damage and healing? And is every role supposed to be equally important?
In beta weekends 2 and 3, even the non self-healing of a Devoted Cleric around level 16-36, felt very weak compared to potions. Therefore I am wondering if it might be intended that heals in general are supposed to only play a minor role in combat?
cryptic_crucial
The trinity plays a different role in Neverwinter. This is something that has changed a lot over development, and in the end it just wasn't as fun to have a 'dedicated healer.' Being a game based around action combat, having a class that focuses entirely on healing or entirely on aggro management wasn't as fun. The Guardian Fighter still controls the battle and takes a bunch of damage for his team, it is just done in a different way than in more traditional MMOs.
acnoj
Does that mean you can complete the high end content without a tank or without a healer? XD
cryptic_crucial
That sounds pretty difficult. Our in house playtests of the end game content are always with 1 of each class. There is a pretty big void when you double up, but it is conceivable that someone finds a strategy that doesn't include a tank or healer.
Magai
Will there be anything to prevent stun-locking by rogues and wizards in PvP, like PvP related feats or click trinkets?
cryptic_crucial
The Wizard's control powers are greatly diminished in PVP, but just as useful. As any PVPer would understand
Though, any class can dodge attacks with roll even in PVP, which will negate the control effect.
reeight
So far, I think NwO has some of the best combat of the many MMOs I've played; just enough choices with still having rich strategy. Thanks!
Targeting is a bit tricky in crowded fights; any thoughts on how to improve that please? I like it once you lock on, it stays locked when the target moves (helpful in boss fights). But sometimes I see just a bunch of stuff, & don't know where & who to aim. Confusing playing PvP against 3 dwarfs & 2 humans, & you can't find the dwarven cleric to CC...
cryptic_crucial
I'm glad you're enjoying it!
We are always working on improving the 'chaotic' feeling in some of our bigger fights and PVP.
It is actually pretty important that the group itself controls the chaos of combat. If you're being overrun, it should feel like you're being overrun. The Wizard should be saving his Daily for a situation like this. It is pretty important to take care of threats within encounters before they get too chaotic.
In PVP it's a totally viable tactic to hide behind the Guardian Fighter, making yourself difficult to target
Cryptic_LordAzrael
Not the most convenient thing to do, but if you hold left CTRL you will keep your camera centered on your target.
AkhlisRO
I would like to ask how the PVP/Combat will be influenced in late game. PVP is very important for me as a hardcore player and yes... PVP is very important for me. Any PVP future plans? Hope you guys can keep the game balanced and fun as it is now ♥
cryptic_crucial
You can earn PVP specific gear all the way through the end game. The higher end stuff all has set bonuses and stats that are specially tailored to PVP.
I'm a pretty hard core PVPer as well and this is a part of the game that I hold close to my heart
After going through this I don't think I even need to go further. PvP will be a part of this game and some of the devs are hardcore PvPers. That don't mean PvE is going to come second, they obviously have devoted the majority of the game and time to it. The fact that there are about 15-20 end game PvE dungeons compared to about 3 PvP maps should stop all the whining about "oh noes not MY DnD" that is going on...
Grow up people that are trolling, and open your minds!
I remember many times having mock battles with friends playing PnP while waiting for the DM to get ready or during a break. Saying "hey man, I bet my barbarian would kick your wizard's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.. lets find out shall we?" Or as Argantis said, the DM is a D&D player and the campaign members sitting around the table are players, therefor all of D&D is player vs player. PvE is player vs environment. The DM isn't an artificial intelligence like a programming environment in pve content. D&D, at it's core, is player vs player.
I am not a hardcore PvPer. I usually prefer PvE. But I do enjoy PvP. And to say that PvP isn't D&D, or to try to eliminate it from the game just seems silly to me. I have also seen first hand how PvP nerfs can adversely effect PvE, but be advised that a larger community can only help the game.
That being said though, this game is not centered on PvP like Aion or many others. If you are looking for a game designed and developed around PvP, you may want to look elsewhere.
Because this is Dungeons and Dragons, being built from Tabletop Dungeons and Dragons "Almost" point for point. This is not a Online MMO such as Everquest and World of Warcraft....
This is also not the table in your living room. . The mechanics are hugely different from the tabletop system. Playing Neverwinter, the MMORPG, is nothing like a PnP session. It IS like playing Diablo, WoW or Terra, where many of the mechanics and gameplay elements are taken from.
See, things change. Back in the 80s and 90s, we had arguments that DnD is not suitable for video games, that it would never work. This turned out to be false since some of the best CRPGs were based on DnD. Then later we had arguments that DnD could never work with real-time combat in video games, that DnD just does not translate to that format. That also turned out to be false. Then we had arguments that DnD could never be used for a MMO, that it is just not designed for that. This has now turned out to be false twice already.
And PvP is just the same thing. The game already has PvP and it worked and was fun in the beta. It is already here, and it is here to stay. Refinig it is just the next step. It does not and will not need to become an e-sport (and I see no one suggesting that). A few more modes, perhaps a rating system for better matchmaking, and that is all it needs. PvP is not going anywhere, so I don't get why we are discussing this as it was a future possibilities. It is already in the game and it works.
I have been playing D&D from the box sets the computer games and the ddonline fiasco and I am here to tell you PVP is not D&D this Is an MMO based in and centered around dungeons and dragons it is a group game with a basses in story and character development. The only way I see PVP even being in this is in an area setting like gladiator style and only by choice my advice if you want PVP go somewhere else you're not going to like it here. We dungeons and dragon players are many and been here for a while for a good quality game for D&D. If this is the one we will not let you ruin it with your whining and wow baby attitudes so lets get this straight from the start (see below)
Very much agree. D&D is NOT PvP. The DM is exactly that, the Dungeon Master and then there are the actual players. If you play PnP D&D as a PvP game instead of a cooperative story telling experience, you truly are doing it wrong and there are other games that would much better cater to your tastes. (And I hate saying there is one way to play.)
I think most players are fine with a PvE focus and a PvP side game. I also agree from my beta experiences that is exactly what it is. I am not even sure that the PvP in this game is as prevalent as WoW, but I don't think it will ever surpass that. I feel confident in expressing my opinion on this matter, that both can coexist and keep a majority of players happy. I also agree that this game will never get the PvP focus of DaoC or GW. The end game is very much PvE but for those that enjoy PvP it is there, and right now the game balance is not suffering. If anything the PvP struggles because of the PvE balance, not the other way around.
But to say that it is not DnD, or that people who played that way played DnD wrong is just not so. DnD is whatever it was to whoever played it. So long as everyone enjoyed it there was no right or wrong way to play. Only ones opinion on the matter. We can carry that directly over to NWO.
Normally I say concerns valid, proof coming for most pre-launch game issues in the forums. But for this one I have to say....
I don't have history with D&D but have some great friends that played growing up so I'm excited to join them in the game they've been waiting for for years. I love that there is rich lore and fans that are really into it. It gives the world personality and brings it to life. With that said if people love D&D you should want to share it and welcome new people into the fantasy world you've been familiar with for years. So please be willing to accept non D&D people into the game and help them learn to love it like you do.
I love pvp in games just like I love playing hoops, golf, or anything where I get to compete against other people. What better way to test that awesome new sword you got in the last dungeon run than against your friends in pvp? It's awesome! It's even more incentive to check every corner of the game world and make that awesome find that will give me a leg up in pvp. So I'd play this game if it didn't have pvp but for me it's much much better with it.
Anyways, I can't wait to see you all in game tomorrow! In the meantime I'm trying to get immersed in as much of the lore as possible. Salvatore here I come!
And lo, when the Blade of Luskan ascended the ravaged steps of the Ivory Tower to challenge the priests of Kelemvor, he was halted and cast down by the guardians of the Death-god's host. As he succumbed to his wounds, he proclaimed, with his dying breath, "lol it ttook 4 of u 2 kill me git good scrub gg no re". Thus saythe the annuls of Neverwinter.
Personally I know that PvP is not what is drawing me to Neverwinter. I wont even participate just in case they are tracking to see how many do.
I've done the PVP thing to the point that no matter what game im playing it just seems like the same game in a different skin. You keep working towards that awesome gear set, get close to having it and BAM an update comes out and all your stuff is trash again.
I'm hoping that Neverwinter will be different, but I am afraid that I am like the Flying Dutchman, every ship I get on does the same thing, sinks to the depths of pvp.
There are so many different settings, monsters, and NPC's with great histories that this game can draw upon it should not even need PvP to bring folks to the game. Some PvP is fine for those that like it, but it shouldn't effect the PVE environment at all. If one class rules pvp ban that class from pvp dont ruin it.
One of the really cool PvP things I did was play a monster race in LotRO. It was really done well but that player community, at least on my server, did not really have enough PvP players to make it what it could have been. It was almost like a PvE leveling system where you started out low and completed PvP objectives and missions to level up. You even had a PvP experience bar. I would love to see something like this come into Neverwinter.
Part of why it was not successful in LotRO was because they cash gated all of the monster races. Everyone could be an Orc, but if you wanted to be a Dire Wolf, or Spider, or Caster Orc you had to pay cash. Not that cash gating it was a horrible thing, but they should have done it in a more gentle way. In Neverwinter the easiest way would be to just have the 500 zen for 2 monster character slots. This could be some pretty ground breaking and amazing stuff depending on how it was handled. Could you imagine doign a dungeon crawl where the monsters you face are actually other players? There is no need for gear and such, each monster progresses to be what they are supposed to be in the Monster Manual. But how fun would it be to actually play that Elder Beholder sitting in that cave? How about actually playing that Mind Flayer or Phase Spider? Maybe playing a Lich or Vampire? How about playing a Dragon! Everyone wants to play an epic Dragon! Think about it, you versus 5, go!
Implemented in the proper way this could even carry over into the foundry and PvE. The only difference is in these maps you would be fighting player monsters not AI. This would be a huge step in MMO evolution that LotRO touched on but never really hit out of the park. It is also the sort of PvP that could seriously enhance the game and flavor of DnD in Neverwinter Online.
I've done the PVP thing to the point that no matter what game im playing it just seems like the same game in a different skin. You keep working towards that awesome gear set, get close to having it and BAM an update comes out and all your stuff is trash
If this happens to your PvP gear in an MMO, it happens to your PvE gear as well. In WoW, every time they released an expansion, my gear that I had "worked" for became useless. It even happened between expansions when new raids were released. Chasing the carrot is a fundamental design element in MMOs. You never "finish" the game.
What you always keep are the memories of the great times with friends, the battles won, the quests done, the storylines experienced. It is the same in PvP, where you recall funny moments, close matches, unlikely victories, etc. And your skill increases as you gain more experience, same as in PvE. Gear is just one aspect, regardless of the playstyle you prefer.
I guess I just like choice. Hopping on the game and doing whatever I feel like, be it a couple PvP matches, solo questing, AH playing, a dungeon romp, some crafting, etc. PvP is something I try to do in small doses, and I am more interested in PvE in Neverwinter, but I think it is awesome that the devs have added it and will continue to support it. It will make the game an even bigger success, and the existence of PvP is part of the reason why I support the game financially.
D&D was never meant to be about pvp, it should always be a after thought. If they try to make a game meant for pve and make the pvp equal, they will see a mess on their hands and result in core players leaving.
So please be willing to accept non D&D people into the game and help them learn to love it like you do.
I don't think anyone is trying to exclude non D&D people, but these newcomers should understand and respect what D&D is and not try to warp this game into something it wouldn't be good at.
One of the really cool PvP things I did was play a monster race in LotRO. It was really done well but that player community, at least on my server, did not really have enough PvP players to make it what it could have been. It was almost like a PvE leveling system where you started out low and completed PvP objectives and missions to level up. You even had a PvP experience bar. I would love to see something like this come into Neverwinter.
Part of why it was not successful in LotRO was because they cash gated all of the monster races. Everyone could be an Orc, but if you wanted to be a Dire Wolf, or Spider, or Caster Orc you had to pay cash. Not that cash gating it was a horrible thing, but they should have done it in a more gentle way. In Neverwinter the easiest way would be to just have the 500 zen for 2 monster character slots. This could be some pretty ground breaking and amazing stuff depending on how it was handled. Could you imagine doign a dungeon crawl where the monsters you face are actually other players? There is no need for gear and such, each monster progresses to be what they are supposed to be in the Monster Manual. But how fun would it be to actually play that Elder Beholder sitting in that cave? How about actually playing that Mind Flayer or Phase Spider? Maybe playing a Lich or Vampire? How about playing a Dragon! Everyone wants to play an epic Dragon! Think about it, you versus 5, go!
Implemented in the proper way this could even carry over into the foundry and PvE. The only difference is in these maps you would be fighting player monsters not AI. This would be a huge step in MMO evolution that LotRO touched on but never really hit out of the park. It is also the sort of PvP that could seriously enhance the game and flavor of DnD in Neverwinter Online.
Now that is PVP that I would participate in, something new and clever. A PvP model that opens another entire realm of playing different tiers of monsters and monster lore. Sounds fun!
Unfortunately I didn't play CO but I hope Cryptic get some tips about PvP with PWE which have good PvP systems in my opinion. Although I want them to improve it and not only copy and from what I saw until now I think they can do it great.
Chasing the carrot is a fundamental design element in MMOs. You never "finish" the game.
So true. This is why I personally choose to dabble in a little of everything. By far I PvE more, but there are times when I will get bored of it and go PvP. The least important thing to me in an MMO is gear. The only reason it is important at all is as a gear check to be able to do or see something new.
To me it all depends on the time sink. At some point, in most MMO games, the PvE progression gets to the point where all you have to do is log in and "raid" or in this game dungeon delve, for whatever your guild has scheduled. The nice part for me in PvP is that it was always something I could jump into during down time when my guild was not raiding. I could pursue titles, mounts, gear, whatever there on my own with the public queue systems. It also was a fun way to play an alt character, because usually a good solo build will translate to a good PvP build. So if I wanted to have a craft person alt or something and they needed gear to help them go gather better or whatnot, it was always easier to PvP than to go grind the dungeons. That is one plus of PvP, is as the "seasons" go on the lower tier armor gets really cheap and fast to grind out. So my alts can go around in style and I get a chance to play a different class and advance them to a decent amount in gear without the long raid style of grind.
The other nice thing I like about PvP as a diversion is that it is always different. The scenery never changes but the encounters surly do. It is also much more of a challenge and a reward to defeat something with a brain that actually thinks rather than some iteration of 0's and 1's on a script. So for me, early on in a game or expansion I am almost all out PvE, but as time goes on I become more and more involved with PvP and eventually I probably spend far more time in it until the next expansion comes out.
I also am not putting as much faith into the Foundry until I really see what it can do. Unless we can have player designed dungeon gear sets (which I do not even want to open that Pandora's box) or find the existing ones in the Foundry missions, the best rewards will always be on the developer content. Much like PvP, the Foundry is just another diversion for me. A fun one sure, but I am not sure that it can really hold end game up in the current version. I can't wait to get in and test all of this stuff out!
Back in Champions Online, there were a ton of people that were interested in pvp and it literally took years to get updates to those facets of the game.
Please, let's not repeat the same mistake - a lot of people are interested in pvp in this game as well, please try your best.
Thank you
Fine as long as PvE doesn't suffer. What I mean is usually some class or class mechanic becomes extremely overpowered and the Devs bring out the nerf bat which unintentionally destroys certain PvE aspects of that class.
This I am not in favor of in the least. If you need to balance PvP do it only for PvP, leave my PvE alone!!!!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
Fine as long as PvE doesn't suffer. What I mean is usually some class or class mechanic becomes extremely overpowered and the Devs bring out the nerf bat which unintentionally destroys certain PvE aspects of that class.
This I am not in favor of in the least. If you need to balance PvP do it only for PvP, leave my PvE alone!!!!
Now that is a view point I can respect. Nice job Zylaxx of putting the concern out there in a meaningful, yet mindful way.
You know, the most common thing I see in these PvP threads from the people posting in favor of PvP is this...
I never played Dungeons and Dragons.
...You see, that is the problem right there.
Noone is saying we are not welcoming you players into the fold. Actually, the contrary is true. We are glad to have you along. Us long in the tooth D&D'ers love opening this world to more and more players.
But these players need to come in with an open mind, and understand Dungeons and Dragons is not your cookie cutter MMO your so used to playing and PvP'ing in.
That has never been the mentality of Gary Gygax, TSR, WoTC, et al...
Dungeons and Dragons was not built off a party getting together then killing each other. Dungeons and Dragons was and is being built off of a world of fantasy, imagination, creativity, working together, camaraderie, companionship, puzzle solving, and creative thinking.
It never was hack and slash.
Worlds have been built inside the minds of children just grabbing that dice for the first time, that teenager who gets together with his friends for a weekend foray into the Mists of Ravenloft, and those men who get together for a nightly trip into the maze of controversy in the City of Sigil...
Us PvE'ers of the world we helped build with decades of loyalty are willing to bring you all in and experience the mysicism that we have grown so fondly into over the years...
But you PvP'ers have to come in with a open mind and not be so god **** stubborn thinking you can just have everything your way and **** all who oppose you or TRY to inform you that's not how things work in Faerun, Oerth, or Ravenloft...
You call people trolls when they disagree with you, telling you 40 years of D&D never EVER has been PvP...
You get mad and defensive if you cant have it your way.
Us DnD'ers over the years have had plenty of things not go our way, and we adapted... Did we show up at a ComicCon with a AR 15 and demand Vorpal Swords drop off Kobolds ?
You want PvP...fine we get it...
But this is Dungeons and Dragons.... and the world has not even been built yet.... things come in time... Noone is saying you cannot or will not have your PvP...
But Dungeons and Dragons is not your PvP game... This is what we have been trying to tell you... The game is being " Bent " to allow your PvP... and when the time comes when classes have been introduced and the world has been revealed.... you will find your PvP MUCH, MUCH more endearing...
I HIGHLY doubt this game will go away any time soon.... this is Faerun... and Faerun is older than some of you...
Some of us have been waiting DECADES to actually visually step foot into this world of magic and lore and try to leave our mark..
You want your PvP... fine.. but we want our world of imagination as well....
Thats about as simple and decent as I can put it..
We are waiting for our world and being patient....
Take a breath, relax, have a coke... Good things come to those who wait.
Don't worry folks, PvP is not an afterthought. Lich is just expressing his views, nothing official.
First of all the polls that were put up are a small demographic. I am sure that PvP is in the game because Cryptic knows there is value in it, otherwise why would it be there? Secondly, all you have to do is log into the most popular western MMO to date and look at the population of RP servers to PvP servers to know who the bigger demographic is. Thirdly, it don't matter what YOU think PnP DnD is, at its heart it has ALWAYS been PvP. DM's versus the party, plain and simple. It was always about them matching wits against each other in a good natured, fun, and fair way. Lastly, the devs love PvP and talk about how much they test it and enjoy it in Neverwinter.
Oh BTW, they have also talked about doing PvP maps in the foundry, it is in the plans for the future.
Just because YOU, yes you, Lich. Just because you THINK anything does not make it so. Thank god that the developer is not so narrow minded. There is plenty of room in Neverwinter for all. PvE, PvP, RP, Raiding, whatever. I agree that the main focus of the game should be on PvE and that it is the largest demographic, however to completely discount PvP would be silly. I really never understood why people attack the PvP community, it is voluntary, if you don't like it then just don't participate in it. Cryptic will have statistics on how many hours are spent in PvP versus PvE and I am sure they will put the development dollars where it makes the most sense. This is not YOUR game, this is OUR game. Show a little respect for something bigger than your own selfish desires.
You know, the most common thing I see in these PvP threads from the people posting in favor of PvP is this... I never played Dungeons and Dragons.
That would be an assumption that is, I'm sure, incorrect in many cases. DnD has changed so dramatically over the years that it's even hard to talk of DnD as if it was one system. You have a very narrow, close-minded view, and while I respect that, it isn't the only valid take on the issue. Putting down people who disagree with you is not making your argument stronger. You cannot bully people into agreement.
I feel that you, for some reason, try very hard to polarize. Speaking for the "we", when really, you only speak for yourself and a handful of like-minded people (I want to say "zealots", but really, this isn't a mudslinging contest and there's nothing to gain from one). Referring to everyone else as "them", the enemy, those who have a different view, throwing them all in one box. Moderate views are possible, embracing both sides is do-able, and showing tolerance is not shameful, you know. There are more colors than black and white, and there is more middle ground than there are borders.
You see something in Neverwinter that I don't see. You seem convinced that it is different from other MMOs and Action RPGs, which in my view it simply isn't. It uses the same mechanics and design elements found in other MMOs and CRPGs, past and present, and the one thing that really, on a fundamental level, distinguishes it from other MMOs with a fantasy setting is the Foundry. The combat is also noticeably better, but it's a combination of Diablo and Tera, at the core. But most everything else? Same mechanics, same designs, same quest styles (fetch this, kill that, go there, come back). If you have played any number of ARPGs or MMORPGs, this is plainly obvious.
So, I feel you glorify the game and see it as something that it isn't, and thus defend it as if it was your newborn and someone else tried to steal it from you. It is a great game, and I plan to play it for absurd amounts of time and keep putting money into it, but it is almost certain to disappoint you if you expect it to be this unique experience that trumps everything else and somehow gives you this completely free "make it your own" kind of world you can shape. You can't. It's a traditional MMO with instanced areas, it's an action-RPG, it's a fast-paced dungeon crawler.
What you want is something like Ultima Online in 1997, with player housing, player-run cities, player-run events, no game-provided quests, not even levels or artificial goals beyond those you set for yourself. I loved UO, for these reasons, and I miss it dearly and know that it won't ever return because times have moved on. It was more than a game. Neverwinter, however, is "just" a game. An excellent game, an innovative game (Foundry), but it's not your childhood dreams of a DnD Narnia coming true. If you expect this of it, I feel you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
PvP is a basic component that every modern MMORPG features. For good reason: It's popular, it is cheap (provides a lot of content without needing much resources and constantly new artwork), it's diverse, it's always fresh. As mentioned by Argantis, there is a reason why most of the high progression, high pop servers in WoW are PvP ones. In fact, PvP servers usually have the best PvE progression, too.
Neverwinter needs this, too, because bluntly put, a small group of purist DnD fans who look down at anyone else who doesn't treat a RPG framework like a religion is not enough to make a MMO of this size and of this scope financially viable. WotC know this, too, which is why they approved PvP for this game. And WotC is DnD, unlike you. They apparently think PvP does belong into a DnD game, and here we are: PvP in Neverwinter.
I really don't understand the strong feelings against PvP or people who frequently or occasionally enjoy battling other players and seeing where they stand, skill-wise. PvP is a fantastic way to make you a better, more skilled player. There is also nothing that somehow makes PvP the opposite of RP. In UO, back in 1997, I had a purely roleplayed character, and bounty hunting was part of her background. RP and PvP go perfectly well together, as do PvE and PvP. They are not mutually exclusive in any way.
So, just live and let live. PvP is in the game, it doesn't go anywhere, and both playstyles can co-exist. Most people will not just do one thing anyway. My focus is on PvE, but I will also do PvP when I feel like it. I'm sure this applies to plenty of folks.
If Neverwinter ever become a mainstream PvP grindfest, i am out. DnD has always been about unique PVE experiences, exploring, having fun with your group exploring. I would not mind if there wasn't any pvp involved as it tends to ruin classes. Don't get me wrong, i do like pvping sometimes.
Anyway i hope Neverwinter stays true to the DnD world and not mess everything up in order to please pvp lovers. This is not and never has been a pvp game.
I love PvP and I love D&D, I would like to see it in the game, but I am afraid that too many rules would have to be compromised in order to make it work. Plus, after the days of pre 99' UO, every game company that has produced a pvp orientated game has managed to screw it up so bad that its utterly worthless. Anyone that has played UO before 99' knows what Im talking about.
I love PvP and I love D&D, I would like to see it in the game, but I am afraid that too many rules would have to be compromised in order to make it work. Plus, after the days of pre 99' UO, every game company that has produced a pvp orientated game has managed to screw it up so bad that its utterly worthless. Anyone that has played UO before 99' knows what Im talking about.
Its OK people! PvP will be in Neverwinter. I, while not a huge pvp'er anymore, do enjoy the odd game here and there for a bit of fun playing others and away from AI. I think the one thing most people need to understand about pvp is that it will never be balanced, and to think it can honestly be balanced in a class based game is silly, nor do I think it should. 'A star team will always beat a team of stars!' Dnd PvP should be balanced around teamplay and not individual classes. So far, from what I have seen so good. Although I am suspicious of the 'Righteousness' debuff to clerics, but anyways no biggy. So lets hope people realise teamwork will make your class work in pvp far better then going it alone imo anyway
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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feethMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
PvP quests would be nice.
Like, one group has stolen something and the other must collect it. There's pve elements in there for both then you end up encountering at certain points. Depending how the fight goes, the story advances for that team and it changes for the other.
That'd be a nice change and still be quite pnp handy. The amount of times you encounter enemy parties or whatever in them tends to be really exciting.
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dcoy1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
PvP. It is the killer of mmos. Look at all the mmos that have failed just because they added pvp. WoW, Rift, SWtor, WAR, Aion, GW1, GW2, Tera… the list goes on; all dead or ruined due to pvp.
And those pvpers. They are a scourge of the mmo player base. Horrible people.
In pve I have never had little Elins decked out in +12 VM gear jumping up and down in end-game dungeons demanding that I be kicked, spamming "kick, kick, kick" because I didn't have glowing gear; I have never had kills or nodes stolen, never had people maliciously following me around just to prevent me from levelling by stealing kills, never had people spamming obscenities in chat.
Nope. The pve crowd are so pure and upstanding. You will never see them trolling constructive posts about how to enhance the already great pvp in this game. They never stoop to insulting, brow-bashing, or demeaning others, or telling them to just "go play another game".
And really, the nerve of these pvpers! Trying to come to our game, our game, our game and pollute it with their dangerous and unconventional ideas. I mean this game is based on D&D. D&D! A game where there is absolutely no sense that the DM is competing against the players (such as in a game like Descent) and never has a campaign involved any fighting between players.
These pvpers just don't get it. D&D is solely a pve experience and no person that was ever involved in D&D could possibly stoop to have anything to do with pvp. That is why WotC NEVER made pvp skirmish games like D&D minis or D&D Dungeon Command, or had pvp scenarios in their D&D adventure board game series. They knew that people who love D&D would never want to have anything to do with pvp.
So fear pvp; keep your ears and eyes shut to the corrupting presence of pvpers; shun them and keep true to the fold- to the purity of D&D which can be wholly found in a pve mmo experience.
I'm telling you- give them an inch and they will take a mile; before you know it our whole game will be ruined. A single positive post about pvp threatens our very existence!
Aion sucks NOW;
before it was good when the factions were balanced.
Nah, Aion always sucked. Hell, it even sucked when it was just an idea inside someone's head, except instead of someone telling "Dude, your idea sucks", he said "Yeah, let's do it" and the suck became reality.
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leissesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
argantis thank you for the great posts on this topic. I am with you at most of your appointments.
OK! So send me my $60.00 back so I can go away #not
EDIT: I re-read the yasha post and I really believe he was just trolling PvP Haters. But the thing is already in a level it really sounded like the haters posts.
Comments
After going through this I don't think I even need to go further. PvP will be a part of this game and some of the devs are hardcore PvPers. That don't mean PvE is going to come second, they obviously have devoted the majority of the game and time to it. The fact that there are about 15-20 end game PvE dungeons compared to about 3 PvP maps should stop all the whining about "oh noes not MY DnD" that is going on...
Grow up people that are trolling, and open your minds!
I am not a hardcore PvPer. I usually prefer PvE. But I do enjoy PvP. And to say that PvP isn't D&D, or to try to eliminate it from the game just seems silly to me. I have also seen first hand how PvP nerfs can adversely effect PvE, but be advised that a larger community can only help the game.
That being said though, this game is not centered on PvP like Aion or many others. If you are looking for a game designed and developed around PvP, you may want to look elsewhere.
This is also not the table in your living room.
See, things change. Back in the 80s and 90s, we had arguments that DnD is not suitable for video games, that it would never work. This turned out to be false since some of the best CRPGs were based on DnD. Then later we had arguments that DnD could never work with real-time combat in video games, that DnD just does not translate to that format. That also turned out to be false. Then we had arguments that DnD could never be used for a MMO, that it is just not designed for that. This has now turned out to be false twice already.
And PvP is just the same thing. The game already has PvP and it worked and was fun in the beta. It is already here, and it is here to stay. Refinig it is just the next step. It does not and will not need to become an e-sport (and I see no one suggesting that). A few more modes, perhaps a rating system for better matchmaking, and that is all it needs. PvP is not going anywhere, so I don't get why we are discussing this as it was a future possibilities. It is already in the game and it works.
Very much agree. D&D is NOT PvP. The DM is exactly that, the Dungeon Master and then there are the actual players. If you play PnP D&D as a PvP game instead of a cooperative story telling experience, you truly are doing it wrong and there are other games that would much better cater to your tastes. (And I hate saying there is one way to play.)
But to say that it is not DnD, or that people who played that way played DnD wrong is just not so. DnD is whatever it was to whoever played it. So long as everyone enjoyed it there was no right or wrong way to play. Only ones opinion on the matter. We can carry that directly over to NWO.
Normally I say concerns valid, proof coming for most pre-launch game issues in the forums. But for this one I have to say....
Opinions vary, game can too.
I don't have history with D&D but have some great friends that played growing up so I'm excited to join them in the game they've been waiting for for years. I love that there is rich lore and fans that are really into it. It gives the world personality and brings it to life. With that said if people love D&D you should want to share it and welcome new people into the fantasy world you've been familiar with for years. So please be willing to accept non D&D people into the game and help them learn to love it like you do.
I love pvp in games just like I love playing hoops, golf, or anything where I get to compete against other people. What better way to test that awesome new sword you got in the last dungeon run than against your friends in pvp? It's awesome! It's even more incentive to check every corner of the game world and make that awesome find that will give me a leg up in pvp. So I'd play this game if it didn't have pvp but for me it's much much better with it.
Anyways, I can't wait to see you all in game tomorrow! In the meantime I'm trying to get immersed in as much of the lore as possible. Salvatore here I come!
Night all!
I've done the PVP thing to the point that no matter what game im playing it just seems like the same game in a different skin. You keep working towards that awesome gear set, get close to having it and BAM an update comes out and all your stuff is trash again.
I'm hoping that Neverwinter will be different, but I am afraid that I am like the Flying Dutchman, every ship I get on does the same thing, sinks to the depths of pvp.
There are so many different settings, monsters, and NPC's with great histories that this game can draw upon it should not even need PvP to bring folks to the game. Some PvP is fine for those that like it, but it shouldn't effect the PVE environment at all. If one class rules pvp ban that class from pvp dont ruin it.
Part of why it was not successful in LotRO was because they cash gated all of the monster races. Everyone could be an Orc, but if you wanted to be a Dire Wolf, or Spider, or Caster Orc you had to pay cash. Not that cash gating it was a horrible thing, but they should have done it in a more gentle way. In Neverwinter the easiest way would be to just have the 500 zen for 2 monster character slots. This could be some pretty ground breaking and amazing stuff depending on how it was handled. Could you imagine doign a dungeon crawl where the monsters you face are actually other players? There is no need for gear and such, each monster progresses to be what they are supposed to be in the Monster Manual. But how fun would it be to actually play that Elder Beholder sitting in that cave? How about actually playing that Mind Flayer or Phase Spider? Maybe playing a Lich or Vampire? How about playing a Dragon! Everyone wants to play an epic Dragon! Think about it, you versus 5, go!
Implemented in the proper way this could even carry over into the foundry and PvE. The only difference is in these maps you would be fighting player monsters not AI. This would be a huge step in MMO evolution that LotRO touched on but never really hit out of the park. It is also the sort of PvP that could seriously enhance the game and flavor of DnD in Neverwinter Online.
If this happens to your PvP gear in an MMO, it happens to your PvE gear as well. In WoW, every time they released an expansion, my gear that I had "worked" for became useless. It even happened between expansions when new raids were released. Chasing the carrot is a fundamental design element in MMOs. You never "finish" the game.
What you always keep are the memories of the great times with friends, the battles won, the quests done, the storylines experienced. It is the same in PvP, where you recall funny moments, close matches, unlikely victories, etc. And your skill increases as you gain more experience, same as in PvE. Gear is just one aspect, regardless of the playstyle you prefer.
I guess I just like choice. Hopping on the game and doing whatever I feel like, be it a couple PvP matches, solo questing, AH playing, a dungeon romp, some crafting, etc. PvP is something I try to do in small doses, and I am more interested in PvE in Neverwinter, but I think it is awesome that the devs have added it and will continue to support it. It will make the game an even bigger success, and the existence of PvP is part of the reason why I support the game financially.
I don't think anyone is trying to exclude non D&D people, but these newcomers should understand and respect what D&D is and not try to warp this game into something it wouldn't be good at.
Great author, you should check out the Brimstone Angels series if you haven't already. Erin Evans does a fantastic job and it's set in Neverwinter.
Now that is PVP that I would participate in, something new and clever. A PvP model that opens another entire realm of playing different tiers of monsters and monster lore. Sounds fun!
This game is not your games.
So true. This is why I personally choose to dabble in a little of everything. By far I PvE more, but there are times when I will get bored of it and go PvP. The least important thing to me in an MMO is gear. The only reason it is important at all is as a gear check to be able to do or see something new.
To me it all depends on the time sink. At some point, in most MMO games, the PvE progression gets to the point where all you have to do is log in and "raid" or in this game dungeon delve, for whatever your guild has scheduled. The nice part for me in PvP is that it was always something I could jump into during down time when my guild was not raiding. I could pursue titles, mounts, gear, whatever there on my own with the public queue systems. It also was a fun way to play an alt character, because usually a good solo build will translate to a good PvP build. So if I wanted to have a craft person alt or something and they needed gear to help them go gather better or whatnot, it was always easier to PvP than to go grind the dungeons. That is one plus of PvP, is as the "seasons" go on the lower tier armor gets really cheap and fast to grind out. So my alts can go around in style and I get a chance to play a different class and advance them to a decent amount in gear without the long raid style of grind.
The other nice thing I like about PvP as a diversion is that it is always different. The scenery never changes but the encounters surly do. It is also much more of a challenge and a reward to defeat something with a brain that actually thinks rather than some iteration of 0's and 1's on a script. So for me, early on in a game or expansion I am almost all out PvE, but as time goes on I become more and more involved with PvP and eventually I probably spend far more time in it until the next expansion comes out.
I also am not putting as much faith into the Foundry until I really see what it can do. Unless we can have player designed dungeon gear sets (which I do not even want to open that Pandora's box) or find the existing ones in the Foundry missions, the best rewards will always be on the developer content. Much like PvP, the Foundry is just another diversion for me. A fun one sure, but I am not sure that it can really hold end game up in the current version. I can't wait to get in and test all of this stuff out!
Fine as long as PvE doesn't suffer. What I mean is usually some class or class mechanic becomes extremely overpowered and the Devs bring out the nerf bat which unintentionally destroys certain PvE aspects of that class.
This I am not in favor of in the least. If you need to balance PvP do it only for PvP, leave my PvE alone!!!!
Character is what a man is in the dark
Now that is a view point I can respect. Nice job Zylaxx of putting the concern out there in a meaningful, yet mindful way.
I never played Dungeons and Dragons.
...You see, that is the problem right there.
Noone is saying we are not welcoming you players into the fold. Actually, the contrary is true. We are glad to have you along. Us long in the tooth D&D'ers love opening this world to more and more players.
But these players need to come in with an open mind, and understand Dungeons and Dragons is not your cookie cutter MMO your so used to playing and PvP'ing in.
That has never been the mentality of Gary Gygax, TSR, WoTC, et al...
Dungeons and Dragons was not built off a party getting together then killing each other. Dungeons and Dragons was and is being built off of a world of fantasy, imagination, creativity, working together, camaraderie, companionship, puzzle solving, and creative thinking.
It never was hack and slash.
Worlds have been built inside the minds of children just grabbing that dice for the first time, that teenager who gets together with his friends for a weekend foray into the Mists of Ravenloft, and those men who get together for a nightly trip into the maze of controversy in the City of Sigil...
Us PvE'ers of the world we helped build with decades of loyalty are willing to bring you all in and experience the mysicism that we have grown so fondly into over the years...
But you PvP'ers have to come in with a open mind and not be so god **** stubborn thinking you can just have everything your way and **** all who oppose you or TRY to inform you that's not how things work in Faerun, Oerth, or Ravenloft...
You call people trolls when they disagree with you, telling you 40 years of D&D never EVER has been PvP...
You get mad and defensive if you cant have it your way.
Us DnD'ers over the years have had plenty of things not go our way, and we adapted... Did we show up at a ComicCon with a AR 15 and demand Vorpal Swords drop off Kobolds ?
You want PvP...fine we get it...
But this is Dungeons and Dragons.... and the world has not even been built yet.... things come in time... Noone is saying you cannot or will not have your PvP...
But Dungeons and Dragons is not your PvP game... This is what we have been trying to tell you... The game is being " Bent " to allow your PvP... and when the time comes when classes have been introduced and the world has been revealed.... you will find your PvP MUCH, MUCH more endearing...
I HIGHLY doubt this game will go away any time soon.... this is Faerun... and Faerun is older than some of you...
Some of us have been waiting DECADES to actually visually step foot into this world of magic and lore and try to leave our mark..
You want your PvP... fine.. but we want our world of imagination as well....
Thats about as simple and decent as I can put it..
We are waiting for our world and being patient....
Take a breath, relax, have a coke... Good things come to those who wait.
Thank you, that was a lovely post.
That would be an assumption that is, I'm sure, incorrect in many cases. DnD has changed so dramatically over the years that it's even hard to talk of DnD as if it was one system. You have a very narrow, close-minded view, and while I respect that, it isn't the only valid take on the issue. Putting down people who disagree with you is not making your argument stronger. You cannot bully people into agreement.
I feel that you, for some reason, try very hard to polarize. Speaking for the "we", when really, you only speak for yourself and a handful of like-minded people (I want to say "zealots", but really, this isn't a mudslinging contest and there's nothing to gain from one). Referring to everyone else as "them", the enemy, those who have a different view, throwing them all in one box. Moderate views are possible, embracing both sides is do-able, and showing tolerance is not shameful, you know. There are more colors than black and white, and there is more middle ground than there are borders.
You see something in Neverwinter that I don't see. You seem convinced that it is different from other MMOs and Action RPGs, which in my view it simply isn't. It uses the same mechanics and design elements found in other MMOs and CRPGs, past and present, and the one thing that really, on a fundamental level, distinguishes it from other MMOs with a fantasy setting is the Foundry. The combat is also noticeably better, but it's a combination of Diablo and Tera, at the core. But most everything else? Same mechanics, same designs, same quest styles (fetch this, kill that, go there, come back). If you have played any number of ARPGs or MMORPGs, this is plainly obvious.
So, I feel you glorify the game and see it as something that it isn't, and thus defend it as if it was your newborn and someone else tried to steal it from you. It is a great game, and I plan to play it for absurd amounts of time and keep putting money into it, but it is almost certain to disappoint you if you expect it to be this unique experience that trumps everything else and somehow gives you this completely free "make it your own" kind of world you can shape. You can't. It's a traditional MMO with instanced areas, it's an action-RPG, it's a fast-paced dungeon crawler.
What you want is something like Ultima Online in 1997, with player housing, player-run cities, player-run events, no game-provided quests, not even levels or artificial goals beyond those you set for yourself. I loved UO, for these reasons, and I miss it dearly and know that it won't ever return because times have moved on. It was more than a game. Neverwinter, however, is "just" a game. An excellent game, an innovative game (Foundry), but it's not your childhood dreams of a DnD Narnia coming true. If you expect this of it, I feel you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
PvP is a basic component that every modern MMORPG features. For good reason: It's popular, it is cheap (provides a lot of content without needing much resources and constantly new artwork), it's diverse, it's always fresh. As mentioned by Argantis, there is a reason why most of the high progression, high pop servers in WoW are PvP ones. In fact, PvP servers usually have the best PvE progression, too.
Neverwinter needs this, too, because bluntly put, a small group of purist DnD fans who look down at anyone else who doesn't treat a RPG framework like a religion is not enough to make a MMO of this size and of this scope financially viable. WotC know this, too, which is why they approved PvP for this game. And WotC is DnD, unlike you. They apparently think PvP does belong into a DnD game, and here we are: PvP in Neverwinter.
I really don't understand the strong feelings against PvP or people who frequently or occasionally enjoy battling other players and seeing where they stand, skill-wise. PvP is a fantastic way to make you a better, more skilled player. There is also nothing that somehow makes PvP the opposite of RP. In UO, back in 1997, I had a purely roleplayed character, and bounty hunting was part of her background. RP and PvP go perfectly well together, as do PvE and PvP. They are not mutually exclusive in any way.
So, just live and let live. PvP is in the game, it doesn't go anywhere, and both playstyles can co-exist. Most people will not just do one thing anyway. My focus is on PvE, but I will also do PvP when I feel like it. I'm sure this applies to plenty of folks.
Anyway i hope Neverwinter stays true to the DnD world and not mess everything up in order to please pvp lovers. This is not and never has been a pvp game.
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typos, Im too tired.
UO was amazing, too bad Toril killed it.
Like, one group has stolen something and the other must collect it. There's pve elements in there for both then you end up encountering at certain points. Depending how the fight goes, the story advances for that team and it changes for the other.
That'd be a nice change and still be quite pnp handy. The amount of times you encounter enemy parties or whatever in them tends to be really exciting.
Of course being an avid PVP'er doesn't make you automatically X-type of person. But you gotta admit there is a certain type that gravitates toward it.
And those pvpers. They are a scourge of the mmo player base. Horrible people.
In pve I have never had little Elins decked out in +12 VM gear jumping up and down in end-game dungeons demanding that I be kicked, spamming "kick, kick, kick" because I didn't have glowing gear; I have never had kills or nodes stolen, never had people maliciously following me around just to prevent me from levelling by stealing kills, never had people spamming obscenities in chat.
Nope. The pve crowd are so pure and upstanding. You will never see them trolling constructive posts about how to enhance the already great pvp in this game. They never stoop to insulting, brow-bashing, or demeaning others, or telling them to just "go play another game".
And really, the nerve of these pvpers! Trying to come to our game, our game, our game and pollute it with their dangerous and unconventional ideas. I mean this game is based on D&D. D&D! A game where there is absolutely no sense that the DM is competing against the players (such as in a game like Descent) and never has a campaign involved any fighting between players.
These pvpers just don't get it. D&D is solely a pve experience and no person that was ever involved in D&D could possibly stoop to have anything to do with pvp. That is why WotC NEVER made pvp skirmish games like D&D minis or D&D Dungeon Command, or had pvp scenarios in their D&D adventure board game series. They knew that people who love D&D would never want to have anything to do with pvp.
So fear pvp; keep your ears and eyes shut to the corrupting presence of pvpers; shun them and keep true to the fold- to the purity of D&D which can be wholly found in a pve mmo experience.
I'm telling you- give them an inch and they will take a mile; before you know it our whole game will be ruined. A single positive post about pvp threatens our very existence!
Nah, Aion always sucked. Hell, it even sucked when it was just an idea inside someone's head, except instead of someone telling "Dude, your idea sucks", he said "Yeah, let's do it" and the suck became reality.
OK! So send me my $60.00 back so I can go away #not
EDIT: I re-read the yasha post and I really believe he was just trolling PvP Haters. But the thing is already in a level it really sounded like the haters posts.